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Emissions Bill (Read 5648 times)
tallowood
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Emissions Bill
Jul 24th, 2009 at 5:21pm
 
Turnbull lists demands for emissions Bill

Quote:
He wants the Australian scheme to offer the same protection to workers and industries as the US scheme, which is still being written.

There must be "full compensation" for heavy-polluting, trade exposed countries, until the bulk of their competitors face a similar carbon price.

Coal mines should get the same assistance as mines in Europe and the US get.

Agriculture must be excluded from the scheme, but agricultural biosequestration - storing carbon in soils and plants - must be included.

Electricity generators must get adequate compensation.

And the scheme must allow for voluntary action to reduce emissions to make a difference.


His demands seems to be sensible.
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Re: Emissions Bill
Reply #1 - Jul 28th, 2009 at 12:49am
 
Quote:
It is virtually impossible to have a rational discussion based on facts with the global warmers before they plunge off into a tsunami of figures derived from their beloved computer models, any of which can produce wildly different outcomes with minor adjustments to any one of a number of variables.

Now an Australian scientist with impeccable credentials has come forward to outline the problems with the case being stated by the politicians, who are in turn reliant on these model-addicted climate scientists.

Dr Garth Paltridge was a chief research scientist at the CSIRO and is a Fellow of the Academy of Science. His specialties are atmospheric physics and climatology. In the 1970s he was involved in the establishment of the World Climate Program and was working with the US National Climate Office in 1989 when the IPCC came into being.

For a decade, Dr Paltridge ran the Antarctic Co-operative Research Centre studying the role of Antarctica and the Southern Ocean on climate.

He is also an Emeritus Professor at the University of Tasmania. He is eminently qualified, in other words, to offer a sound opinion on climate issues.

While we can’t conclusively say whether man-made carbon dioxide emissions are contributing to climate change, Dr Paltridge has published his thoughts in a handy 111-page volume titled The Climate Caper (Connor Court Publishing).

He approaches the issue with a clarity lost to many in the scientific community and his view is that the global warming lobby has vastly overstated the case for disastrous global warming.

“Scientists,” he writes, “are told quite bluntly that is completely inappropriate for them to speak on matters of policy - unless of course they support it. Non-scientists are assumed to be technically ignorant and thereby incapable of speaking with authority on the issue.”


Dr Paltridge said the IPCC has become a permanent feature with its own bureaucracy spawning a continuing series of reports which have not changed our basic knowledge (or ignorance) of the problem.

He said one of the more frightening statements about global warming heard now is that “the scientists have spoken”, adding that “the implication of god-like infallibility is a little hard to take”.

The science of disastrous global warming, he said, is far less settled than climate scientists would have us believe.

Dr Paltridge said the experimental data simply did not exist to check the model calculations of an amplified temperature rise.

The existing models were established before the political stakes soared and it is now almost impossible for dissenters to enter the field.

His conclusion is that it has not been solidly established and it is certainly not accepted by the majority of scientists as proven fact, that global warming from increased atmospheric carbon dioxide will be large enough to be seriously noticeable - let alone large enough to be disastrous.

Last week, Energy and Resources Minister Martin Ferguson savaged the environmental lobby for demonising nuclear, gas and coal-fired energy plants fully knowing that solar and wind energy are not viable on current technology.

Yet the Rudd Government is hell-bent on pursuing its lunatic emissions trading system which will achieve nothing for the nation and is more likely to hasten the departure of energy-dependent industries to emerging nations like China and India.

Those two nations, by the way, have both indicated they are not interested in following Western nations down a path of self-deprivation.

Australia doesn’t need an ETS which will hasten a rise in unemployment and do absolutely nothing that will affect the climate of the planet.

It does, however, need a free and thorough debate though before the Government kills what remains of the nation’s industry and imposes new taxes and charges to the population, beyond those foreshadowed by the Prime Minister in his weekend warning on tougher times looming.

Dr Paltridge has spelt out a reasonable and rational opinion on global warming alarmists supported by his scientific knowledge.

The least the Government can do is have Senator Wong respond with the same clarity before blindly proceeding with legislation that can only maim the nation’s future.


