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Climate Change Discussion and Questions (Read 37744 times)
muso
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Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Jul 18th, 2009 at 6:19pm
 
This is the discussion thread for the Climate Change (explained) thread. Please hold off until I have actually fleshed out the main headings.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #1 - Jul 18th, 2009 at 6:45pm
 
Here's a nice little chestnut that wasn't planned to be released until October by the denialist camp.  Grin  It's not a bad attempt.  Grin

The warming that has occurred since the 70's was caused by the reduction in air pollution resulting from tha many Clean Air Acts that started to come in all over the world about this time. We all remember tales of the terrible smogs that used to occur before this legislation.

The cooling that occured after the war was mainly caused by industrial pollution. When this was finally cleaned up, the world started to warm up.

So the warming was actually caused by the Green movement.   

Nice try?  Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #2 - Jul 18th, 2009 at 8:10pm
 
Hasn't the cooling after the War (at a time when CO2 emissions were rising), been attributed to industrial pollution by the warmist camp also?
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #3 - Jul 18th, 2009 at 8:42pm
 
pjb05 wrote on Jul 18th, 2009 at 8:10pm:
Hasn't the cooling after the War (at a time when CO2 emissions were rising), been attributed to industrial pollution by the warmist camp also?


It's not nearly as simplistic as that - Some of the cooling was due to increased aerosol concentration, and some was due to reduced solar irradiance. The reduction in aerosols was not enough to account for the warming that has been observed in the last 50 odd years. I'll explain the various contributions when I come to it.

When you say the 'Warmist Camp', you mean virtually every government in the world and every national or international scientific organisation, including the Australian Bureau of Meteorology, Geoscience Australia and numerous others. It's a bit of a misnomer to say 'warmist camp' in that context..
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #4 - Jul 18th, 2009 at 9:01pm
 
Soren wrote:

Quote:
I have enormous respect for science but I believe it is incapable of encompassing such an enourmous topic as the entire climate of the planet in the context of the solar system. It would be possibly comparable to understanding how the brain functions - the variables and interpretations are endless.

I had a look at sunspots and within 5 minutes I found scientific reference to both of these:
1. there has been significantly greater sunspot activity in the second half of the last century than in the first.
2. Last year, it was expected that it would have been hotting up after a quiet spell. But instead it hit a 50-year low in solar wind pressure, a 55-year low in radio emissions, and a 100-year low in sunspot activity. Astronimers are baffled.


It wasn't a very good scientific reference, Soren. It's 'arse about' as the "lower classes might say"(not my saying). Generally sunspots are associated with flares. The more sunspots you have, the higher the effect on solar activity, but the actual effect is very limited. It only changes solar irradiance by a factor of 0.01%.

Astronimers (sic) are definitely not baffled - at least they would certainly be baffled by that very pseudoscientific claptrap that you quoted.
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Re: Grendel: man cannot control the climate
Reply #5 - Jul 24th, 2009 at 7:41pm
 
Muso:
Quote:
Here I'll  attempt to explain Climate Change in simple terms as far as possible.

My approach will be to explain things one step at a time.

1. Climate change is happening and humans are contributing to it.


Not so fast.

It is very Goebbelsian to conflate these two clauses. And to say 'contribute to' rather than 'cause'. There is an awful lot of looseness and elision here, the very root of scepritcism.  In fact I suggest that it is precisely this sort of fast talking that has been turning the tide against alarmists or activists or whatever the term may be.

This sort of quick footwork allows the advocates (at least in their own minds)  to produce a multitude of graphs showng CO2 and temperature but not any other variable and temperature. Very, very unscientific. Propagandistic, I think, is the technical term.

Let us be straight. Are we causing warming or are we constributing to it? If the latter - how much? What else contributes? How much? All of a sudden it's all much, much harder. And I have simply used your terminology.

I say this, as always, in a caring and nurturing way and in no way mean that you, Muso, are necessarily aware of this little manoeuvre. But there it is.






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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #6 - Jul 24th, 2009 at 8:21pm
 
Well - if you look past the actual headings, I have expanded the headings into individual discussions.

You ask - how much is the actual contribution. Well the graph on post 4 of the sticky thread explains that better than I can.

Some forcings have a negative (cooling) effect, such as aerosols - in other words soot etc.  Some forcings are positive (warming).

The main input is of course, the sun.

I might leave it at that. I'm in the middle of packing, and I really want to write up some more on the Climate Change explained thread before I go.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #7 - Oct 18th, 2009 at 8:38am
 
What is the right temperature for the Earth?


What is the right carbon dioxide content of the atmosphere?


How should enormous economic pain be imposed?


Why is carbon dioxide increasing, yet temperature is decreasing?


Why have climate models not been run backwards to replicate all we know?


Why have major Earth processes been omitted from models?



http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ockhamsrazor/stories/2009/2716078.htm#transcript

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #8 - Oct 18th, 2009 at 9:01am
 
Those questions are too hard to answer for someone who believes in global warming Soren - especially the question about using early evidence of the earth's climate changes. I still can't even figure out Muso's graphs - they span such a short period.

Atmospheric temperature has remained almost unchanged, although it may now be decreasing - hence the scientists have come to the conclusion that we're in for a cooling period.

Ground temperature is how they base their theory on man made global warming. This is increasing due to the continual logging and increased development/overpopulation- which is also why carbon dioxide levels are increasing.

I suppose while we're alive and breathing - this must be the right temperature for earth. Nature will determine when this planet is no longer sustainable for us humans and there's nothing we can do about it. Certainly an ETS isn't going to do anything, except line pockets. It's about time we seriously considered global population control.



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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #9 - Oct 18th, 2009 at 10:53am
 
The questions are not too hard to answer. I'll give it a go later today.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #10 - Oct 18th, 2009 at 2:39pm
 
What is the right carbon dioxide content of the atmosphere?

Actually it's more a question of what can we reasonably achieve in order to reduce the risk of considerable social and economic disruption.

I will answer the original question, but first I'll provide an explanation of the answer. Let's put the focus fairly and squarely on to human habitation of the Earth. The whole problem is a question of human survival. If we fail to reduce carbon emissions to such a level that will prevent global mean temperatures from increasing 2 degrees C, an enormous human tragedy on an unprecedented scale will start to unfold.

First, we must look at the very lengthy history of this planet.

The Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old, however, human beings have been on the planet for only 0.004% of that history; modern Homo sapiens evolved around 200,000 years ago. Dramatic climate changes have indeed occurred in the Earth’s long history. Early humans experienced, and a fraction of them survived, some of these dramatic climate events.

However, only during the last 12,000 years, a period in which the Earth’s climate has been comparatively warm and stable, have humans really thrived.

The scientific evidence today overwhelmingly indicates that allowing the emission of greenhouse gases from human activities to continue
unchecked constitutes a significant threat to the well-being and continued development of contemporary society. The knowledge that human activities are influencing the climate gives contemporary society the responsibility to act. It necessitates redefinition of humanity’s relationship with the Earth and for the sake of the well-being of society,  it requires management of those human activities that interfere with the climate.

Let's get back to the original question of what is the right, or optimum carbon dioxide content of the atmosphere. Well a simplistic answer to that is what would the atmospheric CO2 concentration be today if the fossil fuel combustion had not occurred. The answer is round about 200ppm. At that level, there would certainly be no impending crisis.

Clearly that's quite an optimistic target. To set a more realistic target  requires recognition of the various risks that present themselves as the atmospheric concentration of CO2 increases. These are Social and economic disruptions that will occur on our best knowledge as the effects of increasing atmospheric CO2 start to take effect.

The risk assessment takes into account such things as increasing ocean levels, the effects on major food crops, the effects on ocean ecosystems and food chains - particularly for economically important species.    

Obviously it is not possible to stop all polluting activities immediately. The economic effects on the world would be enormous, so we arrive at a compromise of limiting the temperature rsie to 2 degrees C.

Of course the ultimate answer is a gradual decarbonisation of the world economy to the stage where we no longer have to rely on fossil fuels.  

The global carbon dioxide level corresponding to that 2 degrees C 'guardrail' is around 450ppm CO2 equivalents.

To provide a more rigorous explanation, atmospheric CO2 concentration should not exceed 400 ppm CO2 if the global temperature rise is to be kept within 2.0 – 2.4°C. Today, the CO2 concentration is around 385ppm, and is rising by 2 ppm per year. The 2007 concentration of all greenhouse gases, both CO2 and non-CO2 gases, was about 463 ppm CO2-equivalents. Adjusting this concentration for the cooling effects of aerosols yields a CO2-equivalent concentration of 396 ppm. A recent study estimates that a concentration of 450 ppm CO2-equivalents (including the cooling effect of aerosols) would give a 50-50 chance of limiting the temperature rise to 2°C or less.


What is the right temperature for the Earth?


Using the explanation above, we're talking about 2 degrees above pre-industrial temperatures. Again it's a question of what can we reasonably achieve to reduce the risk of considerable social and economic disruption.
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« Last Edit: Oct 18th, 2009 at 3:15pm by muso »  

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #11 - Oct 18th, 2009 at 2:48pm
 
Quote:
More recent scientific research indicate that even with temperature rises less than 2degrees C, impacts can be significant, although some societies could cope with some of these impacts through pro-active adaptation strategies. Beyond 2 degrees C, the possibilities for adaptation of society and ecosystems rapidly decline with an increasing risk of social disruption through health impacts, water shortages and food insecurity.

One of the best indicators of the impacts of climate change on societies is human health and well-being. The observed temperature rise to date, about 0.7degrees C, is already affecting health in many societies; the increasing number of extreme weather events, such as heat waves, floods, and storms, is leading to a growing toll of deaths and injuries from climate-related natural disasters. Beyond the direct impacts on health, climate change also affects the underlying determinants of health – quantity and quality of food, water resources, and ecological control of disease vectors.


(From the Copenhagen Synthesis Report 2009)
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #12 - Oct 18th, 2009 at 2:53pm
 
How should enormous economic pain be imposed?

Well if you want the maximum economic pain to be imposed, simply do nothing.

It's probably best to quote directly from the Copenhagen Synthesis Report which gives a fairly detailed Economic Synopsis:

Quote:
Emissions pricing is the main economic tool for controlling greenhouse gas emissions. The two main pricing instruments are a carbon tax (setting the price), and emissions trading (setting the quantity, ‘cap and trade’), with hybrid schemes also possible. Most schemes planned and in place use emissions trading, sometimes with elements of price
control. Taxes and trading perform differently under uncertainty, and debates continue among economists over which approach is preferable, but the fundamental principle is ,the same: a financial penalty is placed on emitting greenhouse gases and transmitted
through markets, creating an incentive to cut emissions. Businesses and consumersshift to lower-emissions processes or products because it saves them money. The overall response is cost effective because the lowest cost options are used first.

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #13 - Oct 18th, 2009 at 3:03pm
 
Why is carbon dioxide increasing, yet temperature is decreasing?

Natural variability in the climate is the simplistic answer to that. However the latest results that take into account total heat load (ocean plus land) show that the overall heat of the planet is actually increasing. As you can see from previous graphs, neither NASA GISS nor Hadley data show any such decrease in temperature trends when applied across a running average period of 15 years. (which is greater than the Solar Cycle period) 

Global mean temperatures increase and decrease according to annual cycles and other well defined cycles such as the solar cycle and the ENSO cycles etc.  These are well understood. That natural variability is currently superimposed on an exponential increase in global carbon dioxied, followed fairly closely by an exponential rise in global heat.  

Obviously regional studies are not relevant. Global Warming is not uniform. There is considerably more warming in certain parts of the world than in others. The Arctic and the Antarctic Peninsula have shown considerably higher temperature increases than in certain other parts of the world.  Some parts of the US for example have actually remained relatively unchanged.  This is totally expected.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #14 - Oct 18th, 2009 at 3:06pm
 
Why have climate models not been run backwards to replicate all we know?

That's a pretty stupid question actually. I'll come back to it if anybody is really interested, but it demonstrates a total ignorance of the laws of thermodynamics.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #15 - Oct 18th, 2009 at 3:10pm
 
Why have major Earth processes been omitted from models?

Which Earth processes are we talking about here? A common misconception is that climate models fail to account for natural climate variability. Most modern Climate models already account for ENSO and Solar cycle variations to some extent.

Most modern climate modelling systems account for a great deal more than the models of 10 years ago. To address this question requires more detail of specifically which major Earth processes have allegedly been omitted.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #16 - Oct 18th, 2009 at 6:35pm
 
During the current interglacial, sea level has risen 130 metres in 14,000 years, a rate far higher than the most exaggerated model for human-induced global warming.

During the last interglacial, there were a number of exceptionally cold snaps and temperature rose by as much as 20-degrees Celsius in 15 years after one of these periods. There were also alternating cool, windy, dry times and warm, wet times.

Some 6,000 years ago sea level was 2 metres higher than at present and it was at least 3-degrees warmer than now.

Cool times led to desertification and the collapse of great civilisations and warm times led to a thriving of humans.

The temperature and rate of temperature change in the Minoan, Roman and Mediaeval Warmings were far greater than today.

In the Roman Warming, grapes and citrus were grown as far north as Hadrian's Wall.

The Roman Warming came to a sudden end in the middle of the 6th century AD, due to a coincidence of solar, extraterrestrial and volcanic activities.

The Mediaeval Warming commenced with a very active sun.

Between 900 and 1300 AD, it was warmer, times were prosperous and generational wealth was used to build the great cathedrals, monasteries and universities of Europe.

The Vikings colonised Newfoundland and called in Vinland. No grapes could survive the cool climate of Newfoundland today.

In the Mediaeval Warming, wheat, barley, sheep and cattle were grown in Greenland in places now covered by ice.

Atmospheric temperature was at least 5-degrees warmer than at present.

A solar change in 1280 AD led to the Little Ice Age.

It took 23 years to change from the Mediaeval Warming to the Little Ice Age.

There was crop failure, starvation and murderous climate refugees roamed Europe.

The stressed population succumbed to the plague and there was massive depopulation.

During times of decreased sunspot activity, it was far colder, there was civil unrest, starvation, ice-fairs on rivers and increased cloudiness.

The Little Ice Age ended about 1850. Since then, the Earth has warmed at the same rate from 1860-1880, 1910-1940 and 1975-1998.

Atmospheric temperature has been decreasing in the 21st century, despite an increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide.

The climate models show that temperature should have been increasing in the 21st century.

This disconnect again shows that carbon dioxide does not drive temperature and that models of very complex chaotic natural systems should be viewed with great caution.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #17 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 7:28am
 
You are reciting some of these items parrot-fashion from Plimer (I say items, and not facts)  just as he recited them parrot fashion from denialist sites. Some of the things listed are factual, but irrelevant.

Regional warming episodes are irrelevant in the scheme of things. The medieval warming is just an example of such an episode.  I already talked about regional warming in the last few posts. You need to pay attention.

Watch this video all the way through until complete, and take two aspirins. The aspirins will help that hangover that Helian insists you have.  Tongue  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrKfz8NjEzU

OK, now the maths. 6 metres in 100 years is 0.06metres per year.

130 metres per 14,000 years is 0.009metres per year. My 0.06 beats your 0.009 metres by a factor of seven or so


Do you just cut and paste these things without checking the data? I hereby demolish your mouldy old opening remark. Now please bury it back where you found it, and don't bring it back again.  Roll Eyes

Can I say it now? Aw just this once.

Liar Liar , pants on fire!
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #18 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 8:49am
 
Yes, I just copied it without comment from your ABC... Smiley


Shurely shome mishtake.


Re maths - you assume a steady, even rate of change - again. The modeller's curse. Nothing has aver changed steadily, at a even rate over 1. 10, 100 years, let alone 14,000.

Sorry, pants remain well pressed, dry and cool.
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muso
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #19 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 8:57am
 
In other words - you don't know what the rate of change was. In that case, I'll do some research for you.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #20 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 11:21am
 
muso wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 8:57am:
I'll do some research for you.

Don't do it for me, do it for your country.  Smiley
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #21 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 1:53pm
 
Well I did my research - and guess what?  Plimer is a liar, and you are a liar by association by assuming what he said was correct. Not only did he tell a major furfie in terms of the rate of change of Sea level, but (
wait there's more
) he overestimated the actual change in sea level (130 metres over 14,000 years) It's more like 120 metres over 20,000 years, which is something you can see from the attached graph. Now why am I not surprised?

Now in case you're wondering about the source - it's from the blog of that Princess of Denialism Jenny Marohasy.  Grin (but I checked the data - it's right)

The MWP points are brief period of seawater rise due to rapid meltwater releases following the last glacial period. The current sea level rise is mostly due to increasing ocean temperature.

Now they can't both be right. In this case, Jenny actually got it right whilst Plimer got it wrong.

Maybe it's time to get out that fire extinguisher again.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #22 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 1:59pm
 
The maximum slope of that graph equates to 0.008 metres per annum.

The current trend is about 0.06 metres per annum, as shown in the graph below from the Copenhagen Sythesis Report.

You may also note that the current rate of sea level change fits in with the more extreme predictions of IPCC 4AR (6 metres by 2100). It follows very closely with the "Holy Sh1t!" scenario.

Quote:
Figure 1
Change in sea level from 1970 to 2008, relative to the sea level at 1990. The solid lines are based on observations smoothed to remove the effects of interannual variability (light lines connect data points). Data in most recent years are obtained via satellite based sensors. The envelope of IPCC projections is shown for comparison; this includes the broken lines as individual projections and the shading as the uncertainty around the projections.
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sealevel.jpg (15 KB | 52 )
sealevel.jpg

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #23 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:06pm
 
muso wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 1:53pm:
he overestimated the actual change in sea level (130 metres over 14,000 years) It's more like 120 metres over 25,000 years.


Time to get out that fire extinguisher again.



Wow, 10 metres, less than 10% difference,  between the estimates for difference over 14-25 millenia!! Head for the hills!!


I agree, it is a major issue whether you are 120 or 130 metres under water.

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #24 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:08pm
 
I thankyou for explaining all of this Muso, it can get confusing with the denialist camp doing their best to undermine the scientific facts with lies.
People like Plimer and those that believe his lies care more about their hip pocket than they do about our earths future.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #25 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:11pm
 
muso wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 1:59pm:
 


The current trend is about 0.06 metres per annum, as shown in the graph below from the Copenhagen Sythesis Report.




It is racist to imply that the graph says anything of the sort. What it does shows is 0.04 and 0.06 metres over a 20 year period (1970-90 and 1990- 2008 approx, respectively).
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #26 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:15pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:06pm:
muso wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 1:53pm:
he overestimated the actual change in sea level (130 metres over 14,000 years) It's more like 120 metres over 25,000 years.


Time to get out that fire extinguisher again.



Wow, 10 metres, less than 10% difference,  between the estimates for difference over 14-25 millenia!! Head for the hills!!


I agree, it is a major issue whether you are 120 or 130 metres under water.


Who are you? And what have you done with Grendel? Grin
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #27 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:18pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:06pm:
muso wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 1:53pm:
he overestimated the actual change in sea level (130 metres over 14,000 years) It's more like 120 metres over 25,000 years.


Time to get out that fire extinguisher again.



Wow, 10 metres, less than 10% difference,  between the estimates for difference over 14-25 millenia!! Head for the hills!!


I agree, it is a major issue whether you are 120 or 130 metres under water.




Gloss-over alert!   No - not 10%. Notice that the number of years is  different. It's actually more like 80 metres over the 14,000 year span.

I make that a 75% error, not a 10% error.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #28 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:23pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:11pm:
It is racist to imply that the graph says anything of the sort. What it does shows is 0.04 and 0.06 metres over a 20 year period (1970-90 and 1990- 2008 approx, respectively).


Don't be silly now. Grin
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #29 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:24pm
 
Quote:
I thankyou for explaining all of this Muso, it can get confusing with the denialist camp doing their best to undermine the scientific facts with lies.
People like Plimer and those that believe his lies care more about their hip pocket than they do about our earths future.



I really don't know what motivates Plimer. It can't be money. The best I can judge is that he's just senile.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #30 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:26pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:15pm:
Who are you? And what have you done with Grendel? Grin


He's Soren of Borg. Grendel has been assimilated.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #31 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:48pm
 
muso wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:18pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:06pm:
muso wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 1:53pm:
he overestimated the actual change in sea level (130 metres over 14,000 years) It's more like 120 metres over 25,000 years.


Time to get out that fire extinguisher again.



Wow, 10 metres, less than 10% difference,  between the estimates for difference over 14-25 millenia!! Head for the hills!!


I agree, it is a major issue whether you are 120 or 130 metres under water.




Gloss-over alert!   No - not 10%. Notice that the number of years is  different. It's actually more like 80 metres over the 14,000 year span.

I make that a 75% error, not a 10% error.




OK, 120 OR 130 metres ever a bloody long pre-historic time.


Is this a 5 minute argument or the full half hour?

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #32 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:54pm
 
muso wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:24pm:
[quote author=athiest link=1247905174/15#24 date=1255928919]I thankyou for explaining all of this Muso, it can get confusing with the denialist camp doing their best to undermine the scientific facts with lies.
People like Plimer and those that believe his lies care more about their hip pocket than they do about our earths future.



I really don't know what motivates Plimer. /quote]

So now Robyn Williams and his Science Unit at your ABC are putting senile professors on air?



Quote:
The best I can judge is that he's just senile.


Mebbe he has a point or two. Has that ever crossed your mind?


Or... would that be racist?

Smiley
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #33 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 4:41pm
 
muso wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:26pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:15pm:
Who are you? And what have you done with Grendel? Grin


He's Soren of Borg. Grendel has been assimilated.

Ah... That explains the two heads;D
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #34 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 6:09pm
 
Borg? Two heads?

Sorry fellas, you are passing the ball to people only you can see.

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #35 - Oct 19th, 2009 at 10:51pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 6:09pm:
Borg? Two heads?

Sorry fellas, you are passing the ball to people only you can see.


'There are none so blind' ...
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #36 - Oct 20th, 2009 at 8:02am
 
Soren wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:54pm:
So now Robyn Williams and his Science Unit at your ABC are putting senile professors on air?



Robyn Williams did the only fair thing that was open to a civilised cricket playing gentleman. He gave Plimer a chance to defend himself after hosting several heated attacks on his book.

Did you notice how little Robyn Williams actually said though during that lengthy and embarassing monologue (embarrassing for Plimer)?

He well and truly bit his tongue.  It must be tough being a journalist and a scientist, but as far as I know, the decision was made for him.

It's quite clear from previous Science Shows where he stands.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #37 - Oct 20th, 2009 at 8:38am
 
Soren wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:54pm:
Mebbe he has a point or two. Has that ever crossed your mind?



I looked very closely at the transcript, and no - he did not make a single point that was relevant to the issue.

I don't think anybody else in recorded history has elicited such a strong response from Australian scientists. These people are generally known for being unflappable. The greatest reaction has been from his own field of Geology and Earth Science.

Kurt Lambeck, earth scientist and president of the Australian Academy of Science:

Quote:
To give his arguments a semblance of respectability the book is replete with references. But the choice is very selective. Plimer will quote, for example, a paper that appears to support his argument, but then he does not mention that the conclusions therein have been completely refuted in subsequent papers. Elsewhere, he refers to a specific question raised in published work but does not mention that this issue has subsequently been resolved, has been incorporated in subsequent analyses, and is no longer relevant. Or he simply misquotes the work or takes it out of context. An example of this is a reference to my own in the Mediterranean where he gives quite a misleading twist to what we actually concluded.


Climate scientist Barry Brook
Quote:
It may well be held up as an example for the future. An example of just how deluded and misrepresentative the pseudo-sceptical war against science really was in the first decade of the 21st century.


Earth scientist Andrew Glikson

Quote:
The book negates the well documented consistent relations between climate and carbon gases, which through the Earth’s history resulted in temperature changes in the range of several degrees C , including abrupt climate changes and related mass extinction of species .


I'll go over the post size limit if I quote many more, but you just need to Google Plimer and the following for more damning evidence:

Climate scientist David Karoly
Astronomer Michael Ashley
Geologist and Planetary scientist Malcolm Walter

There are many others from overseas.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #38 - Oct 20th, 2009 at 9:24am
 
It should be interesting when Plimer visits the UK in November. George Monbiot has plans for a face to face debate.

Here are Monbiot's preliminary questions:

1. The first graph in your book (Figure 1, page 11) shows global temperatures, as measured by the Hadley Centre (HadCRUT), falling by 0.3C between 2007 and 2008. In reality the fall recorded by the HadCRUT3 data series is 0.089C.

How do you explain the discrepancy between the HadCRUT3 figure and your claim?

2. Figure 3 (page 25) is a graph purporting to show that most of the warming in the 20th Century took place before 1945, and was followed by a period of sharp cooling. You cite no source for it, but it closely resembles the global temperature graph in the first edition of Martin Durkin's film The Great Global Warming Swindle. Durkin later changed the graph after it was shown to have been distorted by extending the timeline.

In your book it remains unchanged.

Tim Lambert has reproduced the graph here.

a. What is the source for the graph you used?

b. Where was it first published?

c. Whose figures does it use?

d. How do you explain the alteration of both the curves and the timeline?

3. You maintain that:

    "the last two years of global cooling have erased nearly thirty years of temperature increase."

(page 25)

Again you do not provide a reference. As you can see here, the Met Office HadCRUT3 series shows that this claim is untrue.

a. Please give the source for your claim.

b. How do you reconcile it with the published data?

4. In your discussion of global temperature trends, you maintain that:

    "NASA now states that […] the warmest year was 1934." (p99)

a. Are you aware that this applies only to the United States?

b. Was this a mistake or did you deliberately confuse these two datasets?

5. Discussing climate trends in the Arctic, you state that:

    "the sea ice has expanded" (p198).

Again, you give no reference.

a. Please give a source for this claim.

b. How do you explain the discrepancy between this claim and the published data?

6. You state that:

    "If the current atmospheric CO2 content of 380 ppmv were doubled to 760 ppmv […] [a]n increase of 0.5C is likely" (p366).

Again you give no source. Please provide a reference for this claim.

7. You claim that:

    "About 98% of the greenhouse effect in the atmosphere is due to water vapour." (p370).

Ian Enting says:

    "In some cases the numbers given by Plimer are exaggerated to such an extent as to imply that without water vapour, Earth's temperature would be below absolute zero - a physical impossibility."

He explains this as follows.

You state:

    "The Earth has an average surface temperature of about 15C […] If the atmosphere had no CO2, far more heat would be lost from Earth and the average surface temperature would be -3C." (p366)

Enting says:

    "The implication of attributing 18C of warming to CO2 while saying […] 'About 98% of the greenhouse effect in the atmosphere is due to water vapour' is to imply that in the absence of CO2 and H2O, the temperature would be 900C lower, i.e. well below the physical limit of absolute zero."

Again you give no source.

a. Please provide a reference for your claim about water vapour.

b. Please explain how your two statements (98% of the greenhouse effect is caused by water vapour and 18C can be attributed to CO2) can both be true.

8. You cite a paper by Charles F Keller as the source of your claim that:

    "satellites and radiosondes show that there is no global warming." (p382)

This is what the paper says:

    "The big news [is] the collapse of the climate critics' last real bastion, namely that satellites and radiosondes show no significant warming in the past quarter century. Figuratively speaking, this was the center pole that held up the critics' entire "tent." Their argument was that, if there had been little warming in the past 25 years or so, then what warming was observed would have been within the range of natural variations with solar forcing as the major player. Further, the models would have been shown to be unreliable since they were predicting warming that was not happening. But now both satellite and in-situ radiosonde observations have been shown to corroborate both the surface observations of warming and the model predictions."

a. How did you manage to reverse the findings of this paper?

b. Was it a mistake or was it deliberate misrepresentation?

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #39 - Oct 20th, 2009 at 9:24am
 
Monbiot's questions continued:

9. You state:

    "The Hadley Centre in the UK has shown that warming stopped in 1998" (p391).

Again you produce no reference.

