Australian Politics Forum - Australian Racism continues to rear its head Oct09

mantra Gold Member Offline ozpolitic.com Posts: 10750 Gender:	Re: Australian Racism continues to rear its head Oct09 Reply #30 - Oct 8^th, 2009 at 8:01pm Abu - I haven't got involved in this thread. I posted those comments and the pics as a favour to someone else. Personally I didn't like the movie - I found it offensive in more ways than one.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Racism continues to rear its head Oct09
Reply #31 - Oct 8^th, 2009 at 8:16pm

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 8^th, 2009 at 4:03pm:

Quote:

By the way, Australians are often portrayed in American and British flim as cultureless idiots, pissheads and classless swill... An unfair stereotype, but Aussies take it in their stride when its intended to be lighthearted.

Come on, it's not all that unfair... We're not offended because we know it's true!

We're not offended because we love a good laugh... Anything for a laugh, even on ourselves.

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Soren

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Re: Australian Racism continues to rear its head Oct09
Reply #32 - Oct 8^th, 2009 at 10:29pm

Harry Connick is insincere. The Jackon Jive have hit a raw nerve. Connick said: "We have spent so much time trying to not make black people look like bufoons."

This implies a question to all the black and other tinted people - YOU don't need to spend so much time trying not to make, say, Swedes look like bufoons.

Stereotypes may be unfair to particular individuals but as for the group, they are accurate portrayals - otherwise they would not have become stereotypes. Comedy depends on this.

Jiving, swaggering, cool dude blacks dripping with bling ARE bufoons. Tintedness is no immunity from ridicule.

Just because not all blacks are like that does not mean you can't ridicule them as a group. The jiving, swaggering black cohort ARE bufoons. If you are not one of them then it's not about you. Then we are not laughing AT you, we are laughing WITH you.

Fackir, tell us something funny.

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fakir

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Re: Australian Racism continues to rear its head Oct09
Reply #33 - Oct 9^th, 2009 at 3:03am

Okay, I am addressing several replies in one post here.

1) it is intensely frustrating for people to keep using the same arguments after I've already addressed them. I already addressed the issue of apples vs oranges comparisons and that black people painting their skin white is not the same as vice versa for historical reasons. I gave very compelling arguments that any person with common-sense doesn't argue against:

example:
when a girl calls you fat, you're not as offended as vice versa

But if you cannot comprehend why one standard for one group of people doesn't necessarily apply to a different group of people, then it's no wonder all you people who are replying don't get it. Whatever the case is, it is both arrogant and ignorant to expect that whatever standard of social behaviour is acceptable to yourself is somehow acceptable when applied to another person. This is old colonial thinking that the British discarded some 50-60 years ago, and I have to wonder why Australians don't yet have a self-awareness to understand global norms for socially acceptable behaviour.

2) someone replied asking me to look at third world countries, or socially oppressive countries like China. Well way to go mate! I already addressed this in a previous reply but I guess people don't bother to read replies properly on this forum. I'll repeat my answer (but I suspect I will have to do this over and over again):

Ans: Of course there are countries that are worse than Australia! But do you really want to benchmark against these countries? Is Australian racism so bad that you need to proudly pat yourself on the back and say "at least we're not as bad as Zimbabwe?". Well done mate for setting your standards so low!

3) We all know the doctors did not intend to offend. Let's stop focusing on this (as others on the WWW are doing). The doctors' intent is NOT the issue. It is the ignorance of 70% of Australians (who were polled), and apparently everyone in the studio at the time that what was done was offensive, that is the issue. Furthermore, after discovering it was offensive, the worst crime is the apathy and insensitivity of Australians in saying "what's the problem? I don't find it offensive!"

And that is the biggest issue that I brought up in my OP: we all know that Australians are generally irreverent, and that's okay if you make fun of yourself. But the problem is that irreverence is so culturally ingrained (and if you study social history you will know this cultural element did descend from the convicts and their disdain for authority) that Australians generally cannot differentiate appropriate and inappropriate humour/behaviour any more.