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Re: Emissions Bill
Reply #2 - Jul 28th, 2009 at 3:53am
 
How does one avoid an Ad Hominem attack, of sorts, when confronted with biased puff piece journalim of the type that Grendel so dearly loves to cut and paste?
Building up this "Emeritus" Professor,(which incidentally just means retired, but is hoped to impress some into thinking it means "Super" Professor) as if he is some rare intellect who alone has unravelled the web of lies from that evil cabal of climate scientists who are imposing their secret agenda onto all.
All except the most astute observers, of course, who can see through their tissue of lies.(cough, cough)Now without having read this small book, which some less charitable people could categorise as just another sucker buy for contrarian nutjobs, I have to rely on good old google to find the actual scientific opinions published by the professor, and none but his much cited paper;
"Paltridge, G., Arking, A., and M. Pook Trends in middle- and upper-level tropospheric humidity from NCEP reanalysis data, Theoretical and Applied Climatology DOI 10.1007/s00704-009-0117-x"
appears to be of any interest at all.
Now unfortunately for his credibility as a serious scientist, this paper gained acclaim because it went with the "what if" theory, on water vapour.
The "what if" theory is that every other scientist gets it all wrong, and doesn't calculate the effects of water vapour on climate change correctly, so instead of using the actual data, it asks how different things would look if you used NOT the actual data.

Now the "what if" approach is very popular amongst denialist darlings, but not so popular with real scientists, as we saw with the recent case in the US where Monckton, yes that wacko again, had an article published in a newsletter of "The American Physical Society", which had the denialist liars proclaiming that he had published peer reviewed work in their "Journal", which showed how his opinions had garnered mainstream scientific support.
This was such a lie that the actual people the denialists claimed had peer reviewed Monckton's article, attached the following disclaimer;
"The following article has not undergone any scientific peer review. Its conclusions are in disagreement with the overwhelming opinion of the world scientific community. The Council of the American Physical Society disagrees with this article's conclusions"
yet you will still find numerous denialist sites all perpetuating the lies they have already told about this work, which always dismays me, and makes me question just how do honest people manage to affiliate themselves with such disreputable people?

So we have this retired aussie professor who has copped some flak for his earlier work on climate change, coming out with a book deriding climate scientists, and I must admit to being just a wee bit skeptical myself at this point, I am skeptical about just how much science the professor has put in his book, and how much is likely to be just the same old rehashed, and previously debunked denialist myths.

I will take the prudent course here, because I won't take the glowing praise of a denialist journo as validation for this man's scientific hypotheses, I will wait to see the opinions of real climate scientists on it when they review his work, even though we know how much denialists despise that process.

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Re: Emissions Bill
Reply #3 - Jul 28th, 2009 at 9:50am
 
Quote:
Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull has accused the Rudd Government of ''extraordinary arrogance'' for refusing to negotiate on its proposed emissions trading scheme.
...
Mr Turnbull yesterday told ABC TV he wanted to negotiate directly with the Government.

''Their refusal to do so is extraordinary arrogance and just shows the contempt that they have and how out of touch they are with the position of Australian workers,'' he said. ''If the scheme is presented in its current form on August 13 it will be voted down by the Coalition in the Senate as we've already agreed.''

''And then if the Government chooses to bring it back we may well present amendments later in the year, but the better way to deal with this is through negotiation because as I say the guts of the scheme is actually not in the Bill, it's contained in regulations.''...


Looks like the government aiming for a double dissolution.
So much for environmentalism and workers rights Sad
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Re: Emissions Bill
Reply #4 - Jul 28th, 2009 at 11:09am
 

rudds ets is losing support.
Undoubtly if the coal industry has their "compensation" doubled, support will continue to falll away.
as the costs and the possible benefits have been aken into account it is being shown as the populist whim it was.

put it alongside fuel watch, grocerywatch, ruddbank and all the rest of the ruddbish the leftards have swallowed up.


Quote:
THE Rudd government is considering doubling compensation to the coal industry to $1.5 billion to protect mining jobs under a carbon emissions trading scheme as public opinion shifts definitively against Australia committing to carbon cuts before the rest of the world.

