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Climate change is natural... (Read 10680 times)
mozzaok
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Re: Climate change is natural...
Reply #60 - Dec 11th, 2009 at 8:10pm
 
We never said that loonies are not allowed to believe climate change.

We just said ONLY loonies don't. Wink
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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
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muso
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Re: Climate change is natural...
Reply #61 - Dec 11th, 2009 at 8:38pm
 
Soren wrote on Dec 11th, 2009 at 7:59pm:


Sigh. The thing is that the poorer countries don't really make one iota of difference. The entire power generation capability of Chad for example would hardly power a small outback town in Australia.

They should keep the question of aid to poor countries out of it, if you ask me.
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Soren
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Re: Climate change is natural...
Reply #62 - Dec 11th, 2009 at 8:47pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Dec 11th, 2009 at 8:10pm:
... to believe ...



Thank you, Sigmund.
Wink
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Soren
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Re: Climate change is natural...
Reply #63 - Dec 12th, 2009 at 8:00am
 
muso wrote on Dec 11th, 2009 at 8:38pm:
Soren wrote on Dec 11th, 2009 at 7:59pm:


Sigh. The thing is that the poorer countries don't really make one iota of difference. The entire power generation capability of Chad for example would hardly power a small outback town in Australia.

They should keep the question of aid to poor countries out of it, if you ask me.


How is it climate justice if you keep the poor countries out of it? They have twigged onto he significance of AGW and are demanding action in the form of a large sum of money from you. How can you say no, you heartless carbon colonialst?

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muso
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Re: Climate change is natural...
Reply #64 - Dec 12th, 2009 at 8:22am
 
If you think I approve of paying huge sums of money to China to reduce emissions, then think again.

Talk about hijacking a cause.  Roll Eyes

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,26475380-5003402,00.html

Quote:
Australia is planning to meet its target partly by paying poor countries to reduce their emissions, and counting the savings against its own target.



Idiots!  Angry

Heartless? Maybe. We need to be ruthless at least. Forget the developing countries and let China do the responsible thing themselves. Instead of paying them money, we should be selling them technology for new Solar power stations, which we should building here in Australia.
http://www.csiro.au/org/Solar-Research.html

I think we need to think with a cold mind on this subject. The objective is to minimise the carbon dioxide being introduced into the atmosphere. The only sure way to do that is to build renewable energy projects. Forget about massive tree planting schemes, because the way things are going at the moment those forests may well end up being a carbon source (as opposed to a carbons sink)  by 2050 anyway.

Do I trust the ALP? No!!!!?
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« Last Edit: Dec 12th, 2009 at 8:34am by muso »  

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mantra
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Re: Climate change is natural...
Reply #65 - Dec 12th, 2009 at 8:35am
 
Quote:
Heartless? Maybe. Forget the developing countries and let China do the responsible thing themselves.  

I think we need to think with a cold mind on this subject. The objective is to minimise the carbon dioxide being introduced into the atmosphere. The only sure way to do that is to build renewable energy projects. Forget about massive tree planting schemes, because the way things are going at the moment those forests may well end up being a carbon source (as opposed to a carbons sink)  by 2050 anyway.


Yes Muso - it all sounds very good in theory, but the developing countries are being bribed into signing this Treaty obviously because they're hoping for large amounts of cash.

Seriously - do you really believe this rubbish?

It includes a commitment to limit warming to 2 degrees Celsius and - in brackets to acknowledge it is not yet fully agreed - the proposition that global emissions should peak in 2020.

Quote:
UNDERLYING tensions between rich and poor nations at the Copenhagen climate negotiations have boiled to the surface with the leaking of a "secret" draft agreement prepared by the Danish host government and a select "circle of commitment" including Kevin Rudd.

The leaked document rocked the United Nations conference as it settled down to its first full day of talks, with developing countries expressing outrage at its contents, and at the fact that it had been developed behind closed doors by the so-called “friends” of the Danish conference chair, Mr Rudd, UN secretary Ban Ki Moon and leaders from other countries including the UK, Sweden, Mexico.

The Danish Government protested that there was no “secret draft for a new Copenhagen Agreement” but rather “many working papers used for testing various positions”.

Privately negotiators were furious that developing nations had resorted to such a “hostile act” because they were nervous about possible outcomes in a final climate deal.

But despite the hosts' attempts to hose down the leak, it has ignited tensions that were not expected to spark until the top-level leaders segment of the talks next week.

Despite all the controversy, the draft “Copenhagen Agreement” contains many elements of a strong political deal, although it leaves blank critical emission reduction commitments and the amounts to be paid into new funding for developing countries for final determination.

It includes a commitment to limit warming to 2 degrees Celsius and - in brackets to acknowledge it is not yet fully agreed - the proposition that global emissions should peak in 2020.

But developing countries and conservationists were deeply concerned that it did not set a timetable for a final binding agreement, nor specify that such an agreement should be in the form of a legally binding treaty, nor propose a future role for the existing Kyoto Protocol.

Environment groups joined in the condemnation, with the WWF fuming that the “behind the scenes negotiations have been focussing on pleasing the rich and powerful countries rather than serving the majority of states who are demanding a fair and ambitious solution”.