This is what the Hadley Centre says:

    "The evidence is clear – the long-term trend is that global temperatures are rising, and humans are largely responsible for this rise. Global warming does not mean that each year will be warmer than the last. Natural phenomena will mean that some years will be much warmer and others cooler. You only need to look at 1998 to see a record-breaking warm year caused by a very strong El Niño. In the last couple of years, the underlying warming is partially masked caused by a strong La Niña. Despite this, 11 of the last 13 years were the warmest ever recorded. […] Over the last ten years, global temperatures have warmed more slowly than the long-term trend. But this does not mean that global warming has slowed down or even stopped. It is entirely consistent with our understanding of natural fluctuations of the climate within a trend of continued long-term warming."

a. Please give a reference for your claim.

b. How do you explain the discrepancy between your account of what the Hadley Centre says and theirs?

10. You state that:

    "Volcanoes produce more CO2 than the world's cars and industries combined." (p413)

This is similar to the claim in The Great Global Warming Swindle, whose narrator maintained that:

    "Volcanoes produce more CO2 each year than all the factories and cars and planes and other sources of man-made carbon dioxide put together."

But you do not provide a source for it.

This is what the US Geological Survey says:

    "Human activities release more than 130 times the amount of CO2 emitted by volcanoes".

a. Please provide a reference for your claim.

b. How do you explain the discrepancy between this claim and the published data?

11. You maintain that:

    "termite methane emissions are 20 times potent than human CO2 emissions". (p472)

Please provide a source for this claim.

Thank you,

Yours Sincerely,

George Monbiot
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #40 - Oct 20th, 2009 at 9:38am
 
Well, if it's Monbiot then Plimer has the debate in the bag.


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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #41 - Oct 20th, 2009 at 9:40am
 
muso wrote on Oct 20th, 2009 at 8:02am:
Soren wrote on Oct 19th, 2009 at 3:54pm:
So now Robyn Williams and his Science Unit at your ABC are putting senile professors on air?



Robyn Williams did the only fair thing that was open to a civilised cricket playing gentleman. He gave Plimer a chance to defend himself after hosting several heated attacks on his book.

Did you notice how little Robyn Williams actually said though during that lengthy and embarassing monologue (embarrassing for Plimer)?

He well and truly bit his tongue.  It must be tough being a journalist and a scientist, but as far as I know, the decision was made for him.

It's quite clear from previous Science Shows where he stands.



Really? Fascinating.

Now even your BBC is at it - through clenched teeth, no doubt.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8299079.stm


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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #42 - Oct 20th, 2009 at 10:25am
 
If you read the whole article, you'll see that it's not actually defending climate pseudosceptics at all. It's attempting to give journalistic balance (in this case totally misguided)

Remember the bumpy road analogy going up the hill? It might have its bumps, but basically the road is going uphill.

A pseudo sceptic might say that because of the corrugations, the car is actually going downhill for half of the time.

Just to prove that I'm not very politically correct, it's a bit like the Irishman who was asked to check the car indicators. Is it working Paddy?

....yes..no..yes..no..yes..no........
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #43 - Oct 20th, 2009 at 10:38am
 
That's racists.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #44 - Oct 20th, 2009 at 10:38am
 
Soren wrote on Oct 20th, 2009 at 9:38am:
Well, if it's Monbiot then Plimer has the debate in the bag.




You obviously did not read the questions. Grin 

Plimer is a dead duck. He's also a major joke among academics by the way.

These are major howlers in his book.  If you can't see that, you probably need new reading glasses.

So roast duck will definitely be on the menu in London but it will probably be over-cooked.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #45 - Oct 20th, 2009 at 10:43am
 
Soren wrote on Oct 20th, 2009 at 10:38am:
That's racists.


Yes, the Irish are very racist. They just introduced new blasphemy legislation.
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Reply #46 - Oct 20th, 2009 at 10:53am
 
So where's Keith Windschuttle when you need him?
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #47 - Oct 20th, 2009 at 11:23am
 
Soren wrote on Oct 20th, 2009 at 10:53am:
So where's Keith Windschuttle when you need him?


Maybe they've sent him to Ireland.  Cool
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #48 - Oct 25th, 2009 at 6:15am
 
Soren wrote on Oct 20th, 2009 at 9:38am:
Well, if it's Monbiot then Plimer has the debate in the bag.



Soren,

If you just read through the line by line refutal of Heaven and Earth by Ian Enting, it would become patently obvious that Plimer is either lying or he's suffering from an advanced stage of brain rot. I'd suggest the former.

You simply don't alter graph data to win arguments and retain any sense of credibility.  The only reason Plimer would win such an argument would be to refuse to answer the difficult questions entirely and bring up a new string of totally false data. Of course, that's exactly what they do.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #49 - Oct 25th, 2009 at 4:20pm
 
Guys, I'm having a really hard time trying to bring myself to care about climate change. While more and more I'm realizing that the science behind it is valid and that it is probably happening as a result of human industrial activity, it only takes twenty seconds of looking at the kind of people who are complaining about it all the time to make me want to bag the hell out of them. Is there anybody who can help me or am I right to believe that it's basically happening but there's nothing that can be really done about it at present and its prophets of doom are just incorrigble faggots?
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Reply #50 - Oct 25th, 2009 at 6:53pm
 
Quote:
Guys, I'm having a really hard time trying to bring myself to care about climate change. While more and more I'm realizing that the science behind it is valid and that it is probably happening as a result of human industrial activity, it only takes twenty seconds of looking at the kind of people who are complaining about it all the time to make me want to bag the hell out of them. Is there anybody who can help me or am I right to believe that it's basically happening but there's nothing that can be really done about it at present and the its prophets of doom are just incorrigble faggots?



Yeah, I feel your pain.

People banging on about antropogenic climate change (used to be global warming) are by and large insufferable. (Not you, muso)

Does climate change? Yes - what doesn't?

Is it caused by human carbon emission? No.

Is unlimited carbon emission a good thing? No.

Is it worth switching to renewable, clean energy, regardless? Of course.

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Reply #51 - Oct 26th, 2009 at 8:21am
 
Quote:
Guys, I'm having a really hard time trying to bring myself to care about climate change. While more and more I'm realizing that the science behind it is valid and that it is probably happening as a result of human industrial activity, it only takes twenty seconds of looking at the kind of people who are complaining about it all the time to make me want to bag the hell out of them. Is there anybody who can help me or am I right to believe that it's basically happening but there's nothing that can be really done about it at present and its prophets of doom are just incorrigble faggots?


Have a look on the 'New value of Pi' thread and you'll be encouraged by such manly figures as Richard Lindzen and Christopher Monckton (aka the Potty Peer) with his pink House of Lords logo. Both of them will be quick to reassure you that there is nothing to worry about.

There is a lot that we can do about it, but it's not a simple as some protesters think. Maybe they believe that we can just turn off all coal powered power stations overnight, but some of us have a sense of reality.

Maybe some appear to be total noobs, but if you think about the people in your high school class who actually went out to become doctors and solicitors, they were probably the nerds.

Like it or not, the technocrats - the people who actually know what's going on and the people who have the real say, happen to be nerds. They get into politics too.

No personality? No problem. Just employ a publicity agent. They can advise you to do all kinds of things to improve your popularity with the hip members of society who just like to go out, get drunk, stoned or both, achieve absolutely nothing in life while having a totally epic time, then boast about it on Facebook.  

Slip into a New York strip club, swear at staff occasionally and drop a few really ocker expressions from time to time, and even if you can speak faultless grammatically correct Mandarin, just make sure you learn the ocker expressions carefully and with the right emphasis to make you look like a normal aussie. An intelligent self-respecting nerd could even become PM of Australia by following those simple rules.  Tongue
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #52 - Oct 26th, 2009 at 11:31am
 
Soren wrote on Oct 25th, 2009 at 6:53pm:
Does climate change? Yes - what doesn't?

Is it caused by human carbon emission? No.



Soren,

I could post any one of numerous reports to back this up. This one shows a plot of Ocean pH over the last ~24 million years. I don't know if I have to explain pH, but it's related to acidification.

Have a look at natural variation in Ocean pH. It's just like any graph of natural variation - things change - slowly. Climate changes - slowly too.  Now look at the line that indicates our progress towards 2100. We're already on that line.

Do you notice anything unusual? Is it all just natural variation, or would you say that the vertical line that sticks out like dogs' gonads just might be different?

Quote:
I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more. ...

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ocean_pH.jpg (18 KB | 47 )
ocean_pH.jpg

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Reply #53 - Oct 30th, 2009 at 10:37am
 
Yeah, I notice what an utterly bogus graph it is. Laughable. Look at the scale. Ridiculous.
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Reply #54 - Oct 30th, 2009 at 10:50am
 
Thanks for the info Muso, its really interesting. When will our governments change from only talking about the issue of climate change to actually doind something about it.
In Aus we have an abundant supply of many alternative sources of energy: waves, sun, uranium (although I personally would not like us to use uranium if we can help it).
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #55 - Oct 30th, 2009 at 11:17am
 
blutigeroo wrote on Oct 30th, 2009 at 10:50am:
Thanks for the info Muso, its really interesting. When will our governments change from only talking about the issue of climate change to actually doind something about it.
In Aus we have an abundant supply of many alternative sources of energy: waves, sun, uranium (although I personally would not like us to use uranium if we can help it).


Hopefully after Copenhagen in December. I sincerely hope that there will be no more empty promises.

As for Uranium, the Australian people will never agree to commercial scale nuclear reactors in Australia, but in the end it doesn't matter where it's used as fuel, as long as it is used as fuel. We share the same atmosphere with the rest of the world.

As long  as we keep producing as much Uranium as possible for power generation purposes, then the end result will be the same or better.

There are better informed populations elsewhere who will welcome it, and they don't have the benefit of huge geothermal and solar resources like Australia. If we concentrate on deveoping geothermal and solar resources and sell our uranium overseas, it might be the best option anyway.   


Soren, for an obviously well-educated person, the depth of your delusion and hypocrisy on this issue quite frankly astounds me.
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Reply #56 - Oct 30th, 2009 at 11:59am
 
muso wrote on Oct 30th, 2009 at 11:17am:
Soren, for an obviously well-educated person, the depth of your delusion and hypocrisy on this issue quite frankly astounds me.


Meh...



It is a ridiculous graph. It tries to show 100-200 years on a graph of 25 million years. And it tries to say that the pH of the oceans is changing uniformly. It's a Gore-y graph.


I am reassured that all you can say to that is that I am deluded and hypocritical (where is the double standard, by the way, that evokes cries of hypochrisy? )

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Reply #57 - Oct 30th, 2009 at 7:36pm
 
I think you're missing the point. The pH of the ocean is changing dramatically as a result of increased CO2 from burning fossil fuels, cement production and changes in tropical land use.

You can clearly see how far removed we are from the slow natural changes.

The graph was part of the Copenhagen Sythesis report and was submitted by Dr. Carol Turley, Plymouth Marine Laboratory in the UK.

It was submitted by the researcher herself, and was not third hand and distorted like most of Plimer's.

Quote:
Ocean acidification is a direct and certain consequence of CO2 emissions to the atmosphere; its consequences on the global ocean are only now emerging. The oceans have already taken up around 27-34% of the CO2 produced by humankind since the industrial revolution. Whilst this has limited the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, it has come at the price of a dramatic change to ocean chemistry. In particular, and of great concern, are the observed changes in ocean pH and carbonate and bicarbonate ion concentrations.

Evidence indicates that ocean acidification is a serious threat to many organisms and may have implications for food webs and ecosystems and the multi-billion dollar services they provide. For instance, erosion is likely to outpace growth of tropical coral reefs at 450-480 ppm CO2; there are already reports of a 19% decrease in growth of Great Barrier Reef corals.

When atmospheric CO2 reaches 450 ppm, large areas of the polar oceans will likely have become corrosive to shells of key marine calcifiers, an effect that will be strongestin the Arctic. Already, loss of shell weight in planktonic Antarctic calcifiers has been observed. Decreasing pH could also make oceans noisier in the audible range with potentialimplications for marine life, as well as for scientific, commercial, and naval applications using ocean acoustics.

The rate of change in ocean chemistry is very high (see figure), faster than previous ocean acidification-driven extinctions in Earth’s history, from which it took hundreds of thousands of years for marine ecosystems to recover. Ocean acidification will continue to track future CO2 emissions to the atmosphere so urgent and substantial emission reductions are the only way of reducing the impact of ocean acidification.


It's not the scale of the graph that's ridiculous, but the recent rate of change in ocean pH.
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Reply #58 - Oct 30th, 2009 at 9:08pm
 
Don't be ridiculous. How did she measure acidification over 25 million years?

She didn't. She is guessing, or rather conjecturing from corals, probably. Anybody who is talking about that amount of change in pH over 25 million years as fact is bullsh!tting. And what is the margin of error of these guesstimates?
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #59 - Oct 31st, 2009 at 7:29am
 
Soren wrote on Oct 30th, 2009 at 9:08pm:
Don't be ridiculous. How did she measure acidification over 25 million years?

She didn't. She is guessing, or rather conjecturing from corals, probably. Anybody who is talking about that amount of change in pH over 25 million years as fact is bullsh!tting. And what is the margin of error of these guesstimates?



Aha! - deliberately spreading confusion again.  Acidification is the recent process where increased production of CO2 is leading to reduction in ocean pH. The parameter measured over 25 million years is pH, not acidification. Soren, if you protest wildly about technical matters that you don't actually understand, then it doesn't matter how much impeccable rhetoric you use. You still end up looking foolish.

As far as the question of how you measure ocean pH over 25 million years, it is done by the use of proxies. Obviously an indirect method was used.

You are familar of course with the proxy data that is used to measure global temperature using Deuterium in ice cores? The one that is quite happily accepted and manipulated by denialists such as McIntyre? (I should add that he doesn't have the resources to produce his own data, so he manipulates that of others)

Anyway that's another example of proxy data. The proxy data matches quite well with recent data, and that gives us the confidence to use it over a longer period, especially if it's backed up by other proxy data.  The boron isotope ratio of biogenic carbonate is well established as a proxy for ocean pH.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/282/5393/1468

There have been many other studies that corroborate that one of course. Corals? - no, bad guess, Soren. They usually use benthic foraminifera.  

It's quite enlightening that you didn't ask the question "how did she measure ocean pH?" like most normal people would have done. Instead, you go on the attack immediately without any data to back you up. She was "guessing", you splutter, "conjecturing from corals" probably. In fact the only person doing the guessing is you  Grin

Now for the question of error bars. She could have used error bars, but to do so would have been difficult in this case.  The error in this case is extremely low. A graph of pH is on a logarithmic scale. A pH increase from say 7 to 8 represents a tenfold decrease (in hydrogen ion concentration), so any error in concentration would be reduced to being insignificant on a pH scale.  Try it on your scientific calculator if you don't believe me. There is one built in to your operating system. I'm sure any highschool student worth his salt would be happy to demonstrate its use.

You do understand the concept of logarithm I take it?
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #60 - Oct 31st, 2009 at 10:05am
 
muso wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 7:29am:
Soren wrote on Oct 30th, 2009 at 9:08pm:
Don't be ridiculous. How did she measure acidification over 25 million years?

She didn't. She is guessing, or rather conjecturing from corals, probably. Anybody who is talking about that amount of change in pH over 25 million years as fact is bullsh!tting. And what is the margin of error of these guesstimates?



Aha! - deliberately spreading confusion again.  Acidification is the recent process where increased production of CO2 is leading to reduction in ocean pH. The parameter measured over 25 million years is pH, not acidification. Soren, if you protest wildly about technical matters that you don't actually understand, then it doesn't matter how much impeccable rhetoric you use. You still end up looking foolish.



Aha, indeed.

My dear environmental scientist activist, ph IS the measure of acidity. Over 25 million years or the last 2 minutes.
It is the scale between acidity and basicity. Introduced by a Dane, no less. Sorensen.




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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #61 - Oct 31st, 2009 at 10:13am
 
muso wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 7:29am:
Soren wrote on Oct 30th, 2009 at 9:08pm:
Don't be ridiculous. How did she measure acidification over 25 million years?

She didn't. She is guessing, or rather conjecturing from corals, probably. Anybody who is talking about that amount of change in pH over 25 million years as fact is bullsh!tting. And what is the margin of error of these guesstimates?




As far as the question of how you measure ocean pH over 25 million years, it is done by the use of proxies. Obviously an indirect method was used.




Proxy? Indirect method, you say? You mean conjecture.

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #62 - Oct 31st, 2009 at 10:15am
 
muso wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 7:29am:
Soren wrote on Oct 30th, 2009 at 9:08pm:
Don't be ridiculous. How did she measure acidification over 25 million years?

She didn't. She is guessing, or rather conjecturing from corals, probably. Anybody who is talking about that amount of change in pH over 25 million years as fact is bullsh!tting. And what is the margin of error of these guesstimates?



The proxy data matches quite well with recent data,


I say! It woudn't dare not to!!!


Grin
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #63 - Oct 31st, 2009 at 12:00pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 10:05am:
muso wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 7:29am:
Soren wrote on Oct 30th, 2009 at 9:08pm:
Don't be ridiculous. How did she measure acidification over 25 million years?

She didn't. She is guessing, or rather conjecturing from corals, probably. Anybody who is talking about that amount of change in pH over 25 million years as fact is bullsh!tting. And what is the margin of error of these guesstimates?



Aha! - deliberately spreading confusion again.  Acidification is the recent process where increased production of CO2 is leading to reduction in ocean pH. The parameter measured over 25 million years is pH, not acidification. Soren, if you protest wildly about technical matters that you don't actually understand, then it doesn't matter how much impeccable rhetoric you use. You still end up looking foolish.



Aha, indeed.

My dear environmental scientist activist, ph IS the measure of acidity. Over 25 million years or the last 2 minutes.
It is the scale between acidity and basicity. Introduced by a Dane, no less. Sorensen.



The word you used was acidification before you surreptitiously changed it to acidity . I don't know if both were intended to be sleight of hand or not, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (against my better judgement). Acidification is the process where a solution becomes acidic. Strictly speaking, the ocean pH is reducing. It will never become acidic as such. The graph shows pH, not acidification.  Put simply, pH is a measure of how acidic or how basic a solution is. More  rigorously, it is the negative log of the hydrogen ion activity. I won't go into reasons why we changed from concentration to activity, but is related to the presence of other dissolved ionic species.

My first degree was in Chemistry. Don't argue simple Chemistry with a Chemist.  Grin
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #64 - Oct 31st, 2009 at 12:15pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 10:13am:
muso wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 7:29am:
Soren wrote on Oct 30th, 2009 at 9:08pm:
Don't be ridiculous. How did she measure acidification over 25 million years?

She didn't. She is guessing, or rather conjecturing from corals, probably. Anybody who is talking about that amount of change in pH over 25 million years as fact is bullsh!tting. And what is the margin of error of these guesstimates?




As far as the question of how you measure ocean pH over 25 million years, it is done by the use of proxies. Obviously an indirect method was used.




Proxy? Indirect method, you say? You mean conjecture.




No soren. It's not conjecture. Roll Eyes There are many things in life that are measured indirectly. Proxy measurements are well established in many fields of science, including biochemistry and medicine where they are sometimes referred to as surrogate measurements.

As far as the boron proxy (δ11B) for ocean pH is concerned, that has been through the mill considerably since it was first proposed by Palmer et al around 1987.

If you searched the literature, you'll find hundreds of papers on this issue. Many of workers have offered refinements to the technique over the years, and by about 2005, the method had pretty well been honed to it's current level of accuracy.  

Unless you're a young Earth creationist  Roll Eyes  (judging by your somewhat anal attitude to science, you might very well be one) then you will no doubt have heard of radiocarbon dating and thermoluminescence. These are proxy methods used in dating archaeological artifacts.

From the pre-industrial period to the present day, mean ocean pH has reduced from 8.25 to 8.1. That's more than a 30% increase in acidity (or decrease in basicity). If you really understood pH, you would appreciate that.

(some typos edited out)
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #65 - Oct 31st, 2009 at 12:23pm
 
Quote:
I say! It woudn't dare not to!!!


Grin


If you're implying that nobody has bothered to investigate it in any great depth, then I'd say you'd be very far from the mark. I could cite a pile of papers that have validated and improved the rigour of the technique over the years.

Here is one researcher who has investigated boron isotope techniques in considerable depth:

http://qcpages.qc.edu/EES/pep/hemming.html

Take a look at the list of papers on that site. That just represents the papers in which this researcher has participated. It's hardly as flippant as you make it out to be, and many people have tried to find faults with the technique over the years.  Some have pointed out errors, and appropriate changes have been made to improve the technique as a result.

That process is an intrinsic part of the scientific method.

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Reply #66 - Oct 31st, 2009 at 12:44pm
 
muso wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 12:00pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 10:05am:
muso wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 7:29am:
Soren wrote on Oct 30th, 2009 at 9:08pm:
Don't be ridiculous. How did she measure acidification over 25 million years?

She didn't. She is guessing, or rather conjecturing from corals, probably. Anybody who is talking about that amount of change in pH over 25 million years as fact is bullsh!tting. And what is the margin of error of these guesstimates?



Aha! - deliberately spreading confusion again.  Acidification is the recent process where increased production of CO2 is leading to reduction in ocean pH. The parameter measured over 25 million years is pH, not acidification. Soren, if you protest wildly about technical matters that you don't actually understand, then it doesn't matter how much impeccable rhetoric you use. You still end up looking foolish.



Aha, indeed.

My dear environmental scientist activist, ph IS the measure of acidity. Over 25 million years or the last 2 minutes.
It is the scale between acidity and basicity. Introduced by a Dane, no less. Sorensen.



The word you used was acidification before you surreptitiously changed it to acidity . I don't know if both were intended to be sleight of hand or not, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (against my better judgement). Acidification is the process where a solution becomes acidic. Strictly speaking, the ocean pH is reducing. It will never become acidic as such. The graph shows pH, not acidification.  Put simply, pH is a measure of how acidic or how basic a solution is. More  rigorously, it is the negative log of the hydrogen ion activity. I won't go into reasons why we changed from concentration to activity, but is related to the presence of other dissolved ionic species.

My first degree was in Chemistry. Don't argue simple Chemistry with a Chemist.  Grin



Acidification is the noun form of something becoming more acidic than it was before. Being more acidic is an increase in acidity.
Don't argue language with a linguist.
Smiley
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #67 - Oct 31st, 2009 at 12:54pm
 
muso wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 12:15pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 10:13am:
muso wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 7:29am:
Soren wrote on Oct 30th, 2009 at 9:08pm:
Don't be ridiculous. How did she measure acidification over 25 million years?

She didn't. She is guessing, or rather conjecturing from corals, probably. Anybody who is talking about that amount of change in pH over 25 million years as fact is bullsh!tting. And what is the margin of error of these guesstimates?




As far as the question of how you measure ocean pH over 25 million years, it is done by the use of proxies. Obviously an indirect method was used.




Proxy? Indirect method, you say? You mean conjecture.





Unless you're a young Earth creationist  Roll Eyes  (judging by your somewhat anal attitude to science, you might very well be one)



I have impeccable scientific credentials - I am sceptical. I don't know since when you had to be a Leninist so as not to be called anal or young earther or whatever intemperate or bitchy terms are the latest in the warmer's arsenal.

For me, if you are right and reason is on your side, warmists would not need to resort to pseudo-inquisitorial, Leninist vocabulary and outlook. If the science is complex and multifaceted, scepticism is something you lot should be demanding.

Put it simply, whatever Bob Brown, Clive Hamilton, Philip Adams or or that bearded bloke in the boat with Roy Slaven believes in can't be true.



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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #68 - Oct 31st, 2009 at 1:39pm
 
Scepticism is fine.  Those papers I was quoting were sceptical of the Boron proxy method.  Some of them identified weaknesses with the method and it had to be refined as a result. That kind of scepticism strengthens our knowledge.

Don't insult sceptics by calling Carter or Plimer sceptics. Philip Adams is a true sceptic. 

Plimer's and Carter's brand of 'scepticism' is better termed 'pseudo scepticism'. There is no science in that. Nobody would pretend that these jokers are trying to improve the scientific knowledge base by what they are doing. (Lying through their teeth)

They are just pretending to be skepticists. In fact they are deliberately causing confusion in order to muddy the waters. They are advocates for maintaining a status quo that is hazardous to every man woman and child on this planet.

Their objective is to cause enough confusion to lengthen the time that business can go on conducting business as usual, and the sad thing is that you know that already. The sadder part is that if we continue to produce and burn coal, oil and other hydrocarbons in the way that we have been doing up to now,  the bottom will fall out of the world economy around mid century because of their advocacy for short term profit.

- and don't talk about Leninist vocabulary with a true capitalist either. I don't even approve of what the ALP is doing at the moment.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #69 - Oct 31st, 2009 at 1:43pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 12:44pm:
Acidification is the noun form of something becoming more acidic than it was before. Being more acidic is an increase in acidity.
Don't argue language with a linguist.
Smiley


Still deliberately missing the point. The process of ocean acidification has not been going on for 25 million years. It's a recent phenomenon. The vertical line is acidification. What happened before were very slow gradual fluctuations.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #70 - Oct 31st, 2009 at 2:32pm
 
muso wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 1:39pm:
Their objective is to cause enough confusion to lengthen the time that business can go on conducting business as usual, and the sad thing is that you know that already. The sadder part is that if we continue to produce and burn coal, oil and other hydrocarbons in the way that we have been doing up to now,  the bottom will fall out of the world economy around mid century because of their advocacy for short term profit.




And why would that be in anybody's interes, considering that pension and superannuation funds are the biggest shareholders of many of the businesses demonised by the climate leninists. It is the old Dickensian idea of busness that lives on in your rhetoric.
It is certainly not in anyone's business interest to cease business mid-century. This crap just does not make sense unless you are a pimply 18 year old who thinks that whatever pops into his head is being thought of for the first time ever.

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #71 - Nov 1st, 2009 at 6:05am
 
Soren wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 2:32pm:
muso wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 1:39pm:
Their objective is to cause enough confusion to lengthen the time that business can go on conducting business as usual, and the sad thing is that you know that already. The sadder part is that if we continue to produce and burn coal, oil and other hydrocarbons in the way that we have been doing up to now,  the bottom will fall out of the world economy around mid century because of their advocacy for short term profit.




And why would that be in anybody's interes, considering that pension and superannuation funds are the biggest shareholders of many of the businesses demonised by the climate leninists. It is the old Dickensian idea of busness that lives on in your rhetoric.
It is certainly not in anyone's business interest to cease business mid-century. This crap just does not make sense unless you are a pimply 18 year old who thinks that whatever pops into his head is being thought of for the first time ever.



It's obviously in the interest of the coal companies not to stop producing coal. Wouldn't you say?
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #72 - Nov 1st, 2009 at 7:50am
 
Soren wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 2:32pm:
[


And why would that be in anybody's interes, considering that pension and superannuation funds are the biggest shareholders of many of the businesses demonised by the climate leninists. It is the old Dickensian idea of busness that lives on in your rhetoric.
It is certainly not in anyone's business interest to cease business mid-century. This crap just does not make sense unless you are a pimply 18 year old who thinks that whatever pops into his head is being thought of for the first time ever.



Not to mention they provide us jobs, pay taxes to fund social programs and all the other things we expect governments to provide, as well as provide goods and sevices that people want. It smacks of another agenda to want to shift 'blame' onto so called profit hungry big business.
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Reply #73 - Nov 1st, 2009 at 9:17am
 
pjb05 wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 7:50am:
It smacks of another agenda to want to shift 'blame' onto so called profit hungry big business.


Your post smacks of an agenda to shift from the scary science and get back to nice comfortable politics.

Most businesses are not concerned about 2050. The longest term detailed planning is 10 years or maybe 15 years.

What is, in fact an extremely urgent issue is being treated as a minor inconvenience that we'll probably get round to fixing one day.

Australia is in a dilemma as a major coal producer and with an enormous reliance on coal fired power stations.

To be blunt, coal production must stop - not just eventually. It needs to be phased out within the next 15 years. We need to be spending enormous amounts of capital in decarbonising the economy. It needs to be done in conjunction with other coal producing countries.