Just as Malcolm Turnbull has turned the Liberal Party towards accepting an ETS before the global climate change conference in Copenhagen in December, there has been a turnaround in public support for delaying finalisation of a carbon emissions trading scheme.

And while most people are still prepared to pay higher costs for petrol, electricity and gas to cut greenhouse gas emissions, support drops away rapidly as the expectations rise of higher costs.

According to the latest Newspoll survey, 45 per cent of voters want the Rudd government to delay finalising its Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme until after the Copenhagen conference compared with 41 per cent who said Australia should not wait to see what other nations were doing.

Eight per cent of respondents to the survey, taken exclusively for The Australian last weekend, oppose an ETS outright, taking the total who oppose the scheme or want it delayed to 53 per cent.

In September last year, 61 per cent wanted Australia to act as soon as possible, no matter what other countries were doing, and only 33 per cent wanted to delay or opposed the scheme outright..............



http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25844778-601,00.html
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Re: Emissions Bill
Reply #5 - Jul 28th, 2009 at 11:12am
 
Well of course alarmists attack any dissent by attacking the dissenter Mozz...  

Dr Garth Paltridge was a chief research scientist at the CSIRO and is a Fellow of the Academy of Science. His specialties are atmospheric physics and climatology. In the 1970s he was involved in the establishment of the World Climate Program and was working with the US National Climate Office in 1989 when the IPCC came into being.

I'd think he has a better idea than you Mozz.

Quote:
The CSIRO Division of Atmospheric Research has become one of the most blatant examples of taxpayer funded, AGW proselytizing to be found. Bill Kininmonth, who was director of the BOM's National Climate Centre from 1986 to 1998 saw how it happened from the inside and this the story he relates.

     In the 1970s BOM and CSIRO joined forces to establish the Australian Numerical Meteorology Research Centre for the development of weather forecasting models and supporting climate research. This only lasted about a decade as hostility at the most senior levels of BOM and CSIRO Meteorological Research resulted in the bust-up of ANMRC. Numerical Weather Prediction went to BOM and CSIRO's case for numerical meteorology and climate was weakened (which was the BOM management intent---only room for one kid on the block). The wily CSIRO management saw an opportunity in AGW and went to the then Commission for the Future to make a case for a major effort in climate modelling. The Commission for the Future bought the story and established a major PR campaign to promote the AGW story (you might remember the posters of Canberra with the parliament house flag pole emerging from Lake BG!). Then Minister for the Environment Graham Richardson saw votes in the issue as a promotion of the environment protection cause. BOM, then in the Dept of Administrative Services, was recalcitrant and not supporting the scare. The government of the day then had an administrative reorganisation and brought BOM into the Dept of the Environment. The upshot was that the government gave special funding to CSIRO outside of the ARGC process to develop climate modelling, and BOM was left to get on with weather prediction modelling,

So Graham Richardson bought the CSIRO for, I think $180 millions, and once committed to the AGW story line the CSIRO was stuck with it.

Garth Paltridge, who was Director of the Antarctic CRC based in Hobart, and which was funded jointly by the CSIRO and the ARGC tells the story how one Easter he had made sceptical comments in the press about the global warming 'consensus', and returning to his desk on Easter Tuesday was threatened by a CSIRO functionary with major funding cuts to the Antarctic Research programme for which he was responsible if he uttered such blasphemy again.
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« Last Edit: Jul 28th, 2009 at 11:23am by Grendel »  
 
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Re: Emissions Bill
Reply #6 - Jul 28th, 2009 at 11:49am
 
As for your "peer review" claims I suggest you read this...

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/07/the_american_physical_society_1.html

One of many that refer to the APS and Peergate.

Quote:
An outlandish disclaimer, particularly considering that the paper had been reviewed by one of APS's own scientists, and all requested clarifications were duly incorporated by the author. 


