Australian Politics Forum - Britons unhappy, lonely and unable to cope, study

Yadda

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Re: Britons unhappy, lonely and unable to cope, study
Reply #45 - Dec 13^th, 2009 at 10:34am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 6:08pm:

Quote:

We have only today helian, and our experience.

And facts...
and evidence, there Yadda... or in this case, the yawning lack thereof.

helian,

Your position, or rather the 'philosophical' position of 'humanists', is that we humans have built up a huge source of knowledge, knowledge about ourselves, and knowledge about the 'universe' we inhabit.

And, that we have come such a long way!

My position is that we, really, really, know so little, still, about ourselves and our 'environment'.

e.g.
What do we really know, about time, relativity, quantum mechanics?

All of our [collective] knowledge is based on our [individual] experience.

Don't you see, can't you acknowledge, that all of our [individual] experience is incredibly limited?

Yet humanists [and 'scientists'] are so, so, certain, that reality is confined within what they can see, and touch, and measure.

LOL, LOL, LOL.

Yadda says, How arrogant is a position, a perception of reality, such as that! Grin

+++++++

Time for more thou, and thy, and thee, Grin

Ecclesiastes 1:2
Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

Romans 1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
17 For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
18 I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
21 There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Britons unhappy, lonely and unable to cope, study
Reply #46 - Dec 13^th, 2009 at 10:48am

Amadd wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 4:28am:

Quote:

Seriously, i don't believe that the nature of man has changed, in thousands of years.

I must agree that if there have been changes in human nature, then they have been miniscule.
Therineth, there hath been noeth changeth to human natureth due to the bibleth.

The Bibleth affect differenteth people in differenteth ways.

Some hateth it.

Some loveth it.

And some, even openeth its pages and readeth it! Tongue

Quote:

Maybe indeed it would've been more productive to have had a few nukes let off in biblical times to fast-track an education.
The "do as I say, and not as I do" mentality has never worked very well.
Even if somebody can vividly imagine the fictional (perfect being) Christ character, they are more proned to take on the attributes of the real people around them.
Yes I think that stories that are displayed as being fictional and only to focus upon the realities within can have more of an impact than stories that leave you wondering if the author is being less than honest.
Biblical stories sure do have some meaning to them, but it's doubtful that they are a true representation of history.

We all choose for ourselves, from our life experiences, what to believe.

I don't see anything wrong with that outcome.

It sounds very logical to me, ....that we should be 'formed' by our experiences.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Britons unhappy, lonely and unable to cope, study
Reply #47 - Dec 13^th, 2009 at 11:17am

Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 10:48am:

We all choose for ourselves, from our life experiences, what to believe.

I don't see anything wrong with that outcome.

It sounds very logical to me, ....that we should be 'formed' by our experiences.

Hardly honest Yadda. You're implying you'd choose to believe something whether or not your better judgement determined it was a lie... Never mind that often truth is counter-intuitive.

Do you believe that the earth is flat because it appears that way?

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Yadda

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Re: Britons unhappy, lonely and unable to cope, study
Reply #48 - Dec 13^th, 2009 at 11:51am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 11:17am:

Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 10:48am:

We all choose for ourselves, from our life experiences, what to believe.

I don't see anything wrong with that outcome.

It sounds very logical to me, ....that we should be 'formed' by our experiences.

Hardly honest Yadda. You're implying you'd choose to believe something whether or not your better judgement determined it was a lie... Never mind that often truth is counter-intuitive.

Do you believe that the earth is flat because it appears that way?

LOL.

Surely helian, you are proving my argument, for me?

Q.
Was it irrational, for men to believe, years ago, that the earth was flat?

When their [at that time] limited and [individual] 'experience' of the earth, logically seemed to imply, that the earth was flat???

A.
No.

We must accept as true, what our senses tell us.

That is only logical.

But, to then, say that we will only accept as true, what our senses [seem to] tell us?????

Is that entirely logical?

e.g.
I cannot see, or feel, radio waves.

Should i therefore, disbelieve in their existence???

++++++++

Isaiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;.....

Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Britons unhappy, lonely and unable to cope, study
Reply #49 - Dec 13^th, 2009 at 12:56pm

Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 11:51am:

LOL.

Surely helian, you are proving my argument, for me?

Q.
Was it irrational, for men to believe, years ago, that the earth was flat?

When their [at that time] limited and [individual] 'experience' of the earth, logically seemed to imply, that the earth was flat???

A.
No.

We must accept as true, what our senses tell us.

That is only logical.

But, to then, say that we will only accept as true, what our senses [seem to] tell us?????

Is that entirely logical?

e.g.
I cannot see, or feel, radio waves.

Should i therefore, disbelieve in their existence???

No, you have missed the point entirely.

Why do you choose to believe radio waves exist? Evidence?

