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Prove you're Jewish or no tying the knot (Read 4690 times)
abu_rashid
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Prove you're Jewish or no tying the knot
Aug 11th, 2009 at 8:36am
 
They may say I do but what to do when the state says, no you don't?


Jason Koutsoukis, Jerusalem
August 11, 2009

FOR many Israeli Jews such as Olga Samosvatov and Nico Tarosyan, getting married is not as easy as it sounds.

To officially tie the knot, both parties must satisfy the country's Orthodox rabbinate that they are Jewish, according to traditional Jewish law.

That means proof of a Jewish mother, or documentary evidence of an Orthodox conversion to Judaism.

Because the rabbinate has a monopoly over Jewish marriages - there is no such thing as a civil marriage in Israel - anyone not recognised as Jewish must travel abroad to get a marriage licence.

Which is not so much of a problem for Ms Samosvatov, 29, who migrated to Israel from Ukraine in 1995 with her Jewish mother.

But for the man she wants to marry, proving his Jewish identity has been impossible.

''My parents did not tell me I was Jewish until I was 12 when neighbours kept painting anti-Semitic graffiti on the door of our home,'' says Mr Tarosyan, 34, who migrated to Israel from Russia in the same year as his wife-to-be.

''At one time, I was scared to go out on to the street because they were beating up Jews. I immigrated to Israel as soon as I finished college and I feel very much at home here and very safe. But this need to prove I am Jewish to the rabbis is humiliating.''

Although Mr Tarosyan's parents were Jewish, and he is an Israeli citizen who served in the Israeli army, because he has no written proof that his mother was Jewish he cannot be legally married in Israel. For their marriage to be officially recognised, the couple must obtain a civil marriage licence abroad that they can then register with Israel's Interior Ministry.

''We plan on flying to Prague in the fall,'' says Mr Tarosyan. One of more than 300,000 Israeli Jews who cannot prove their Jewish identity - most of them Russian migrants - Mr Tarosyan says he and Ms Samosvatov chose to raise awareness of their predicament by taking part in a public Jewish wedding service in Tel Aviv's Dizengoff Square last week.

The service performed by the marriage advocacy group Havaya, which conducts hundreds of private wedding services each year for Israelis not recognised as Jews by the state, was just like any other traditional Jewish wedding.

''It was important for us to get married here in Israel under the chuppah in a meaningful Jewish ceremony together with our family and friends,'' says Ms Samosvatov.

''I hope (the wedding) will serve to change the law in Israel so that people can have whatever type of Jewish wedding they want.''

According to Diti Peleg-Dagani, director of Havaya, couples such as Ms Samosvatov and Mr Tarosyan are committed Israeli citizens who are proud of their country and identify themselves as Jews.

''Yet they suffer this form of discrimination … Unless we change the law, then couples like this will have no choice but to leave Israel,'' says Ms Peleg. She estimates that thousands of couples who cannot get official recognition as Jews or who reject the Orthodox rabbinate's monopoly on marriage travel overseas for their wedding ceremonies.

Itzik Shanan, a director of the New Israel Fund, a philanthropic organisation that provides financial support to organisations such as Havaya, says the law must reflect freedom of choice in marriage.

''I was born in Israel, I speak Hebrew, I went to a Jewish school, I served in the army, and both my parents are Jewish,'' he says. ''When it came time to marry, I went abroad because I did not want to give this power to the rabbinate.

''Change doesn't seem likely under this Government, but as long as public pressure grows, more and more political bodies will understand that unless the laws are reformed, religious dogma will divide Jews irrevocably.''

Source: The Age
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abu_rashid  
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Grendel
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Re: Prove you're Jewish or no tying the knot
Reply #1 - Aug 11th, 2009 at 12:58pm
 
So Abu can Muslims marry non-Muslims?
Can non-Muslims remain non-Muslims after marriage to a Muslim?
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abu_rashid
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Re: Prove you're Jewish or no tying the knot
Reply #2 - Aug 11th, 2009 at 4:07pm
 
Quote:
So Abu can Muslims marry non-Muslims?
Can non-Muslims remain non-Muslims after marriage to a Muslim?


Yes, and yes... but what on earth has that got to do with this article? Other than being your pathetic attempt to justify/normalise everything Jewish?

This article isn't about a Jew marrying a non-Jew,, it's about the ridiculous requirement of a Jew to prove his mother was a Jew to prove he is a Jew. Sorry, but no such ridiculous requirement exists for Muslims.
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Grendel
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Re: Prove you're Jewish or no tying the knot
Reply #3 - Aug 11th, 2009 at 4:28pm
 
Did you just lie to me?   Roll Eyes

I've just read many Muslims talking about it and guess what... 