Not that you will bother or not just dismiss it out-of-hand  as you usually do being the hypocrite you are on this subject.
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Re: Emissions Bill
Reply #7 - Jul 28th, 2009 at 1:26pm
 
I read that link, and fear that only an utter imbecile would be taken in by such spurious reasoning, and blatant denialist rhetoric.
The statement from The American Physical Society was unequivocal Grendel, The following article has not undergone any scientific peer review. Its conclusions are in disagreement with the overwhelming opinion of the world scientific community. The Council of the American Physical Society disagrees with this article's conclusionsand just because you choose to once more go along with the blatant BS from ultra conservative "Think Tanks", you should bear in mind that the rest of the rational world, does not.

NOT UNDERGONE ANY!!!

None!!

Zip!!

Nada!!

The editor just reading it does not count as peer review in the world of real scientists, but denialist have such low standards of honesty that they will try and claim it does.

Monckton's assertion that the newsletter Editor, reading his article was a form of PEER Review, is nothing but more pompous bleating from the most thoroughly discredited climate scientist of our time, and if anyone but denialist fanboys accept that ridiculous argument, then it only further damns their desired credibility as unbiased skeptics, rather than totally biased denialist schills.

You seriously need to get your head out of the denialist blogosphere for five minutes, and examine the reponses to Moncktons assertions, which are ridiculed by the wider scientific community for the crackpot "science"? it promulgates.

Now these real scientists are so concerned by the continued, and proven factual errors which Monckton pushes, as to have voiced serious concerns for either his sanity, or integrity, and many fear a pronounced lack of both are at play.

We see it quite often in the political arena, when former politicians make outlandish statements, to once more feel the glare of the public on them, in some vain attempt to revive past feelings of power or relevance, and the more charitable of Monckton's critics ascribe his bizzarre campaign as possibly motivated by such vainglorious desires, but others fear a more sinister motive, and point to blatant falsifications of graphs and data by him as evidence of that more sinister aspect to his climate debate vandalism.

His denialism is far beyond the usual ignorance commonly displayed by so many, because when he is lying, he most certainly must know it, because he is eminently qualified to understand it, to a similiar degree to many of the best climate scientists around, yet he goes so far as to draw graphs that blatantly, and falsely misrepresent the IPCC predictions, that no high school educated child could claim as an honest error.
The most recent glaring example of this was when he represented IPCC climate predictions as a straight line from 2002 to 2100, to try and exagerate the variation from the IPCC predictions of the last few years hadcrut temps.

He had to fully understand the false picture he was creating, but chose deceit, because it suited his argument.

That is modus operandi the denialist darlings come up with time, and time again, yet cry foul when they have their credibility impuned.
Well if they behaved in a more ethical manner, then real scientists would be far more likely to respect them, even if they are making ridiculous, but honest mistakes, unfortunately Monckton cannot even make that small claim.

So while it is unfortunate, the Ad Hominem attacks, are validated because of the very unethical behaviour that is pointed out in these attacks on denialist spruikers who choose deception over science.
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Re: Emissions Bill
Reply #8 - Jul 28th, 2009 at 6:31pm
 
Ahhh  why would an "article" undergo per review?
It's not a scientific paper.

Oh and once more he is better credentialed than you and I'd trust his opinion over your Mozz.

But hey you and Bozo know best right? everyone else is just an idiot.

if you read the link you would know it was talking about that council of yours lying about  things that were peer review...  der...

Once a denialist always a denialist eh Mozz..  what's it like stomping around eyes closed fingers in ears shouting lalala at the top of your voice or praising the Emperor's New Clothes.
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Reply #9 - Jul 28th, 2009 at 9:56pm
 
Well it is supremely instructive to see you worshipping at the altar of lord fruitloop, whose credentials are unquestioned, but what is most unfortunate is that his integrity does not share the same status.

He has not gained pariah status in the scientific community for posing different, or challenging views, but for debasing himself, and the whole scientific communities' integrity by positing absurd, and worse still, deliberately deceitful propaganda pieces for reasons only he, could possibly know, while the denialist puppets lap it all up, salivating like pavlovian dogs, eagerly waiting for the next regurgitated piece of rancid drivel.

Now as I said, in regard to Paltridges book,  I will wait to see what the real scientists make of it, before I make any judgement on it's merit, or lack of merit, whichever the case may be, while you lap it up as gospel, because some denialist bloggers decided to ring your bell.