If you choose to believe in the existence of god's will, then you are choosing to believe in the irrational because it gives you comfort... The alternative would cause you existential angst so you choose to disregard the likelihood of a godless universe.

In other words its fear that drives your choice not logic.

Is it honest to believe something to be true because the alternative frightens you?

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Yadda

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Re: Britons unhappy, lonely and unable to cope, study
Reply #50 - Dec 13^th, 2009 at 1:36pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 12:56pm:

.....you have missed the point entirely.

Why do you choose to believe radio waves exist? Evidence?

I base my belief in the existence of radio waves, on their existence being explained to my comprehension using objective truth.

I am a rationalist.

I am happy to acknowledge truth, where truth is apparent to me.

Quote:

If you choose to believe in the existence of god's will, then you are choosing to believe in the irrational
because it gives you comfort... The alternative would cause you existential angst so you choose to disregard the likelihood of a godless universe.

In other words its fear that drives your choice not logic.

Is it honest to believe something to be true because the alternative frightens you?

helian,

What you are stating [as fact!], is that YOUR reality, is 'clearly' the only valid understanding of reality. see below, ##1

And in asserting such a reality, you are demonstrating, and proving that your belief is FUNDAMENTALIST in character. Grin

Whereas, i clearly live in a larger 'world' than yourself. Tongue

Dictionary,

fundamentalism = =
1 a form of Protestant Christianity which upholds belief in the strict and literal interpretation of the Bible.
2 the strict maintenance of the ancient or fundamental doctrines of any religion or ideology.

##1
i.e.
If others reject your comprehension of 'reality', you believe that its probably because those 'others' are mistaken, or rejecting a truth that has been 'revealed' to you.

But helian, weren't you ever a child???

And didn't your comprehension of reality, then, reflect your limited childhood outlook and comprehension???

AND, what makes you think that you are an adult, already!! Wink

helian,

FACT, we are NOT
adults.

We only 'believe' that we are.

The truth is, we are all, still just children.

And we still, have much to learn!

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Britons unhappy, lonely and unable to cope, study
Reply #51 - Dec 13^th, 2009 at 1:48pm

The reason you believe radio waves exist is not the same standard of reasoning that you apply to belief in god.

I'd suggest that if your fear of a godless universe abated, so would your absolute need to believe that god exists.

It would be much harder to deny the existence of radio waves regardless of how you felt about them.

Adults / children... Avoid rhetorical sophistry, Yadda.

Adults are not children. And being an adult does not imply an inability to learn or no need to learn.

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Yadda

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Re: Britons unhappy, lonely and unable to cope, study
Reply #52 - Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:04pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 1:48pm:

The reason you believe radio waves exist is not the same standard of reasoning that you apply to belief in god.

Oh, yes it is!

But it is a truth that i can't produce my evidence, to this world.

Quote:

I'd suggest that if your fear of a godless universe abated, so would your absolute need to believe that god exists.

My belief in God's existence is not based on fear, of what is not there.

My belief in God's existence is based on experience.

Quote:

It would be much harder to deny the existence of radio waves regardless of how you felt about them.

Adults / children... Avoid rhetorical sophistry, Yadda.

Adults are not children.
And being an adult does not imply an inability to learn or no need to learn.

Well, that is your perception.

But it is not mine.

'.....being an adult does not imply an inability to learn....'

And human history bears out that 'truth' !

Doesn't it!!
/sarc off Grin

Google,
none so blind as those
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=none+so+blind+as+those&btnG=Search&meta=...

Grin

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Britons unhappy, lonely and unable to cope, study
Reply #53 - Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:32pm

Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:04pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 1:48pm:

The reason you believe radio waves exist is not the same standard of reasoning that you apply to belief in god.

Oh, yes it is!

But it is a truth that i can't produce my evidence, to this world.

Quote:

I'd suggest that if your fear of a godless universe abated, so would your absolute need to believe that god exists.

My belief in God's existence is not based on fear, of what is not there.

My belief in God's existence is based on experience.

Yadda said elsewhere,

Quote:

Hi Amadd,

Atheists are realists.....

.....whereas, religious people are people who believe in faerie tales?

........
........
But additionally, let me ask you this Q.

Does the experience of a[nother] person become [in fact] invalid, because YOU have not shared such an experience?

What is YOUR answer to that question?

All Aboard the Athiest bus ..

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225016818/10#10

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Britons unhappy, lonely and unable to cope, study
Reply #54 - Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:42pm

Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:04pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 1:48pm:

The reason you believe radio waves exist is not the same standard of reasoning that you apply to belief in god.

Oh, yes it is!

But it is a truth that i can't produce my evidence, to this world.

Then its not the same standard.

Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:04pm:

Quote:

'.....being an adult does not imply an inability to learn....'

And human history bears out that 'truth' !

Doesn't it!!