I've already talked about the risks of not doing that. It's in the Copenhagen sythesis report.

Will it affect jobs, and the economy? You bet it will. Big time.

If we do nothing about it, will it affect jobs and the economy worse?

Is the Pope Catholic? What the bugger do you think we've been saying all along?


Let me give you an analogy. You're on a sinking ship and you need to get to the lifeboat. The deck around it is under 6 inches of water.

What would you do? Bitch and whine that if we have to get in the lifeboat, we'll get our feet wet and die of hypothermia, and we'd be safer standing on the dry part of the ship?
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #74 - Nov 1st, 2009 at 9:45am
 
Soren wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 2:32pm:
And why would that be in anybody's interes, considering that pension and superannuation funds are the biggest shareholders of many of the businesses demonised by the climate leninists.


Climate change is a huge risk not only to the environment but also to superannuation, say industry players.


That was over two years ago.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/climate-change-a-risk-to-super/2007/05/24...


Super funds ranked on climate steps
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-business/super-funds-ranked-on-climate-step...
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #75 - Nov 1st, 2009 at 11:18am
 
muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 9:17am:
pjb05 wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 7:50am:
It smacks of another agenda to want to shift 'blame' onto so called profit hungry big business.


Your post smacks of an agenda to shift from the scary science and get back to nice comfortable politics.

Most businesses are not concerned about 2050. The longest term detailed planning is 10 years or maybe 15 years.

What is, in fact an extremely urgent issue is being treated as a minor inconvenience that we'll probably get round to fixing one day.

Australia is in a dilemma as a major coal producer and with an enormous reliance on coal fired power stations.

To be blunt, coal production must stop - not just eventually. It needs to be phased out within the next 15 years. We need to be spending enormous amounts of capital in decarbonising the economy. It needs to be done in conjunction with other coal producing countries.

I've already talked about the risks of not doing that. It's in the Copenhagen sythesis report.

Will it affect jobs, and the economy? You bet it will. Big time.

If we do nothing about it, will it affect jobs and the economy worse?

Is the Pope Catholic? What the bugger do you think we've been saying all along?


Let me give you an analogy. You're on a sinking ship and you need to get to the lifeboat. The deck around it is under 6 inches of water.

What would you do? Bitch and whine that if we have to get in the lifeboat, we'll get our feet wet and die of hypothermia, and we'd be safer standing on the dry part of the ship?



The boat is not sinking. In fact there is no boat. It's all hysterical nonsense. And so it must be skewerd and ridiculed mercilessly, at every turn.

Sir David King condemns green scaremongering; Herod condemns child abuse; Osama Bin Laden condemns Islamist terrorism; etc

By James Delingpole Politics Last updated: October 31st, 2009

Professor Sir David King – Tony Blair’s former chief scientific advisor and foot-and-mouth massacre guru – has spoken out against climate change alarmism. He has told the Times:

“When people overstate happenings that aren’t necessarily climate change-related, or set up as almost certainties things that are difficult to establish scientifically, it distracts from the science we do understand. The danger is they can be accused of scaremongering. Also, we can all become described as kind of left-wing greens.”

Presumably he is no relation of the Sir David King who claimed in January 2004 in Science magazine that climate change is “the most severe problem we are facing today” and “a far greater threat to the world than international terrorism.” (Hat tip: Benny Peiser)

Nor of the Sir David King who was reported thus in May 2004:

"Antarctica is likely to be the world’s only habitable continent by the end of this century if global warming remains unchecked, the government’s chief scientist, Professor Sir David King said last week. He said the Earth was entering the ‘first hot period’ for 60 million years when there was no ice on the plane and “the rest of the globe could not sustain human life”.

Nor of the Sir David King who made the following claim as recently as June 2008:

"If all the ice on Greenland were to melt, sea level would rise by seven metres. Is that likely to happen? Well I was saying six years ago unlikely [but] I’m afraid that that’s having to be revised… 80 percent of our human population lives within less than a one metre rise of sea level so imagine the destabilisation of our geopolitical system with a sea level rise of the order of one or two metres. And that is on the cards I’m afraid."

Nor, one hopes, is he any relation of the Sir David King who led the British delegation to a science conference in Moscow in 2004, whose performance prompted the following disgusted after-action report by the conference chairman Alexander Illarionov:

“In our opinion the reputation of British science, the reputation of the British government and the reputation of the title “Sir” has sustained heavy damage.”

If I were sensible, moderate Professor Sir David King I would have stern words with this soundalike character: otherwise some people might be in danger of mistaking him for an hysterical fool.



Antropogenic Global Warmists are humourless, po-faced drones.

Except you, Muso, of course. Smiley

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #76 - Nov 1st, 2009 at 11:43am
 
Soren wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 11:18am:


The boat is not sinking. In fact there is no boat. It's all hysterical nonsense.



Don't you understand the word "analogy"?  

Quote:
“When people overstate happenings that aren’t necessarily climate change-related, or set up as almost certainties things that are difficult to establish scientifically, it distracts from the science we do understand. The danger is they can be accused of scaremongering. Also, we can all become described as kind of left-wing greens


Some of the things that we read in newspapers is totally off-the wall alarmism. I've read just as much nonsense written overstating what Climate change means as I have seen nonsense denying that it exists -  OR that it will be beneficial.

I can understand that David King would make such a remark, because some of the things that are being said by deep green environmentalists are totally inaccurate.

However, he has not changed his mind on the fact that it's by far the major issue this century.
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Reply #77 - Nov 1st, 2009 at 3:31pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 11:43am:
Soren wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 11:18am:


The boat is not sinking. In fact there is no boat. It's all hysterical nonsense.



Don't you understand the word "analogy"?  

Quote:
“When people overstate happenings that aren’t necessarily climate change-related, or set up as almost certainties things that are difficult to establish scientifically, it distracts from the science we do understand. The danger is they can be accused of scaremongering. Also, we can all become described as kind of left-wing greens


Some of the things that we read in newspapers is totally off-the wall alarmism. I've read just as much nonsense written overstating what Climate change means as I have seen nonsense denying that it exists -  OR that it will be beneficial.

I can understand that David King would make such a remark, because some of the things that are being said by deep green environmentalists are totally inaccurate.

However, he has not changed his mind on the fact that it's by far the major issue this century.



"there is no boat" is also an analogy.

Warmists can't agre among themselves. The ideas, the data, the interpretations, the gloom-doom, the 'well all be rooned' stuff is all over the place.
The one thing they all agree on is that anyone who does not quite agree with them is lying, is possessed by the devil or is the devil.

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Reply #78 - Nov 1st, 2009 at 4:25pm
 
As I said to Grendel once before, you include in that category of 'Warmists' by implication every scientific body of National Standing in the world, and organisations such as the CSIRO, the Bureau of Meteorology - basically the entire scientific establishment.

If your 'warmists' were just a group of tree-hugging hippies, perhaps your point might look less ludicrous and quixotic. Like Grendel you bring up the usual strawmen, like Al Gore. Of course, we all know that it's all a plot hatched by Al Gore to fund his Solar power industry Grin

And that's as ridiculous as blaming bad news on the Channel 7 Newsreader.  
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #79 - Nov 1st, 2009 at 4:50pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 4:25pm:
As I said to Grendel once before, you include in that category of 'Warmists' by implication every scientific body of National Standing in the world, and organisations such as the CSIRO, the Bureau of Meteorology - basically the entire scientific establishment.

If your 'warmists' were just a group of tree-hugging hippies, perhaps your point might look less ludicrous and quixotic. Like Grendel you bring up the usual strawmen, like Al Gore. Of course, we all know that it's all a plot hatched by Al Gore to fund his Solar power industry Grin

And that's as ridiculous as blaming bad news on the Channel 7 Newsreader.  


I think you will find it is the leadership of these scientific bodies and not every scientist that is endorsing AGW. Plus they are scientists and not Gods and can be just as fallible and prone to political influence as the rest of us. Your are trying to create an aura of certanty on this issue which I don't think exists. 
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Reply #80 - Nov 1st, 2009 at 5:00pm
 
It's every single scientist apart from a few cranks.

It's very difficult to overlook the elephant in the room. 305 billion tonnes of carbon (GtC) have been emitted since the 18th century, nearly 42% of the total atmospheric inventory of 750 GtC, which has pushed CO2 levels to 387 ppm this year, 38% higher than the maximum of 280 ppm of the last 2.8 million years of glacial-interglacial Earth history.

No matter what you do, you can't hide that fact.
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Reply #81 - Nov 1st, 2009 at 5:29pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 5:00pm:
It's every single scientist apart from a few cranks.



No wonder Soren described the language of warmists, for want of a better word, as Leninistic. Anyone who doesn't tow the line is a crank, in the pay of big business etc.  Stalin used similar methods when he was battling for supremacy, using the Trotskyism label for his opponents - making them a permanent herssy by definition.  
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #82 - Nov 1st, 2009 at 7:02pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 5:00pm:
It's every single scientist apart from a few cranks.

It's very difficult to overlook the elephant in the room. 305 billion tonnes of carbon (GtC) have been emitted since the 18th century, nearly 42% of the total atmospheric inventory of 750 GtC, which has pushed CO2 levels to 387 ppm this year, 38% higher than the maximum of 280 ppm of the last 2.8 million years of glacial-interglacial Earth history.

No matter what you do, you can't hide that fact.


From 280 particles per million to 387 particles per million.

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #83 - Nov 2nd, 2009 at 7:59am
 
pjb05 wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 5:29pm:
muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 5:00pm:
It's every single scientist apart from a few cranks.



No wonder Soren described the language of warmists, for want of a better word, as Leninistic. Anyone who doesn't tow the line is a crank, in the pay of big business etc.  Stalin used similar methods when he was battling for supremacy, using the Trotskyism label for his opponents - making them a permanent herssy by definition.  



It's every single scientist, except for a few cranks, not because Scientists tow the line, but because, when it comes to data validation, scientists are among the most anal and fastidious of people around. (There's that word again)

I can't imagine any scientist I know actually subscribing to a general consensus unless the general consensus was quite rigorously established. It's more than my job is worth to lie about data. I would rather lay my job on the line than agree to something just because it fitted a certain agenda. It's the next worse thing to prostitution, and I know that the vast majority of scientists would agree.

Obviously there are one or two scientists who don't share my scruples about such things. A cluster of creationists at the University of Huntsville, Alabama spring to mind. I guess if they can change their views on reality based on scripture, then lying about other things is just a formality for them, whether it's the Christian Bible or the Bible of the Republican lobby. Their standard of honesty is clearly compromised if they can stoop to deliberately falsifying satellite temperature data. It speaks volumes about their learned establishment if they can commit such criminal fraud and still retain their positions. There are obviously great advantages to being on intimate terms with Senator Inhofe and other equally hypocritical good ol' boys.

Generally in the US, this issue used to be polarised on political grounds. Like anything else environmental, it is seen as a hindrance to business and is laughed aside.  Many Republicans are starting to realise the folly of the Bush Era thinking.

Unfortunately the extreme religion and the extreme attitude to the Environment seem to have gone hand in hand. If the world is about to end, way'll maybe it's just part of a grand prophesy - the Will of Gawd Almahdee and we should jest let it happen.    
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #84 - Nov 2nd, 2009 at 8:03am
 
Soren wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 7:02pm:
muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 5:00pm:
It's every single scientist apart from a few cranks.

It's very difficult to overlook the elephant in the room. 305 billion tonnes of carbon (GtC) have been emitted since the 18th century, nearly 42% of the total atmospheric inventory of 750 GtC, which has pushed CO2 levels to 387 ppm this year, 38% higher than the maximum of 280 ppm of the last 2.8 million years of glacial-interglacial Earth history.

No matter what you do, you can't hide that fact.


From 280 particles per million to 387 particles per million.



parts per million. Your point?
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #85 - Nov 2nd, 2009 at 8:32am
 
muso wrote on Nov 2nd, 2009 at 7:59am:
pjb05 wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 5:29pm:
muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2009 at 5:00pm:
It's every single scientist apart from a few cranks.



No wonder Soren described the language of warmists, for want of a better word, as Leninistic. Anyone who doesn't tow the line is a crank, in the pay of big business etc.  Stalin used similar methods when he was battling for supremacy, using the Trotskyism label for his opponents - making them a permanent herssy by definition.  



It's every single scientist, except for a few cranks, not because Scientists tow the line, but because, when it comes to data validation, scientists are among the most anal and fastidious of people around. (There's that word again)  


The line is toed for them:

THE nation's peak science agency has tried to gag the publication of a paper by one of its senior environmental economists attacking the Rudd government's climate change policies.

The paper, by the CSIRO's Clive Spash, argues the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme is an ineffective way to cut emissions, and instead direct legislation or a tax on carbon is needed.

The paper was accepted for publication by the journal New Political Economy after being internationally peer-reviewed.

But Dr Spash told the Australia New Zealand Society for Ecological Economics conference that the CSIRO had since June tried to block its publication.

In the paper, Dr Spash argues the economic theory underpinning emissions trading schemes is "far removed" from the reality of permit markets. "While carbon trading and offset schemes seem set to spread, they so far appear ineffective in terms of actually reducing GHGs (greenhouse gases)," he says. "Despite this apparent failure, ETS remain politically popular amongst the industrialised polluters.

"The public appearance is that action is being undertaken. The reality is that GHGs are increasing and society is avoiding the need for substantive proposals to address the problem of behavioural and structural change."

Dr Spash said trading schemes did not efficiently allocate emission cuts because their design was manipulated by vested interests. For example, in Australia, large polluters would be compensated with free permits while smaller, more competitive firms would have to buy theirs at auction. The schemes were also flawed because: global warming was caused by gases other than carbon; emissions were difficult to measure; carbon offsets bought from other countries were of dubious value; and the schemes "crowded out" voluntary action by individuals. He concludes that more direct measures, such as a carbon tax, regulations or new infrastructure would be simpler, more effective and less open to manipulation.

Dr Spash could not be contacted by The Australian.

However, his presentation to the ANZSEE conference in Darwin last Wednesday stated: "The CSIRO is currently maintaining they have the right to ban the written version of this paper from publication by myself as a representative of the organisation and by myself as a private citizen."

Dr Spash said CSIRO managers had written to the journal's editor demanding the paper not be published.

CSIRO spokesman Huw Morgan said the publication of Dr Spash's paper was an internal matter and was being reviewed by the chief executive's office.

However, he said that under the agency's charter scientists were forbidden from commenting on matters of government or opposition policy.

The CSIRO charter, introduced last year, was trumpeted by Science Minister Kim Carr as a way to guarantee freedom of expression for scientists.

Senator Carr said he was seeking a briefing from the CSIRO.

Opposition science spokesman Eric Abetz accused the government of empty spin.

Julian Cribb, adjunct professor of science communication at the University of Technology, Sydney, said gagging scientists deprived the public of scientific knowledge they had funded.

ANZSEE president Wendy Proctor said if Dr Spash's research questioned current orthodoxy, it should be made public to inform debate.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #86 - Nov 2nd, 2009 at 8:38am
 
That's political censorship pure and simple.  Besides, it's bean counters, not scientists. Even I  said many times that a carbon tax is the way to go.  So that article is relevant to the subject at hand? ....why?
Quote:
Dr Spash said trading schemes did not efficiently allocate emission cuts because their design was manipulated by vested interests. For example, in Australia, large polluters would be compensated with free permits while smaller, more competitive firms would have to buy theirs at auction. The schemes were also flawed because: global warming was caused by gases other than carbon; emissions were difficult to measure; carbon offsets bought from other countries were of dubious value; and the schemes "crowded out" voluntary action by individuals. He concludes that more direct measures, such as a carbon tax, regulations or new infrastructure would be simpler, more effective and less open to manipulation.


Isn't that what I've been saying all along?
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #87 - Nov 2nd, 2009 at 9:52am
 
muso wrote on Nov 2nd, 2009 at 8:38am:
That's political censorship pure and simple.  Besides, it's bean counters, not scientists. Even I  said many times that a carbon tax is the way to go.  So that article is relevant to the subject at hand? ....why?


See above:


Quote:
Warmists can't agre among themselves. The ideas, the data, the interpretations, the gloom-doom, the 'well all be rooned' stuff is all over the place.
The one thing they all agree on is that anyone who does not quite agree with them is lying, is possessed by the devil or is the devil.




The last time the Thames froze over was in the 1810s. Then it warmed and there was, in Australia for example, a massive drought in the late 19th century. Then in the 1920s and 1930s it was warmer. Then from the 1940s to the 1970s it was colder, then warmer. Take those models, calculations, conjectures and proofs or whatever they are,  predicting future catastrophy  - and run them backwards, over those known and documented past temperature changes.
Can you say that your 'human emissions of CO2 causes global warming" thesis stands up and explaines those past changes? No. You cannot establish the influence of human CO2 emissions over these past changes, let alone causality.


What's the relevance of my spelling out the meaning of ppm as in 387 parts/particles per million? you ask.

One relevance is that the differnce between 280 and 387 - 107 parts per million - is not all human emission. but to make it simple, let's say it's all human emission. So the thesis is that global warming of catastrophic proportions is causedd by an increase of 100 parts in a million of the atmosphere. That is 1 percent of 1 percent.

The second relevance is related. What do the models, run backwards and forward, tell us about the function, changes, influence, relevance, yada yada yada of the other 99.99% of the atmosphere? WHy is the rest of the atmosphere ignored. Is it ignored?

And that's just the atmosphere. Is global climate really turning on a catastrophic scale on nothing more that a 0.01% change in the proportion of one of the gases that make up the atmosphere? The plant food component?


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Reply #88 - Nov 2nd, 2009 at 10:24am
 
Point 1 in Climate Change (Global Warming) Explained (The Sticky notes on top of this forum)

The actual concentration of Carbon dioxide is currently around 385 parts per million and has increased by around 30% in the last 50 years. This might seem like a very low concentration, but very low concentration can still have a significant effect. The basic physics is well established, and was first discovered by Arrhenius at the turn of the 20th Century.

As I've explained countless times before, there are of course other Greenhouse gases, and it is well established what they are and the degree to which they contribute to radiative forcing. The main ones are carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide and then there are minor ones such as CFC12.

For convenience sake, we convert other gases to CO2 equivalents so that we can compare apples with apples, so we talk in terms of CO2 equivalents.

Water vapour is a feedback. Unlike the other greenhouse gases mentioned above, water is easily precipitated from the atmosphere when the temperature cycles down due to normal variations in the wether or diurnal/seasonal  temperatures etc.  It  obviously doesn't have the same accumulative effect, but in general, increased levels of CO2 and other greenhouse gases lead to increased water vapour concentration.

Quote:
So the thesis is that global warming of catastrophic proportions is causedd by an increase of 100 parts in a million of the atmosphere.


Where did you get that from? 387ppm is today's level of CO2.
Do you see global warming of catastrophic proportion yet? I don't.

****Flawed logic detected*****


Quote:
Warmists can't agre among themselves. The ideas, the data, the interpretations, the gloom-doom, the 'well all be rooned' stuff is all over the place.
The one thing they all agree on is that anyone who does not quite agree with them is lying, is possessed by the devil or is the devil.


Sounds like an article of faith. Just who are these 'warmists' then? You haven't really told us yet. I suggested before that it includes the entire scientific establishment.
Quote:
And that's just the atmosphere. Is global climate really turning on a catastrophic scale on nothing more that a 0.01% change in the proportion of one of the gases that make up the atmosphere? The plant food component?


The plant food component eh? Damn. I put a heap of plant food on my lawn in Winter, which is also the driest part of the year. What do you think happened to the lawn? (maybe I didn't add enough)

After all, it's just plant food isn't it? Tell you what, I'll wait until it gets really hot and dry until I apply some more plant food? Do you think that will work better?

Isn't that what you're saying here?
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #89 - Nov 2nd, 2009 at 10:50am
 
Soren wrote on Nov 2nd, 2009 at 9:52am:
The second relevance is related. What do the models, run backwards and forward, tell us about the function, changes, influence, relevance, yada yada yada of the other 99.99% of the atmosphere? WHy is the rest of the atmosphere ignored. Is it ignored?



I'll tell you what. I'll try running time backwards so that all the money I spent last month comes back.  Do you really think you can run climate models backwards? Have you heard of the Second Law of Thermodynamics?

Is 99.99% of the atmosphere ignored in climate models?  I don't think so. Do you think we could model atmospheric heat transfers in a near vacuum? - because if 99.9% of the atmosphere was ignored, the climate models would come up with a climate more suited to a planet with low atmospheric pressure, such as Mars. Mind you I often get the feeling that you're on a different planet from the rest of us.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #90 - Nov 2nd, 2009 at 11:01am
 
muso wrote on Nov 2nd, 2009 at 10:24am:
Quote:
So the thesis is that global warming of catastrophic proportions is causedd by an increase of 100 parts in a million of the atmosphere.


Where did you get that from? 387ppm is today's level of CO2.
Do you see global warming of catastrophic proportion yet? I don't.

****Flawed logic detected*****




One relevance is that the differnce between 280 and 387 - 107 parts per million - is not all human emission. but to make it simple, let's say it's all human emission. So the thesis is that global warming of catastrophic proportions is causedd by an increase of 100 parts in a million of the atmosphere. That is 1 percent of 1 percent.

The last time the Thames froze over was in the 1810s. Then it warmed and there was, in Australia for example, a massive drought in the late 19th century. Then in the 1920s and 1930s it was warmer. Then from the 1940s to the 1970s it was colder, then warmer. Take those models, calculations, conjectures and proofs or whatever they are,  predicting future catastrophy  - and run them backwards, over those known and documented past temperature changes.

Can you say that your 'human emissions of CO2 causes global warming" thesis stands up and explaines those past changes? No. You cannot establish the influence of human CO2 emissions over these past changes, let alone causality.






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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #91 - Nov 2nd, 2009 at 11:45am
 
Soren wrote on Nov 2nd, 2009 at 11:01am:
muso wrote on Nov 2nd, 2009 at 10:24am:
Quote:
So the thesis is that global warming of catastrophic proportions is causedd by an increase of 100 parts in a million of the atmosphere.


Where did you get that from? 387ppm is today's level of CO2.
Do you see global warming of catastrophic proportion yet? I don't.

****Flawed logic detected*****




One relevance is that the differnce between 280 and 387 - 107 parts per million - is not all human emission. but to make it simple, let's say it's all human emission. So the thesis is that global warming of catastrophic proportions is causedd by an increase of 100 parts in a million of the atmosphere. That is 1 percent of 1 percent.

The last time the Thames froze over was in the 1810s. Then it warmed and there was, in Australia for example, a massive drought in the late 19th century. Then in the 1920s and 1930s it was warmer. Then from the 1940s to the 1970s it was colder, then warmer. Take those models, calculations, conjectures and proofs or whatever they are,  predicting future catastrophy  - and run them backwards, over those known and documented past temperature changes.


First of all your opening paragraph is regurgitated. I already made the point that nobody is making any such claim that we are currently living through "global warming of catastrophic proportions". The fact that you repeated the claim is even more ridiculous given that I already pointed out that logical fallacy.

Quote:
Can you say that your 'human emissions of CO2 causes global warming" thesis stands up and explaines those past changes? No. You cannot establish the influence of human CO2 emissions over these past changes, let alone causality.


Strawman - I can't establish the influence of anthropogenic CO2 emissions on the last period of glaciation for that matter. The point is that there are natural variations in climate, there are also regional variations in climate, and there are all sorts of factors that have influenced climate in the past.

Absolutely no argument there. Didn't you read the sticky posts? - you didn't! - go on - admit it. Read Point 3 and you'll see that I've already addressed this:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1247904929

- but to say that because there is natural variation in climate, there is no warming due to anthropogenic greenhouse gases, is a logical fallacy.

To claim that some random opinion you found on the internet overrides all the peer reviewed science is also a logical fallacy, and borders on the preposterous.  Heaven and Earth has been extensively Peer Reviewed - but guess what? It failed miserably. It got an F.

You're tilting at windmills, and looking slightly ridiculous.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #92 - Nov 2nd, 2009 at 8:12pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 2nd, 2009 at 11:45am:
Soren wrote on Nov 2nd, 2009 at 11:01am:
muso wrote on Nov 2nd, 2009 at 10:24am:
Quote:
So the thesis is that global warming of catastrophic proportions is causedd by an increase of 100 parts in a million of the atmosphere.


Where did you get that from? 387ppm is today's level of CO2.
Do you see global warming of catastrophic proportion yet? I don't.

****Flawed logic detected*****




One relevance is that the differnce between 280 and 387 - 107 parts per million - is not all human emission. but to make it simple, let's say it's all human emission. So the thesis is that global warming of catastrophic proportions is causedd by an increase of 100 parts in a million of the atmosphere. That is 1 percent of 1 percent.

The last time the Thames froze over was in the 1810s. Then it warmed and there was, in Australia for example, a massive drought in the late 19th century. Then in the 1920s and 1930s it was warmer. Then from the 1940s to the 1970s it was colder, then warmer. Take those models, calculations, conjectures and proofs or whatever they are,  predicting future catastrophy  - and run them backwards, over those known and documented past temperature changes.


First of all your opening paragraph is regurgitated. I already made the point that nobody is making any such claim that we are currently living through "global warming of catastrophic proportions". The fact that you repeated the claim is even more ridiculous given that I already pointed out that logical fallacy.

The whole post was a repeat of parts of my previous two posts. Tsk, tsk, careless reader....

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #93 - Nov 2nd, 2009 at 8:46pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 2nd, 2009 at 11:45am:
Quote:
Can you say that your 'human emissions of CO2 causes global warming" thesis stands up and explaines those past changes? No. You cannot establish the influence of human CO2 emissions over these past changes, let alone causality.


Strawman - I can't establish the influence of anthropogenic CO2 emissions on the last period of glaciation for that matter. The point is that there are natural variations in climate, there are also regional variations in climate, and there are all sorts of factors that have influenced climate in the past.

Absolutely no argument there. Didn't you read the sticky posts? - you didn't! - go on - admit it. Read Point 3 and you'll see that I've already addressed this:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1247904929

- but to say that because there is natural variation in climate, there is no warming due to anthropogenic greenhouse gases, is a logical fallacy.



How much of the variation is due to human emission? Is it a direct, causal correlation? Are you, is anybody, prepared to say? No.

CO2 increased from 280 ppm to 387 due to natuaral and human emission. That change, the increase by 107 ppm, is all there is to CO2 increase and not all of it is human emission. That change, that extra 107 ppm (natural plus human CO2 emission) is 0.01% of the total atmospheric gases. Of that 0.01%, only a proportion, say half, is human emission.

Who is prepared to say that the controlling of the human caused proportion that that 0.01% variation is the key to avoiding the various catastrophies attrributed ( by the supposed 'consensus') to - er, that proportion of the 0.01% change in CO2. Because that is that is in our control. A proportion of 0.01%. What proportion? Say half for simplicity's sake.


We are going to have a massive trading or tax scheme to toy with that half of 0.01% atmospheric gas. It is going to cost billions upon untold billions to reduce that half of 0.01% COE emission by what? Half? Totally? Fine. Eliminate all human emission - the entitre half of 0.01% of the increase from 280 ppm to 387 ppm of CO2 of total atmospheric gases.

Why? because the 'consesnus' is that the half of 0.01% is responsible for imminent - and here I will let you tell us what is imminent otherwise.

Or is it just an issurance scheme against something that may or may not happen? Or what?

Who is prepared to say that the human caused proportion of that 107 ppm, the difference between 208 ppm and 387 ppm,  is responsible for all the 'serious climatic changes we have witnessed so far' and that controlling that half of 107 ppm (or part thereof) will prevent whatever imminent or otherwise disasters are forecast by Gore and his imitators, the Blairs and Browns and Rudds and Schmucks of this world.


And if all you can say that noticing how preposterous all this climate change scare is on the basis of that half of 0.01% change in atmospheric CO2 is tilting at windmills then you, too, have stopped thinking.