Good boy Grendel, Sit, Roll Over, .......... and what comes next may be the price that too many ecosystems have to pay, as the cost of the hubris of the contrarian mindset.
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Re: Emissions Bill
Reply #10 - Jul 28th, 2009 at 10:46pm
 
you are an idiot...  I make a point and you run off at tangents name-calling and ridiculing.

Bozo would be soooo proud of you.

Fine...  be an alarmist fruitloop if that's what you want to be.  obviously you are way beyond rational discussion.

I have an open mind on the subject it's people like you and Bozo who so obviously don't.
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Reply #11 - Jul 29th, 2009 at 6:10am
 
Quote:
Oh and once more he is better credentialed than you and I'd trust his opinion over your Mozz.
_Grendel

Once more for the hard of hearing, or incredibly dense.
It is not MY opinion, it is the opinion of the overwhelming majority of climate scientists throughout the entire globe, I just happen to accept their arguments as reasoned, and reasonable.

As far as whose opinion you would trust goes, well we know very well you would agree with the local dog catcher, if he also was stupid enough to be sucked in by denialist misinformation.
The denialists don't care too much just what credentials their spokespeople have, retired weather broadcaster, oil company schill, potty peers, etc, they just need the ability to lie loudly, and longly, and know that  the dullards will lap up every deceitful word.

I am disappointed to have to say that I see you are an absolute sucker on this issue, a gullible dill who falls for the brain dead arguments of denialist scumbags.

You are also too gutless to respond to straight forward questions, which if they had been answered, would have at least allowed you to claim to be engaging the argument, but in unwavering Grendel style, you just avoid answering, evade the issue, and then abuse those who asked the question.

I just watched another denialist broadcast, where once more they put forward the ludicrous notion that all the scientists that agree with global warming do so to protect their jobs.

Now the absolute morons who spruik this denialist garbage, put forward the initial motivation for what they call the Global Warming Scam, as being that eminent scientists needed to create a world wide conspiracy to prevent them all suddenly being lined up at soup kitchens. I kid you not, that is the best motive these crackpots can invent, for what they still call a deliberate scam.

That fundamental question, which I asked you, and you refused to answer, because you know that there is no intelligent answer, so you evaded and abused instead, is something that every denialist needs to address.

Why would so many of the smartest, most committed, hard working people on the planet, need to lie about their work, or their findings?

Who amongst them initiated an intentional global scam?
Here we have an open invite to every conspirinut on the planet to join the denialist crackpots to push their personal paranoid delusions.

What was the goal of this scam?

If this claimed scam were to be successful, and global CO2 emmissions were reduced, then what terrible outcomes will we see for mankind from the devilish zionist plot?
What are the long term negative effects of reducing global CO2 emmissions?

Is there a single denialist that is not an absolute friggin arsehole?
(Honest skeptics not to be included in that derogatory generalisation)

If denialists have any faith at all in their arguments, then why do they insist on proliferating lies, and absolute misinformation, which they just repeat ad nauseum, pretending that it has not been utterly, and totally discredited.


You see the only valid arguments denialists have in their favour is that some journalists do not objectively report the issues, and facts, as presented by scientists, and they engage in alarmist language, and extremist hyperbole.

Well duhh, it is the media, that is what they do, and not on this issue alone, they do it on all issues, they talk stuff up,.
They are to objective information sharing, what real estate agents are to accurate property descriptions.

So go and shoot the messenger, but for goodness sake stop lying about the message.
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« Last Edit: Jul 29th, 2009 at 6:23am by mozzaok »  

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Re: Emissions Bill
Reply #12 - Jul 29th, 2009 at 9:28am
 
Grendel wrote on Jul 28th, 2009 at 12:49am:
Quote:
It is virtually impossible to have a rational discussion based on facts with the global warmers before they plunge off into a tsunami of figures derived from their beloved computer models, any of which can produce wildly different outcomes with minor adjustments to any one of a number of variables.