Muslim women must marry Muslim men.
Muslims can marry outside Islam as long as their partner converts.  Which is kind like saying No and No Abu.

tsk, tsk, tsk.
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Happy
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Re: Prove you're Jewish or no tying the knot
Reply #4 - Aug 11th, 2009 at 4:35pm
 
Not to mention that you cannot change to another religion and live.

But again getting off topic.
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Sprintcyclist
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Re: Prove you're Jewish or no tying the knot
Reply #5 - Aug 11th, 2009 at 9:03pm
 

on with the topic, I think it's pretty elitist and isolationist for jews to only marry jews.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Prove you're Jewish or no tying the knot
Reply #6 - Aug 11th, 2009 at 9:09pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 11th, 2009 at 9:03pm:
on with the topic, I think it's pretty elitist and isolationist for jews to only marry jews.

No different to Catholics only marrying Catholics in a Catholic Church.
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Sprintcyclist
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Re: Prove you're Jewish or no tying the knot
Reply #7 - Aug 11th, 2009 at 9:13pm
 
no different at all.

they have a wider selection (more kaffliks), but it is a religious thing.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Prove you're Jewish or no tying the knot
Reply #8 - Aug 11th, 2009 at 9:16pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 11th, 2009 at 9:13pm:
no different at all.

they have a wider selection (more kaffliks), but it is a religious thing.

An accepted reason for a Papal marriage annulment if a Catholic / Protestant marriage goes kunt-up.
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Grendel
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Re: Prove you're Jewish or no tying the knot
Reply #9 - Aug 11th, 2009 at 9:41pm
 
Not one to stick up for Catholics, but I think you'll find the church has changed a bit since the 1940s
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abu_rashid
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Re: Prove you're Jewish or no tying the knot
Reply #10 - Aug 11th, 2009 at 11:30pm
 
Quote:
Did you just lie to me?


No.

Quote:
Muslim women must marry Muslim men.


Yes, they must.

Quote:
Muslims can marry outside Islam as long as their partner converts.


If the partner converted, then it wouldn't be marrying outside Islam then would it?

Again, all this has nothing  to do with the topic. The topic is about a Jew marrying a Jew. Did you even read it? Or you just jumped head first into it, defending it before you even  knew what it was about, by trying to claim Muslims do the same thing that you assumed the article was about?

sprint,

Quote:
on with the topic, I think it's pretty elitist and isolationist for jews to only marry jews


Another silly sausage who didn't even read the article? It's about a Jews marrrying Jews, the point to the article is that they must prove their Jewishness before being allowed to marry, by proving their mother was a Jew. Please read before replying,
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abu_rashid  
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Soren
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Re: Prove you're Jewish or no tying the knot
Reply #11 - Aug 11th, 2009 at 11:44pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Aug 11th, 2009 at 4:07pm:
Quote:
So Abu can Muslims marry non-Muslims?
Can non-Muslims remain non-Muslims after marriage to a Muslim?


Yes, and yes... but what on earth has that got to do with this article? Other than being your pathetic attempt to justify/normalise everything Jewish?

This article isn't about a Jew marrying a non-Jew,, it's about the ridiculous requirement of a Jew to prove his mother was a Jew to prove he is a Jew. Sorry, but no such ridiculous requirement exists for Muslims.



What? Only Muslims are allowed to do ridiculous things now? Otherwise you'll riot?

Jews are entitled to be as ridiculous as you on occassion. For them it's a holiday from being always smarter than you.

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abu_rashid
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Re: Prove you're Jewish or no tying the knot
Reply #12 - Aug 11th, 2009 at 11:58pm
 
Took you 14 minutes to think that up?

They're obviously a lot smarter than you, since you're so willing to do their leg work for them.

So... can anyone actually respond without trying to twist this to be something related to Islam? Or do you all admit to being too intellectually deficient to even attempt such a feat?

What's that favourite word of yours sprint... is it 'deflection'?? And no doubt Calanen will be in soon to give us a little tu quoque..
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abu_rashid  
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Soren
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Re: Prove you're Jewish or no tying the knot
Reply #13 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 12:02am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Aug 11th, 2009 at 11:58pm:
Took you 14 minutes to think that up?

They're obviously a lot smarter than you, since you're so willing to do their leg work for them.

So... can anyone actually respond without trying to twist this to be something related to Islam? Or do you all admit to being too intellectually deficient to even attempt such a feat?

What's that favourite word of yours sprint... is it 'deflection'?? And no doubt Calanen will be in soon to give us a little tu quoque..


What 14 minutes?

I am not monitoring your posts - that's for the ASIO boys. I'm Mossad, remember?
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Grendel
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Re: Prove you're Jewish or no tying the knot
Reply #14 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 12:20pm
 
hey Abooo...you're so dumb you don't even realise when you contradict yourself.
In fact you're so dumb you repeat stuff I already wrote then don't realise you are arguing against yourself and proving you lied. Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Roll Eyes
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