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muslim enclaves discussed (Read 1754 times)

Sprintcyclist

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muslim enclaves discussed
Oct 29^th, 2009 at 9:43am

this is why i vote liberals generally.

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LIBERAL MP Kevin Andrews has called for a debate on Muslim "enclaves" in parts of Australia, blaming political correctness for a failure to discuss the issue.

Mr Andrews, a former immigration minister who is heading the Coalition's policy unit in the lead-up to the next election, told radio broadcaster Alan Jones this morning that to “have a concentration of one ethnic or one particular group that remains in an enclave for a long period of time is not good”.

And Mr Andrews told The Australian Online that it was clear that some Muslims were not “dispersing” into the community as other ethnic groups had in the past.

“ I don't think it's happening as rapidly as with other communities in the past. I think it's desirable,” he said.

Mr Andrews coincided with a call from outspoken Liberal MP Wilson Tuckey this morning for Australia to call in the army to get asylum-seekers off the Oceanic Viking customs vessel and onshore to an Indonesian detention centre.

Asked about the growth of Muslim population in Australia, Mr Andrews said it was a topic that had to be discussed.

“You should be able to talk about it ... It's ridiculous if you can't talk about any subject,” he said.
“When a subject becomes politically incorrect to talk about, then it ends up with a backlash.

“I think part of the (Pauline) Hanson movement in the early 1990s was because some subjects were simply said to be off the table, they couldn't be discussed and a lot of Australians wanted to discuss them.

“Whether they were right or wrong is not the point. In a democracy you should be able to discuss them.”
Mr Tuckey said today the Prime Minister should send in the army if the asylum-seekers onboard an Australian customs vessel after 11 days at sea refused to disembark.

“He can ask the army to go up there and take those people off,” Mr Tuckey said.

“He can send that vessel back.”

Senior Liberal senator Eric Abetz said the government would be embarrassed if it had to use force to end the stand-off.

“If you're soft on border protection you then become hostage to situations like this,” he said in Canberra.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26275798-601,00.html

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: muslim enclaves discussed
Reply #1 - Oct 29^th, 2009 at 10:24am

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A FEW weeks ago in London, British Foreign Secretary David Miliband told me that 75 per cent of the terrorist plots aimed at Britain originated in the federally administered tribal areas of Pakistan. Some 800,000 Pakistanis live in Britain.

The vast majority, it goes without saying, are law-abiding citizens. But there is a link between uncontrolled Muslim immigration and terrorism.

The real historic significance of the illegal immigration crisis in our northern waters is that this could, if things go wrong, be the moment Australia loses control of our immigration program, and that would be a disaster. It is extremely difficult to talk honestly about Muslim immigration. All generalisations about it are subject to countless exceptions. Muslims are very different from each other. Most are reasonably successful.

But a much bigger minority end up with social, political, extremist or other problems resulting from a lack of integration than is the case with any other cohort of immigrants in Western societies. A lack of honest discussion about this results in bad policy.

The most enlightening book you could possibly read on this is by USjournalist Christopher Caldwell, Reflections on the Revolution in Europe: Immigration, Islam and the West. It is by far the best book on public policy of any kind I have read for a long time. It is wittily written but attempts to be neither provocative nor politically correct. It is dense with data but its greatest strength lies in laying bare the intellectual, political and social dynamics that have led to the mess in Europe. The way the Australian debate is reprising what were profoundly destructive and misguided European debates, dominated by moral sanctimony and a failure to grasp reality, is eerie.

Caldwell is enlightening on the way asylum assessment processes are so easily scammed, and the sophisticated, intense exchange of information that means the slightest change in attitude by a receiving country is instantly relayed throughout illegal immigrant networks. He writes: "An easily game-able system was in place that made admissions automatic to prospective immigrants who understood it. Various immigrant advocacy NGOs in Europe made sure they understood it... migrants knew the best countries to claim to come from. They also knew the best countries to go to ... (There was an) incredible sensitivity of prospective migrants to shifts in immigration law, and to countries' moods towards immigrants."

Caldwell also shows that once an illegal immigrant route is established as reliable it becomes immensely popular. This is what the struggle in the waters to Australia's north now is really all about. He further demonstrates how completely subjective and plastic the asylum-seeker assessment procedures are. In 2001 Denmark approved a majority of asylum applicants. By 2004, when the mood had changed, it approved only one in 10, though of course in Europe rejected applicants basically don't go home.
At times Caldwell seems to be arguing against immigration in principle, although all the problems he adduces relate specifically to Muslim immigration, and he acknowledges the success of other immigrants in Europe.

He frequently acknowledges the success of immigration in Canada, the US and Australia. In Canada and Australia, the governments choose the immigrants. In the US, most illegal immigrants come from Latin America and don't have the Muslim problems.