This extends to derogatory name-calling made against minorities that Australians think is "okay". Look at the replies on this thread! Generally people are saying over and over again "gee.. I don't know what the big deal is". I have been saying, and this has been the only thing I have ever been saying on this board, that racism in Australia will never be resolved until white Australians (ie. the majority) understand how to be more sensitive, and to practice selective irreverence. Australians ARE a good people, they are just out of touch and have a subtle but general racism that will never be eliminated until it is acknowledged and Australians develop a ZERO tolerance for it.

Heck, one person even replied "if you don't like it, get out of here!". Well done again! Australia is perfect so stick your head back in the sand!

The amazing thing is that I don't even have to break a sweat proving that Australians are racist. The lot of you replying to this thread are proving it yourself by showing your indifference to what happened and an unwillingness to acknowledge the feelings of other people that you don't understand or care to understand.

And here is a response from a beloved Aussie icon on the whole issue:
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/story/0,28383,26185534-10229,00.html

What bitter irony that the cartoonist would showcase such racism after all that has happened, as if to punctuate a reputation beyond what is already globally known: that Australians are racist.

But I suppose the replies to this thread are going to continue to showcase the stubbornness of white Australians to acknowledge that their general apathy and indifference toward racism is a problem. I wonder to myself: what does it take to change your attitude?

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« Last Edit: Oct 9^th, 2009 at 8:48am by fakir »

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Soren

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Re: Australian Racism continues to rear its head Oct09
Reply #34 - Oct 9^th, 2009 at 7:43am

In addition to Australian irrereverence you have forgotten to add Australians' supicion of emotional and political correctness.

Re: third world countries - they are not the standard but you would gain incredible kudos if you worried (or actually did something) about really terrible and grim injsutices, rather than kvetching and getting all emotional over a JOKE. What are YOU doing about people actually killed for being the wrong race? Your complete and utter lack of a sense of proportion is the main reason why you are taken a lot less seriously than you would like to be.

Now there is something for you to grow: a sense of proportion. Many, many tinted people need to get their inferiority complexes sorted. Otherwise they will never get rid of the chip on their shoulders. Hammering whitey over colonialism goes only so far in adressing inferiority, sloth, bufoonery and so forth.
Respect is earned. If it is given as a result of emotional and political blackmail, it is not real respect. ANd while tinted people continue to do unspeakable things to each other, they have little moral ground to demand respect from anybody.

What has been the main cultural contribution of balck Americans since the 1960s? Gangster rap - bufoonery of a sinister kind, in other words.

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fakir

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Re: Australian Racism continues to rear its head Oct09
Reply #35 - Oct 9^th, 2009 at 8:41am

Soren wrote on Oct 9^th, 2009 at 7:43am:

In
Re: third world countries - they are not the standard but you would gain incredible kudos if you worried (or actually did something) about really terrible and grim injsutices, rather than kvetching and getting all emotional over a JOKE. What are YOU doing about people actually killed for being the wrong race? Your complete and utter lack of a sense of proportion is the main reason why you are taken a lot less seriously than you would like to be.

Now there is something for you to grow: a sense of proportion. Many, many tinted people need to get their inferiority complexes sorted. Otherwise they will never get rid of the chip on their shoulders. Hammering whitey over colonialism goes only so far in adressing inferiority, sloth, bufoonery and so forth.
Respect is earned. If it is given as a result of emotional and political blackmail, it is not real respect. ANd while tinted people continue to do unspeakable things to each other, they have little moral ground to demand respect from anybody.

soren, you fail to understand the purpose of the EXAMPLE I brought up. The example is the Hey Hey skit. What is the exact point I am trying to raise? My point is that racism is endemic in Australia, especially amongst white Australians who inherently believe they are the only true Australians which is why they have the habit of telling visible minorities to "go back to where you came from", even though the "tinted" Australian may be a 5th generation Australian (true story).

I have brought up this topic of racism on these boards before and have generally been met with the same hostility and indifference as been demonstrated on this thread. I am now dating the threads I start to indicate that even through the years, nothing may change with Austraryan attitudes.