Oxfam climate adviser Antonio Hill said “like ants in a room full of elephants poor countries are at risk of been squeezed out of the climate talks in Copenhagen. As the talks ramp up and the big players put forward their proposals for the deal it is vitally important that vulnerable countries are part of the debate.”


... 5808471132
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muso
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Re: Climate change is natural...
Reply #66 - Dec 12th, 2009 at 8:49am
 
Mantra,

If we need to do anything urgently, it is to keep the atmospheric CO2 concentration below about 450ppm by whatever means we can.

Forget about global warming. The CO2 is increasing by about 2ppm every year. It should come as no surprise where that's coming from. Simple maths can tell us that. Even simpler maths (450 - 387)/2 gives us the number of years, and shows us that at current levels of emission, we'll be at 450 ppm before 2050.

Laboratory tests using that kind of atmosphere equilibrated with sea water shows that corals can't grow fast enough to keep up with erosion when that happens. There are a whole lot of other effects that will cause major problems in the ocean. Unless we do something, the once blue ocean will be a heaving evil smelling mass that can support no complex life, possibly as soon as the end of this century.

As far as sea level change is concerned, I think you might just be able to out-walk it, even if you're wheelchair bound Smiley  

There are other major implications of course. If temperatures go much above the 2 degree guardrail, most of the foodcrops, particularly rice, will have a rapid and spectacularly diminishing yield.

Then there is the water situation. As glaciers continue to melt, there will be vast populations without access to water supplies. Already China is planning some huge dams to catch as much water as possible.  Other neighboring countries might object to them hogging the water - don't you think?

The 2 degree guardrail is based on risk minimisation. My personal opinion is that it's probably to late to achieve that, but we need to do everything possible.
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« Last Edit: Dec 12th, 2009 at 9:52am by muso »  

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Soren
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Re: Climate change is natural...
Reply #67 - Dec 12th, 2009 at 9:00am
 
muso wrote on Dec 12th, 2009 at 8:22am:
If you think I approve of paying huge sums of money to China to reduce emissions, then think again.

Talk about hijacking a cause.  Roll Eyes

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,26475380-5003402,00.html

Quote:
Australia is planning to meet its target partly by paying poor countries to reduce their emissions, and counting the savings against its own target.



Idiots!  Angry

Heartless? Maybe. We need to be ruthless at least. Forget the developing countries and let China do the responsible thing themselves. Instead of paying them money, we should be selling them technology for new Solar power stations, which we should building here in Australia.
http://www.csiro.au/org/Solar-Research.html

I think we need to think with a cold mind on this subject. The objective is to minimise the carbon dioxide being introduced into the atmosphere. The only sure way to do that is to build renewable energy projects. Forget about massive tree planting schemes, because the way things are going at the moment those forests may well end up being a carbon source (as opposed to a carbons sink)  by 2050 anyway.

Do I trust the ALP? No!!!!?



Looks like you warmerists have created a monster you cannot control. It will take the growing army of bloodsucking evil denialists to come to your rescue and save you from the unintended consequences of your folly.

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muso
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Re: Climate change is natural...
Reply #68 - Dec 12th, 2009 at 9:07am
 
Soren wrote on Dec 12th, 2009 at 9:00am:
Looks like you warmerists have created a monster you cannot control. It will take the growing army of bloodsucking evil denialists to come to your rescue and save you from the unintended consequences of your folly.



Soren, If we had a global nuclear war, that might actually have the effect of stopping global warming too. Whether more people might survive 1. a nuclear war or 2. our continued practice of burning fossil fuels remains to be seen.

Of course we might end up with both yet.  Wink

At what stage in the world's deteriorating climatic condition will you actually admit that we are having an effect. Will the demise of the Great Barrier Reef be enough? You'll have to survive another 40 years at least to see that.
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Soren
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Re: Climate change is natural...
Reply #69 - Dec 12th, 2009 at 9:17am
 
muso wrote on Dec 12th, 2009 at 9:07am:
At what stage in the world's deteriorating climatic condition will you actually admit that we are having an effect. Will the demise of the Great Barrier Reef be enough? You'll have to survive another 40 years at least to see that.


That's just it. The world climate conditions are not deteriorating.
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muso
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Re: Climate change is natural...
Reply #70 - Dec 12th, 2009 at 9:48am
 
Soren wrote on Dec 12th, 2009 at 9:17am:
muso wrote on Dec 12th, 2009 at 9:07am:
At what stage in the world's deteriorating climatic condition will you actually admit that we are having an effect. Will the demise of the Great Barrier Reef be enough? You'll have to survive another 40 years at least to see that.


That's just it. The world climate conditions are not deteriorating.


In that context, I was talking about ocean acidification. In terms of actual climate, there are some worrying trends, but so far we haven't got to the stage where there is anything more than a subtle effect.  

I did not imply that we had reached the stage where there was a marked deterioration yet. I just mean to ask you at what stage in the (future) deteriorating climate would you be satisfied that it was a genuine effect?