But in so far as he makes a general case against immigration, I strongly disagree with Caldwell.

What he is really concerned with is uncontrolled Muslim immigration. The facts he produces are very disturbing. No European majority ever wanted this to happen. There are 20million Muslims in western Europe and this number will double by 2025.
How did this mass immigration of people with few relevant job or language skills, and a culture deeply alien to Europe, come about? Caldwell argues that the post-World War II period saw a radical disjuncture in European attitudes. Europe had just been wrecked by an enemy, the Nazis, who were avowedly racist. The unimaginable disaster of the Holocaust haunted every discussion of morality or policy. Europe was in the throes of decolonisation and felt guilty about its relations with non-white people.

This made an ideology of anti-racism - which itself became extreme and distorted, detached from reality and in many cases downright intolerant - the more or less official state religion of Europe. This had little to do with really combating racism.

In one of history's countless ironies, Muslim immigrants benefited from the legacy of the Jewish Holocaust. The determination initially to extirpate anti-Semitism didn't help many European Jews because they were almost all gone, but it offered a template for Muslim immigrants to find and exploit an ethnic victim status. This set up profoundly destructive dynamics and, in another irony, reintroduced serious anti-Semitism to Europe, carried with the Muslim arrivals.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26273469-5013460,00.html

tbc

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: muslim enclaves discussed
Reply #2 - Oct 29^th, 2009 at 10:27am

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In one of history's countless ironies, Muslim immigrants benefited from the legacy of the Jewish Holocaust. The determination initially to extirpate anti-Semitism didn't help many European Jews because they were almost all gone, but it offered a template for Muslim immigrants to find and exploit an ethnic victim status. This set up profoundly destructive dynamics and, in another irony, reintroduced serious anti-Semitism to Europe, carried with the Muslim arrivals.

Caldwell suggests a welfare state makes a bad marriage with mass, unskilled immigration. Welfare rather than opportunity becomes the attraction. More importantly, welfare becomes a lethal poverty trap.

At the same time, satellite television, the internet and mass immigration from a few countries means the old culture is always on hand for Muslim migrants. They don't need to integrate if they don't want to or find it difficult.

In many cases Caldwell cites, the second-generation of Muslim immigrants is less integrated than the first, and the third less than the second.
The demographic figures he cites are familiar but still shocking. Native Europeans won't have babies at anything like replacement level while the fertility of Muslim immigrants does not decline through time, as is the case with other immigrants.

Religion is the strongest predictor of fertility in Europe.
By mid-century Islam will be the majority religion of Austrians under the age of 15. In Brussels, most births are to Muslims and have been since 2006. In France, one in 10 people are Muslims, but they are one in three of those entering their child-bearing years, and Muslims have three times as many children as other French.
Caldwell writes: "Europe finds itself in a contest with Islam for the allegiance of its newcomers. For now, Islam is the stronger party in that contest ... when an insecure, malleable, relativistic culture meets a culture that is anchored, confident and strengthened by common doctrines, it is generally the former that changes to suit the latter."

Uncontrolled Muslim immigration is a change to Europe so great it makes all the treaties and bureaucratic falderol of the EU look footling and transitory by comparison.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26273469-5013460,00.html

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blutigeroo

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Re: muslim enclaves discussed
Reply #3 - Oct 29^th, 2009 at 3:12pm

The way Islamophobia (and anti-semitisim) is sweeping the west needs to be discussed. Currently, neo-nazi politicians are on the rise and gaining support in Europe. I certainly hope the same thing happens here in Aus.

In mainstream politics and media, Islamophobic sentiments are presented as natural. Statements of political leading figures have contributed to the Islamophobic views, such as Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi claiming that “Western culture is superior to Muslim culture.”

BNP, for example, advocates for a return to the good old pre-1948 whites-only days and only falls short of calling whites a superior race. The party actively promotes alarmist views about the spread of Islam in Europe and calls for the deportation of Muslim subjects to their homelands, regardless of whether those subjects – many of whom have been born in Europe – had ever set foot outside the continent.

Sarkozy lectured Muslim women on whats best for them in the name of freedom, yet he went out of his way to say that the Church poses no threat to French values. Muslim-baiting is one of the newer tactics of the European ruling elite to divide the working class and distract the public from the economic crisis. It's not just the Muslims who must deal with the consequences of nationalism, gypsies and other minorities are in danger as well. When you scratch beneath the surface, there remains a level of intolerance in Europe which may only manifest itself by political incorrectness. Also we should not forget the recent history of a continent that has been at war with itself and its minorities for much of the last hundred years.