However this time it's different. This time the racist event has gone global, and therefore we have a world-wide perspective on the issue. This time Australians can see how different their narrow viewpoints are compared with the rest of the world. I've said before that you cannot see your own racism because you're still living amongst it. Now that the world is telling you that you're racist, if you cannot see it even now, when can you EVER see it? You won't listen to an "Australian" (me), oh sorry I mean "Asian with an Australian passport" (I don't want to offend the true white Australians here, or cause their heads to explode in confusion), you won't listen to the rest of the world. It's no wonder Australian attitudes haven't changed my entire life.

As for me championing race relations in third world countries - gimme a break. What do you think I am? A martyr? Learn from history - change has never happened from without. Changes happen from within. How can an Australian of Asian Descent have any credibility with some third world country he has no connection with, as far as social commentary is concerned? Why don't you look up history and see the success rate of that. It doesn't work because 1) I have no motivation or stake and therefore don't have legs/endurance 2) the people themselves would not be receptive to my bandstanding (heck I am having zero success even in my own home country! (I mean Australia folks, not somewhere in Asia))

But the real reason you are suggesting for me to go somewhere else to "preach" is because you think you're alright. You think that there are worse off places and "it was just a small joke". Yes, I'm sure you think Mel Gibson's drunken remarks were a small joke too, but perhaps that "small joke" is a BIG SIGN of an endemic problem.

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fakir

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Re: Australian Racism continues to rear its head Oct09
Reply #36 - Oct 9^th, 2009 at 9:12am

pope urban 2 wrote on Oct 8^th, 2009 at 3:33pm:

Fakir, why are only white people racist, I guess the rest of the world is such a perfect Utopia of love and peace, get a grip. Call it whatever you like, some people just dont like other people, live with it.

In Canada, racism is only at the individual level, it's not culturally endemic like it is in Australia. You will always have asshats that will be racist in every country.

In other words, I cannot say with any credibility that "white Canadians" are racist, because in Canada the proportion of racism amongst white people is at most equal with racism amongst visible minorities. This is my experience.

In Australia however, the perpetrators are white. White Australians feel entitled to the country, and visible minorities are seen as foreigners plain and simple. That was my experience.

(by the way, I keep using the term "white Australian" but I bet you almost never hear that term in Australia right? At least I have never heard it. That's because an "Australian" IS white right? Think about that)

I visited Australia in 2006, and my very successful single Australian friend (of Asian descent) was showing off his lifestyle and his friends, who were predominantly white. I couldn't help but notice just how many times his friends referred to him as "Asian". It was a smack in the face after living in Canada for 4 years and never hearing those kind of blatantly racist references. Of course, my friend just played along and made a lame joke that he was actually "French". He probably wouldn't admit to anything "wrong" with it, because he has to live with it. But he definitely felt uncomfortable about being marginalized enough to deflect the racism to a more neutral area.

Here's the question: were those white friends bad people? Were they trying to be mean to my friend? No, they didn't seem to be mean-spirited. It seemed to me that racism was so endemic in Australia that nobody could even recognize it any more. That's why most of you are having trouble understanding what the big deal is.

So you guys are seeing this Hey Hey skit and shrugging your shoulders and wondering what the fuss is all about. THE POINT IS NOT THE SKIT!!!

Let me repeat it a few more times in red, hopefully so it can get through to your comprehension:

THE POINT IS NOT THE SKIT!!!
THE POINT IS NOT THE SKIT!!!
THE POINT IS NOT THE SKIT!!!
THE POINT IS NOT THE SKIT!!!

I watched the skit, and I would have reacted the same way as Harry Connick Jr, who was somewhat conciliatory toward the end of the show. He knew the doctors didn't mean to offend.