Good. Now that the circus has gone, we might be able to get down to more serious discussions.
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Soren
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Re: Climate change is natural...
Reply #71 - Dec 12th, 2009 at 10:13am
 
muso wrote on Dec 12th, 2009 at 9:48am:
Soren wrote on Dec 12th, 2009 at 9:17am:
muso wrote on Dec 12th, 2009 at 9:07am:
At what stage in the world's deteriorating climatic condition will you actually admit that we are having an effect. Will the demise of the Great Barrier Reef be enough? You'll have to survive another 40 years at least to see that.


That's just it. The world climate conditions are not deteriorating.


In that context, I was talking about ocean acidification. In terms of actual climate, there are some worrying trends, but so far we haven't got to the stage where there is anything more than a subtle effect.  

I did not imply that we had reached the stage where there was a marked deterioration yet. I just mean to ask you at what stage in the (future) deteriorating climate would you be satisfied that it was a genuine effect?

Good. Now that the circus has gone, we might be able to get down to more serious discussions.


You say 'worrying trend' once more ...!!! Roll Eyes

Stop using climate change and antropogenic climate change (ACC) as interchangable concepts. My whole point, in every ost, is that theyare not interchangable. Ever evil denialist freaks' central point is that they are not interchangable.

Climate change - out of our hands. Adaptation is the only possible answer. We are good at that. Antropogenic climate change - I don't accept it. To me, it is a conceptual impossibility. It is helpful that there is no scientific or any other compelling evidence for ACC.


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muso
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Re: Climate change is natural...
Reply #72 - Dec 12th, 2009 at 10:53am
 
So I noticed that you remained silent on ocean acidification (or pH reduction). That's a pretty direct mechanism, and you'd have to be pretty ingrown not be acknowledge that as a problem.

Where do you stand on that? It is possibly the most serious problem as far as I'm concerned, and it's not related to the 'warming' effect of CO2 in any significant way.

I'm interested to see if you reject all science, or just science that happens to be politically inopportune.

I'll get back to Climate change in a moment.
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Re: Climate change is natural...
Reply #73 - Dec 12th, 2009 at 11:53am
 
There is 20 times as much CO2 in the oceans than in the atmosphere. What CO2 there is in the atmosphere is a trace gas, even after 200 years of industrialisation. Since the atmosphere is not the main source of CO2 in the oceans, I would look at the main sources of oceanic CO2 for 'worrying trends' of acidification.
Just looking at the earth's surface - not the depth of the oceans - 70% is oceans, 30 % land. That's an awful lot of water (and not a drop to drink) to go all wobbly because of a trace gas in the air.

Just because there is movement between atmospheric and oceanic CO2, it does not mean that whatevever acidification may be happening must be because of this movement.

Is that naive/vicious/irresponsible enough?



PS
Personally, I suspect it must be the smacking whales, the goats of the oceans, clean grazing all the little organisms that would be eating up all that CO2 producing dead algea. It's the whales that are causing oceanic desertification. Wink If you look at the graphs, oceanic CO2 levels tarted to shoot up around the time whaling was banned.
But I'm not a scientist so this is only a hunch...
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muso
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Re: Climate change is natural...
Reply #74 - Dec 12th, 2009 at 1:53pm
 
Soren wrote on Dec 12th, 2009 at 11:53am:
There is 20 times as much CO2 in the oceans than in the atmosphere. What CO2 there is in the atmosphere is a trace gas, even after 200 years of industrialisation. Since the atmosphere is not the main source of CO2 in the oceans, I would look at the main sources of oceanic CO2 for 'worrying trends' of acidification.
Just looking at the earth's surface - not the depth of the oceans - 70% is oceans, 30 % land. That's an awful lot of water (and not a drop to drink) to go all wobbly because of a trace gas in the air.

Just because there is movement between atmospheric and oceanic CO2, it does not mean that whatevever acidification may be happening must be because of this movement.

Is that naive/vicious/irresponsible enough?



No - I'd rate it as obtuse. Possibly deliberately obtuse, but for the sake of trying to keep things civil, I'll bite my tounge and not say what immediately comes to mind(YFI), because you probably read it somewhere on the great blogosphere and have taken it for granted.

I sometimes wonder whether you are simply baiting. This is basic chemistry, Soren. You got that 20 times figure from somewhere - I'm not sure where, but it's actually more like 93% in the oceans expressed as carbon. (If you got it from Grendel, I hope you disinfected it first. I suspect I know where he gets his information)

There is an equibrium between CO2 in the oceans and in the atmosphere. If you increase the temperature or reduce the pressure, the CO2 will start to be desorbed from the ocean.

It's a bit like adding CO2 to water from a CO2 cylinder (you know the ones you use to make soda water that you drink with your single malt? When you release the pressure, the CO2 comes out of solution.

Well of course you find more CO2 (or carbonate/bicarbonates) in seawater than in the atmosphere.  It's a consequence of the fact that CO2 forms carbonates and bicarbonates when you dissolve it in water.

THere is a close relationship between ocean pH and atmospheric carbon dioxide. Is there any point in talking about the chemistry?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/10/ocean-acidification-epoca
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