From George Bush saying that God told him to go to war against Iraq and Rumsfeld garnishing his Iraq policy recommendations with bible quotes, to the Phelps family parading with their 'God hates fags' signs and the Pope saying homosexuality might destroy the human race, to Anne Coulter saying we should occupy the whole of the middle east and convert the infidels therein to Christinaity, to Chabad Rabbi Manis Friedman saying that Israel would be justfied in killing every last Arab man, woman and child according to Jewish law. All religions have their extremists, fundamentalists and crackpots, but i'd never argue that they were typical, or that they somehow proved that Christianity and Judaism are 'barbaric' or 'backwards' relgions, because they don't. And the same is true of Muslims and Islam. You're just taking the worst examples, and then unfairly generalising from them to try and paint Muslims and Islam as uniquely different from, and dangerous compared to, other religions/belief systems. That's basically what Islamophobia is.

And unfortunately, it's all too prevelant.

One other thing, the majority of muslims in the west do abide by the laws of the land in which they reside. However, it is completely unfair for someone to accept unethical “laws” that are purposefully created to infuriate and demonise a certain sector of society. For example, what harm is it causing anyone if a young muslim girl, out of choice wishes to dress modestly? No one complains when a female decides to reveal all. Blatant double standards, I think?

If exceptions can be made in places like England for the sikh community not having wear motorcycle helmets as it is difficult for turban wearers why can’t England (for example) tolerate Muslims??

In about 30 yrs none of this will matter as we will all be Chinese anyways. That is, if we go by the high brith rates-- the Chinese are spreading, and reproducing by their sheer volume faster than any other nation. I guess its time for Europe to introduce a one-child policy for all Muslims right sprinty?

These simplistic ideas of Muslims and immigrants being something strange or/and other to Europe are leading to exclusion and alienation. Many Muslims in Europe are first of all Europeans, European by birth, conviction and citizenship AND Muslim by faith.

It was just over sixty years ago that one of Europe's major states and cultural centres, Germany, was engaging in the worst act of genocide and mass murder that humanity has ever seen. European states have also carried out genocides, and set up racist settler states, in North America, Australasia and parts of Africa in the fairly recent past. The U.S. and U.K. have attacked at least six Muslim countries (Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, Somali) in the last eight years or so, to the tune of millions of deaths and displacements. I just think it's astounding when Europeans get on their high horse and try and contrast 'civilised, tolerant englightened Europe' with the 'backwards, irrational, intolerant Muslim world'.

*Wait for the accusations of 'self-hatred' and 'treason' to start flying*

The one good thing that is coming out of Europe's increasingly white Christians-only attitude is that Muslims and Jews are banding together. I hope the right wing nutters of Europe can join them instead of adopting a superiority complex and spreading hatred.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: muslim enclaves discussed Reply #4 - Oct 29^th, 2009 at 5:26pm Very eloquent bollocks.
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Soren

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Re: muslim enclaves discussed
Reply #5 - Oct 29^th, 2009 at 5:35pm

No embassy in Copenhagen has been ransacked in response to the orchestrated Muslim riots over the Mo cartoons.
No Muslim imam preaching anti-west hatred has been knived on the streets of Cairo, Ramallah or Damascus, Bible passeges pinned to his chest with a dagger.
No western girls are 'honour killed' if they go out ith muslim boys.
No wwestern expatriots working in Muslim countries are found daily to be plotting murder and mayhm.

If there are nutters among Muslims, it is the responsibility of the rest of the Muslims to reign them in - it is not for me to grow accustomed to and tolerant of them,, like the rest of the 'peaceful' Muslims have already.

Some Muslim customs and views are alien and intolerable in a western society. Change and we can talk again. Don't com to the west and ask the host to assimilate to you.

We will assimilate whatever good you have offer. The crap - leave it at the door. If you can't, don't come in. If you have grown a taste for after your arrival, leave. If you can't leave, cop the bollocking until you change or leave.

Can't make it fairer than that.

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Hlysnan

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Re: muslim enclaves discussed
Reply #6 - Oct 29^th, 2009 at 8:36pm

I think it's a bit frightening to think that one day, the religion I belong to may become a minority. I don't mean that Islam itself is scary because we all share the same roots (Abrahamic religions at least). I just hope that this doesn't adversely affect the struggle for equal rights regarding women and other previously disadvantaged groups. Maybe more progressive branches of Islam will become more dominant with the eventual assimilation of Muslims.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 29^th, 2009 at 9:43am:

this is why i vote liberals generally.

I think One Nation still exists.

blutigeroo wrote on Oct 29^th, 2009 at 3:12pm:

BNP, for example, advocates for a return to the good old pre-1948 whites-only days and only falls short of calling whites a superior race. The party actively promotes alarmist views about the spread of Islam in Europe and calls for the deportation of Muslim subjects to their homelands, regardless of whether those subjects – many of whom have been born in Europe – had ever set foot outside the continent.

