Australian Politics Forum - agnosticism vs atheism

NorthOfNorth

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #330 - Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 11:43am

muso wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 11:36am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 11:23am:

muso wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 11:15am:

Nobody has yet defined supernatural in a cognitively meaningful way

They, through the exercise of their will, can subvert any and all natural law. The long dead can be reconstituted and be resurrected, mountains and pigs can fly, the sun can be stopped in its tracks, do a loop-de-loop and move east... All by the will of gods.

Doesn't work. Forest gods can't stop the sun in its tracks. All you have given me is several examples of nonsense.

Should I say "They, through the exercise of their will, can subvert any or all natural law".

Forest gods can make trees walk, appear and disappear at their will. If they could not do that, they would not be gods.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: agnosticism vs atheism Reply #331 - Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 11:49am muso wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 11:34am: In the same way, a member of a primitive tribe which worship forest gods would be an atheist if he ceased believing in their magical powers Hmm, "magical powers". So you do in fact have a notion of what is supernatural then.
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freediver

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #332 - Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 12:12pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 11:42am:

freediver wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 11:27am:

Helian, are you merely arguing tha theism (according to the common and philosophical definitions) is irrational. Or are you arguing that it is impossible? Or are you arguing the ignositic viewpoint? You are having remarkable difficulty explaining yourself.

I am saying that it is quite acceptable for someone to believe god exists because he feels/senses it to be true. It is quite rational for another not to believe him when he says "god exists (independently of my mind) but I am unable to prove it.".

Just as I suspected. You are having such trouble making your point because you keep avoiding it.

freediver wrote on Mar 25^th, 2010 at 8:06pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 24^th, 2010 at 10:17pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 24^th, 2010 at 9:54pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 21^st, 2010 at 12:00pm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Atheism is commonly defined as the position that there are no deities.

Ah, wikipedia.

http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism

Atheism, as defined by the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, and other philosophy reference works, is the denial of the existence of God.[1][2][3]

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #333 - Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 12:28pm

Atheism is disbelieving the proposition that god exists. Nothing more.

Disbelieving is not attributively the same as believing or the believing-in or the having-faith-in.

It is therefore not required of the "atheist" to prove the thing in which he disbelieves as he is not proposing, or believing-in, or having-faith-in the existence of anything in particular.

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Soren

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #334 - Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 12:56pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 11:33am:

Do you actually mean to tell me that Fred Hollows did not take on a personal burden for the 'greater good'? That he was not driven to a saintly life?

yes, I do you actually mean to tell you that Fred Hollows did not take on a personal burden for the 'greater good' becuase of his rejection of the idea of god.

The point I was making was about motivation, not just moral action. The point is that atheism is not a motivator for moral action.
"There is no god, therefore I will do good" does not follow. Atheism does not have an inherent moral dimention like theism.

Western atheism borrows morality from the Judeo-Christian theism it rejects. Secularism is a good example of this.

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« Last Edit: Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 2:56pm by Soren »

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #335 - Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 1:08pm

Soren wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 12:56pm:

yes, I do you actually mean to tell you that Fred Hollows did not take on a personal burden for the 'greater good' becuase of his rejection of the idea of god.

The point I was making was about motivation, not just moral action. The point is that atheism is not a motivator for moral action.
"There is no god, therefore I will do good" does not follow. Atheism does not have an inherent moral dimention like theism.

Western atheism borrows morality from the Judeo-Christian atheism it rejects. Secularism is a good example of this.

"There is a god, therefore I will do good" does not necessarily follow either. Many would be inclined to say (privately, I'm sure) "There is a god, maybe I should do good, but its too fvckin hard, cos I like doing evil more than I like doing good".

I would suggest that the motivator for moral action is an innate and well-developed sense of empathy which some may attribute to belief in god, but it is clearly not a sine-qua-non for motivation to moral action.

People attribute all kinds of things as the motivation of/cause for who they are. Centenarians, when asked how it is they lived as long as they did, will attribute it to a plethora of life habits - from not worrying much to drinking a glass of port every day to any number of other things.

Ask an optimistic/pessimistic person how they came to feel so optimistic/pessimistic... Some will give you a list of personal traits (some will even include belief in god), while others will scratch their heads, shrug their shoulders and say "Dunno... I was born that way, I guess".

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« Last Edit: Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 2:04pm by NorthOfNorth »

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: agnosticism vs atheism Reply #336 - Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 1:14pm Soren wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 12:56pm: Western atheism borrows morality from the Judeo-Christian atheism it rejects. Secularism is a good example of this. Secularism is not a moral code in itself and arose despite Christianity not because of it. "Judeo-Christian atheism" - And the sophistry continues.
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mozzaok

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #337 - Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 1:38pm

I have to conclude from observing these exchanges that people trying to misrepresent what atheism is, are being deliberately, and consciously deceitful.

Like all theists, there desire for truth is as limited as their respect for it.