Now an Australian scientist with impeccable credentials has come forward to outline the problems with the case being stated by the politicians, who are in turn reliant on these model-addicted climate scientists.

Dr Garth Paltridge was a chief research scientist at the CSIRO and is a Fellow of the Academy of Science. His specialties are atmospheric physics and climatology. In the 1970s he was involved in the establishment of the World Climate Program and was working with the US National Climate Office in 1989 when the IPCC came into being.

For a decade, Dr Paltridge ran the Antarctic Co-operative Research Centre studying the role of Antarctica and the Southern Ocean on climate.

He is also an Emeritus Professor at the University of Tasmania. He is eminently qualified, in other words, to offer a sound opinion on climate issues.

While we can’t conclusively say whether man-made carbon dioxide emissions are contributing to climate change, Dr Paltridge has published his thoughts in a handy 111-page volume titled The Climate Caper (Connor Court Publishing).

He approaches the issue with a clarity lost to many in the scientific community and his view is that the global warming lobby has vastly overstated the case for disastrous global warming.

“Scientists,” he writes, “are told quite bluntly that is completely inappropriate for them to speak on matters of policy - unless of course they support it. Non-scientists are assumed to be technically ignorant and thereby incapable of speaking with authority on the issue.”


Dr Paltridge said the IPCC has become a permanent feature with its own bureaucracy spawning a continuing series of reports which have not changed our basic knowledge (or ignorance) of the problem.

He said one of the more frightening statements about global warming heard now is that “the scientists have spoken”, adding that “the implication of god-like infallibility is a little hard to take”.

The science of disastrous global warming, he said, is far less settled than climate scientists would have us believe.

Dr Paltridge said the experimental data simply did not exist to check the model calculations of an amplified temperature rise.

The existing models were established before the political stakes soared and it is now almost impossible for dissenters to enter the field.

His conclusion is that it has not been solidly established and it is certainly not accepted by the majority of scientists as proven fact, that global warming from increased atmospheric carbon dioxide will be large enough to be seriously noticeable - let alone large enough to be disastrous.

Last week, Energy and Resources Minister Martin Ferguson savaged the environmental lobby for demonising nuclear, gas and coal-fired energy plants fully knowing that solar and wind energy are not viable on current technology.

Yet the Rudd Government is hell-bent on pursuing its lunatic emissions trading system which will achieve nothing for the nation and is more likely to hasten the departure of energy-dependent industries to emerging nations like China and India.

Those two nations, by the way, have both indicated they are not interested in following Western nations down a path of self-deprivation.

Australia doesn’t need an ETS which will hasten a rise in unemployment and do absolutely nothing that will affect the climate of the planet.

It does, however, need a free and thorough debate though before the Government kills what remains of the nation’s industry and imposes new taxes and charges to the population, beyond those foreshadowed by the Prime Minister in his weekend warning on tougher times looming.

Dr Paltridge has spelt out a reasonable and rational opinion on global warming alarmists supported by his scientific knowledge.

The least the Government can do is have Senator Wong respond with the same clarity before blindly proceeding with legislation that can only maim the nation’s future.




This article was written by Piers Akerman, the biggest climate change sceptic in Australian media,in fact most of Akermans writing  is a whine about Labor or a whine about climate change. ENOUGH SAID.
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Re: Emissions Bill
Reply #13 - Jul 29th, 2009 at 10:35am
 
Hmmm, lets see is there any form of refutation here...
Nope.
Just name-calling and out of hand dismissal via shooting the messenger.
Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Oh and Mozz do at least read what the man says b4 given yet another pointless diatribe.
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« Last Edit: Jul 29th, 2009 at 11:14am by Grendel »  
 
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Re: Emissions Bill
Reply #14 - Jul 29th, 2009 at 2:45pm
 
Its ridiculous to even try and refute Akermans story, the bloke spends all his time trolling for what he calls "reputable scientists" who are  confusionalists while on the other side of the ledger we have thousands of scientists saying Akerman and all his cronies are wrong.

Most of the words in that article are Akermans, a climate confusionalist, how could anybody believe  what he said wasn't a continuation of his campaign to ridicule the climate change crisis.   
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