Australian Politics Forum - Aboriginal culture

Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41834 Gender:	Re: Aboriginal culture Reply #15 - Nov 16^th, 2009 at 3:57pm my kids drew better at preschool. Much better
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Aboriginal culture Reply #16 - Nov 16^th, 2009 at 5:30pm Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 16^th, 2009 at 3:57pm: my kids drew better at preschool. Much better If you do say so yourself!
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Aboriginal culture Reply #17 - Nov 16^th, 2009 at 5:32pm
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Soren

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Re: Aboriginal culture
Reply #18 - Nov 16^th, 2009 at 7:10pm

Aboriginal Art (which may be a better title thread) is art like Egyptian hyroglyphs are art, or as the Lasceux cave paintings are art. Or as the PNG face masks (from which Picasso took some of his clues) are art. Or like an attractive wallpaper is art. That is to say, they are not art.

Burgeois patrons, paying money for Aboriginal artefacts, may declare them art (looking after their investment) but that is not sufficient.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Aboriginal culture
Reply #19 - Nov 16^th, 2009 at 8:43pm

Soren wrote on Nov 16^th, 2009 at 7:10pm:

Aboriginal Art (which may be a better title thread) is art like Egyptian hyroglyphs are art, or as the Lasceux cave paintings are art. Or as the PNG face masks (from which Picasso took some of his clues) are art. Or like an attractive wallpaper is art. That is to say, they are not art.

Burgeois patrons, paying money for Aboriginal artefacts, may declare them art (looking after their investment) but that is not sufficient.

Is Shakespeare not art?

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Soren

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Re: Aboriginal culture
Reply #20 - Nov 16^th, 2009 at 8:44pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 16^th, 2009 at 8:43pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 16^th, 2009 at 7:10pm:

Aboriginal Art (which may be a better title thread) is art like Egyptian hyroglyphs are art, or as the Lasceux cave paintings are art. Or as the PNG face masks (from which Picasso took some of his clues) are art. Or like an attractive wallpaper is art. That is to say, they are not art.

Burgeois patrons, paying money for Aboriginal artefacts, may declare them art (looking after their investment) but that is not sufficient.

Is Shakespeare not art?

It's drama, innit?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Aboriginal culture
Reply #21 - Nov 16^th, 2009 at 9:12pm

Soren wrote on Nov 16^th, 2009 at 8:44pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 16^th, 2009 at 8:43pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 16^th, 2009 at 7:10pm:

Aboriginal Art (which may be a better title thread) is art like Egyptian hyroglyphs are art, or as the Lasceux cave paintings are art. Or as the PNG face masks (from which Picasso took some of his clues) are art. Or like an attractive wallpaper is art. That is to say, they are not art.

Burgeois patrons, paying money for Aboriginal artefacts, may declare them art (looking after their investment) but that is not sufficient.

Is Shakespeare not art?

It's drama, innit?

And through their visual art the Aboriginal people transmit the drama of the dreamtime. Find an authentic traditional painting and learn how to interpret them... Like you need to do with a Dali.

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Soren

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Re: Aboriginal culture
Reply #22 - Nov 16^th, 2009 at 9:50pm

There is no Dali or any other individual behind Aboriginal or other primitive artefacts. It is precisely the individial that is missing. And not just from one or two artefacts but from the whole idea of Aboriginal 'art'. Whover the 'artists' may be, their ancestors 10000 years ago woul have done the same piece, had someone offered them whatever compensations they are getting now.
For marketing purposes they identify the producer but there is no artistic individuality. The name serves only to establish scarcity and so to drive up the price. Go to any of the Aboriginal shanty towns and camps and you will not see a single work of Aboriganal 'art' anywhere. You will find no sign of any artistic sensibility.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Aboriginal culture
Reply #23 - Nov 16^th, 2009 at 9:57pm

Soren wrote on Nov 16^th, 2009 at 9:50pm:

There is no Dali or any other individual behind Aboriginal or other primitive artefacts. It is precisely the individial that is missing. And not just from one or two artefacts but from the whole idea of Aboriginal 'art'. Whover the 'artists' may be, their ancestors 10000 years ago woul have done the same piece, had someone offered them whatever compensations they are getting now.
For marketing purposes they identify the producer but there is no artistic individuality. The name serves only to establish scarcity and so to drive up the price. Go to any of the Aboriginal shanty towns and camps and you will not see a single work of Aboriganal 'art' anywhere. You will find no sign of any artistic sensibility.

Rock art? (i.e. artwork painted on rocks).

Like white people, Aboriginals artists have their own distinctive and recognisable style.

As for Dalis there was and still is a whole industry of fake Dali producers replete with experts who can tell the difference.