But it matters not, because they are not perfect, just forgiven. Roll Eyes

We have seen dictionary definitions, rejected by them, we have seen the literal meaning derived from the origin of the word, rejected by them, and we have had the direct testimony from atheists of what the word means to them, rejected by them.
So we end up with an ignorant, bloody minded theist flatly rejecting all rational evidence, because he wants to be able to say atheism is irrational.

Now that will only make sense to theists.

Obviously the poor dears have felt the sting of trying to defend irrational beliefs in the past, and so are merely seeking to share their pain.

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« Last Edit: Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 1:58pm by mozzaok »

OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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Soren

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #338 - Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 2:57pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 1:14pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 12:56pm:

Western atheism borrows morality from the Judeo-Christian atheism it rejects. Secularism is a good example of this.

Secularism is not a moral code in itself and arose despite Christianity not because of it.

"Judeo-Christian atheism" - And the sophistry continues.

Sorry, typo.

Western atheism borrows morality from the Judeo-Christian theism it rejects. Secularism is a good example of this.

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Soren

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #339 - Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 5:04pm

mozzaok wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 1:38pm:

I have to conclude from observing these exchanges that people trying to misrepresent what atheism is, are being deliberately, and consciously deceitful.

That's exactly what you said about climate scepticism. You have a bit a commissar/ubersturmfuhrer in you, Mozz. You can't deal with dissent, except as betrayal.

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tallowood

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #340 - Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 5:39pm

Paella wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 12:20am:

freediver wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 12:08am:

If they are agnostic, call them agnostic. If they are atheists, call them atheists. If it's a spade, call it a spade.

Agreed. Einstein was an atheist. Call him an atheist. Dawkins is an atheist. Call him an atheist. I am an atheist. Call me an atheist.

And again, you can call me old fashioned as well, if you like.

Einstein was not an atheist he was too intelligent for that. That is what he wrote about atheists:

Quote:

Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is of the same kind as the intolerance of the religious fanatics and comes from the same source. They are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional "opium of the people"—cannot bear the music of the spheres. The Wonder of nature does not become smaller because one cannot measure it by the standards of human moral and human aims.

(c) Einstein to an unidentified adressee, Aug.7, 1941. Einstein Archive, reel 54-927

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muso

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #341 - Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 7:04pm

Soren wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 12:56pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 11:33am:

Do you actually mean to tell me that Fred Hollows did not take on a personal burden for the 'greater good'? That he was not driven to a saintly life?

yes, I do you actually mean to tell you that Fred Hollows did not take on a personal burden for the 'greater good' becuase of his rejection of the idea of god.

The point I was making was about motivation, not just moral action. The point is that atheism is not a motivator for moral action.
"There is no god, therefore I will do good" does not follow. Atheism does not have an inherent moral dimention like theism.

Western atheism borrows morality from the Judeo-Christian theism it rejects. Secularism is a good example of this.

The only part I disagree with is the last part. Atheism per se doesn't have any kind of morality associated with it at all any more than stamp collecting does. It's just a lack of belief in gods.

Morality, or ethical values to be more accurate, is associated with human beings, not their beliefs, and it's pretty well widespread.

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Soren

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #342 - Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 7:12pm

muso wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 7:04pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 12:56pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 11:33am:

Do you actually mean to tell me that Fred Hollows did not take on a personal burden for the 'greater good'? That he was not driven to a saintly life?

yes, I do you actually mean to tell you that Fred Hollows did not take on a personal burden for the 'greater good' becuase of his rejection of the idea of god.

The point I was making was about motivation, not just moral action. The point is that atheism is not a motivator for moral action.
"There is no god, therefore I will do good" does not follow. Atheism does not have an inherent moral dimention like theism.

Western atheism borrows morality from the Judeo-Christian theism it rejects. Secularism is a good example of this.

The only part I disagree with is the last part. Atheism per se doesn't have any kind of morality associated with it at all any more than stamp collecting does. It's just a lack of belief in gods.

Morality, or ethical values to be more accurate, is associated with human beings, not their beliefs, and it's pretty well widespread.

This is inconsistent.

Atheism does retain the moral framework Christianity has developed, and rejects the god-notion only and the ethical commands that are explicitly formulated as 'god told me to do it' ethical values (Helia's pork).

All the cherished notions of secular humanism are expliitly Christian.

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muso

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Re: agnosticism vs atheism
Reply #343 - Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 7:13pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 11:49am:

muso wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 11:34am:

In the same way, a member of a primitive tribe which worship forest gods would be an atheist if he ceased believing in their magical powers

Hmm, "magical powers".

So you do in fact have a notion of what is supernatural then. Wink

OK, but it's totally random. There is no consistency in what's referred to as the Supernatural. It's made up as they go along based on ancient and modern superstitions. You just can't make any sense out of it.

I understand what the beliefs are but there is no rhyme nor reason to them.

Apart from tradition, there is nothing to separate Supernatural from Superstition or from nonsensical ideas.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: agnosticism vs atheism Reply #344 - Apr 2^nd, 2010 at 7:13pm Secularism... "Render unto Caesar that which is his" Oh and I'm pretty sure not all Gods are benevolent.
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