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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #94 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 8:27am
 
Most of your post dwells on the hypothesis that because we have an extremely low concentration of a gas means that it's harmless.  Low concentrations of gases can and do cause harm. For example breathing hydrogen sulfide at just 100ppm can cause immediate danger to life. Why don't you try it?  - After all, it's just 1/10 of 0.01 percent of the air you'd be breathing.

Besides, we're talking about approximately 450ppm, not today's 387ppm.  The crisis is not yet on us, so your entire argument based on today's CO2 concentration is crumbling at the foundations.

I told you that before, but still you keep on coming back with 107 ppm. Now who's the careless reader?

Today's concentration of CO2 we can live with. So far, we've had around 0.7% warming.  At the current level of production of greenhouse gases, the atmospheric CO2 will continue to rise. At the moment, it's rising around 1.9 ppm every year. We have enough coal reserves for around 500 years at least, so it's not resource constrained.

See my sticky notes point 5:

Quote:
The global average temperature will increase by 2 to 3 °C this century – according to one of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's (IPCC) mid-range estimates (purple line on the graph below). This rise in temperature means that the Earth will experience a greater climate change than it has for at least 10,000 years and it would be difficult for many people and ecosystems to adapt to this rapid change.  


Ocean acidification is currently progressing at a faster rate today  than in the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, 56 million years ago.  This resulted in major extinctions in the sea and on the land.

I have assessed the following wikipedia article and it seems to be reflective of mainstream research:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleocene%E2%80%93Eocene_Thermal_Maximum

It makes for interesting reading. Obviously the causes were different - perhaps a large meteorite or a comet. The article gives a number of hypotheses.  Neverthless cataclysmic though this event was, our current level of acidifcation exceeds that of the PETM.

By the way, you make the point that part of that 107ppm is natural. What is your reference for that? - because I know that it's a bogus claim. If all the CO2 that has been emitted by man were collected in the atmosphere, the concentration would be around 600ppm, not 387ppm. Fortunately the sea has absorbed some of that, although as I said before, it's a mixed blessing. The penalty will be enormous harm to marine life by the mid century.

The current IPCC plan of limiting Global Mean temperatures to a 2 degrees C guard rail will not be enough to save the Great Barrier Reef. We might as well overfish the reef, because it won't last more than about 50 years or so. Any vast amounts of money we are currently spending on conserving the Great Barrier Reef will be wasted.

That illustrates the extent of the crisis.    
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #95 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 8:48am
 
It's very easy to refute any arguments you come up with, but you keep ignoring the fact that I have refuted every single argument, and you come back with a fresh argument. - quite often 'zombie lies' that have previously been refuted.

Does your conscience bother you, or is dishonest debate just part of your modus operandi in life?
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Reply #96 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 9:23am
 
muso wrote on Nov 3rd, 2009 at 8:48am:
It's very easy to refute any arguments you come up with, but you keep ignoring the fact that I have refuted every single argument, and you come back with a fresh argument. - quite often 'zombie lies' that have previously been refuted.

Does your conscience bother you, or is dishonest debate just part of your modus operandi in life?



I don't think you refuted anything. ANd no, my conscience is not bothering me and no, I am not dishonest.

I genuinely do not believe or have seen evidence that humans have been changing the climate. To me it is genuinely unbelievable. Honest.

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Reply #97 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 10:50am
 
Quote:
Ocean acidification is currently progressing at a faster rate today  than in the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, 56 million years ago.  This resulted in major extinctions in the sea and on the land.


I wonder if it could have anything to do with the hundreds of oil spills annually and the waste and the toxic chemicals that are dumped daily, not to mention all the sonic underwater testing and rusted out sunken war machinery. Our seas are filthy and poisonous and it's a wonder any marine life survives.

Why isn't Rudd selling us a clean up man-made pollution scheme instead of concentrating on emissions. What's the point of lowering emissions - if the filth remains?

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #98 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 11:24am
 
mantra wrote on Nov 3rd, 2009 at 10:50am:
Quote:
Ocean acidification is currently progressing at a faster rate today  than in the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, 56 million years ago.  This resulted in major extinctions in the sea and on the land.


I wonder if it could have anything to do with the hundreds of oil spills annually and the waste and the toxic chemicals that are dumped daily, not to mention all the sonic underwater testing and rusted out sunken war machinery. Our seas are filthy and poisonous and it's a wonder any marine life survives.

Why isn't Rudd selling us a clean up man-made pollution scheme instead of concentrating on emissions. What's the point of lowering emissions - if the filth remains?



Emissions are man made pollution too. It's not related to the oil spills. It's related to the emissions of CO2. It's a simple matter to measure ionic species in seawater.

Oil spills are important, but much less than ocean acidification because they have relatively limited effects in comparison.

This might be interesting for you to listen to. Economists and governments are starting to do the right thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=688HLeGghXs
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Reply #99 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 11:37am
 
muso wrote on Nov 3rd, 2009 at 11:24am:
mantra wrote on Nov 3rd, 2009 at 10:50am:
Quote:
Ocean acidification is currently progressing at a faster rate today  than in the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, 56 million years ago.  This resulted in major extinctions in the sea and on the land.


I wonder if it could have anything to do with the hundreds of oil spills annually and the waste and the toxic chemicals that are dumped daily, not to mention all the sonic underwater testing and rusted out sunken war machinery. Our seas are filthy and poisonous and it's a wonder any marine life survives.

Why isn't Rudd selling us a clean up man-made pollution scheme instead of concentrating on emissions. What's the point of lowering emissions - if the filth remains?



Emissions are man made pollution too.



The fixation on human emissions is retentive (what's the Freudian term?...) 'precious bodily fluids' mania. A monomania, an idee fixe.



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Reply #100 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 11:40am
 
I'm having computer problems at the moment - and don't want to download Adobe Flash, but from what I've read - some governments are interested in doing the right thing, but the rest are just paying lip service to appease the mobs.

I'll look into this "measuring ionic species in seawater" and see exactly what it means.
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Reply #101 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 12:18pm
 
muso wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 7:29am:
denialists such as McIntyre? (I should add that he doesn't have the resources to produce his own data, so he manipulates that of others)


That's scary - checking other people's data. That's so .. anti-science, innit? What a kulak.


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Reply #102 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 12:19pm
 
Mantra, When carbon dioxide dissolves in seawater, it forms a weak acid, called carbonic acid. This dissolution of carbon dioxide has lowered the average pH of the oceans by about 0.1 units from pre-industrial levels. We can tell that the acidification is due to Carbon dioxide by measuring the carbonate and bicorbonate ions present in solution. It's quite straightforward and non controversial to do that.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #103 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 12:25pm
 
Soren wrote on Nov 3rd, 2009 at 9:23am:
I genuinely do not believe or have seen evidence that humans have been changing the climate. To me it is genuinely unbelievable. Honest.



One example of a "settled" part of climate science is that CO2 and other gases are greenhouse gases, i.e., that they trap energy received from the sun in various parts of the infrared spectrum, causing heat to become trapped in the earth's lower atmosphere. The extent to which this happens is governed by basic physics.

Another example of settled science is that we can measure how much CO2 is emitted to the atmophere directly from the quantities of fuels combusted each year.  We can access that information quite readily from accounting information alone.

Putting those two facts together, it doesn't take much understanding or complex climate modelling to realise that global warming is an obvious consequence.  

There are of course natural variations which underlie all this - the effect of the sun and orbital variation etc varies slightly over time, but the natural trend taken over the last 8000 years has been in terms of slowly decreasing temperatures, if anything.

The trend due to vulcanicity has also been down. Major volcanoes tend to have an overall cooling effect, taking everything into consideration.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #104 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 12:31pm
 
Soren wrote on Nov 3rd, 2009 at 12:18pm:
muso wrote on Oct 31st, 2009 at 7:29am:
denialists such as McIntyre? (I should add that he doesn't have the resources to produce his own data, so he manipulates that of others)


That's scary - checking other people's data. That's so .. anti-science, innit? What a kulak.


If it were just 'checking', that would be fine. Deliberately changing data is a totally different ballgame. Let me make this quite clear - When I said 'manipulate' I meant fudging the figures.

Plimer does the same. It's open for anyone with a calculator to check.  I've provided the links before.
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Reply #105 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 1:36pm
 
I am reading Booker and North's Scared to Death. One reviewer has this to say about/a propos it:

Many of us who were involved in the early days of environmentalism, because of the disgusting and dangerous state of our post-war air and rivers, and had good reason to be satisfied with the progress that had been made, became distressed when the movement was suddenly hijacked by a new force. It seemed to be motivated by a hatred of industry and economic progress. Instead of relying on actual measurements of pollution, it began to extrapolate by means of theories and models. It developed the threat of the New Ice Age. Industrial pollution would block out the sun and plunge the world into an appalling frozen future. In Britain it was irrelevantly defeated by the searing summer of 1976, an isolate statistic that could have no bearing on climate and, though it caused ridicule, was nevertheless a portent of things to come. We innocently assumed that they would withdraw, but they simply did an about turn. Almost without pausing for breath, they converted the threat of an ice age to one of catastrophic global warming. Digging up old papers by the likes of Arrhenius and Callendar, and without a trace of embarrassment, they switched from accusing industry from freezing us to death to claiming that it would roast us. At the time most of us in science treated it all as a joke that no one could possibly take seriously. How wrong we were! We simply could not see that profound changes were taking place in society, that even science and its methods would come under a devastating threat.

If there is one area in which your reviewer takes a view that is divergent from that of these authors, it is in the role that Britain played in the Mother of all Scares. Sir Crispin Tickell and Margaret Thatcher just get a passing mention. Tickell, a history graduate and diplomat, closely involved with the European Commission and later permanent representative to the United Nations, author of Climatic Change and World Affairs, 1977, was a close advisor to Thatcher, who, with the unique authority of being a political leader and a science graduate, under the influence of Tickell launched Global Warming into the world political domain. If there is a “Typhoid Mary” that spread the contagion of global warming around the world it can only be Tickell; he was closely involved with the very international institutions that promoted it. Thatcher was at war with the Miners’ union and the oil sheiks and was determined to press the case for nuclear power. As so often happened, her tactical manoeuvres defeated her strategic aims. She fostered the creation of a movement that opposed everything she stood for. Revisionists deny that she was all that enthusiastic in the promotion of global warming. Take it from one who sat it the front row at a major speech she made, this is not so; or, failing that, take it from her then loyal lieutenant, Nigel Lawson. She established the Hadley Centre, designed to manufacture evidence for global warming, at the expense of funds diverted with great damage from real science, and subverted the Royal Society by putting money on the table for the same purpose. The Hadley Centre became a main engine for the UN IPCC, which imposed the global warming religion on the world.

Global warming is the scare that is the climax  of this book. It is both unique and typical. It is unique in that economic failure is not just a by-product of the scare, it is the whole raison d’être. It is promoted by interests who oppose everything that would enhance the economic well-being of mankind (for example, realistic sources of energy as opposed to those that are intermittent, impracticable and only sustainable by grotesque levels of subsidy). It is typical in employing all the manoeuvres that have sustained the previous, less durable scares; i.e. selecting favourable data while ignoring more credible adverse data, practising overt and covert censorship, mounting ad hominem attacks on opponents, recruiting “scientists” to serve its purposes with public funds, while without evidence gratuitously accusing critics of receiving handouts from hated industrial sources, putting the frighteners on ill-informed ordinary people and so on. Scientifically this scare is dead in the water, even the measurement evidence of any warming occurring at all fades away on examination, but the weaker their case becomes the more fervently the faithful cling to their belief and the more bitter the bile they direct at infidels.




That last word is apt. If warmists are not talking like Leninists, they tend to sound like mad mullahs and their followers  on the offensive against the Greeat and Little Satan.  
Then to point out the fact that Gore and Monbiot are the public faces of 'warmingism' is to almost put an end to the argument.

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #106 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 3:30pm
 
Does "Scared to Death" comfort and re-assure you that there's nothing to worry about?  Wink

When faced with blatently obvious lies, it's not surprising that some people lose their cool. Maybe that's one objective of the pseudo-sceptics.

When people get to the stage where they don't even listen, or bother to reply to perfectly sound arguments, that's when it becomes obvious that they have been brain washed by some very seductive publicity campaigns. People love conspiracy theories.

Fortunately we have a critical mass in world governments. Apart from maybe the Czech republic, which, let's face it doesn't matter too much, most governments will do the right thing. (Stephen Harper's Canada is a bit of a worry though)
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Reply #107 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 10:55pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 3rd, 2009 at 3:30pm:
Does "Scared to Death" comfort and re-assure you that there's nothing to worry about?  Wink


No, but it does demonstrate the political dimentions of warmism and shows how consent was manufactured. It succeeds in discrediting Gore, the IPCC and its works and traces the seeds of the whole 'movement'. It shows who the bullies are and how they do it.

And it is readable. With stacks of refernces. Booker has a regular column in the London Telegraph. Give Monbiot a rest and check him out. He is neither a paid lackey nor a party hack nor someone who used to be the next prez.




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Reply #108 - Nov 3rd, 2009 at 11:08pm
 
Soren wrote on Nov 3rd, 2009 at 1:36pm:
If there is one area in which your reviewer takes a view that is divergent from that of these authors, it is in the role that Britain played in the Mother of all Scares. Sir Crispin Tickell and Margaret Thatcher just get a passing mention. Tickell, a history graduate and diplomat, closely involved with the European Commission and later permanent representative to the United Nations, author of Climatic Change and World Affairs, 1977, was a close advisor to Thatcher, who, with the unique authority of being a political leader and a science graduate, under the influence of Tickell launched Global Warming into the world political domain. If there is a “Typhoid Mary” that spread the contagion of global warming around the world it can only be Tickell; he was closely involved with the very international institutions that promoted it. Thatcher was at war with the Miners’ union and the oil sheiks and was determined to press the case for nuclear power. As so often happened, her tactical manoeuvres defeated her strategic aims. She fostered the creation of a movement that opposed everything she stood for. Revisionists deny that she was all that enthusiastic in the promotion of global warming. Take it from one who sat it the front row at a major speech she made, this is not so; or, failing that, take it from her then loyal lieutenant, Nigel Lawson. She established the Hadley Centre, designed to manufacture evidence for global warming, at the expense of funds diverted with great damage from real science, and subverted the Royal Society by putting money on the table for the same purpose. The Hadley Centre became a main engine for the UN IPCC, which imposed the global warming religion on the world.



I love the sweet irony, apparently lost on environmental activists, that they are, in the final analysis, nothing more than Thatcherites.

That's funny. Grin






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Reply #109 - Nov 4th, 2009 at 8:00am
 
Soren,

Ok, maybe I am a Leninist Thatcherite whatever that is. Do you want to add Hitlerite or Husseinite while you're at it. Go on - add Maoist if you like, and why not add Stalin to that assorted list of political name -calling. He was probably the biggest bogeyman of them all.

This is all very droll and immature, but I'm not here to play politics. My training tells me that the science behind Anthropogenic Global Warming is correct. My training is based on basic scientific principles. We just don't accept mantras and articles of faith. I don't memorise formulas unless I understand their basis first. There must be rigorous science behind each conclusion. I tend to read Scientific papers rather than watered down press reports, and I read each paper with a necessary degree of scepticism.

My scientific training also tells me that the likes of Plimer and Roy Spencer of the University of Alabama are presenting a thin veneer of credibility that works for the general public, or perhaps even scientists outside the fields of Atmospheric physics and oceanography, but even a shallow dig will reveal that they offer nothing but deliberate confusion and astroturfing.

There is good reason that none of them have had peer reviewed papers published in the field.  The fact is that they know better than to try, because they know that what they present is farcical. It doesn't have to be factual because they are not actually trying to win any arguments. If they lose an argument, they go silent like you do Soren, then deny the fact and bring up even more regurgitated nonsense. As long as they spread confusion, they are winning.  

The more that mainstream scientists are appalled by this dereliction of duty for accurate reporting and the blatently obvious fraud that is being perpetrated, the more it works to their advantage.  The more we react, the more they can say - Look! They are obsessed with their ideology. They are zealots. And all the time, they are laughing through their teeth and flashing their bankrolls at us. Perhaps honesty doesn't pay in the short term, but eventually karma will catch up with them.  

Sometimes, I wonder if it's even worth speaking out against it. Maybe I should just do my job and let the technical lawyers take over when they get the chance, because the more I say, the more it just adds fuel to the fire.  

They are like the court jesters of old. Because they are owned by a king, the jesters can utter whatever obscenities they want as long as the king is there to protect them and laugh at how they send up his opponents.

I can understand how people without a grounding in science can't have the same perspective, and the last thing I would ask is to accept anything on faith. I am just trying to provide some simple facts to help those without a scientific training understand some of the basic science.

This issue is not about politics.
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Re: Climate Change (Global Warming) Explained
Reply #110 - Nov 5th, 2009 at 11:08pm
 
Have you heard about the icecaps melting on Mars?

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/07aug_southpole.htm

Must be all that CO2 Big Martian Oil and Coal are pumping into the atmosphere over there, making it mostly CO2 by now.  Bastards.
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Re: Climate Change (Global Warming) Explained
Reply #111 - Nov 6th, 2009 at 7:47am
 
Soren wrote on Nov 5th, 2009 at 11:08pm:
Have you heard about the icecaps melting on Mars?

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/07aug_southpole.htm

Must be all that CO2 Big Martian Oil and Coal are pumping into the atmosphere over there, making it mostly CO2 by now.  Bastards.


OK - Here's a video that addresses this particular 'crock' quite well. So I'm not even going to waste my own energy writing a response.

This particular zombie lie is so old and tired that they even had a chance to remix the video. I think it originated around 2002, at a time where perhaps the polar icecaps on Mars was showing signs of shrinkage.

Soren, get the popcorn out:

http://www.desmogblog.com/climate-denial-crock-weekmars-attacks-remixed


Why don't you give me something to sink my teeth into - maybe some more nonsense about Climate Models?
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Re: Climate Change (Global Warming) Explained
Reply #112 - Nov 5th, 2009 at 3:10pm
 
How about this graph Muso. Of course the starting point of a graph can effect the apparent trend (often used against the 'no warming since 1998 claim):



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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #113 - Nov 6th, 2009 at 8:04am
 
Damn, I forgot to lock the Sticky topic.

How is a graph of temperatures in Central England remotely relevant to the topic of Global Warming? As I've said before, regional temperatures can vary enormously from global averages.

As you can see from the animated globe on the post you're referring to, I could easily select a part of the globe that is showing no warming trend, or I could select the Arctic Region and claim that the effect is greater than it actually is.

Let's stick to what's relevant here. Regional temperatures are not.  
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #114 - Nov 6th, 2009 at 8:51am
 
Quote:
Soren,

Ok, maybe I am a Leninist Thatcherite whatever that is. Do you want to add Hitlerite or Husseinite while you're at it. Go on - add Maoist if you like, and why not add Stalin to that assorted list of political name -calling. He was probably the biggest bogeyman of them all


You left out Marxist, and loony bloody lefty.
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Reply #115 - Nov 6th, 2009 at 8:54am
 
LOL - even though it's not relevant, I just wondered what would happen if I extracted the data and subjected it to some analysis.

The nearest thing I could find on that URL on the graph to what it was claimed to be was "Seasonal_HadCET_mean.txt (1659 on)"

First of all the data is broken down into seasons, so I converted the file to a csv, using search and replace to convert the white spaces to commas. Then I calculated the mean temperature for each year and finally calculated running averages over each 10 years so that we can make some sense of the trends.

Guess what? My graph looks nothing like the graph on your post, pjb. It shows a remarkable increase in temperatures in recent times.

Now why does that not surprise me?  Grin

I'm starting to wonder if they actually used any of the data on that site, and if so, which data set did they use?
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Reply #116 - Nov 6th, 2009 at 10:24am
 
Quote:
Quote:
Soren,

Ok, maybe I am a Leninist Thatcherite whatever that is. Do you want to add Hitlerite or Husseinite while you're at it. Go on - add Maoist if you like, and why not add Stalin to that assorted list of political name -calling. He was probably the biggest bogeyman of them all


You left out Marxist, and loony bloody lefty.


ANd now a member of a persecuted religious minority:

Climate change belief given same legal status as religion
An executive has won the right to sue his employer on the basis that he was unfairly dismissed for his green views after a judge ruled that environmentalism had the same weight in law as religious and philosophical beliefs.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/6494213/Climate-change-belief-given-s...
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Reply #117 - Nov 6th, 2009 at 10:43am
 
I wondered how long you would take to come up with that one, Soren. You seem to be very adept at clutching at straws.  Roll Eyes

It doesn't alter the fact that the Scientific basis is quite sound.
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Re: Climate Change (Global Warming) Explained
Reply #118 - Nov 6th, 2009 at 10:44am
 
muso wrote on Nov 6th, 2009 at 7:47am:
Soren wrote on Nov 5th, 2009 at 11:08pm:
Have you heard about the icecaps melting on Mars?

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/07aug_southpole.htm

Must be all that CO2 Big Martian Oil and Coal are pumping into the atmosphere over there, making it mostly CO2 by now.  Bastards.




Why don't you give me something to sink my teeth into - maybe some more nonsense about Climate Models?



Just sink your teeth into that article on the NASA website.


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Re: Climate Change (Global Warming) Explained
Reply #119 - Nov 6th, 2009 at 10:55am
 
Soren wrote on Nov 6th, 2009 at 10:44am:
Just sink your teeth into that article on the NASA website.



Grin Grin Grin I should have actually  read that link. It makes your claim even more hilarious.

Soren, a Martian year is approximately 2 earth years. Sorry, I'll try to compose myself here.

You didn't even link to the usual article about receding polar ice cap over 6 years. LOL. I can't believe that anybody could be so stupid.  Grin Grin Grin

Er,  Look Soren, this article is talking about seasonal changes on Mars. Please read your own link and be very embarrassed:

Quote:
Don't wait too long to look, though, because the ice will soon be gone.
Like Earth, Mars has seasons that cause its polar caps to wax and wane. "It's late spring at the south pole of Mars," says planetary scientist Dave Smith of the Goddard Space Flight Center. "The polar cap is receding because the springtime sun is shining on it."


Now would you like to find the correct link, or do you want me to find it for you?
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Reply #120 - Nov 6th, 2009 at 11:46am
 
Hahahaha... (laughing at you, not near you...)

How long a year is now important? The point is that the phenomenon is cyclical. And occurs where the atmosphere is pure CO2.

"Like Earth, Mars has seasons that cause its polar caps to wax and wane."  Seasons - cyclical - wax and wane - periodic.

Is it like earth or is it not? If it's no worries on Mars, where the ice waxes and wanes even though the atmosphere is pretty much pure CO2, what's the worry here, where CO2 is barely  0.0387 percent of the atmosphere?




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Reply #121 - Nov 6th, 2009 at 1:40pm
 
Soren,

You didn't grasp the point I was making, now did you? The one about seasons, and the fact that the link you provided to illustrate your argument about a long term global warming on Mars, was in fact talking about normal seasonal variation. On Earth, Southern Winter marks an increase in size of Antarctica. On Mars, the Southern winter also corresponds with perihelion (the closest point to the Sun), so Southern winters are much colder than Northern Winters on Mars.


Anyway - Please tell me what normal summer/winter temperature variations have to do with Global Warming on Earth - or Mars for that matter? 

Soren's AAS (Answer Avoidance Strategy)

Ok - You've changed your point again - haven't you? You're dodging the inevital embarassment by making a different point and just pretending that it was the point you were making all along. You might see it as a way of saving face, but people who have been following this thread are perfectly aware of your dodging tactics.

Well, if you persist with dodgy arguments, you need to use dodging tactics.

Answer

Mars and Earth are just not very alike. I have been following the exploration of Mars very closely through another forum:

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/

The Martian atmosphere is extremely thin. On the surface, the atmospheric pressure varies from 0.03kPa to about 1kPa, compared to a mean atmospheric pressur eof 101.325kPa on Earth.

The Martian atmosphere is not exactly a vacuum compared to the surface of the moon, but you would describe it as a medium to high vacuum, comparable to the best vacuum obtainable using a common single stage vacuum pump here on Earth..

So even though the CO2 concentration is around 95%, it's still at an extremely low pressure.  You can't compare apples and pears.

The factor that is important in terms of surface temperature on Mars is the dust content of the atmosphere. Again, totally the opposite applies compared to the Earth. The higher the dust content on Mars, the higher the temperature.
This particular urban legend started because of a sequence of images taken over 6 years in the 1990's that showed a slow decline in the Southern Polar Cap of Mars. Of course, the processes are totally different to that on Earth and there is no evidence of any long term trend, but the urban myth persists.

Didn't you watch the video? It explains it better than I could.
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Reply #122 - Nov 6th, 2009 at 1:59pm
 
The only point is that the many different influences on Martian climate are eagerly taken into account to the extent that a near saturation level CO2 is presented as not really playing an important or significant role in the natural cyclical warming and cooling.

Meanwhile, back on Earth (!)  the change in atmosopheric CO2 from 0.028 % to 0.0387 or even, god help us, 0.05%, is said to  dwarf every other factor into insignificance. Here CO2 in minuscule concentration becomes the predominant climate driver. Oon Mars, saturation levels are of no consequence.


Why?

Because here CO2 can be blamed on human and on Mars it cannot.

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Reply #123 - Nov 6th, 2009 at 2:21pm
 
- because you don't understand high school physics.

Which part of vacuum don't you understand?

Ok, what else? Have you heard of the inverse square law?

What distance is Mars from the Sun?  
What do you think Solar irradiance would be at that distance compared to 1366kW/m2 at the distance of the Earth? *
What is the height of the Martian atmosphere?

Don't you think that CO2 causes a greenhouse effect on Mars?

Of course it does, but there are other considerations that I think you can work out for yourself. (if you wanted to)

*(OK - I'll tell you - it's 590 kW/m2)
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Reply #124 - Nov 6th, 2009 at 2:54pm
 
The Greenhouse Effect of the Earth's Atmosphere heats the planet by around 38 Celsius degrees.

For Mars, the Atmosphere heats the planet by about 5 Celsius degrees.

The Greenhouse effect of the Venusian atmosphere heats the planet Venus by about 560 Celsius degrees. If Venus had no atmosphere, its temperature would be below zero Celsius.

The main factors governing the Greenhouse effect on Mars are the low atmospheric pressure, the low solar irradiance and the fact that the Martian Atmosphere is much shallower than that of the Earth.

However, in the Martian Southern Spring the Southern Polar Cap starts to off-gas carbon dioxide, leading to a localised warming effect due to the greenhouse effect of the CO2 given off (plus increased dust ). Even relatively close to the Poles, the temperature can rise to about 30 degrees C as a result.  

By the way, I didn't need to research any of this. Mars has always been a keen interest of mine.
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Reply #125 - Nov 6th, 2009 at 7:47pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 6th, 2009 at 2:54pm:
The Greenhouse Effect of the Earth's Atmosphere heats the planet by around 38 Celsius degrees.

For Mars, the Atmosphere heats the planet by about 5 Celsius degrees.

The Greenhouse effect of the Venusian atmosphere heats the planet Venus by about 560 Celsius degrees. If Venus had no atmosphere, its temperature would be below zero Celsius.

The main factors governing the Greenhouse effect on Mars are the low atmospheric pressure, the low solar irradiance and the fact that the Martian Atmosphere is much shallower than that of the Earth.

However, in the Martian Southern Spring the Southern Polar Cap starts to off-gas carbon dioxide, leading to a localised warming effect due to the greenhouse effect of the CO2 given off (plus increased dust ). Even relatively close to the Poles, the temperature can rise to about 30 degrees C as a result.  

By the way, I didn't need to research any of this. Mars has always been a keen interest of mine.


And of course none of this matters on Earth. Everywhere else it is a complex issue  - here the only thing that matters is the change of CO2 from 0.028 % of the atmosphere to 0.0387 % and even 0.050 %. ANd that only because we can pin it on the pasty faced hite guys with fat wallets.