What the problem is, and I said this from the beginning, and I will repeat a few times in red because some of you obviously never understood the first time I said it is:

NOBODY THOUGHT IT WAS OFFENSIVE, AND AFTER FINDING OUT IT WAS OFFENSIVE AUSTRALIANS WERE INDIFFERENT

NOBODY THOUGHT IT WAS OFFENSIVE, AND AFTER FINDING OUT IT WAS OFFENSIVE AUSTRALIANS WERE INDIFFERENT

NOBODY THOUGHT IT WAS OFFENSIVE, AND AFTER FINDING OUT IT WAS OFFENSIVE AUSTRALIANS WERE INDIFFERENT

NOBODY THOUGHT IT WAS OFFENSIVE, AND AFTER FINDING OUT IT WAS OFFENSIVE AUSTRALIANS WERE INDIFFERENT

And I would appreciate it if you white Australians would stop telling minorities like me to "get a grip", or "who cares about Asians not being on billboards". Well duh - that's my point - you white Austraryans don't care about minorities! And even if I explain how much racism I have experienced in Australia, you still don't care because you feel entitled to be the sole and true Australians and don't care how minorities feel. Why? Because deep down, we are not Australian to you.

When I first posted here, I had to provide proof of what I was saying. Now I don't have to, because most of you are showing your racism through your own words.

And here is a perfect example:

Calanen wrote on Oct 8^th, 2009 at 7:29pm:

What a massive whinge about nothing.

So what if there are not enough Asians on billboards, who cares.

...

If you don't like Australia then bugger off.

The very least you can do is admit you're racist to the rest of the world, and be done with it. You cannot both act racist, and pretend you're not. If you admit you're racist, and you're proud to be, then at least I know there is no hope for you, and I will stop believing that white Australians are good people.

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« Last Edit: Oct 9^th, 2009 at 9:33am by fakir »

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muso

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Re: Australian Racism continues to rear its head Oct09
Reply #37 - Oct 9^th, 2009 at 2:59pm

Soren wrote on Oct 9^th, 2009 at 7:43am:

In addition to Australian irrereverence you have forgotten to add Australians' supicion of emotional and political correctness.

Re: third world countries - they are not the standard but you would gain incredible kudos if you worried (or actually did something) about really terrible and grim injsutices, rather than kvetching and getting all emotional over a JOKE. What are YOU doing about people actually killed for being the wrong race? Your complete and utter lack of a sense of proportion is the main reason why you are taken a lot less seriously than you would like to be.

Now there is something for you to grow: a sense of proportion. Many, many tinted people need to get their inferiority complexes sorted. Otherwise they will never get rid of the chip on their shoulders. Hammering whitey over colonialism goes only so far in adressing inferiority, sloth, bufoonery and so forth.
Respect is earned. If it is given as a result of emotional and political blackmail, it is not real respect. ANd while tinted people continue to do unspeakable things to each other, they have little moral ground to demand respect from anybody.

What has been the main cultural contribution of balck Americans since the 1960s? Gangster rap - bufoonery of a sinister kind, in other words.

I think Australians tend to call a spade a spade (no racist connotations intended). Everybody should be capable of being lampooned, for one reason or another, but not specifically because of their race or religion. I find myself agreeing that if somebody is loaded up with bling and taking street jive, then of course they deserve the piss to be taken. Of course not all black people are like that.

I read recently that American comedians are finding it difficult to frame Obama from a comedy perspective. I think the reason is that it's a very fine line to tread. Make fun of Obama and you make fun of black people, or you could be interpreted in that way.

Some people say that ethnic people hide behind their ethnicity and refuse to be the butt of jokes. The extent to which they do that depends of their acceptance by society. I have one Chinese friend who is a very funny guy and very easy going. When he's among friends he gives as good as he takes - like most other Australians. He still gets some racism, but it doesn't bother him because the type of people who are racist don't really have valuable opinions anyway. They deserve to be ignored as insignificant.

Fakir - have you noticed the amazing overconfidence that young Indians have these days? They seem to blend into the youth subculture much better than their parents ever did.

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Soren

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Re: Australian Racism continues to rear its head Oct09
Reply #38 - Oct 9^th, 2009 at 5:59pm

Fakir,
Pisstake is not racism. You are barking up the wrong tree. Australians take the piss with everyone: tall poppies, rednecks, bogans - why not 'minorities'? Being from a 'minority' is not a virtue and you have no special right to be shielded from pisstake. Look at my Pizza clip -Australians taking the piss across the boards - Lebs, Asians, bogans, wogs, bimbos, the lot. Tastless fun. Not racism.