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Soren

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Re: Aboriginal culture
Reply #24 - Nov 16^th, 2009 at 10:07pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 16^th, 2009 at 9:57pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 16^th, 2009 at 9:50pm:

There is no Dali or any other individual behind Aboriginal or other primitive artefacts. It is precisely the individial that is missing. And not just from one or two artefacts but from the whole idea of Aboriginal 'art'. Whover the 'artists' may be, their ancestors 10000 years ago woul have done the same piece, had someone offered them whatever compensations they are getting now.
For marketing purposes they identify the producer but there is no artistic individuality. The name serves only to establish scarcity and so to drive up the price. Go to any of the Aboriginal shanty towns and camps and you will not see a single work of Aboriganal 'art' anywhere. You will find no sign of any artistic sensibility.

Rock art? (i.e. artwork painted on rocks).

Like white people, Aboriginals artists have their own distinctive and recognisable style.

As for Dalis there was and still is a whole industry of fake Dali producers replete with experts who can tell the difference.

Ok, name one pre-1950 artists producing Aboriganal 'art'.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Aboriginal culture
Reply #25 - Nov 16^th, 2009 at 10:48pm

Soren wrote on Nov 16^th, 2009 at 10:07pm:

Ok, name one pre-1950 artists producing Aboriganal 'art'.

I can't. Very few had English names away from towns and there were little or no records kept of them, except maybe those kept by intrepid anthropologists who recognised the beauty and stunning originality in their art and began to awaken the world to what most Australians couldn't see at the time. I know of only a couple of artists myself... Cecily Yates being one (from Warakurna, WA). A mate of mine knows about a dozen good painters... most are known outside their communities. The fact that they're not well known or recognisable faces is because they seldom leave their lands and do not seek fame or popularity.

Why were they not recognised earlier... Aboriginals were worthless animals back then, were they not? Wink

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Soren

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Re: Aboriginal culture
Reply #26 - Nov 16^th, 2009 at 11:20pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 16^th, 2009 at 10:48pm:

Why were they not recognised earlier... Aboriginals were worthless animals back then, were they not? Wink

Not having art does not make them worthless animals. This is pointless exaggeration.

But they had no concept of art until they were told that there is a market in their artefacts. Discovering and nurturing that market does not mean that there is any artistic expression in these artefact. They may be interesting, even fascinating and visually arresting and technically well executed but they are not art. They serve as memory aid for stories but are devoid of any individual voice or passion or wisdom or insight. They are slightly kitchy, schematic 'folk art'.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Aboriginal culture
Reply #27 - Nov 17^th, 2009 at 4:55am

Soren wrote on Nov 16^th, 2009 at 11:20pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 16^th, 2009 at 10:48pm:

Why were they not recognised earlier... Aboriginals were worthless animals back then, were they not? Wink

Not having art does not make them worthless animals. This is pointless exaggeration.

You missed my point. We don't value the attributes or output of those we consider worthless. Very few of us gave a rat's arse about Aboriginals in the 50's and most saw them as vermin.

Soren wrote on Nov 16^th, 2009 at 11:20pm:

But they had no concept of art until they were told that there is a market in their artefacts. Discovering and nurturing that market does not mean that there is any artistic expression in these artefact. They may be interesting, even fascinating and visually arresting and technically well executed but they are not art. They serve as memory aid for stories but are devoid of any individual voice or passion or wisdom or insight. They are slightly kitchy, schematic 'folk art'.

So you're saying it looks like art, its constructed like art, it arrests like art.... Grin

How does it go? If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then....

Just like white people, Aboriginal people can understand the difference between the objective and the abstract.

Just like white people's art, Aboriginal art is a fusion of the sensual, the poetic, the aspirational and mythological... Expressions of the individual's quest to reach out to the mind of the other... to challenge and negate human solipsism... By proving that other minds exist.

The need to produce art is an instinct of the species.

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« Last Edit: Nov 17^th, 2009 at 5:10am by NorthOfNorth »

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muso

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Re: Aboriginal culture
Reply #28 - Nov 17^th, 2009 at 1:24pm

Soren wrote on Nov 16^th, 2009 at 10:07pm:

Ok, name one pre-1950 artists producing Aboriganal 'art'.

oh God

er....er....Albert Namatjira?

as in:

I am, you are, we are Australian.
I'm a teller of stories, I'm a singer of songs
I am Albert Namatjira, and I paint the ghostly gums
I am Clancy on his horse, I'm Ned Kelly on the run
I'm the one who waltzed Matilda, I am Australian.
........
........
We are one but we are many
And from all the lands on earth we come,
we share a dream,
And sing with one voice,
I am, you are, we are Australian.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Aboriginal culture
Reply #29 - Nov 17^th, 2009 at 2:08pm

muso wrote on Nov 17^th, 2009 at 1:24pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 16^th, 2009 at 10:07pm:

Ok, name one pre-1950 artists producing Aboriganal 'art'.

oh God

er....er....Albert Namatjira?

as in:

I am, you are, we are Australian.
I'm a teller of stories, I'm a singer of songs
I am Albert Namatjira, and I paint the ghostly gums
I am Clancy on his horse, I'm Ned Kelly on the run
I'm the one who waltzed Matilda, I am Australian.
........
........
We are one but we are many
And from all the lands on earth we come,
we share a dream,
And sing with one voice,
I am, you are, we are Australian.

Touché.

Shame on the rest of us for not picking that one up...

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