Science is amazing, isn't it (for an invention of said pasty faced white guys.)


Sign the petition:

http://www.corybernardi.com/




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Reply #126 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 6:13am
 
Soren wrote on Nov 6th, 2009 at 7:47pm:
And of course none of this matters on Earth. Everywhere else it is a complex issue  - here the only thing that matters is the change of CO2 from 0.028 % of the atmosphere to 0.0387 % and even 0.050 %. ANd that only because we can pin it on the pasty faced hite guys with fat wallets.

Science is amazing, isn't it (for an invention of said pasty faced white guys.)



What on Earth ae you talking about Soren? The laws of Physics apply equally well to other planets. Do you think you could live on Mars or Venus?  I'm really not sure what you're saying here.

As for your comment about changing CO2 levels, are you attacking basic Physics now?

Pasty faced white guys? Is that some kind of stereotype of scientists ?

You didn't understand a word of my explanation, did you?

Maybe I should dumb it down for you - Remember how you complained in another thread about dumb rappers?

This You-tube video should be anathema for you.  Warning - It contains Scientists (who are not pasty-faced) and rappers who are not black. Maybe I should make a rap video like this to explain the salient points about Global Warming.

Unfortunately they break your stereotypes.

http://vodpod.com/watch/937283-large-hadron-rap
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Reply #127 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 7:06am
 
Here it is slowly:

The irrelevance of saturation CO2 in the atmosphre to seasonal melting and freezing on Mars is explained by refernce to complex science. Other factors are more important, don't you know, and all that.

The centrality of a miniscule change in the miniscule CO2 levels in the atmosphere here are explained by refernce to complex science. Other factors are less important, don't you know, and all that.

In Copenhagen there is going to be a push  for a massive shake-down of pasty faced white guys (us in the developed countries) who also happened to invent science. The science which is used to explain the relevance/irrelevance of complex factors, depending on what promotes the success of the shake-down.






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Reply #128 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 7:08am
 
Soren wrote on Nov 6th, 2009 at 7:47pm:


Oh he should get a tremendous groundswill of support from the vast, highly educated population of South Australia, including such pearls of wisdom as this:

Quote:
YOU CANT ARGUE WITH THE WORLDS BEST CLIMATOLIGIST WHO HAS A QUANTIFIED EQUASION .ABOUT TIME ,THE RACE ISSUE IS ANOTHER SCARE TACTIC FROM THE COMMUNIST EU TO CHANGE SOME LAW FOR SURE, THEY LIKE THE SCARE TACTICS.


Is "Jack" any relation of yours, Soren?  Grin
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Reply #129 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 7:23am
 
Soren wrote on Nov 7th, 2009 at 7:06am:
Here it is slowly:

The irrelevance of saturation CO2 in the atmosphre to seasonal melting and freezing on Mars is explained by refernce to complex science. Other factors are more important, don't you know, and all that.

The centrality of a miniscule change in the miniscule CO2 levels in the atmosphere here are explained by refernce to complex science. Other factors are less important, don't you know, and all that.

In Copenhagen there is going to be a push  for a massive shake-down of pasty faced white guys (us in the developed countries) who also happened to invent science. The science which is used to explain the relevance/irrelevance of complex factors, depending on what promotes the success of the shake-down.



THe climate on Mars is extremely complex. We're only just starting to get a handle on it now. If you read this fact sheet, you'll see that there are a number of factors that drive it, and it has little in common with that of the Earth:

http://www.howard.k12.md.us/white/FastFactsMarsClimate.html

Mars doesn't have life, let alone a finely balanced set of ecosystems and over 6 billion people.

As far as the Earth is concerned, there are certainly a lot of complex factors that define the Earth's climate. However, the increase in greenhouse gases in the atmosphere is the parameter that will upset the fine balance on Earth, and we are already starting to see some very early signs of that happening.

It's a bit like the human brain. If you drink alcohol, you change the way it operates. It may be a very complicated system, but the factor that determines the change in behaviour is down to one input variable - the alcohol consumed.

Substitute atmospheric circulation for brain, and greenhouse gases for alcohol in the above example and you get the general idea.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #130 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 10:00am
 
muso wrote on Nov 7th, 2009 at 7:23am:
It's a bit like the human brain. If you drink alcohol, you change the way it operates. It may be a very complicated system, but the factor that determines the change in behaviour is down to one input variable - the alcohol consumed.

Substitute atmospheric circulation for brain, and greenhouse gases for alcohol in the above example and you get the general idea.


That harks to the Gia hypothesis, beloved by extreme environmentalists. Ie that the Earth is like one single organism floating in space. I think your analogy is a weak one, comparing our internal biological mechanisms and the effect of biologically active agents on them to CO2 and the atmosphere. 
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Reply #131 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 10:21am
 
pjb05 wrote on Nov 7th, 2009 at 10:00am:
muso wrote on Nov 7th, 2009 at 7:23am:
It's a bit like the human brain. If you drink alcohol, you change the way it operates. It may be a very complicated system, but the factor that determines the change in behaviour is down to one input variable - the alcohol consumed.

Substitute atmospheric circulation for brain, and greenhouse gases for alcohol in the above example and you get the general idea.


That harks to the Gia hypothesis, beloved by extreme environmentalists. Ie that the Earth is like one single organism floating in space. I think your analogy is a weak one, comparing our internal biological mechanisms and the effect of biologically active agents on them to CO2 and the atmosphere.  


If you can't understand the science, I am compelled to provide analogies, weak or otherwise.

Of course there is a difference between not being able to understand and not wanting to understand.

The "Gaia hypothesis" actually works quite well. The Earth tends to compensate for changes quite well. Microbial life is a very important buffer to maintaining viable atmospheric conditions- but there are limits.  James Lovelock and other supporters of the idea now call it "Gaia theory", regarding it as a scientific theory and not mere hypothesis, since they believe it has passed predictive tests.

It's certainly undeniable that life has altered the composition of the Earth's atmosphere, starting with blue-green algae (Cyanobacteria) and that the Earth's combined ecology tends to provide some degree of homeostasis. Of course, the concept of a conscious Gaia is not mainstream. That's the domain of some very drug-altered individuals who usually grow their hair long.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #132 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 10:45am
 
Your patience truly astounds me Muso, the denialists are not the least interested in reason, or science, for them it is a purely political issue, soren admits as much in his response that claims that all these scientists are just colluding to shake down rich white guys.

I have given up even trying to debate this issue with denialists, they are plain old extremist fruitcakes, who tie together their GW conspiracy theories, with 9/11 theories, or ultra nationalism, or extreme right religious propaganda, and even leftie/racist arguments, so good luck, but I fear you may as well be trying to teach honesty to politicians.
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Reply #133 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 11:02am
 
mozzaok wrote on Nov 7th, 2009 at 10:45am:
I have given up even trying to debate this issue with denialists, they are plain old extremist fruitcakes...


That's others - Not you, Soren.

Actually you'd be surprised how many people out there think that AGW is a hoax.  A friend of mine who owns a small business is convinced that it's a conspiracy. His business association puts out a magazine with a great many denialist articles.  The majority are just ordinary people who understand neither the science nor the magnitude of the problem.
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Reply #134 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 11:17am
 
Unfortunately Muso, I am not surprised, because the denialist PR people have successfully turned an issue that deserves the attention and applied support, of all people, to successfully address it, into a political issue, rather than the scientifically supported, environmental issue, that it really is.

So while we see the "You First" brigade, and the "Conspirinut" brigades, openly creating mass confusion, through shameless deceit then we will see the same old suspects joining the chorus of denial.
The voice of ignorance is rarely quiet.
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Reply #135 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 3:31pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 7th, 2009 at 10:21am:
[

The "Gaia hypothesis" actually works quite well. The Earth tends to compensate for changes quite well. Microbial life is a very important buffer to maintaining viable atmospheric conditions- but there are limits.  James Lovelock and other supporters of the idea now call it "Gaia theory", regarding it as a scientific theory and not mere hypothesis, since they believe it has passed predictive tests.



Isn't Lovelock the guy who said that AGW will reduce the human population to a few breeding pairs in Antarctica? Regarding the statement you highlighted, isn't that at odds with you catastrophic claims resulting from climate change (eg the GBR to be extinct in 50 years)?
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Reply #136 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 6:22pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 6th, 2009 at 8:54am:
LOL - even though it's not relevant, I just wondered what would happen if I extracted the data and subjected it to some analysis.

The nearest thing I could find on that URL on the graph to what it was claimed to be was "Seasonal_HadCET_mean.txt (1659 on)"

First of all the data is broken down into seasons, so I converted the file to a csv, using search and replace to convert the white spaces to commas. Then I calculated the mean temperature for each year and finally calculated running averages over each 10 years so that we can make some sense of the trends.

Guess what? My graph looks nothing like the graph on your post, pjb. It shows a remarkable increase in temperatures in recent times.

Now why does that not surprise me?  Grin

I'm starting to wonder if they actually used any of the data on that site, and if so, which data set did they use?


Remarkable? I can see a couple of periods of rising temperatures on your version that look remarkably similar to the recent warming!
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Reply #137 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 6:37pm
 
pjb05 wrote on Nov 7th, 2009 at 3:31pm:
muso wrote on Nov 7th, 2009 at 10:21am:
[

The "Gaia hypothesis" actually works quite well. The Earth tends to compensate for changes quite well. Microbial life is a very important buffer to maintaining viable atmospheric conditions- but there are limits.  James Lovelock and other supporters of the idea now call it "Gaia theory", regarding it as a scientific theory and not mere hypothesis, since they believe it has passed predictive tests.



Isn't Lovelock the guy who said that AGW will reduce the human population to a few breeding pairs in Antartica? Regarding the statement you highlighted, isn't that at odds with you catastrophic claims resulting from climate change (eg the GBR to be extinct in 50 years)?


He said something about people living in Antarctica but he was referring to the distant future. I attended his talk in Adelaide a couple of years ago. A few breeding pairs ? no. He did say that maybe 2 billion of us would survive, but he didn't give a timescale.

As far as the Great Barrier Reef being extinct in 50 years, that's pretty well mainstream thought now. A lot of work has been done since AR4 in 2007.  By about 2055, the rate of calcification will not be able to keep pace with the rate of erosion, so the GBR will start a fairly rapid decline.  

There has been a considerable amount of work done on this at James Cook University in Townsville, and a great deal more since the following book was published:  

Climate Change and the Great Barrier Reef: A Vulnerability Assessment

Quote:
There is overwhelming evidence that corals and the reefs they build will not be able to maintain themselves or grow if CO2 concentrations rise above 500 parts per million. This level of CO2 is at the lower end of the range of greenhouse scenarios for the end of this century.
(For the last few years, carbon emissions have been at the upper range of IPCC Scenarios.)

You can download the entire publication here:
http://www.gbrmpa.gov.au/corp_site/info_services/publications/misc_pub/climate_c...

Even back in 2004, a WWF Report stated that:

Quote:
Change to the health of our ecosystems as a result of climate change is inevitable. Even under the best case scenario, losses of at least 50% of the Reef’s living coral cover are likely to occur by 2050.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #138 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 6:43pm
 
I see that I didn't answer your question. The Earth's Ecosystems can adapt quite well, but not well enough to cope with 7 extra Gigatonnes of carbon emissions per year. Around the year 2000, it was estimated that dropping to 2 Gigatonnes per annum would result in the  atmospheric concentration of CO2 stabilising. I don't know offhand what that figure would be now.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #139 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 7:47pm
 
pjb05 wrote on Nov 7th, 2009 at 6:22pm:
Remarkable? I can see a couple of periods of rising temperatures on your version that look remarkably similar to the recent warming!


OK, first of all bear in mind that it's data from Central England, not Global data.

There have been warming periods in the past, but the mechanism was different. That's not a cop-out either. To explain that, we'd have to look at Solar Irradiance proxies, and most of the work in that area has been done by the Max Plank Institute using a number of proxies. Let me just look that up and we'll take a look at what the Sun has been doing over that period (I hope it's published on the web).

Of course, there was the Maunder minimum in the late 17th Century, so the first temperature increase may well be a result of the recovery from that period.  

The last 50 years has shown a steady decline in Solar output, yet there has been a  rise in global mean temperature.  

For approximately 10,000 years before that, there was excellent correlation between solar output and global average temperature.

Prior to 10,000 years BP, this correlation ended as the Milankovich Orbital variationbecame the dominant factor. The main driver for the last period of glaciation was related to the Earth's tilt and the eccentricity of its orbit. Changes in the sun's output became a secondary factor.
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Reply #140 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 8:22pm
 
These people are under continual disquietudes, never enjoying a minutes
peace of mind; and their disturbances proceed from causes which very
little affect the rest of mortals.  Their apprehensions arise from
several changes they dread in the celestial bodies: for instance, that
the earth, by the continual approaches of the sun towards it, must, in
course of time, be absorbed, or swallowed up; that the face of the sun,
will, by degrees, be encrusted with its own effluvia, and give no more
light to the world; that the earth very narrowly escaped a brush from the
tail of the last comet, which would have infallibly reduced it to ashes;
and that the next, which they have calculated for one-and-thirty years
hence, will probably destroy us
.  For if, in its perihelion, it should
approach within a certain degree of the sun (as by their calculations
they have reason to dread) it will receive a degree of heat ten thousand
times more intense than that of red hot glowing iron, and in its absence
from the sun, carry a blazing tail ten hundred thousand and fourteen
miles long, through which, if the earth should pass at the distance of
one hundred thousand miles from the nucleus, or main body of the comet,
it must in its passage be set on fire, and reduced to ashes: that the
sun, daily spending its rays without any nutriment to supply them, will
at last be wholly consumed and annihilated; which must be attended with
the destruction of this earth, and of all the planets that receive their
light from it.

They are so perpetually alarmed with the apprehensions of these, and the
like impending dangers, that they can neither sleep quietly in their
beds, nor have any relish for the common pleasures and amusements of
life.  When they meet an acquaintance in the morning, the first question
is about the sun's health, how he looked at his setting and rising, and
what hopes they have to avoid the stroke of the approaching comet.  This
conversation they are apt to run into with the same temper that boys
discover in delighting to hear terrible stories of spirits and
hobgoblins, which they greedily listen to, and dare not go to bed for
fear.

Jonathan Swift

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #141 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 10:26pm
 
This may surprise you, but I'm not some eccentric Cassandro trying to get you all to wear tinfoil hats.

I'm doing no more than trying to explain the science to you. This is mainstream stuff. The blogosphere has been filled with total nonsense which you are quite happy to regurgitate.

For once, Kevin Rudd was right in a recent speech that warned of the danger of what he called Climate Sceptics. In an age where people prefer the truth according to Facebook and Twitter rumours, we are in danger of being overrun by a growing idiocracy that guffaws at good hard science.

Quote:
"Formica Davis: Well it started off boring and slow with Not Sure trying to bullshit everyone with a bunch of smart talk: Blah blah blah. You gotta believe me! That part of the trial sucked! But then the Chief J. just went off. He said, Man, whatever! The guys guilty as poo! We all know that. And he sentenced his ass to one night of rehabilitation."

(From Idiocracy)

   
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #142 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 10:41pm
 
Jonathan Swift is not on Facebook.  Nor Twitter.

Dead for 250 years, yet he is pertinent. Fancy that!! - a longer view.







Muso, in all seriousness, what bit of climate doom, presented 50 or a 100 years ago, does still hold today? Indeed, what bit of climate science of 1959 or 1909 or 1859 does still hold today?





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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #143 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 10:53pm
 
Soren wrote on Nov 7th, 2009 at 10:41pm:
Jonathan Swift is not on Facebook.  Nor Twitter.

Dead for 250 years, yet he is pertinent. Fancy that!! - a longer view.







Muso, in all seriousness, what bit of climate doom, presented 50 or a 100 years ago, does still hold today? Indeed, what bit of climate science of 1959 or 1909 or 1859 does still hold today?



I know who Jonathon Swift is. I read Gulliver's Travels when I was about 9.

Well,  the basic physics hasn't changed too much since the days of Arrhenius in the 19th Century. There is nothing difficult or controversial about the Basic Physics.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/4314542
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Reply #144 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 10:59pm
 
Dear Sir Muso

Where is the hard evidence tying man to the current level of CO2 levels?

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Reply #145 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 11:00pm
 
Thank you.  Read the sticky posts.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1247904929

If there is something you don't understand, please ask here.
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Reply #146 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 11:01pm
 
Off topic remark removed. Please keep to the Topic.

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Reply #147 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 11:05pm
 
muso wrote on Nov 7th, 2009 at 11:00pm:
Thank you.  Read the sticky posts.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1247904929

If there is something you don't understand, please ask here.


So where is the irrefutable evidence that man is responsible?

You don't have any.
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Reply #148 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 11:07pm
 
JM,

Let's keep this on topic. I would love it if somebody would actually try to follow the argument without being blinded by a personal agenda.

I won't delete any more of your posts if you promise not to make any more personal attacks.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #149 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 11:10pm
 
Quote:
So where is the irrefutable evidence that man is responsible?

You don't have any.


There is certainly irrefutable evidence. Let's start with the carbon balance.

How accurately do you think we can measure the amount of Oil, Coal and Natural Gas that is being burnt every year?
What about Cement Production? How accurately do you think we ca measure that?
How accurately do you think we can measure the Carbon dioxide content of the atmosphere ?
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Reply #150 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 11:17pm
 
The IPCC is only 90% certain...if you have evidence to the contrary you should submit it and make a hero of yourself
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #151 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 11:22pm
 
Quote:
The IPCC is only 90% certain...if you have evidence to the contrary you should submit it and make a hero of yourself


That was in 2007. A lot of work has been done since then.

Actually their term “very likely” means 90-99% certain if you read the report correctly.  The certainty has increased even more since then. I need to sleep right now, but if you promise to listen, I'll do my best to explain point by point.  

http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports//tar/vol4/english/wg1fnspm.htm

Quote:
In this Summary for Policymakers and in the Technical Summary, the following words have been used where appropriate to indicate judgmental estimates of confidence: virtually certain (greater than 99% chance that a result is true); very likely (90-99% chance); likely (66-90% chance); medium likelihood (33-66% chance); unlikely (10-33% chance); very unlikely (1-10% chance); exceptionally unlikely (less than 1% chance). The reader is referred to individual chapters for more details.



As far as developments since 2007, you can also read  the Copenhagen Synthesis Report. It's quite easy reading. 

http://climatecongress.ku.dk/pdf/synthesisreport/

and this document:

http://eelinks.wordpress.com/2009/07/25/keynewcience/
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Reply #152 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 11:27pm
 
It was 'very likely' that cold fusion was going to happen in my sink too  Cheesy Grin
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #153 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 11:29pm
 
No,  I think that was next to impossible. Cold Fusion didn't even get one paper past Peer Review. If you're going to deprive me of sleep (I got up very early this morning) then please take it seriously.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #154 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 11:33pm
 
The language has changed totally in recent publications:

Quote:
The scientific evidence today overwhelmingly indicates that allowing
the emission of greenhouse gases from human activities to continue
unchecked constitutes a significant threat to the well-being and
continued development of contemporary society. The knowledge
that human activities are influencing the climate gives contemporary
society the responsibility to act.
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Reply #155 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 11:38pm
 
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The language has changed totally in recent publications:


Which would indicate that the 'certainty' is no longer there.

If the data changes, then change the rules for reporting the data...your type will ignore that sort of thing
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Reply #156 - Nov 7th, 2009 at 11:45pm
 
Quote:
Quote:
The language has changed totally in recent publications:


Which would indicate that the 'certainty' is no longer there.

If the data changes, then change the rules for reporting the data...your type will ignore that sort of thing


The conventions applied for the AR4 Public Policy Report in 2007 were simply phrases that were used to indicate the certainty. If you read those two links with an open mind, you'll see that a considerable amount of new work has been done, and that words like 'conclusive' are being used.  

Quote:
Recent revisions of projected changes are higher than earlier estimates and the IPCC projections published in 2007 now appear rather conservative in light of more recent observations and improved modeling techniques. Fortunately, strong policies to reduce greenhouse gas emissions can still avert the worst consequences of climate change.


I'll continue tomorrow if you're still interested.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #157 - Dec 7th, 2009 at 12:54pm
 
I hope this is the most appropriate place to put this.  It is rather difficult amongst a number of similar thread.  I've only had a quick look at the first 6 pages of this thread.

muso wrote on Nov 9th, 2009 at 7:36am:
A Carbon Tax would work better than emissions trading. As I've said before, emissions trading is too prone to abuse.

Malcolm Turnbull has quite a plausible position on this. If he had caucus support, I think the Libs could have come up with a better scheme than the ALP.

I've seen the ALP's Department of Climate Change in action in Canberra, and wasn't too impressed. Enough said.

When you're given 2 working days to review a document that's about 140 pages long, it shows how much they are rushing headlong into this and making mistakes along the way.


What follows is my understanding of the carbon tax vs. emissions trading debate.

We have known the ETS is a cap & trade system for a long time now.
Which of course means small business will do their job, sell their permits and big business will pollute just as much as they do now as they'll have all the permits. It essentially becomes a monopoly or an oligopoly.

Small business could then make a mistake and actually produce more carbon than it should but then get fined (I'm assuming a fine is an option for a breach) because there are no permits left to buy (trade) since big business has them all and isn't willing.

The small business is then forced out of the market place and goes out of business.

This is of no concern to big business. Big business puts the prices up to pay for new costs as they have always done.

The consumer pays more. Making ends meet becomes more difficult.

Sounds like a Tax.   Not a tax per se but this is why it is broadly called a tax.

The concept of a carbon tax is actually simple and easy to understand.  It is broad based and applies equally to all.  The CIS have outlined quite nicely how a carbon tax would work.  I think it would be more saleable in the broader electorate which thus far has confessed it does not understand the ETS.

As far as I can tell, the only reason we're introducing an ETS is because most of the rest of the world is and it is easier to trade like with like (ETS & ETS) instead of like with unlike (ETS & Carbon Tax).

Feel free to correct the errors and erroneous assumptions I have made with facts.  Some of it may have all ready been discussed.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #158 - Dec 7th, 2009 at 1:44pm
 
I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's very difficult to criticise a Carbon Tax.  If the French can do it, so can we.

Proponents of the ETS will argue that it's a cap and trade system, and it achieves the objective of reducing carbon emissions by X% by a certain date.  However, you can achieve exactly the same with a carbon tax, and it's fairer to everybody. Anyone with a calculator can work out what the tax must be raised to, and when.

Tony Abbott was on the news last night saying that the great Australian Coal industry must stay in business.

The point that everybody is missing is that it has to eventually go out of business. If it doesn't, civilisation is going down the tubes.  Kevin Rudd conveniently dodges the obvious by talking about clean coal. Clean Coal will never happen - it's pure fantasy. Cloud Cuckoo land.

He talks about clean coal only because it's politically expedient for him.

By the way, the consumer pays more whichever way you work it, at least in the short run. The price of renewable energy will come down with increased demand, and the whole intention is to subsidise renewables in the short term using the Carbon Tax - otherwise, what''s the point ?

Eventually there will be no carbon tax revenue, because everybody will have switched to renewables.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #159 - Dec 7th, 2009 at 8:36pm
 
muso wrote on Dec 7th, 2009 at 1:44pm:
I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's very difficult to criticise a Carbon Tax.  If the French can do it, so can we.


Vel,  'ello?!?



With over 75% of their electricity coming from nuclear power, it's easy for the French to slap a bit of tax on the what's left.


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Reply #160 - Dec 7th, 2009 at 9:18pm
 
Oh my God!! Now the Palestinians are against AGW, branding it a lie!
Everything the Palestinians are against is a Zionist plot - AGW is a Zioniast plot!!! Can't you see?!



The Myths of Global Warming, Part 6: Do you think they are lying? Of course they are!
http://www.paltelegraph.com/columnists/peter-eyre/3060-the-myths-of-global-warmi...

The Palestine Telegraph (we change the world).



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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #161 - Dec 8th, 2009 at 8:38am
 
Soren wrote on Dec 7th, 2009 at 8:36pm:
muso wrote on Dec 7th, 2009 at 1:44pm:
I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's very difficult to criticise a Carbon Tax.  If the French can do it, so can we.


Vel,  'ello?!?

With over 75% of their electricity coming from nuclear power, it's easy for the French to slap a bit of tax on the what's left.



Agreed - we have a much bigger obstacle to overcome. There are a lot of differences between Australia and France in terms of power infrastructure, and they do have three times our population.

With China and India now looking at quite enormous reductions in greenhouse gases, coal might not be as exportable a commodity in years to come, particularly since Australia just provides the coal that China doesn't produce domestically.

They are capable of producing about 4 billion tonnes per year, and they import about the same.

We could get rid of our domestic coal fired power stations and replace them with a combination of geothermal and solar within 30 years. In fact we'll have to. Nuclear might be an option, although globally it's more advantageous  to sell it to countries with low potential for large geothermal and solar power generation.

Coal doesn't have much of a future.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #162 - Dec 8th, 2009 at 8:41am
 
Soren wrote on Dec 7th, 2009 at 9:18pm:
Oh my God!! Now the Palestinians are against AGW, branding it a lie!
Everything the Palestinians are against is a Zionist plot - AGW is a Zioniast plot!!! Can't you see?!



The Myths of Global Warming, Part 6: Do you think they are lying? Of course they are!
http://www.paltelegraph.com/columnists/peter-eyre/3060-the-myths-of-global-warmi...

The Palestine Telegraph (we change the world).



Roll Eyes  Oh God - undersea volcanic activity in the Arctic. Haven't they heard of ΔH°=SMΔT ? We'd need something like 100 times the volcanic heat flux generated by all the volcanoes on earth to have that effect.

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #163 - Dec 8th, 2009 at 10:43am
 
FROM

muso wrote on Dec 8th, 2009 at 8:38am:
If the French can do it, so can we.



TO

Quote:
Agreed - we have a much bigger obstacle to overcome.




Why are you reminding me of Tim Flip-Flop Flannery?
Tongue
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Reply #164 - Dec 8th, 2009 at 11:45am
 
I was just making an observation. Not everything I say should be construed as a counter argument, and besides, we were discussing two separate issues 1. The Carbon Tax and 2. The provision of carbon neutral power generation.

1. I still think that we can build a power generation network with a low carbon footprint, much as the French have done. It doesn't necessarily have to be nuclear though.

2. I acknowledge that we're starting the race a few hundred metres behind the French in one respect, but I still think that we can (and have to) introduce a carbon tax system. We have more obstacles initially but we can overcome these obstacles.

3. As we progress with building new renewable energy projects, the Carbon tax impact will become less and less.

Just because we are behind the 8 ball in terms of existing coal-fired power stations, doesn't mean that we have to stay behind the 8 ball.

We have advantages that France don't have:

For example, the fact that France imports all of its Uranium. It's very resource deficient. On the other hand, we have the world's biggest reserves of Uranium.

Another point is that while France have geothermal assets in the Massif Centrale, they don't have anything like enough to provide their population with power. Australia has enough proven geothermal reserves to provide approximately 60% of our needs.

We also have a lot more open country that could be used for solar power, and a much higher  power ratio per square metre as a result of our increased sunshine and proximity to the equator.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #165 - Dec 8th, 2009 at 11:54am
 
muso wrote on Dec 8th, 2009 at 11:45am:
I was just making an observation. Not everything I say should be construed as a counter argument.


No, you were calling to action ("so can we"). As if there was an easy parallel between France and us and copying the French was just a matter of wanting to something good, like loving your mum.


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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #166 - Dec 8th, 2009 at 2:51pm
 
Soren wrote on Dec 8th, 2009 at 11:54am:
muso wrote on Dec 8th, 2009 at 11:45am:
I was just making an observation. Not everything I say should be construed as a counter argument.


No, you were calling to action ("so can we"). As if there was an easy parallel between France and us and copying the French was just a matter of wanting to something good, like loving your mum.



- and if you read the rest of my post I was making the point that although both countries are starting from a different position, Australia has one or two trump cards.  France is not really better placed than Australia for those reasons.