People ignore you and tell you to bugger off because you can't even imagine that you are not completely right. You have shown no sense of proportion. Most peopel GENUINELY do not think that the skit was racist, even without knowing that the group are as diverse as AUstralia itself.

What irks you most is that Australian are no longer cringing about what others think of them and they are confident enough not to kowtow (!) to them even if they happen to be expatriot 'minorities'. And this confidence is a splendid and excellent thing - and wel-earned and well-deserved. Needless to say, Australia is not perfect but it has every reason to be confident, not least in the way it is handling race relations.

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« Last Edit: Oct 9^th, 2009 at 10:28pm by Soren »

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athos

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Re: Australian Racism continues to rear its head Oct09
Reply #39 - Oct 9^th, 2009 at 6:21pm

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 8^th, 2009 at 8:38am:

fakir,

As most here will know I am the biggest critic of the often racist views and attitudes of some Australians, but I think in this case Harry Connick Jnr. and yourself have gone a little overboard. I guess because Australia doesn't have such a delicate racial balance between large black and white populations (as the U.S for instance does) we're not as sensitive to such things, and neither do we need to be.

I could find nothing racially discriminatory in that skit whatsoever. Just actually dressing as blacks isn't in itself racist, and that's what you seem to be suggesting is the racist element to the skit??

Whilst I'm sure you probably have some valid grievances against Australians, this is simply not racist. And I say this, having been subjected to racial abuse (even though I myself am Anglo).

I entirely agree. There is nothing malicious and racist in this innocent play.
Looks that political correctness reached unprecedented ridiculous proportions.
If you just mentioned word Jew you are automatically an anti-Semite, or if you say black you are a racist.

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Do we need to be always politically correct.
In the world of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

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pope urban 2

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Re: Australian Racism continues to rear its head Oct09
Reply #40 - Oct 9^th, 2009 at 6:58pm

Fakir, I have been to Canada recently, their treatment of the Chinese in the past was so bad, they have special laws about saying anything at all about the Chinese. As bad as Australia had been, America rarely mention their treatment of The American Indians, even the Blacks have more rights then they do. Im sure even you Fakir, have a bad view of some nationalities or religions.

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God takes care of old folks and fools, while the Devil makes up all the rules.

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Soren

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Re: Australian Racism continues to rear its head Oct09
Reply #41 - Oct 9^th, 2009 at 7:30pm

fakir wrote on Oct 9^th, 2009 at 8:41am:

As for me championing race relations in third world countries - gimme a break. What do you think I am? A martyr? Learn from history - change has never happened from without. Changes happen from within. How can an Australian of Asian Descent have any credibility with some third world country he has no connection with, as far as social commentary is concerned? Why don't you look up history and see the success rate of that. It doesn't work because 1) I have no motivation or stake and therefore don't have legs/endurance 2) the people themselves would not be receptive to my bandstanding (heck I am having zero success even in my own home country! (I mean Australia folks, not somewhere in Asia))

Arse-covering copout.

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« Last Edit: Oct 9^th, 2009 at 7:45pm by Soren »

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Re: Australian Racism continues to rear its head Oct09
Reply #42 - Oct 9^th, 2009 at 8:13pm

Quote:

Fakir,
Pisstake is not racism. You are baking up the wrong tree. Australians take the piss with everyone: tall poppies, rednecks, bogans - why not 'minorities'? Being from a 'minority' is not a virtue and you have no special right to be shielded from pisstake. Look at my Pizza clip -Australians taking the piss across the boards - Lebs, Asians, bogans, wogs, bimbos, the lot. Tastless fun. Not racism.

I found the reaction to be extremely ignorant and insulting.
Trust the yanks to put their ignorance on display once again.