Yes, of course it does. Are you saying it's not in your experience to meet adults who can learn? Gee you're even more isolated than I thought. Do you ever leave the house? Does the phone ever ring?

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Yadda

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Re: Britons unhappy, lonely and unable to cope, study
Reply #55 - Dec 13^th, 2009 at 3:03pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:42pm:

Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:04pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 1:48pm:

The reason you believe radio waves exist is not the same standard of reasoning that you apply to belief in god.

Oh, yes it is!

But it is a truth that i can't produce my evidence, to this world.

Then its not the same standard.

In your head, no.

In my head, it is, for me.

But what you, and other atheists are saying is,

"I can't believe your experience, because >> i << have not experienced it."

Fair enough.

Sorta like Columbus returning to Spain from the Americas, and i'm sure that many people refused to believe, that he found a 'new world'.

Its the same concept.

'That is an absurd concept. And i didn't experience it. Therefore, it isn't, it can't, be real.'i

Quote:

Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:04pm:

Quote:

'.....being an adult does not imply an inability to learn....'

And human history bears out that 'truth' !

Doesn't it!!

Yes, of course it does. Are you saying it's not in your experience to meet adults who can learn? Gee you're even more isolated than I thought. Do you ever leave the house? Does the phone ever ring?

Yadda, the lonely, sad, hermit? Cry

helian,

Get a clue,

Read the topic title again!!!!!

LOL

And, .....does poor Yadda seem sad, lonely, and unable to cope??? Grin

+++++++

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Britons unhappy, lonely and unable to cope, study
Reply #56 - Dec 13^th, 2009 at 3:15pm

Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 3:03pm:

Then its not the same standard.

Sorta like Columbus returning to Spain from the Americas, and i'm sure that many people refused to believe, that he found a 'new world'.

Its the same concept.

'That is an absurd concept. And i didn't experience it. Therefore, it isn't, it can't, be real.'

Bad analogy. Columbus returned with evidence of his expedition, a crew who could corroborate his story in every detail and charts to demonstrate how to get back there.

Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:04pm:

Yadda, the lonely, sad, hermit? Cry

The isolation might be playing with your mind...

Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:04pm:

And, .....does poor Yadda seem sad, lonely, and unable to cope???

Pretty much. Grin

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Yadda

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Re: Britons unhappy, lonely and unable to cope, study
Reply #57 - Dec 14^th, 2009 at 8:34am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 3:15pm:

Bad analogy.
Columbus returned with evidence of his expedition, a crew who could corroborate his story in every detail and charts to demonstrate how to get back there.

Columbus return from Americas, bad analogy?

Really?

helian people HATE truth.

Do you know why people HATE truth?

My guess is that, that TRUTH challenges our world [i.e. our assumption's about the nature of truth].

And that can be 'uncomfortable' for many.

And we don't like discomfort, do we???

Here are a few more examples of truth being rejected,

Many people still believe that the NASA moon landings didn't take place?
They believe that those NASA 'moon landings' were a conspiracy of lies, and were filmed on a Hollywood set.
/sarc off

Bizarre?

And lets talk about 19 Saudis, and 9/11.
Don't ya know helian, that 9/11 was all a Mossad conducted conspiracy - against moslems.

That, is what a majority of moslems believe!
We all know that all of the Jews who worked in the WTC, stayed home that day.
/sarc off

Bizarre?

And MI5 was behind the London bombings of 7/7
Which was another conspiracy against moslems.
A non-moslem plot, that would create a backlash against the moslem community.
That, is what a majority of moslems believe!
/sarc off

Bizarre?

London bombings - 7/7

Google

London bombings - 7/7 conspiracy

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=London+bombings+-+7%2F7+conspi...

helian,

Supposedly intelligent people, living today,

with our present communications technology, can't [are unable to] believe or discern the TRUTH, of what occurs in front of their own eyes!
....let alone events which have happened 'historically', within the last ten years!

How could people in Europe in the 1490's, where communication was largely by word of mouth, be expected to believe that a Spaniard had sailed his ship passed the horizon!!, YET, he had not fallen off the edge of the world!!!

Absurd!!

After all, we all know [in 1490 AD] that the earth is flat.

Google,

none so blind as those

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=none+so+blind+as+those&btnG=Search&meta=...

Quote:

Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:04pm:

Yadda, the lonely, sad, hermit? Cry

The isolation might be playing with your mind...

Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:04pm:

And, .....does poor Yadda seem sad, lonely, and unable to cope???

Pretty much.
Grin

I'm sorry to disappoint you.

I am not a despondent, sad person.

The spirit that fills me, .....fills me with joy, and hope, and peace.

TRUTH

People in 'authority' over us, would love us to believe
that this is how we should deal with 'our demons',

Google,

beyond blue

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=beyond+blue&btnG=Google+Search...