I acknowledge that there is no easy parallel, but I dispute your implied point that they are significantly better placed than us.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #167 - Dec 9th, 2009 at 7:18am
 
Every nation will have it's own unique issues to deal with, but what can be agreed upon is that they all need to address their individual issues with an earnest desire to contribute to improving their own carbon emmissions reductions as rapidly, and comprehensively, as those individual issues allow.

The Denialist argument of saying that nobody should do anything, until everybody does everything, is merely another stalling tactic devised by big polluters who are attempting to avoid being held responsible for their own Carbon emmissions for as long as they possibly can.

The time has come to demand these big polluters stop adding their self serving, sponsored, confusionalist lies, to the issue, in seeking to avoid addressing their already irresponsible emmission levels, and begin taking the steps they know they will eventually be forced to, and the sooner the better. Angry
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #168 - Dec 10th, 2009 at 9:09pm
 
Assuming the ETS cap & trade system comes in - does anyone know how they plan to enforce the cap?  What happens if there is a breach?

I know they're meant to trade emission permits to cover it but what-if for some reason they cannot?
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Reply #169 - Dec 10th, 2009 at 10:47pm
 
If you have emitted more CO2 or its eqivalent than you have permits then you will need to buy more permits, through whichever means possible. You might buy them on the domestic market, or an overseas market that is integrated with the Australian scheme. There are all sorts of other mechanisms available to acquire emissions permits, such as via the Clean Development Mechanism which creates emission credits in return for reducing emissions in developing economies (where it is theoretically cheaper to reduce emisisons). If, for whatever reason, you can't get the permits through any of these means, then you get fined. But you may as well just buy the permits because it's cheaper. If you can't afford either you will get bankrupted, just like if you can't pay any other type of debt.

(By the way, the amount of the fine serves as a cap on the carbon price, because if the permit price went higher than the fine, emitters would keep their permits and pay the fine, thus reducing the demand for permits and hence the price of permits.)

There are also mechanisms allowing emitters to borrow permits from future years, but there are very specific limits on this.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #170 - Dec 11th, 2009 at 9:23am
 
Thanks Paella. In your opinion, can the same thing be achieved by a carbon tax?
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Reply #171 - Dec 11th, 2009 at 5:15pm
 
Yes, I think the same reductions can be achieved by a carbon tax. As to whether it can do so as efficiently as a cap and trade system, well that depends on how much faith you have in financial markets. Until November last year, I'd have said that emissions trading was definitely the way to go, but I have really had my eyes opened as to just how badly markets can get it wrong.

No one asked me, but I'll venture my opinion on the best way to reduce emissions anyway. Look to the economy that has done the most to reduce its emissions so far: it's clearly China. Why have they done so well? Becuase China has a command economy. Now we can either go that way voluntarily (which we won't), or wait until there's a billion Northern Hemisphere refugees on our doorstep and introduce war-time style "emergency" measures. Either way, the result is the same. Only a command economy can solve this problem.

So goodbye democracy.  Cry It was a really good idea, and it was fun for a long time, but it never really worked for its victims in the colonised lands, and in the longer term, it didn't work for us either.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #172 - Dec 11th, 2009 at 5:38pm
 
Senexx wrote on Dec 10th, 2009 at 9:09pm:
Assuming the ETS cap & trade system comes in - does anyone know how they plan to enforce the cap?  What happens if there is a breach?

I know they're meant to trade emission permits to cover it but what-if for some reason they cannot?

They'll burn ya...
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #173 - Dec 11th, 2009 at 7:55pm
 
Paella wrote on Dec 11th, 2009 at 5:15pm:
Yes, I think the same reductions can be achieved by a carbon tax. As to whether it can do so as efficiently as a cap and trade system, well that depends on how much faith you have in financial markets. Until November last year, I'd have said that emissions trading was definitely the way to go, but I have really had my eyes opened as to just how badly markets can get it wrong.
...................
So goodbye democracy.  Cry It was a really good idea, and it was fun for a long time, but it never really worked for its victims in the colonised lands, and in the longer term, it didn't work for us either.


Apart from that, I think that there is a lot more scope for manipulation under an emissions trading scheme. I think that a carbon tax is by far the fairer system. It's just a question of an annual review of the rate to keep us on track.

I made the same comment about democracy a long time ago. In order to do what has to be done, the Chinese autocratic system has a lot going for it.

Democracy may be seen as a luxury we can't afford, especially with populations being so easily manipulated.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #174 - Jan 6th, 2010 at 5:07pm
 
Muso, you are a sincere, thorough and well researched thinker who has shown herculean patience and balanced politeness. I know why you persist replying to mostly rot, so thank you. I will, as time permits, do you the proper courtesy and read though " Climate Change (Global Warming) Explained ".

Soren, you are a reasonable Sophist that is skilled enough to muddle the average Joe, none critical reader/thinker. But mate you really should understand that your real value to the Environment board has been representing countless stupid and deceptive items (cringe calling them facts) which have all been rebuted beautifully and with deft superiority.

It would be funny, if such continued rot did not threaten the future happiness of my children.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #175 - Jan 6th, 2010 at 8:02pm
 
locutius wrote on Jan 6th, 2010 at 5:07pm:
Muso, you are a sincere, thorough and well researched thinker who has shown herculean patience and balanced politeness. I know why you persist replying to mostly rot, so thank you. I will, as time permits, do you the proper courtesy and read though " Climate Change (Global Warming) Explained ".

Soren, you are a reasonable Sophist that is skilled enough to muddle the average Joe, none critical reader/thinker. But mate you really should understand that your real value to the Environment board has been representing countless stupid and deceptive items (cringe calling them facts) which have all been rebuted beautifully and with deft superiority.

It would be funny, if such continued rot did not threaten the future happiness of my children.



Glad you are convinced.

AGM is still crap. Carbon trading is a colossal con.

ANd your children's happiness lies elsewhere.





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Reply #176 - Jan 7th, 2010 at 6:37am
 
You're glad I'm convinced of what exactly?

"Oh AGM is crap". OK, that's actually a perfect summary of the depth and quality of the arguments?? (not sure that's the right word) you keep throwing into the lion's pit.

Carbon trading is a con. But I guess only slightly less stupid than doing nothing

I tell you one thing that was convincing and that that was the total assasination of a graph you presented earlier by the Australian SciFi novelist and that you ridiculed the intelligent disection of a ridiculous graph. The writting of this bloke may very well be an inside job to make the denialist camp look even more stupid or simply more dishonest than they already are. But of course what would 98% of all the worlds scientists know compared to people like Monckton, the blue-blood rentboy of big industry.

What other scientific knowledge or disciplines do you ridicule, or is it just the ones that suit your political agenda?
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #177 - Jan 7th, 2010 at 7:38am
 
Great to see some posts from our old friend Locutius.

I think his point to Soren is that while denialists make claims of scientific backing for their position, they stridently try and misrepresent the work of scientists, whilst absolutely and invariably avoiding all the most relevant scientific opinions, instead choosing to champion the extremist posturing from psuedo-science as the more valid choice to make.

That is why refuted lies, and debunked myths never die in the topsy turvy denialist world, where up is down, and hot is cooling. Wink
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Reply #178 - Jan 7th, 2010 at 10:42am
 
Welcome back Locutius. You were missed.
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Reply #179 - Jan 7th, 2010 at 11:17am
 
locutius wrote on Jan 7th, 2010 at 6:37am:
What other scientific knowledge or disciplines do you ridicule, or is it just the ones that suit your political agenda?


Here's one for starters:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1262739041/0#0

Grin Grin


I have a political agenda?

But nice Mr Monbiot, for example, doesn't?? Or Mr Rudd? Gore? The peer-review nobbling scientists don't?



Aha!! It's only the 'deniers' that have political agendas! Zzzzzz..... Just one more instance of the unthinking, reflex 'gotcha' political stupidity from the people who are pleased to call themselves 'progressive'. Their moral preening and vanity have no limit.

Are you a 'progressive'?
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Reply #180 - Jan 7th, 2010 at 11:27am
 
There are some amazing things coming out of Russia ranging from the downright kookie to the out and out weird.  The Russians have always had the world's best kooks and weirdos.

This guy is a crank, just like the Swedish Mathematician who thinks that the value for Pi is wrong.

- and if you are trying to say that anybody in their right minds agrees with him, then your argument is a huge strawman.
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Reply #181 - Jan 7th, 2010 at 11:56am
 
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Reply #182 - Jan 8th, 2010 at 10:07am
 
Thanks Mozz and Muso. Hopefully be back a little more regularly this year. Hope you and all the forum members had a great Xmas. Our 19 month old had an absolutely grand time.
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Reply #183 - Jan 8th, 2010 at 6:51pm
 
Soren,

I'm not going to backpeddle. I'll stick by what I said. It's not up to me to defend people with extraordinary ideas.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #184 - Jan 9th, 2010 at 10:29pm
 
muso wrote on Jan 8th, 2010 at 6:51pm:
Soren,

I'm not going to backpeddle. I'll stick by what I said. It's not up to me to defend people with extraordinary ideas.



Alas, dear boy, that is precisely what you have been doing all along, defending people with extraordinary ideas.



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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #185 - Jan 11th, 2010 at 11:51am
 
Soren wrote on Jan 9th, 2010 at 10:29pm:
muso wrote on Jan 8th, 2010 at 6:51pm:
Soren,

I'm not going to backpeddle. I'll stick by what I said. It's not up to me to defend people with extraordinary ideas.



Alas, dear boy, that is precisely what you have been doing all along, defending people with extraordinary ideas.



- and that is precisely what I'd expect to hear from somebody who has no concept of scientific reasoning and has been conned by the widespread astroturfing  that goes on in the blogosphere.

Those so-called extraordinary ideas have been demonstrated time and time again to be valid to a greater than 99% confidence level.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #186 - Jan 11th, 2010 at 3:06pm
 
muso wrote on Jan 11th, 2010 at 11:51am:
Soren wrote on Jan 9th, 2010 at 10:29pm:
muso wrote on Jan 8th, 2010 at 6:51pm:
Soren,

I'm not going to backpeddle. I'll stick by what I said. It's not up to me to defend people with extraordinary ideas.



Alas, dear boy, that is precisely what you have been doing all along, defending people with extraordinary ideas.



- and that is precisely what I'd expect to hear from somebody who has no concept of scientific reasoning and has been conned by the widespread astroturfing  that goes on in the blogosphere.

Those so-called extraordinary ideas have been demonstrated time and time again to be valid to a greater than 99% confidence level.



You are exaggerating outrageously.

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #187 - Jan 12th, 2010 at 2:16pm
 
Soren wrote on Jan 11th, 2010 at 3:06pm:
You are exaggerating outrageously.



Actually no. I'm just summarising the findings  of mainstream climate research.

What research are you summarising? Which papers can you point to that say that (and I quote soren) "AGM is crap". (I'm not talking about newspapers here.)

Papers from a certain Classics graduate who tells everybody that he's a member of the House of Lords  don't count. (He tried once, and received zero votes).  You can hire him as a clown for your next party. He charges $100,000 a shot. He's even coming to Australia. 

Petitions from dentists and medical doctors don't count either.  Without research they are basically just opinions. I know a person who is convinced that the Sun orbits the Earth, and nothing will persuade him differently. Do you believe that the Sun orbits the Earth, Soren?

(just checking)
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #188 - Jan 12th, 2010 at 2:33pm
 
Quote:
Do you believe that the Sun orbits the Earth?


What yo talkin bout willis?

How else would it keep going down on one side, and coming up on the other if it were not revolving around us?
It is only common sense, plus every boby knows that the earth came first , then the stars were put in the sky for us.
I can't believe that scienticians do not know this stuff, it is common sense you can see with your own two eyes.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #189 - Jan 12th, 2010 at 3:09pm
 
muso wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 at 2:16pm:
Soren wrote on Jan 11th, 2010 at 3:06pm:
You are exaggerating outrageously.



Actually no. I'm just summarising the findings  of mainstream climate research.

What research are you summarising? Which papers can you point to that say that (and I quote soren) "AGM is crap". (I'm not talking about newspapers here.)

Papers from a certain Classics graduate who tells everybody that he's a member of the House of Lords  don't count. (He tried once, and received zero votes).  You can hire him as a clown for your next party. He charges $100,000 a shot. He's even coming to Australia.  

Petitions from dentists and medical doctors don't count either.  Without research they are basically just opinions. I know a person who is convinced that the Sun orbits the Earth, and nothing will persuade him differently. Do you believe that the Sun orbits the Earth, Soren?

(just checking)




The beauty of this whole thing, for me but not for you, is that I have to prove nothing. You have to prove that AGW is real and that it is caused by CO2.

You are the 'accuser', the onus of proof is solely on you. It has become increasingly clear in recent years and around the world that the task of proving it is too big. If you believe in it, this is upsetting, I can see that. But being upset is no proof of anything. Even if some partisant of AGW resort to Leninist tactics, verbal and actual.

Some sceptic or other had to have police escort to a talk in Houston recently. The 'believers' rioted in Copenhagen.

If the Leninist/Stalinist reference is foggy for some, we can use the Mohammedan rage boy example. A lot of warmerists are Mohammedan rage boys at heart. Mozz, for exmple, is displaying distinct tendencies, even if he does not quite break through the veneer.







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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #190 - Jan 12th, 2010 at 4:09pm
 
That's it eh Soren? Move it away from science to religion.

If London is at the same latitude as Siberia how come it is much warmer?
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #191 - Jan 12th, 2010 at 7:21pm
 
Darwin wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 at 4:09pm:
That's it eh Soren? Move it away from science to religion.

If London is at the same latitude as Siberia how come it is much warmer?


How come indeed!! Brilliant!! Now all it takes is latitude. Latitude is fate!! Thanks. And the GS.

ANy other hobby horses?

ANd we have moved to religion, folks, be careful. I tell warmerists that they sound like angry rage boys - and I have shifted the discussion to religion.  Watch and learn, all ye simple village people. But wait!
I am stupid AND a cunning deceiver at the same time. I must be an ultra right wing oppressor of all that is good and noble.

But Mr Darwin is here so all is saved. Phew!! That was close.  Zzzzz....







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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #192 - Jan 12th, 2010 at 8:17pm
 
OK so Soren has no arguments left at all, hasn't considered any info and is now like a kid, fingers in ears "lalalalala I can't hear you lalalalalala"

Pathetic, Soren. Can't put aside prejudices to look at some facts, eh, its more important you don't change your mind.

It is NOT all to do with latitude, but there is a conundrum in that England, on same latitude as Siberia, is so much warmer. The answer to that question then has bearing on why England & NEurope are so cold right now.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #193 - Jan 12th, 2010 at 10:10pm
 
Darwin wrote on Jan 12th, 2010 at 8:17pm:
OK so Soren has no arguments left at all, hasn't considered any info and is now like a kid, fingers in ears "lalalalala I can't hear you lalalalalala"

Pathetic, Soren. Can't put aside prejudices to look at some facts, eh, its more important you don't change your mind.

It is NOT all to do with latitude, but there is a conundrum in that England, on same latitude as Siberia, is so much warmer. The answer to that question then has bearing on why England & NEurope are so cold right now.



Darwin, you have not provided one bit of argument, one bit of info. You go all mysterious and schoolmarmy about latitude and GS and old chool atlases. As if hint, hint, nudge, nudge was still an acceptable intellectual position. That's all your 'argument' and 'info: nudge nudge and lalalala.

I have asked you about the Thames freezing over. What was your response? Lemme see. I must have mistplaced it somewhere, I can't seem  to find it.

Banging on about London and Siberia and latitude just shows that you left school at the earliest opportunity.





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Reply #194 - Jan 13th, 2010 at 7:42am
 
No, my argument is there and supported by scientific papers. You are scared to do that bit of reading and thinking because it might upset your closed mind.

The Gulf stream of warm water flows North along the East coast of the US and Canada then down the coast of England. That warm current is what makes London so much more livable than Siberia (or Alaska.)

Now, that the Arctic ice and the Greenland Icesheets are meting is also an indisputable fact. As that meltwater flows into the North Atlantic it weakens that current and that means England/NEurope gets colder. One of the drivers of the Gulf Stream was supercooled water in the Arctic ocean sinking. this doesn't happen anymore.

Without the Gulf Stream England & Northern Europe would be a lot more like Siberia as they are finding out.

Now, go look at ABC website--deadly jelly fish are extending both their range and season as the Pacific warms. In five years they will be at the Sunshine Coast and then its bye bye tourism. Migratory birds in the N Hemisphere are settling at more and more northerly locations, and the global temperature is increasing in lock step with increasing CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #195 - Jan 13th, 2010 at 8:22am
 
Darwin. Just to clarify, there was one paper in 2005 (Bryden et al) that showed a 30% decline in the THC of the North Atlantic Drift. That was not generally well received due to the high level of error in the measurements, and subsequent work by Vage et al in 2008 showed no perceptible change in flow, but noted the absence or reduction of well defined convection chimneys. These chimneys are one of the factors that affects the flow rate of the North Atlantic Drift.

The recent extreme weather in Europe may result from a brief connection of the Gulf Stream with the West Greenland Current, but this is very new data and I'd tread very warily about making conclusions.

In summary, there are changes, but they are not well understood. The best we can say at this stage is that it could be an influence.

Regarding the geographical changes in ecosystems, you are spot on. The main problem is that the ecosystems are differentiating based on mobility of fauna. Benthic species, and seagrasses can only migrate slowly, and much depends on the nature of the seafloor.

Consequently prey and predators are being separated on the basis of mobility.

There is an increase in jellyfish populations in certain areas due to a combination of the warming effects and overfishing.  The same goes for crustaceans. Have you noticed that they are in pretty good supply of late?
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #196 - Jan 13th, 2010 at 9:03am
 
Denialists,  choose to say that because so many variables can influence weather, and climate, then it is just too hard to work out, so just forget about it, just hope nothing changes, and that humans stay lucky.

However, scientists (the reputable ones, not the cranks peddling recycled lies as opinion) do try to analyse and quantify various influences, and have been pretty successful to that end, so much so that we can make highly educated guesses, about what may happen under varying circumstances.

So, if you are really interested why the Thames froze over you could probably find out the "why" of the matter, by going to a reputable site that real scientists contribute to, and ask them, and they would explain how certain combinations of variables produce certain results.

Put simply, until we break through expected thresholds, or "tipping points", at which stage we could expect to see more extreme, and more bizzarre weather events, we will still continue to have the normal variability of weather that we have always experienced, with some very mild years, and some very severe years.
The simple fact is that these natural variations will be overlaid upon a changing, warmer, background, which continues to rise independent to these short term fluctuations.

Interestingly, the UK, even while being gripped by a particularly cold winter, still experienced an annual temperature of 0.6 degrees above it's long term average temperature.

So as far as the Thames freezing over, we can note it as occurring due to an extreme weather event, but I look forward to what is probably an even rarer, and more unlikely event, Denialists taking notice of real science instead of relying upon baseless opinions from disreputable sources.
I fear it will not be the Thames, but rather Hell, frozen over, before we witness that happening.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #197 - Jan 13th, 2010 at 4:19pm
 
Possum takes apart an Andrew Bolt stunt:

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2010/01/13/andrew-bolt-knowledge-weight-and-flagship-media/


Ummm I did some searching this time last year when some idiots were saying that the snow in London meant the world was cooling (No, it wasn't Soren Smiley ) and got a couple papers that mentioned a 6% IIRC decline in the Gulf Stream. Not going to try and find that post now!
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #198 - Jan 13th, 2010 at 7:56pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Jan 13th, 2010 at 9:03am:

However, scientists (the reputable ones, not the cranks peddling recycled lies as opinion) do try to analyse and quantify various influences, and have been pretty successful to that end, so much so that we can make highly educated guesses, about what may happen under varying circumstances.



Grin Grin Grin

That's gold, Jerry, gold. (h/t helian)   'So much so that we can make highly educated guesses'... That is a classic!!!

You are right, let's give 'em a coupla more billions so we can sit at their knees on cold/hot/mild/rainy/dry nights as they make more and more highly educated guesses. Worth every penny. Not only, but also... so much so.

Grin Grin

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #199 - Jan 14th, 2010 at 7:55am
 
Darwin wrote on Jan 13th, 2010 at 4:19pm:
Possum takes apart an Andrew Bolt stunt:

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2010/01/13/andrew-bolt-knowledge-weight-and-flagship-media/


Ummm I did some searching this time last year when some idiots were saying that the snow in London meant the world was cooling (No, it wasn't Soren Smiley ) and got a couple papers that mentioned a 6% IIRC decline in the Gulf Stream. Not going to try and find that post now!


6% would be extremely difficult to measure. The problem is that you have to take thousands of measurements over a huge geographical area, and the whole dynamics of the stream changes from month to month and year to year as vortex chimneys change location.

One of the main criticisms levelled against the Bryden paper was that the finding of a 30% reduction was very close to the systematic error level.  It would be interesting to see how anybody could justify a clear reading of 6% reduction.

It makes perfect sense that as more melt water enters the system, it should have the effect of slowing the Gulf Stream, but unlike the primary effects of Global Warming, it's notoriously difficult to monitor.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #200 - Jan 14th, 2010 at 7:59am
 
Soren wrote on Jan 13th, 2010 at 7:56pm:
mozzaok wrote on Jan 13th, 2010 at 9:03am:

However, scientists (the reputable ones, not the cranks peddling recycled lies as opinion) do try to analyse and quantify various influences, and have been pretty successful to that end, so much so that we can make highly educated guesses, about what may happen under varying circumstances.



Grin Grin Grin

That's gold, Jerry, gold. (t/t helian)   'So much so that we can make highly educated guesses'... That is a classic!!!

You are right, let's give 'em a coupla more billions so we can sit at their knees on cold/hot/mild/rainy/dry nights as they make more and more highly educated guesses. Worth every penny. Not only, but also... so much so.

Grin Grin




I'll leave the guesswork to you soren. My personal paradigm is to make measurements as accurately as possible and use that data to make the most accurate predictions possible.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #201 - Jan 14th, 2010 at 9:43am
 
muso wrote on Jan 14th, 2010 at 7:55am:
Darwin wrote on Jan 13th, 2010 at 4:19pm:
Possum takes apart an Andrew Bolt stunt:

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2010/01/13/andrew-bolt-knowledge-weight-and-flagship-media/


Ummm I did some searching this time last year when some idiots were saying that the snow in London meant the world was cooling (No, it wasn't Soren Smiley ) and got a couple papers that mentioned a 6% IIRC decline in the Gulf Stream. Not going to try and find that post now!


6% would be extremely difficult to measure. The problem is that you have to take thousands of measurements over a huge geographical area, and the whole dynamics of the stream changes from month to month and year to year as vortex chimneys change location.

One of the main criticisms levelled against the Bryden paper was that the finding of a 30% reduction was very close to the systematic error level.  It would be interesting to see how anybody could justify a clear reading of 6% reduction.

It makes perfect sense that as more melt water enters the system, it should have the effect of slowing the Gulf Stream, but unlike the primary effects of Global Warming, it's notoriously difficult to monitor.



The effects of something changing by 6 percent 'would be extremely difficult to measure', you say.

Yet the effects of something (CO2 levels in the atmosphere) changing from 0.0284 percent to 0.0560 percent are boldly declared to be beyond dispute.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #202 - Jan 14th, 2010 at 11:11am
 
Soren wrote on Jan 14th, 2010 at 9:43am:
The effects of something changing by 6 percent 'would be extremely difficult to measure', you say.

Yet the effects of something (CO2 levels in the atmosphere) changing from 0.0284 percent to 0.0560 percent are boldly declared to be beyond dispute.


Soren,  

Once again you are again demonstrating a gross ignorance of the concept of measurement precision and accuracy.

Give me strength (insert icon for tearing out tufts of hair)- you now seem to be implying that you can somehow apply the same level of precision to every single parameter in the known universe?

So for example you could measure the anal temperature of a rat with exactly the same precision as the Intelligence Quotient of Viscount Christopher Monckton. Even though the numbers would be very similar  
(using Fahrenheit degrees - I'll give him the benefit of the doubt), the basis for the determination of precision is totally different in each case.


You can measure the mass of a bunch of bananas quite precisely. You can measure the CO2 content of the atmosphere quite precisely (you use a bugger** Gas Chromatograph ffs), but when it comes to integrating a series of highly variable flows which vary according to season, then it's much more difficult to measure. The  precision level is extremely low.

Please get a clue.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #203 - Jan 14th, 2010 at 1:34pm
 
BS

The atmosphere and the oceans are both huge, non-homogenious, both with currents and local changes, massive unknowns and unknown ways of shifting and changing.

Your little sermon shows a very parochial sense of the world - as if the global measurement of atmospheric CO2 or oceanic changes were as simple as weighing bananas (the Queenslander in you?) or a rat's anal temperature (Sigmund, where does that one come from?).


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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #204 - Jan 14th, 2010 at 3:38pm
 
Soren wrote on Jan 14th, 2010 at 1:34pm:
BS

The atmosphere and the oceans are both huge, non-homogenious, both with currents and local changes, massive unknowns and unknown ways of shifting and changing.

Your little sermon shows a very parochial sense of the world - as if the global measurement of atmospheric CO2 or oceanic changes were as simple as weighing bananas (the Queenslander in you?) or a rat's anal temperature (Sigmund, where does that one come from?).



Note the sly change from measuring atmospheric CO2. It now comes bundled with oceanic changes. I was talking about measuring atmospheric CO2 content. That's the easy one. The difficult one is measuring the ocean flows. You need to focus.


OK. Do you think that there is a great deal of error in measuring the global CO2 content of the atmosphere?  Go on, I'll give you enough rope. Explain why.....

While you're at it, tell me just how much variation there is between Southern Hemisphere monitoring stations which conduct independent measurements of CO2 concentration. You should be capable of Googling that information.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #205 - Jan 14th, 2010 at 3:55pm
 
BOOO!!! Wakey wakey!




We were talking about margins of error in measuring effects, smartypants.

You said effects of 6% change is difficult to measure. I said that therefore the effects of 0.0284 % change must also be difficult.

The former change was in refernce to oceans, the latter the atmosphere. Theiy are things of much more comparable magnitude than one or the other againts your silly comparison with bananas or rats' arses.

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #206 - Jan 14th, 2010 at 4:18pm
 
Soren wrote on Jan 14th, 2010 at 9:43am:
The effects of something changing by 6 percent 'would be extremely difficult to measure', you say.

Yet the effects of something (CO2 levels in the atmosphere) changing from 0.0284 percent to 0.0560 percent are boldly declared to be beyond dispute.


You're not going to squirm out of that one Soren. That is what you said above.  You're comparing one set of measurements with a totally unrelated set of measurement and you were implying that because a measurement of 6% in one was difficult, somehow this meant this fact had some bearing on a totally unrelated measurement. 

You're the one that's comparing apples and pears (or gas concentration to water flow) - not me.  
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #207 - Jan 14th, 2010 at 9:00pm
 
muso wrote on Jan 14th, 2010 at 4:18pm:
Soren wrote on Jan 14th, 2010 at 9:43am:
The effects of something changing by 6 percent 'would be extremely difficult to measure', you say.

Yet the effects of something (CO2 levels in the atmosphere) changing from 0.0284 percent to 0.0560 percent are boldly declared to be beyond dispute.


You're not going to squirm out of that one Soren. That is what you said above.    



BS. No squirming.

Notice the identical structure of the sentences.

Both are about  'the effects of something changing by n %'. Both are about the reliability of n as the measure of effect of change.

You declare n=6 as "extremely difficult" yet boldly go ahead, and in Mozz's words, are happy to make 'educated quesses' if n = 0.0284.

Secondly, the contexts - oceans and atmosphere - are not as wildly different in magnitude and complexity as your silly banana and rat examples. These new ones are as relevant as your earlier example about inhailing/imbibing poison directly. Only Mozz bought that one and he may well be the only one taken in by these ones.