The show was never meant meant for people who might put a different spin on things like the American fakir ...oh well Canadian, American...same thing ay?
Yes the fakir is right that Australian viewers never gave a thought to any racism. They never gave a thought to the nationality of the people under the face paint either. It was devoid from any judgement of race because it was a parody, just like a man dressing in drag. There were no thoughts of racial slurs, nor should there have been in a country that judges on the value of what they were doing.
Professionally, it was pretty bad. But in the context of ordinary people just getting up there to have a laugh, it was pretty good.
Also, the context was intended as a tribute to Micheal Jackson, much the same as there were other tributes on the show to people who had died.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Australian Racism continues to rear its head Oct09 Reply #43 - Oct 9^th, 2009 at 9:56pm We're a nation on the pisstake anyone'll do foreign, local, black or bifocal African, American, Asian or Jew. That Somers even apologised to Harry Chronic Wanker for comedy is an insult to humour.
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fakir

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Re: Australian Racism continues to rear its head Oct09
Reply #44 - Oct 10^th, 2009 at 4:06am

No point justifying behaviour by using an invented word like "pisstake". We all know what you're talking about, and I already mentioned it: "irreverent humour".

Yes I get that irreverence has been part of Australian culture and stems from the convict days. I already said it and I get it. But I repeat: you need to practice selective irreverence. You are arrogant, pure and simple, to think you can shove offensive language/behaviour in people's faces just because it is in your nature to be irreverent. People get hurt, and it is not in your place to justify your behaviour, but it would be gracious of you to try and understand the historical context for why they are hurt.

I repeated in red four times "It's not about the skit" - and a bunch of you started talking about the skit again shrugging your shoulders and wondering why it's offensive. You're not stupid, I know that much, but what is clear is that you're narrow-minded because you can't understand it (or don't care to).

So I will repeat again, and hopefully if I do it enough times, you will eventually get it:

JUST BECAUSE IT"S NOT OFFENSIVE TO YOU, DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT OFFENSIVE TO SOMEONE ELSE

JUST BECAUSE IT"S NOT OFFENSIVE TO YOU, DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT OFFENSIVE TO SOMEONE ELSE

JUST BECAUSE IT"S NOT OFFENSIVE TO YOU, DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT OFFENSIVE TO SOMEONE ELSE

JUST BECAUSE IT"S NOT OFFENSIVE TO YOU, DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT OFFENSIVE TO SOMEONE ELSE

I mean, I am on the verge of believing that some of you may in fact be stupid. Think about it: why would I expect a white Australian to find blackface offensive? Of course you don't find it damn offensive you idiot! You're smacking white and weren't enslaved by another race!

Stop justifying offensive behaviour just because it's in your culture to be an asshat, I mean "pisstake".

As for bringing up Canada's past, let me tell you what Canada is today: the PM apologized to Chinese families affected and paid out $20,000 to families who had to pay an unfair tax many decades ago. Furthermore, a few decades ago they created the Charter of Rights and Freedoms which all Canadians proudly believe in. So bringing up Canada is just going to make Australia look more embarrassing because it's the 21st century and nothing has changed as far as Australian racism is concerned. And it's no wonder since you use made up words to justify discriminatory and racist behaviour.

This pisstake or whatever you want to call it, is pure arrogance because you force it on all visible minorities who didn't inherit the convict history. Do you think we want to be called wogs/chinks/abos? You don't ask us and you don't care. It must be okay because you said so. And guess what, we minorities pretend it's okay - we play along and sometimes we even call ourselves racist names. This is a common response for people who are bullied: we play along pretending that it doesn't hurt us, because denial is sometimes better than admitting that we have to live with a shtty situation.

For me I said: I'll be damned if I am going to let my beloved children grow up in a racist society and suffer what I did. I don't want to live in denial, nor admit to having to live in a shtty situation.

Some make fun of the fact that I moved to Canada. Well why would I have loyalty to Australia when the majority can't even bring themselves to call me an "Australian". No, I'm an "Asian", I'm a "ching chong Chinaman", I'm everything else except an "Australian".

But that doesn't mean I don't have hope in Australia because I have some wonderful white Australian friends who are very good people. Australians aren't perfect and no-one expects them to be, but you have to want to evolve and become better. You have to.

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« Last Edit: Oct 10^th, 2009 at 5:42am by fakir »

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