I agree with most of what you said but I'm pretty sure that the BNP's policy is to stop all immigration and deport only those who are illegal and convicted immigrants. I don't think Islam is being singled out, although some party members may have their preferences.

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Re: muslim enclaves discussed
Reply #7 - Oct 30^th, 2009 at 8:09am

In 1974, former Algerian President Houari Boumedienne warned Europe in a speech at the UN : “One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.”

“Soon we will take power in this country. Those who criticize us now, will regret it. They will have to serve us. Prepare, for the hour is near.” — Belgium-based imam in 1994.

Muslim religion and so called Jihad was designed to conquer and convert others (Infidels). To achieve this goal Muslim women are reduced on nothing else then factories for producing enormous number of children ( Average Muslim family in Australia has 12 children ).
Deliberately with planing, some of them are designed to be a Martyrs like suicide bombers or “Refugees’ sent to conquer other countries without wars and weapons.

Do we need to be always politically correct.
In the world of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

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Yadda

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Re: muslim enclaves discussed
Reply #8 - Nov 1^st, 2009 at 11:26am

blutigeroo wrote on Oct 29^th, 2009 at 3:12pm:

Islamophobia ???

If you don't recognise that ISLAM is pure evil, then you are a part of the problem.

If you don't recognise that ISLAM is a death cult, then you are a part of the problem.

If you don't recognise that ISLAM is an evil philosophy, driven by deception, falsehood, and violence, then you are a part of the problem.

If you don't recognise that ISLAM, wherever it is empowered, it is an evil political tyranny, then what planet are you living on???

Why don't thinking people READ ISLAM's own foundation documents, to determine the true nature of ISLAM?

Peaceful ISLAM?? It is a lie!

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."

Koran 9.123

Tolerant ISLAM?? It is a lie!

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him;...."

Koran 3.85

The truth is, that all good moslems are, intolerant, deceitful, religious bigots.

And we should treat ALL PEOPLE WHO DECLARE THEMSELVES TO BE MOSLEMS, as though there were, intolerant, deceitful, religious bigots.

THE PHILOSOPHY WHICH ISLAM PROMOTES AND ENCOURAGES IN ALL MOSLEMS IS VERY CLEAR,

"Freedom go to Hell"

ISLAM's true agenda

ISLAM's method - TERROR

"Slay those who insult Islam"
"Behead those who insult Islam"
"Massacre those who insult Islam"
"Butcher those who mock Islam"
"Europe you will pay, demolition is on its way"
"Europe you will pay, extermination is on its way"
"Exterminate those who slander Islam"
"Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer"
"Islam will dominate the world"
"Freedom go to hell"
"Europe take some lessons from 9/11"
"Be prepared for the real Holocaust"
"BBC = British Blasphemic Crusaders"

Europe is a cancer, ISLAM is the answer???

Teaching moslem children, ISLAMIC values [London]

Google,

muslim culture "we love death"

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=muslim+culture+%22we+love+death%22&btnG=...

THE RELIGION OF PEACE

http://thereligionofpeace.com/

ISLAM is a death cult, riven with factionalism, division, and violence.

The words of respected ISLAMIC 'scholar', Sayyid Qutb,
....."the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8802-2243871,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb

Muslims are the vilest of animals

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1254103004/0#0

Muslim Sesame Street V - Pepsi Cola, the Apes, Pigs and Jews

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbHVEGnYD8

Muslim Threatens Christians for Speaking about Muhammad

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gxfFrAUBV-U

So This is England 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHszsGbBJQo

Britain - what happens when islam start to take over

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASlin_9Bekw

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: muslim enclaves discussed
Reply #9 - Nov 1^st, 2009 at 2:03pm

ISLAM is evil.

ISLAM promotes and encourages
within moslem communities, 1/ the intolerance of non-moslems [and all non-moslem values], 2/ lying to, and the deception of non-moslems, and 3/ religious bigotry.

Dictionary,

bigot = = a person who is prejudiced in their views and *intolerant of the opinions* of others.

EXAMPLE [not misquoted, not misrepresented],

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him;...."

Koran 3.85

These kind of values [Koran verse above], are being taught in Australian mosques.

These are good moslem 'values'.

And all such teachings, from the Koran, are good, and acceptable, to all good moslems.

STUDY ISLAM'S OWN FOUNDATION DOCUMENTS, THE KORAN, AND THE HADITH,

Koran, 2.216 2.244 3.028 3.085 3.118 4.074-76 4.095 4.101 4.144 5.033-034 5.051 5.101,102 8.012 8.067 9.029,030 9.123 33.060,061 47.033-035 48.029

Hadith, 1.002.025 4.052.065 4.052.196 4.052.260 4.056.660

ON-LINE KORAN, AND HADITH,

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith...

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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