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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #208 - Jan 14th, 2010 at 9:09pm
 
Muso, Mozz, Darwin and the rest of the crew hot for AGW - it occurs to me that warmerists like you have invested yourselves into the truth of AGW. To you, it is a personal matter. To doubt it is to question your entire outlook and self-esteem. I think that is why warmerists lapse into personal abuse, heckling and invective - for you doubting  AGW comes across as questioning you, personally, in your self-understanding.

For a sceptic like me, there is no self-esteem at stake, whether AGW turns out true or false.

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #209 - Jan 14th, 2010 at 10:27pm
 
Quote:
You declare n=6 as "extremely difficult" yet boldly go ahead, and in Mozz's words, are happy to make 'educated quesses' if n = 0.0284.


This is very good point Soren.

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #210 - Jan 15th, 2010 at 8:29am
 
Soren wrote on Jan 14th, 2010 at 9:00pm:
Both are about  'the effects of something changing by n %'. Both are about the reliability of n as the measure of effect of change.

You declare n=6 as "extremely difficult" yet boldly go ahead, and in Mozz's words, are happy to make 'educated quesses' if n = 0.0284.



The point is that it's x=6 and y= 0.0384 or whatever.

Quote:
Secondly, the contexts - oceans and atmosphere - are not as wildly different in magnitude and complexity as your silly banana and rat examples. These new ones are as relevant as your earlier example about inhailing/imbibing poison directly. Only Mozz bought that one and he may well be the only one taken in by these ones.



If you can't grasp this simple point then there is no point trying to convince you of anything more complex. This argument is not even related to global warming. It's related to the precision of two totally different measurements that are chalk and cheese.

In the first case, the factors that determine the precision are the calbration of the  flow meters, the accuracy of determination of the position of the ship, the extent to which the dynamics of oceanic flow change over the measurement period and so on... In short, it's a difficult measurement.

In the second case, the factors that determine the accuracy are the  accuracy of the calibration standards, the accuracy of the GC and lack of contamination of the sample and the extent to which it is representative. Carbon dioxide mixing in the atmosphere is relatively fast, and there is very little difference, even in readings between stations situated in different hemispheres. Currently the atmospheric CO2 at Mauna Loa is 387ppm. Seasonally corrected, it's 388ppm. The Global Mean is also 388ppm. At the South Pole, it's 388ppm, at Christmas Island, it's just over 387ppm, at Baring Head NZ, it's also 387ppm. These are independent measurements and they are relatively easy to conduct.  I have not used a Gas Chromatograph for at least 15 years, but I am quite confident that I could take a representative air sample, go to our lab and test a sample using a GC, and get a result to within 1% at least.

The two measurements are like chalk and cheese. If you make a statement on the precision and accuracy of one method, it has absolutely no bearing on the other. It astounds me that you think differently.

The comparative example of rat rectal temperature determination and IQ determination are also chalk and cheese. The first one is easy. The second one depends on the degree to which his self styled Lordship has self medicated using single malt.

You simply cannot deduce something about accuracy and precision of one method from an entirely unrelated one.

OK. You have embarrassed yourself enough. Please know where to quit.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #211 - Jan 15th, 2010 at 9:52am
 
muso wrote on Jan 15th, 2010 at 8:29am:
The two measurements are like chalk and cheese. If you make a statement on the precision and accuracy of one method, it has absolutely no bearing on the other. It astounds me that you think differently.

...

OK. You have embarrassed yourself enough. Please know where to quit.




For the third time, slowly, sound it out:  'the effects of something changing by n %'.

The effect. The influence. The impact.

We are NOT talking about the difficulty of measuring n. We are talking about the 'the effects of something changing by n %'.

Not n. The effect of change by n.



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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #212 - Jan 15th, 2010 at 11:32am
 
Soren wrote on Jan 15th, 2010 at 9:52am:
muso wrote on Jan 15th, 2010 at 8:29am:
The two measurements are like chalk and cheese. If you make a statement on the precision and accuracy of one method, it has absolutely no bearing on the other. It astounds me that you think differently.

...

OK. You have embarrassed yourself enough. Please know where to quit.




For the third time, slowly, sound it out:  'the effects of something changing by n %'.

The effect. The influence. The impact.

We are NOT talking about the difficulty of measuring n. We are talking about the 'the effects of something changing by n %'.

Not n. The effect of change by n.





I wasn't even talking about the 'effects' of something changing, I was talking about difficulty in measurement of the change in a certain flow rate.

Besides that, your argument still doesn't make sense.  The effects of some things are more difficult to determine than others, and the accuracy of such predictions depend entirely on the unique set of factors that underlie each issue. 

A slowing of the Gulf stream will almost certainly result in a reduction of heat transfer, resulting in more severe winters in North West Europe, Iceland etc. To link the current extreme weather in Europe to that factor alone is quite a tenuous link, especially since there is one other explanation coming to the fore, connected with the West Greenland flow.

It's difficult enough to determine that there has been a 6 percent reduction, let alone the effects of such a reduction.

On the other hand, the effects of a doubling of Greenhouse Gases is probably one of the most studied aspect ever, in recent years.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #213 - Jan 15th, 2010 at 11:49am
 
muso wrote on Jan 15th, 2010 at 11:32am:
It's difficult enough to determine that there has been a 6 percent reduction, let alone the effects of such a reduction.

On the other hand, the effects of a doubling of Greenhouse Gases is probably one of the most studied aspect ever, in recent years.  



I like that quick-step: 6% versus doubling. Why not say 6% versus 0.0384%?

And we have been talking about effects of change all along, Muso. The whole bloody AGW hullabaloo is about the effects of change. Darwin's point about the GS is about the effects of change.



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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #214 - Jan 15th, 2010 at 12:00pm
 
Soren wrote on Jan 15th, 2010 at 11:49am:
I like that quick-step: 6% versus doubling. Why not say 6% versus 0.0384%?



The 6% is a change in ocean flow. I don't know where you plucked  0.0384% from, but it's certainly not a percentage change in anything that I know of. The percentage change in atmospheric CO2 in the last 100 years has been more like 30%.   

Are you comparing percentage change in ocean flow with absolute concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere expressed as a percentage?

Now that's just plain weird.  You should be careful where you get your 'facts' from.

Would you like a shovel, or have you dug yourself into a big enough hole already?
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Reply #215 - Jan 15th, 2010 at 2:12pm
 
The current 384 ppm is 0.0384%. By doubling that, you add 0.0384%.


We are talking about the effects of change of various proportions.

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Reply #216 - Jan 16th, 2010 at 8:26am
 
by doubling it you add 100% of the total. The Gulf stream flow was reported to have changed by 30%, then 6%.

Your argument is fallacious.
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Reply #217 - Jan 25th, 2010 at 8:21pm
 
muso wrote on Jan 16th, 2010 at 8:26am:
by doubling it you add 100% of the total. The Gulf stream flow was reported to have changed by 30%, then 6%.

Your argument is fallacious.



You must be really motivated by ideology to persist that a change of 6 (or 30) percent in the Gulf Stream is the same magnitude as a change from 0.0384 to 0.0560 percent of atmospheric CO2.

It is like saying that giving 5 cents to a kid who already has 5 cents 'doubles his wealth'. At this rate, who knows where it'll end? This is the way to wealth, and never mind that  guy with x million dollars to his name is getting a 6 % raise. that's nothing. That only gives him another, what? $10,000 plus. Pittance. Watch the kid, he's getting dangerously rich, doubling his money every 200 years.

No, wait! Every, er, what was it again? It keeps changing. Anyways, that kid's a menace.



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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #218 - Jan 25th, 2010 at 11:15pm
 
Soren wrote on Jan 25th, 2010 at 8:21pm:
You must be really motivated by ideology to peresist that a change of 6 (or 30) percent in the Gulf Stream is the same magnitude as a change from 0.0384 to 0.0560 percent of atmospheric CO2.



You must be either totally confused or very 'drunk' (I'll be charitable here) if you think I'm saying that. What are you saying here? That I think 6% is the same as 30% is the same as 100% ?

- and why do your figures keep changing anyway?

You are the one that has been trying to compare apples with pears.

I advised you to quit while you were ahead. Now you're wondering why I persist in saying things that I never even said in the first place.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #219 - Jan 25th, 2010 at 11:28pm
 
I think Soren has explained where your ability to discount logic in favour of your ideology has come unstuck and you aredoing your best to obfuscate.

This is just to let you know that other readers recognize your ducking and weaving for what it is
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Reply #220 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 10:13am
 
Well your arguments impressed Marvel, Soren, that speaks volumes in itself, lmao.

Maybe you could form a "society"?
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #221 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 10:45am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 10:13am:
Well your arguments impressed Marvel, Soren, that speaks volumes in itself, lmao.

Maybe you could form a "society"?



You may call me Viscount Soren...



Wink
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Reply #222 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 10:47am
 
lol, happy australia day marlboro stuyvesant viscount. Smiley
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Reply #223 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 10:50am
 
Yes, all the best. I'm off to count my blessings..


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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #224 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 1:21pm
 
Soren wrote on Jan 25th, 2010 at 8:21pm:
It is like saying that giving 5 cents to a kid who already has 5 cents 'doubles his wealth'. At this rate, who knows where it'll end? This is the way to wealth, and never mind that  guy with x million dollars to his name is getting a 6 % raise. that's nothing. That only gives him another, what? $10,000 plus. Pittance. Watch the kid, he's getting dangerously rich, doubling his money every 200 years.




In that example, you're comparing money to money. It's clear cut.

When you start comparing ocean flow rate to atmospheric CO2 concentration, that's where you become Viscount of Cloud Cuckoo land.

The two parameters are entirely unrelated.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #225 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 1:22pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 10:47am:
lol, happy australia day marlboro stuyvesant viscount. Smiley


Are you trying to say that soren is producing a smokescreen?
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #226 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 4:11pm
 
Sunny_beach_babe wrote on Jan 25th, 2010 at 11:28pm:
I think Soren has explained where your ability to discount logic in favour of your ideology has come unstuck and you aredoing your best to obfuscate.



That's a big word.  Wink
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #227 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 7:16pm
 
muso wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 1:21pm:
Soren wrote on Jan 25th, 2010 at 8:21pm:
It is like saying that giving 5 cents to a kid who already has 5 cents 'doubles his wealth'. At this rate, who knows where it'll end? This is the way to wealth, and never mind that  guy with x million dollars to his name is getting a 6 % raise. that's nothing. That only gives him another, what? $10,000 plus. Pittance. Watch the kid, he's getting dangerously rich, doubling his money every 200 years.




In that example, you're comparing money to money. It's clear cut.

When you start comparing ocean flow rate to atmospheric CO2 concentration, that's where you become Viscount of Cloud Cuckoo land.

The two parameters are entirely unrelated.



Rates of change, dear boy, rates of change, and their respective effects.





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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #228 - Jan 27th, 2010 at 8:30am
 
Soren wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 7:16pm:
muso wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 1:21pm:
Soren wrote on Jan 25th, 2010 at 8:21pm:
It is like saying that giving 5 cents to a kid who already has 5 cents 'doubles his wealth'. At this rate, who knows where it'll end? This is the way to wealth, and never mind that  guy with x million dollars to his name is getting a 6 % raise. that's nothing. That only gives him another, what? $10,000 plus. Pittance. Watch the kid, he's getting dangerously rich, doubling his money every 200 years.




In that example, you're comparing money to money. It's clear cut.

When you start comparing ocean flow rate to atmospheric CO2 concentration, that's where you become Viscount of Cloud Cuckoo land.

The two parameters are entirely unrelated.



Rates of change, dear boy, rates of change, and their respective effects.



OK, let's say that you meant that you were trying to compare rate of change of ocean flow and rate of change of atmospheric CO2 and their respective effects.

First of all, if you can't measure the parameter with any degree of precision, then it follows that you are not going to be able to measure the rate of rate of change very accurately. What that effectively means  is that you're really not going to be able to demonstrate an effect.

To demonstrate an effect, you need to have a direct causal relationship and a confirmation of that, in the way of data. If your data is suspect, the confirmation is suspect.

You seem to be blissfully unaware of the above logical consequences, so if that sounded like a verbose explanation, it was.  Grin

Consequently, one of the main determining factors in confirming an effect (or even a change in a parameter) is the measurement precision of the parameter in the first place.  

As I have pointed out in previous posts, when it comes to getting an accurate determination of atmospheric CO2, it's relatively easy.  It mixes quickly. It's easy to get a representative sample. The analysis is routine, and this is confirmed by numerous independent results from all around the world.  The science behind the fact that CO2 absorbs Infrared radiation from the Earth is similarly robust. We can even measure the extent of the effect from satellite data taken between certain time intervals.

The greatest uncertainty is that of climate sensitivity - the extent to which atmospheric moisture and other feedbacks amplify the warming due to CO2. However a great deal of work has been done and the majority of research indicates a climate sensitivity of 3 (degrees per doubling of CO2)

On the other hand, when it comes down to measurements of ocean flows, the single measurements are easy enough, but to get an idea of the total flow is a lot more complex and is subject to much more uncertainty. Consequently the measurement of rate of change and the attribution of effects is a lot more fuzzy.  The effect of the Gulf stream slowing is less well understood, because there are all kinds of other effects, such as the changes in the Greenland current which may change the total picture.

Some things are more easily measured than others.

Chalk and Cheese.

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #229 - Jan 27th, 2010 at 9:23am
 
Sunny_beach_babe wrote on Jan 25th, 2010 at 11:28pm:
I think Soren has explained where your ability to discount logic in favour of your ideology has come unstuck and you aredoing your best to obfuscate.

This is just to let you know that other readers recognize your ducking and weaving for what it is


Please supply your definition of "logic" and "Marvel". Cheesy
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #230 - Jan 27th, 2010 at 12:11pm
 
muso wrote on Jan 27th, 2010 at 8:30am:
To demonstrate an effect, you need to have a direct causal relationship and a confirmation of that, in the way of data. If your data is suspect, the confirmation is suspect.





That is, in a nuthell, the case against AGW.


ABout our current dispute:
Darwin, a warmerist, was giving me the 'nudge-nudge,  wink-wink, know what I mean'  about the Gulf Stream and balmy/freezing weather in England as somehow another ace against sceptic. he mentioned something about a rate of something or other being 6 %. To his boosterist mind that was in the general neighbourhood of proof. You gently shot him down indicating the uncertainty of atributing causality to a change at rate of 6 percent in the GS.

At this point I said that if a rate of change of 6 % in oceanic flows is not conclusive (it isn't), then a rate of change in atmospheric CO2 from 0.0280% to 0.0560% can hardly be accepted as conclusive demosntration of causality between that CO2 change and climate change (never mind for now that not all that change is antropogenuic CO2)


Re parameters : apparently there is no evidence for CO2 causing past climate changes. It seems that increased CO2 levels followed, rather than caused, rises in temperature. Human or other CO2 now causing global warming is a theory without historical precedence.

This is hardly surprising. Even doubling CO2 will not make it anything but a trace gas (still only 0.0560%). Relative to other greenhouse gases, it will still be a small player, regardless of the forcings and amplification which would have been active in the past as well. Yet, there is no past evidence of CO2 causing warming.



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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #231 - Jan 27th, 2010 at 3:35pm
 
Soren wrote on Jan 27th, 2010 at 12:11pm:
That is, in a nuthell, the case against AGW.


ABout our current dispute:
Darwin, a warmerist, was giving me the 'nudge-nudge,  wink-wink, know what I mean'  about the Gulf Stream and balmy/freezing weather in England as somehow another ace against sceptic. he mentioned something about a rate of something or other being 6 %. To his boosterist mind that was in the general neighbourhood of proof. You gently shot him down indicating the uncertainty of atributing causality to a change at rate of 6 percent in the GS.


Not quite. I just gave a short discussion of the papers presented, which showed that even a 30% change was close to the uncertainty of measurement.

It's not the figure of 6% or 30% that's significant, it's whether or not we can tell if that figure is reliable or not, and that comes down to the  precision of the measurement. Intuitively, it would make sense that a 30% change in the flow rate of the GS  should have a significant effect in the weather in NW Europe, however if we are not capable of measuring it with any degree of confidence, we can't draw any such conclusion. The jury is still out on it.  The most we can say is that it's 'quite possible'.


Quote:
At this point I said that if a rate of change of 6 % in oceanic flows is not conclusive (it isn't), then....


I know what you said, but for a start, you're simplifying what I meant. I meant that a change of 30% is really not quantifiable using the techniques in the original paper. So it wouldn't matter whether it was 6% or 30% - you might as well say x percent, where we don't really know what that value is.  

Quote:
...a rate of change in atmospheric CO2 from 0.0280% to 0.0560% can hardly be accepted as conclusive demosntration of causality between that CO2 change and climate change (never mind for now that not all that change is antropogenuic CO2


There are several things that add up to a causal relationship. One is the basic underlying physics, the second is the accuracy with which we can determine the rise in CO2 level (very accurate) and the third is the confirmation in terms of measurements - the decreasing Long wave radiation as measured from orbit which demonstrates that more and more heat energy is being retained by the Earth's atmosphere. This is an effect called teh greenhouse effect, which is well understood.  

Quote:
Re parameters : apparently there is no evidence for CO2 causing past climate changes. It seems that increased CO2 levels followed, rather than caused, rises in temperature.


Once again soren, nobody is claiming that it's all one way**  Heat the oceans and you release some CO2, cool the oceans and you absorb more CO2. It's a two-way relationship. The difference between the pre-industrial past and the present day is that there was nobody adding CO2 to the atmosphere at that time, and there were a lot more buffers, such as rainforests, that acted as a sink.  

Quote:
Human or other CO2 now causing global warming is a theory without historical precedence.


Incorrect. The Milankovich orbital changes in the Earth's orbit could not account for all the temperature changes during the ice ages and interglacials. The greenhouse gases (mainly CO2 and water) contributed to the effect and in fact dominated the effect.

It is correct to say that CO2 did not trigger the warmings in the last million years or so,  but it definitely contributed to them. In fact it can be shown that  greenhouse gas forcing was the dominant factor in the magnitude of the ultimate changes during these periods.
 
Quote:
This is hardly surprising. Even doubling CO2 will not make it anything but a trace gas (still only 0.0560%). Relative to other greenhouse gases, it will still be a small player, regardless of the forcings and amplification which would have been active in the past as well. Yet, there is no past evidence of CO2 causing warming.


Again, you're ignoring the fact that different gases absorb IR radiation to different extents.  Where it matters, water vapour and CO2 both absorb and re-emit IR radiation and contribute to the greenhouse effect in a quantifiable way.

You don't dispute that the Earth has a greenhouse effect - do you? That's what keeps the Earth at a much higher temperature than what it would be otherwise. That greenhouse effect is caused by well-known greenhouse gases.

** This very tired argument of "CO2 doesn't lead, it lags" is a classic strawman. It's a bit like saying that I have proof that men don't cause marriage, because I have proof that some women (probably most) actually lead men into marriage.

First you take a false statement. I'll emphasise it to make it clear.


All climatologists believe that men lead women into marriage.

Then I provide data to knock that hypothesis down in flames.
My sister plotted with her girlfriends to get her fiance to marry her


Therefore all climatologists are wrong!!!!


In fact, marriage is a two-way relationship, just like CO2 and temperature.  

As the French say "L'homme propose, et femme dispose"



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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #232 - Jan 27th, 2010 at 4:53pm
 
muso wrote on Jan 27th, 2010 at 3:35pm:
** This very tired argument of "CO2 doesn't lead, it lags" is a classic strawman. It's a bit like saying that I have proof that men don't cause marriage, because I have proof that some women (probably most) actually lead men into marriage.

First you take a false statement. I'll emphasise it to make it clear.


All climatologists believe that men lead women into marriage.

Then I provide data to knock that hypothesis down in flames.
My sister plotted with her girlfriends to get her fiance to marry her


Therefore all climatologists are wrong!!!!


In fact, marriage is a two-way relationship, just like CO2 and temperature.  

As the French say "L'homme propose, et femme dispose"



You went pretty well up this point. But at this point you once again lapsed into banana weighing and rats' anal temperature measurement territory.

Causality is not a two way street. You may be tired of hearing it but it is actually the way of the world. Lighning does not cause the storm. Beanz may mean fartz but fartz do not necessarily mean beanz.


Greenhouse gases: water vapour makes up the vast bulk of greenhouse gases. By far.  Its effect is so immediate that you can actually feel it.



Is the Earth warmer now than at any time in its history?







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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #233 - Jan 28th, 2010 at 9:16am
 
Soren wrote on Jan 27th, 2010 at 4:53pm:
You went pretty well up this point.


Good. I'm glad that at least some of my explanation is not falling on deaf ears.

Quote:
Causality is not a two way street. You may be tired of hearing it but it is actually the way of the world. Lighning does not cause the storm. Beanz may mean fartz but fartz do not necessarily mean beanz.


Have you ever heard of Le Chatelier's Principle? It's more commonly applied to chemical reactions, but in many real-life situations, reactions and effects are reversible. The Global Temperature / atmospheric CO2  relationship is such an equilibrium situation.  Increase the CO2, the temperature rises, but increase the temperature (for example by increases in solar irradiance, and CO2 is released from the Oceans, increasing the atmospheric concentration.

In geological history there have been occasions where sharp rises in temperature were initiated and driven by large spikes in greenhouse gases, similar to the fossil fuel emissions spike of today. The Paleocene Eocene Thermal Maximum (PETM) is an example.

Roughly 55 million years ago, ocean pH levels dropped drastically and global temperatures rapidly rose over 5 degrees. The resolution of available proxy records indicates that this occurred in a period of time no longer than 5000 years. It's not possible to know if it happened even faster. It could have. The likely cause was massive releases of methane from the ocean floors, perhaps due to some smaller warming or changes in sea level. It took over 100,000 years for the ocean, atmosphere, and temperatures to return to their previous state. The result was a mass extinction event that took millions of years to recover from.

Another example was the massive volcanic eruption of the Deccan traps around the end of the Cretaceous Period (around 65 billion years ago).  This was a basaltic eruption of massive proportions (a sizeable part of India). It released vast quantities of CO2, but no significant levels of particulates or SO2. Basaltic eruptions tend to be much less violent than Acid volcanoes (eg Mt Pinatubo). The lava is much more liquid and there is no pressure build up and subsequent explosion,
as is (edited to clarify)
associated with the latter.

That the Deccan traps substantially changed atmospheric composition and drastically altered the climate is well established. That it caused the extinction of the dinosaurs is less clear.  


Quote:
Greenhouse gases: water vapour makes up the vast bulk of greenhouse gases. By far.  Its effect is so immediate that you can actually feel it.


True, but all you need is a cold night for the water to drop out of the atmosphere. That doesn't happen with CO2, and the warming effect from extra CO2 goes on to increase average atmospheric water content.  


Quote:
Is the Earth warmer now than at any time in its history?


I think I already answered that already in talking about the Deccan traps and the PETM. It's not really a useful question. What is more to the point is the well established causal relationship between CO2 and warming today. We know that we are increasing the atmospheric CO2 concentration. We can measure it very accurately and determine its source by analysis of its isotopes, and we can determine how much warming it causes and how much this effect is amplified by water and other feedbacks - all by closely monitoring the Earth.

There have been other effects in past prehistory that have had as marked an effect on the Earth as the current fossil fuel burning spike, but pondering the matter, I think we'd know if we had a massive traps type eruption somewhere on Earth,  or some other cataclysmic event such as the type that have caused such warming events in the past.

These past events had entirely different causes.

When it comes to Anthropogenic Global Warming, we have caught Colonel Mustard in the drawing room plunging a knife into the heart of Sweet Fanny Adams. It's pretty conclusive. Just because there have been other murders in the past in the same village by another villain (sic) doesn't mean that he was the one who did the dastardly deed this time around.

Can't you see the lack of logic in your argument? - There have been past historical warmings, so AGM is crap? Same principle as Colonel Mustard. Colonel Mustard is guilty as hell and he can't worm out of it this time around. It's an inevitable conclusion.  
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #234 - Jan 28th, 2010 at 4:09pm
 
Well using the dinosaurs as an example, we know that we have alternate theories that , like denialism, claim to have widespread support from a whole range of scientists, and a large proportion of the population.
They go like this.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #235 - Jan 28th, 2010 at 8:19pm
 
muso wrote on Jan 28th, 2010 at 9:16am:
These past events had entirely different causes.




So for eons the climate changed for entirely different reasons. We come on the scene and in 30 years we set in motion catastrophic changes never seen before - by increasing CO2 from 0.0280% to 0.0380 % - and not even all of that increase is due to us. And all that simply because a third of the popultion lives in evil conumer societies instead of freezing thir arses off in winter and getting by on pedalling a richshaw for 23 and a half hours a day.


Quote:
When it comes to Anthropogenic Global Warming, we have caught Colonel Mustard in the drawing room plunging a knife into the heart of Sweet Fanny Adams. It's pretty conclusive. Just because there have been other murders in the past in the same village by another villain (sic) doesn't mean that he was the one who did the dastardly deed this time around.

Can't you see the lack of logic in your argument? - There have been past historical warmings, so AGM is crap? Same principle as Colonel Mustard. Colonel Mustard is guilty as hell and he can't worm out of it this time around. It's an inevitable conclusion.  



Where do you get these completely inane, off-the-wall, absolutely irrelevant yet menacing analogies? Are you sublimating honey turnover and lettuce deprivation?...

Wink Wink Wink
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #236 - Jan 29th, 2010 at 5:49am
 
I will keep reading with a mixture of dismay, amazement, and amusement, the wild and disparate range of denialist guff, and deride it wherever, and whenever, it crosses the bounds of real skepticism, and goes into mere propagation of debunked lies.

We have seen a pretty full on campaign from denialists, who almost to a man are your typical, more extreme right wing types, who have turned denialism into a political mission to pursue, rather than what Global Warming shold be about, an environmental problem that needs to be addressed.

Skeptics can take some comfort in the fact that they honestly question, denialists do nothing honestly.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #237 - Jan 29th, 2010 at 7:55am
 
I had my suspicion who Marvel was, but now it's obvious. Don't bother posting any more here Marvel/DT/IQISNIL, because your posts will be deleted.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #238 - Jan 29th, 2010 at 8:16am
 
Soren wrote on Jan 28th, 2010 at 8:19pm:
So for eons the climate changed for entirely different reasons. We come on the scene and in 30 years we set in motion catastrophic changes never seen before - by increasing CO2 from 0.0280% to 0.0380 % - and not even all of that increase is due to us. And all that simply because a third of the popultion lives in evil conumer societies instead of freezing thir arses off in winter and getting by on pedalling a richshaw for 23 and a half hours a day.


Didn't I explain that these were exceptionally rare and cataclysmic events? You make it sound like it was just a part of routine life on Earth.

I have never been of the opinion that we should lower our standard of living, nor have I been of the opinion that the practice of burning fossil fuels was due to 'evil capitalism'. We just need to shift our energy base away from fossil fuels pretty urgently. There are viable alternatives, and it doesn't mean reducing our standard of living. In fact it means improving our standard of living, or at least that of  our future generations.    

Don't knock consumer societies. Again, you're putting up a straw man.  Once again, I'm not even a "Lefty". If anything I'm centre right.  I like capitalism, and I like being rich too (well...), and I don't want to give away  my money to the general unwashed undeserving either. Climate disruption just happens to be a problem that we all need to solve. It's not a leftish Groucho-Marxist plot or whatever.


Quote:
Where do you get these completely inane, off-the-wall, absolutely irrelevant yet menacing analogies? Are you sublimating honey turnover and lettuce deprivation?...

Wink Wink Wink


Thanks - I'm glad you appreciate my analogies, Soren, and by the way, I assure you that I'm not deprived of lettuce in any way. I even get offers of fresh lettuce right left and centre, which I politely decline. Thank you for your concerns, but that particular salad with Perinaise is not for public consumption.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #239 - Jan 29th, 2010 at 9:09am
 
muso wrote on Jan 29th, 2010 at 8:16am:
Soren wrote on Jan 28th, 2010 at 8:19pm:
So for eons the climate changed for entirely different reasons. We come on the scene and in 30 years we set in motion catastrophic changes never seen before - by increasing CO2 from 0.0280% to 0.0380 % - and not even all of that increase is due to us. And all that simply because a third of the popultion lives in evil conumer societies instead of freezing thir arses off in winter and getting by on pedalling a richshaw for 23 and a half hours a day.