The TRUTH is, these are real demons, which torment us!

The TRUTH is, demons fear the spirit of God!

Yadda, the happy.

Yadda, the content.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Amadd

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Re: Britons unhappy, lonely and unable to cope, study
Reply #58 - Dec 19^th, 2009 at 4:53am

Quote:

Columbus return from Americas, bad analogy?

Really?

helian people HATE truth.

Do you know why people HATE truth?

My guess is that, that TRUTH challenges our world [i.e. our assumption's about the nature of truth].

And that can be 'uncomfortable' for many.

And we don't like discomfort, do we???

It sounds to me Yadda like you are one of those people who hate truth.
How on God's own earth could you possibly defend your non-sequitor analogy?
No we don't like discomforts such as Darwin's theory of evolution do we?

And was that wrong of me (as an athiest) to use the word "God"?
Because as we all know, you have a copywrited ownership of divine instruction. Unfortunately, it's just ego driven....BS

You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the ass.

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« Last Edit: Dec 19^th, 2009 at 7:06am by Amadd »

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Yadda

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Re: Britons unhappy, lonely and unable to cope, study
Reply #59 - Dec 19^th, 2009 at 11:31pm

Amadd wrote on Dec 19^th, 2009 at 4:53am:

You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the ass.

Ouch!!!

Just kidding.

I didn't feel a thing!

Honest. Wink

Amadd,

The err, truth is, that people like yourself [Humanists, Atheists] have adopted a position, where they don't believe in anything, of consequence, imo.

Or more correctly, i should phrase that as, You can't bring yourself to believe in anything.

exploring this idea a little further,

Quote:

A very poignant question is asked by Pilate: "What is truth?".....Let us take a practical look at this subject in light of a new religious paradigm – Post Modernism.

We begin with a definition: Post-Modernism is a statement that truth is relevant. If I believe something, then my belief is true for me, but this truth need not be truth for someone else. Your belief, whatever it happens to be, is just as good as mine. It is an encouragement to believe anything you want to believe, and to accept other beliefs as valid – as valid as your own. We may informally call this, "toleration."

In essence, it is a statement that truth is defined and created by the people who believe it.

In defining spiritual truth, I myself would assume that the spiritual world exists, that it is real, and that it has specific properties and characteristics, just like the physical world in which I live. I would infer from this assumption that when two people experience a legitimate disagreement on some matter of spiritual truth (as opposed to semantic misunderstandings or poor/incomplete communication), at least one of them is wrong/inaccurate/incorrect.

.....
Academically, one must consider the possibility that the Post-Modernist is correct. However, this becomes somewhat circular. If the Post-Modernist is correct, then even those who reject Post-Modernism, as I would, are "correct," for my belief is just as valid as any other.

This implies that the concept of "correct" is meaningless. I am contradicting Post-Modernism, which says I am "correct" in contradicting it. If I am correct in saying that something is incorrect when it is actually correct, then this word "correct" is void of meaning. We could say the same thing about the word "truth," about "reality," and any other word we would like to contemplate. The approach can be applied to anything, any concept at all.

To say that two people with conflicting beliefs about the spiritual realm, or anything at all, are both entirely correct and completely valid in their beliefs is inconsistent with any sort of logic or reason. To claim that two conflicting beliefs are valid is to strip the word "valid" of its meaning. To say that two opposing ideologies are entirely true is to reject the concept of truth.

Surprisingly, Post-Modernism makes the statement that words have no meaning… that there is no reality. Post-Modernism cannot actually be contradicted, because it invalidates the concept of contradiction, reason, logic, and meaningful communication of any form. Post-Modernism cannot even make a valid statement; in Post-Modernism, statements with meaning cannot be made! Post-Modernism is, essentially, a denial of reality. It even denies itself ! How nice!

http://www.ableever.net/Apologetics/What_Is_Truth_/what_is_truth_.html

I had a good chuckle over what this guy was saying.

I think that he coulda titled it, 'Making sense, of the irrational.'
Grin

Basically, Humanists, and Atheists define 'truth' according to their very own perceptions of reality.

That is fine.

Its no different from how some scientists have chosen to define [bend!] the 'scientific process' which they undertake.

A process dependent on, and 'guided', by who is funding their scientific enterprise, and by what amount.
e.g. some unscrupulous scientists will chose to apply the 'scientific process' only to evidence which supports their funded hypothesis, while choosing to dismiss other evidence as 'inconsequential'.

The field of politics is no different.

Money 'talks'.

And truths which are 'inconvenient' are discarded, or dismissed.

Mankind has always done this.

I think it is often referred to as 'expediency' to purpose.

Dictionary,

expedient = =
1 convenient and practical although possibly improper or immoral.
2 suitable or appropriate.
· n. a means of attaining an end, especially one that is convenient but possibly improper.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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