Didn't I explain that these were exceptionally rare and cataclysmic events? You make it sound like it was just a part of routine life on Earth.

I have never been of the opinion that we should lower our standard of living, nor have I been of the opinion that the practice of burning fossil fuels was due to 'evil capitalism'. We just need to shift our energy base away from fossil fuels pretty urgently. There are viable alternatives, and it doesn't mean reducing our standard of living. In fact it means improving our standard of living, or at least that of  our future generations.    

Don't knock consumer societies. Again, you're putting up a straw man.  Once again, I'm not even a "Lefty". If anything I'm centre right.  I like capitalism, and I like being rich too (well...), and I don't want to give away  my money to the general unwashed undeserving either. Climate disruption just happens to be a problem that we all need to solve. It's not a leftish Groucho-Marxist plot or whatever.


Quote:
Where do you get these completely inane, off-the-wall, absolutely irrelevant yet menacing analogies? Are you sublimating honey turnover and lettuce deprivation?...

Wink Wink Wink


Thanks - I'm glad you appreciate my analogies, Soren, and by the way, I assure you that I'm not deprived of lettuce in any way. I even get offers of fresh lettuce right left and centre, which I politely decline. Thank you for your concerns, but that particular salad with Perinaise is not for public consumption.


Yes you did explain it. Many times in fact. But that's the dilemma of trying to explain in a genuine sensible fashion sophisticated ideas with Sophists who deliberately mislead and "misunderstand".  Roll Eyes The whole "comparing percetages of different things" (ocean flow/Co2 was hilarious...reminded me of wishy washy Christian Science confusionalism, lies that are just clever enough to sound valid to the uncritical thinker).

But at least each stupid point raised that recieves a sensible reply helps me understand things a little better. The boy is tenacious though. And each time I think to myself.."Surely, he can't be serious"
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #240 - Jan 29th, 2010 at 12:38pm
 
muso wrote on Jan 29th, 2010 at 8:16am:
Soren wrote on Jan 28th, 2010 at 8:19pm:
So for eons the climate changed for entirely different reasons. We come on the scene and in 30 years we set in motion catastrophic changes never seen before - by increasing CO2 from 0.0280% to 0.0380 % - and not even all of that increase is due to us. And all that simply because a third of the popultion lives in evil conumer societies instead of freezing thir arses off in winter and getting by on pedalling a richshaw for 23 and a half hours a day.


Didn't I explain that these were exceptionally rare and cataclysmic events? You make it sound like it was just a part of routine life on Earth.



Events or processes that change the global climate are by definition cataclysmic and rare. But even rare events add up to a handful over millions or billions of years (eons).
None of these past events or processes were even remotely induced, let alone caused by doubling of a trace gas from 0.0280 % to 0.560%. This is a new hypothesis with no gistorical precedence.
This fact alone does not render it untrue, only unproven.



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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #241 - Jan 29th, 2010 at 12:47pm
 
locutius wrote on Jan 29th, 2010 at 9:09am:
Yes you did explain it. Many times in fact. But that's the dilemma of trying to explain in a genuine sensible fashion sophisticated ideas with Sophists who deliberately mislead and "misunderstand".  Roll Eyes The whole "comparing percetages of different things" (ocean flow/Co2 was hilarious...reminded me of wishy washy Christian Science confusionalism, lies that are just clever enough to sound valid to the uncritical thinker).

But at least each stupid point raised that recieves a sensible reply helps me understand things a little better. The boy is tenacious though. And each time I think to myself.."Surely, he can't be serious"



Thank you for the vapid condescention. Like Abu's tireless work to highlight the dangers of Islamic politics, this kind of breezy, limp-wristed moan does more for climate scepticism than you realise.

Neither you nor Mozz have been able to say anything about this AGW discussion except relentlessly chip in to tell the world how miffed you are. Not sufficient for an argument, only enought to make people think 'I don't want to be like that.'

Muso, to his great credit, is not limited to merely posing and preening.


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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #242 - Jan 29th, 2010 at 2:39pm
 
Smiley Your welcome Soren.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #243 - Jan 29th, 2010 at 2:41pm
 
Soren wrote on Jan 29th, 2010 at 12:38pm:
None of these past events or processes were even remotely induced, let alone caused by doubling of a trace gas from 0.0280 % to 0.560%. This is a new hypothesis with no gistorical precedence.
This fact alone does not render it untrue, only unproven.



You just put your foot fairly and squarely in it again, Soren, and I'll explain why in a moment.  Let's take the PETM. It was caused by a build up of another Greenhouse gas - a methane release from sea floor clathrates. The evidence for this is to be found even today in vast areas of the sea bed that were ripped off by this release, particularly in the NW Atlantic and the North Sea just West of the Norwegian continental shelf.

A doubling of Carbon Dioxide from  250 to 500ppm will result in a 3 degree warming.

The Global Warming potential for methane (based on a 25 year horizon) is 25 times that of CO2 (7.6 times for a 500 year horizon). The logarithmic relationship with warming still holds.

Now methane gradually decomposes to carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, but it was a much much lower concentration of methane that caused the PETM warming, which increased temperatures to about 8-10 degrees warmer than today.

To illustrate this, the actual release of methane during that entire period was around 1500 to 2000 Gt. Compare that to about 8000 Gt of CO2 being released from fossil fuel combustion every year.

We're not talking about 0.0388 percent methane here, we're talking about an increase from 735ppbv to about 1600ppbv at the peak of the PETM. In percentage terms, which you prefer,  that's an increase from from 0.0000735 to 0.00016 % percent. So much for trace gases.

Your whole argument about trace gases just went out the window. A great deal of work on the PETM was carried out by workers from the Université Catholique de Louvain, Belgium, and this is corroborated by other studies.  

I have a nice pdf version from a poster session by Drs Fichefet, T and   Goosse, H which explains this better that I could, but it's in pdf format, and it's not available on the web. I'll try to convert it to jpg and attach it.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #244 - Jan 29th, 2010 at 2:44pm
 
lmao Soren

Quote:
Neither you nor Mozz have been able to say anything about this AGW discussion except relentlessly chip in to tell the world how miffed you are.


Perhaps if we paste some ridiculous denialist garbage you will be impressed?
Hold on, I will ring the potty peer and see what his latest offering is shall I?

Fortunately we have a sensible and reliable source for scientific rebuttal in muso, so my role is just to throw in the odd guffaw at the ridiculousness of the denialist arguments.
I mean you are still crapping on about "trace gas" as if CO2 can be lumped in with all other elements and just determine their relative effect as a percentage ratio equivalent to their concentration, what a disingenuous joke that is, for we know you are not a moron, just a maroon, for wedding yourself to denialism to the point where you will let it over ride your rationality.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #245 - Jan 29th, 2010 at 3:10pm
 
Here is part of the paper. It's difficult to get it below 250kb and keep it readable.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #246 - Jan 29th, 2010 at 9:57pm
 
Quote:
It's difficult to get it below 250kb and keep it readable.  



Indeed... Here it is (ahem) in a  straightforward manner...

http://www.ig.utexas.edu/outreach/polar/pepperoni/pdfdocs/gas%20hydrates%20clima...



Count the number of times the word 'simulated' occurs in the paper. 21. 'Model'? 61.


Whatever you are selling by this association, I am sure Mozz and Locutious will readily buy.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #247 - Jan 29th, 2010 at 11:24pm
 
Different paper, although the work is similar. The one I cited was from a poster session at an environmental conference I attended a few years ago.

So you don't accept that any models could possibly be accurate? - even though the atmospheric temperatures of the modelled response matched the proxies pretty well ? Note - no iterative approach - no multi variable hill climbing approach, just a straight run. 

In that case, I suggest that you never fly, because most of the work done on aircraft design is done using models with about the same level of sophistication.

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #248 - Jan 29th, 2010 at 11:53pm
 
muso wrote on Jan 29th, 2010 at 11:24pm:
I suggest that you never fly, because most of the work done on aircraft design is done using models with about the same level of sophistication.



... using models with about the same level of sophistication - and then empirically tested. Modeling is one important part of science. testing is another, indispensable one.

Models may be neccessary but they are not sufficient.




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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #249 - Jan 30th, 2010 at 3:08am
 
Testing?

Great idea Soren, your new career awaits.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #250 - Jan 30th, 2010 at 9:07am
 
Soren wrote on Jan 29th, 2010 at 11:53pm:
muso wrote on Jan 29th, 2010 at 11:24pm:
I suggest that you never fly, because most of the work done on aircraft design is done using models with about the same level of sophistication.



... using models with about the same level of sophistication - and then empirically tested. Modeling is one important part of science. testing is another, indispensable one.

Models may be neccessary but they are not sufficient.



What you fail to grasp is that models of past environments can be empirically and independently tested using proxy data of various types. You can't apply the same arguments that you do to models of future climate. You need to search in your bag of stale arguments for something else.

In fact climate models of future scenarios can also be confirmed by inputting past data to test how well they predict given a known set of starting conditions and outcomes. No iterative approach is used.

You can't predict which scenario will occur, but you can say with a very  high degree of certainty, that if you do this (scenario 1) then it will have this (outcome 1) outcome.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #251 - Jan 30th, 2010 at 9:13am
 
locutius wrote on Jan 29th, 2010 at 9:09am:
reminded me of wishy washy Christian Science confusionalism, lies that are just clever enough to sound valid to the uncritical thinker).


Exactly. Just substitute radiocarbon dating and other dating methods for climate models. They come up with an infinite set of arguments to say that models/ radiocarbon dating is just a crock.

It doesn't have to be scientifically based arguments either. It just needs to sound convincing. For example - that the nuclear detonations of the 20th century invalidates RCD, and the Earth is really 7000 years old.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #252 - Jan 30th, 2010 at 10:56am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jan 30th, 2010 at 3:08am:
Testing?

Great idea Soren, your new career awaits.



What?? The idea of empirically testing hypotheses catches you by surprise and makes you sneer, as if it was some far-out wacko notion?
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #253 - Jan 30th, 2010 at 11:00am
 
muso wrote on Jan 30th, 2010 at 9:07am:
Soren wrote on Jan 29th, 2010 at 11:53pm:
muso wrote on Jan 29th, 2010 at 11:24pm:
I suggest that you never fly, because most of the work done on aircraft design is done using models with about the same level of sophistication.



... using models with about the same level of sophistication - and then empirically tested. Modeling is one important part of science. testing is another, indispensable one.

Models may be neccessary but they are not sufficient.



What you fail to grasp is that models of past environments can be empirically and independently tested using proxy data of various types. You can't apply the same arguments that you do to models of future climate. You need to search in your bag of stale arguments for something else.

In fact climate models of future scenarios can also be confirmed by inputting past data to test how well they predict given a known set of starting conditions and outcomes. No iterative approach is used.

You can't predict which scenario will occur, but you can say with a very  high degree of certainty, that if you do this (scenario 1) then it will have this (outcome 1) outcome.



Who said this?

"There is a fundamental uncertainty about climate change prediction that can't be changed...Certain unqualified statements have been unfortunate. We have a problem in communicating uncertainty. There's definitely an issue there. If there wasn't, there wouldn't be the level of scepticism. All of these predictions have to be caveated by saying, `There's a level of uncertainty about that'."

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #254 - Jan 30th, 2010 at 11:54am
 
John Beddington, but regardless of whether the Himalyan glaciers melt by 2035 or 2053, South East Asian is in for a rough trot in the area of water supply.

Well hello? Nobody has said that the problem has gone away! It's just that the year 2035 was an overestimation.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #255 - Jan 30th, 2010 at 12:30pm
 
muso wrote on Jan 30th, 2010 at 11:54am:
John Beddington, but regardless of whether the Himalyan glaciers melt by 2035 or 2053, South East Asian is in for a rough trot in the area of water supply.

Well hello? Nobody has said that the problem has gone away! It's just that the year 2035 was an overestimation.



An overestimation in an interview which was subsequently picked up and eagerly pressed into service because it fitted the political agenda to 'influence' governments.

You can't make people panic if you are all cautios, empirical and disinterested like -  whaddaya call 'em? - scientists.

Add zing - lose credibility, "it's as simple as that" as you like to say. Beddington is waking up. He and the rest have slept in til mid-afternoon, as it were, but a least they are now stirring.





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Reply #256 - Jan 30th, 2010 at 3:34pm
 
It's in nobody's best interest to overstate the issue. We basically need as many facts as possible in order to address this issue.

Beddington is not the only one to be worried about the false or overstated information that's getting out, particularly from overzealous journalists. It's almost as bad to overstate as it is to play down the crisis.

That doesn't mean that we can relax. Just because the Himalayas glaciers won't melt until 2050 doesn't mean that the whole crisis is over. It's just a question of getting the most accurate information possible. 

- and if there is any waking up to do, it's waking up to the fact that the crisis of climate disruption is still on.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #257 - Jan 30th, 2010 at 8:48pm
 
Soren wrote on Jan 30th, 2010 at 10:56am:
mozzaok wrote on Jan 30th, 2010 at 3:08am:
Testing?

Great idea Soren, your new career awaits.



What?? The idea of empirically testing hypotheses catches you by surprise and makes you sneer, as if it was some far-out wacko notion?


Not at all Soren, I think it is a great idea.
Now if you can get the requests through to the great almighty to send through the empirical data from the identical, (except for each possible contributing factor, and combination thereof) parallell universes, we can see the results of empirical testing.
If you can post the results from the parallell universe where you still listen to reason, then that would be entertaining as well.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #258 - Feb 5th, 2010 at 7:33am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jan 30th, 2010 at 8:48pm:
Soren wrote on Jan 30th, 2010 at 10:56am:
mozzaok wrote on Jan 30th, 2010 at 3:08am:
Testing?

Great idea Soren, your new career awaits.



What?? The idea of empirically testing hypotheses catches you by surprise and makes you sneer, as if it was some far-out wacko notion?


Not at all Soren, I think it is a great idea.
Now if you can get the requests through to the great almighty to send through the empirical data from the identical, (except for each possible contributing factor, and combination thereof) parallell universes, we can see the results of empirical testing.
If you can post the results from the parallell universe where you still listen to reason, then that would be entertaining as well.



That's right. AGW is a non-testable hypothesis. Strictly speaking, that makes it only a partially scientific case. The science is not settled, and even by your reckoning cannot be settled, because exprimemental verification or falsification is not possible.

SO consensus has to be built on a different grounds. But most opf those grounds have been destroyed by the crazy, baseless  alarmists overshouting and over-reaching.




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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #259 - Feb 7th, 2010 at 5:01pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 5th, 2010 at 7:33am:
That's right. AGW is a non-testable hypothesis. Strictly speaking, that makes it only a partially scientific case. The science is not settled, and even by your reckoning cannot be settled, because exprimemental verification or falsification is not possible.

SO consensus has to be built on a different grounds. But most opf those grounds have been destroyed by the crazy, baseless  alarmists overshouting and over-reaching.



I've made the case for this before, but there are a number of ways in which the hypothesis has already been verified. You, for some reason choose to ignore these.

The decreasing temperature trend in the lower stratosphere, and the measured decrease in long wave radiation from the Earth as measured from space provide abundant evidence.  If stratospheric temperatures were rising, it would falsify the hypothesis. If Long Wave radiation were actually increasing with time, it would falsify the hypothesis.

Of course they support the hypothesis.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #260 - Feb 7th, 2010 at 8:44pm
 
All your readings and references are to change in - what is it? - climate, warming, justice, whatever. There is change. There is time, there is change. No biggie, as adolescents say.

What is not established is that these changes are due to human activity.

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #261 - Feb 8th, 2010 at 3:58pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 7th, 2010 at 8:44pm:
What is not established is that these changes are due to human activity.



Sigh. It is actually and I've explained it before ad nauseum. Please continue to live in denial though.
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Reply #262 - Feb 8th, 2010 at 5:43pm
 
muso wrote on Feb 8th, 2010 at 3:58pm:
Soren wrote on Feb 7th, 2010 at 8:44pm:
What is not established is that these changes are due to human activity.



Sigh. It is actually and I've explained it before ad nauseum.



That's the, er, 'science is settled' bit, isn't it?
Grin

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Reply #263 - Feb 8th, 2010 at 9:03pm
 
Quote:
Have you ever heard of Le Chatelier's Principle? It's more commonly applied to chemical reactions, but in many real-life situations, reactions and effects are reversible. The Global Temperature / atmospheric CO2  relationship is such an equilibrium situation.  Increase the CO2, the temperature rises, but increase the temperature (for example by increases in solar irradiance, and CO2 is released from the Oceans, increasing the atmospheric concentration.   



Muso, this is post-modern, activist science journalism. Unwittingly,  you are undermining your own case in the rush to be seen as as knowledgable. That kind of rerversability of cause and effect, if applied to warming, would mean that the increased CO2 is not due to human activity. So going with Chatelier's Priniple, you would have to revise the A in AGW.

But then we would have a completely different issue and the question would be: how to respond to natural climate change? I would hazard a guess that the existing shake-down principles would continue to apply but at least humanity would not be fingered as the casuei
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Reply #264 - Feb 8th, 2010 at 11:46pm
 
I would like to share three rules I have introduced into my life that have brought me much peace and tranqulity, not to mention saved me an awful lot of time:

1. Do not debate evolution with overzealous christians.
2. Do not debate the causes of lung cancer with tobacco lobbyists.
3. Do not debate anthropogenic global warming with deniers.
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Reply #265 - Feb 9th, 2010 at 7:08am
 
Fair enough points Paella, but the fact is that most responses are not given in a vain attempt at penetrating the intransigent attitudes of the deniers, but rather to not leave false ideas, and false premises left unchallenged.
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Reply #266 - Feb 9th, 2010 at 10:42am
 
Soren wrote on Feb 8th, 2010 at 9:03pm:
Quote:
Have you ever heard of Le Chatelier's Principle? It's more commonly applied to chemical reactions, but in many real-life situations, reactions and effects are reversible. The Global Temperature / atmospheric CO2  relationship is such an equilibrium situation.  Increase the CO2, the temperature rises, but increase the temperature (for example by increases in solar irradiance, and CO2 is released from the Oceans, increasing the atmospheric concentration.   



Muso, this is post-modern, activist science journalism. Unwittingly,  you are undermining your own case in the rush to be seen as as knowledgable. That kind of rerversability of cause and effect, if applied to warming, would mean that the increased CO2 is not due to human activity. So going with Chatelier's Priniple, you would have to revise the A in AGW.

But then we would have a completely different issue and the question would be: how to respond to natural climate change? I would hazard a guess that the existing shake-down principles would continue to apply but at least humanity would not be fingered as the casue




You display a total ignorance of equilibria. They were teaching Le Chatelier's Principle since at least 1920. They were certainly teaching it in the 1970's when I did my first degree.

There is a natural equilibrium, but superimposed on that is the addition of about 8000 Gigatonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere every year. That is not an insignificant amount.  The effect of that has been to shift the natural equilibrium.
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Reply #267 - Feb 9th, 2010 at 10:45am
 
Soren wrote on Feb 8th, 2010 at 5:43pm:
muso wrote on Feb 8th, 2010 at 3:58pm:
Soren wrote on Feb 7th, 2010 at 8:44pm:
What is not established is that these changes are due to human activity.



Sigh. It is actually and I've explained it before ad nauseum.



That's the, er, 'science is settled' bit, isn't it?
Grin



er no - It's a bit more verbose than that. See the sticky threads.
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Reply #268 - Feb 9th, 2010 at 1:42pm
 
Paella wrote on Feb 8th, 2010 at 11:46pm:
3. Do not debate anthropogenic global warming with deniers.


But kibbitzing is OK, presumably.



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Reply #269 - Feb 9th, 2010 at 2:14pm
 
muso wrote on Feb 9th, 2010 at 10:42am:
Soren wrote on Feb 8th, 2010 at 9:03pm:
Quote:
Have you ever heard of Le Chatelier's Principle? It's more commonly applied to chemical reactions, but in many real-life situations, reactions and effects are reversible. The Global Temperature / atmospheric CO2  relationship is such an equilibrium situation.  Increase the CO2, the temperature rises, but increase the temperature (for example by increases in solar irradiance, and CO2 is released from the Oceans, increasing the atmospheric concentration.   



Muso, this is post-modern, activist science journalism. Unwittingly,  you are undermining your own case in the rush to be seen as as knowledgable. That kind of rerversability of cause and effect, if applied to warming, would mean that the increased CO2 is not due to human activity. So going with Chatelier's Priniple, you would have to revise the A in AGW.

But then we would have a completely different issue and the question would be: how to respond to natural climate change? I would hazard a guess that the existing shake-down principles would continue to apply but at least humanity would not be fingered as the casue




You display a total ignorance of equilibria. They were teaching Le Chatelier's Principle since at least 1920. They were certainly teaching it in the 1970's when I did my first degree.

There is a natural equilibrium, but superimposed on that is the addition of about 8000 Gigatonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere every year. That is not an insignificant amount.  The effect of that has been to shift the natural equilibrium.



And when was the climate in 'natural equilibrium'?

More importantly, you came up with the Chatelier bizo to show how cause and effect can be interchanged to explain away the hoistorical sequence of warming followed by increased CO2.
Applying equilibrium principles to the climate, it would mean that even though in the past Gaia increased her CO2 output in response to warming, now she is increasing her temperature in response to CO2. For the first time ever.

You are saying that by way of Chatelier's Principles of chemical equilibrium, since 1920, the after-effect of previous warmings (CO2) can become the cause of warming. At last, a 'retrospective cause'.

Because as every schoolboy knows, it's really a balance of warming and CO2 when you sit on the climate see-saw, it's only these two things that need to be in the equation. One way or another, it's gotta be that 8000 gigatonnes of CO2. That's an awful lot of lollies, even if it only means less than 0.05% of the total atmospheric gases.




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Reply #270 - Feb 9th, 2010 at 5:32pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 9th, 2010 at 1:42pm:
But kibbitzing is OK, presumably.


Yes, it's fine. But only for those who can spell it.
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Reply #271 - Feb 9th, 2010 at 6:03pm
 
Paella wrote on Feb 9th, 2010 at 5:32pm:
Soren wrote on Feb 9th, 2010 at 1:42pm:
But kibbitzing is OK, presumably.


Yes, it's fine. But only for those who can spell it.



There you go, arguing with a sceptic already! Your principles didn't last long.

Shall we move on to smokking?

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Reply #272 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 7:45am
 
Quote:
Shall we move on to smokking?


My mother makes a lovely smok, shes very good at sewing.
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Reply #273 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 7:47am
 
Soren wrote on Feb 9th, 2010 at 6:03pm:
Paella wrote on Feb 9th, 2010 at 5:32pm:
Soren wrote on Feb 9th, 2010 at 1:42pm:
But kibbitzing is OK, presumably.


Yes, it's fine. But only for those who can spell it.



There you go, arguing with a sceptic already! Your principles didn't last long.

Shall we move on to smokking?


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Reply #274 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 7:48am
 
Soren wrote on Feb 9th, 2010 at 2:14pm:
You are saying that by way of Chatelier's Principles of chemical equilibrium, since 1920, the after-effect of previous warmings (CO2) can become the cause of warming. At last, a 'retrospective cause'.

Because as every schoolboy knows, it's really a balance of warming and CO2 when you sit on the climate see-saw, it's only these two things that need to be in the equation. One way or another, it's gotta be that 8000 gigatonnes of CO2. That's an awful lot of lollies, even if it only means less than 0.05% of the total atmospheric gases.



OK. You don't understand equilibria.

Let's take the oxygen in the atmosphere as an example. Does the oxygen cause arboreal life, or does arboreal life cause oxygen?
OK - according to your logic, you can't have it both ways. Either the oxygen causes life, or life causes oxygen - which is it to be? In natural systems, very few things are simply black and white cause and effect. Most things are in a state of equilibrium or balance. However, if you add something to the system, it is possible to shift the balance.

It's just as meaningless a question as trivialising the CO2/ temperature relationship into cause and effect. Throughout pre-industrial history, sometimes CO2 and other greenhouse gases have caused temperature rise, and sometimes increased energy output from the sun has warmed the oceans  (and land) causing the release of CO2 into the atmosphere. This has almost always been a slow process, except for certain cataclysmic events.

Can you take your debating hat off for a moment and see if you understand that?
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Reply #275 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 7:54am
 
Everybody makes typos and grammatical errors. Let's not go there Typo's and spelling are not really relevant to the topic.

By the way, I choose to spell skeptic with a k because I spend a lot of time on international forums. It's like 'civilization' instead of 'civilisation'. It wouldn't surprise me if these words became alternative spellings in the next Macquarie dictionary.
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Reply #276 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 7:58am
 
Soren doesn't dare actually look at the evidence because it might mean he has to change his comfortable rut.

You can bring a Soren to evidence but you can't make him think!
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Reply #277 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 7:58am
 
Quote:
Everybody makes typos and grammatical errors. Let's not go there Typo's and spelling are not really relevant to the topic


Did somebody make a typo? I never noticed.
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Reply #278 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 8:03am
 
Soren wrote on Feb 9th, 2010 at 2:14pm:
And when was the climate in 'natural equilibrium'?


Ever since there was life on this planet. As I said, you fail to understand the term equilibrium. An equilibrium doesn't imply that nothing changes. You can change the inputs and shift an equilibrium. That's what we're talking about here.

Quote:
Applying equilibrium principles to the climate, it would mean that even though in the past Gaia increased her CO2 output in response to warming, now she is increasing her temperature in response to CO2. For the first time ever.



No- not for the first time. You are not paying attention. Re-read my post 233 - in particular this:

Quote:
In geological history there have been occasions where sharp rises in temperature were initiated and driven by large spikes in greenhouse gases, similar to the fossil fuel emissions spike of today. The Paleocene Eocene Thermal Maximum (PETM) is an example.
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Reply #279 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 8:06am
 
muso wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 7:48am:
[quote author=soren2 link=1247905174/255#269 date=1265688885]

Throughout pre-industrial history, sometimes CO2 and other greenhouse gases have caused temperature rise.


50 million years ago the planet was quite a different place.

My understanding is that in the last few hundred thousand years this was never the case, CO2 always lagged behind temperature rises. In other words, warmings and coolings continued to happen on an Earth recognisably like the present one, and in each case CO2 lagged, not drove, warming. Turn it around - CO2 increases came at tghe END of warming per iods, seemingly at the sam tim as warming slowed or stopped.
This is why in the 70s a cooling was predicted.


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Reply #280 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 8:20am
 
Darwin wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 7:58am:
Soren doesn't dare actually look at the evidence because it might mean he has to change his comfortable rut.

You can bring a Soren to evidence but you can't make him think!


Au contraire. I have stopped to think and found the evidence unconvincing. You and millions like you, have had the thinking done for you and accepted whatever you have accepted, on authority. 

Put it down to my education, my brush with Kuhn and Feyerabend, my dislike of fads and herds - I could not but remain unconvinced when presented with such an insistent, monomaniacal hypothesis about something so complex and only partially understood. In addition, I got a glimpse of the hoof of activist political opportunists and now honour demands it that I do not join the ranks of the bleeting, nodding, preening multitude. Not my kind of crowd.







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Reply #281 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 8:40am
 
muso wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 7:48am:
Soren wrote on Feb 9th, 2010 at 2:14pm:
You are saying that by way of Chatelier's Principles of chemical equilibrium, since 1920, the after-effect of previous warmings (CO2) can become the cause of warming. At last, a 'retrospective cause'.

Because as every schoolboy knows, it's really a balance of warming and CO2 when you sit on the climate see-saw, it's only these two things that need to be in the equation. One way or another, it's gotta be that 8000 gigatonnes of CO2. That's an awful lot of lollies, even if it only means less than 0.05% of the total atmospheric gases.



OK. You don't understand equilibria.



I understand the concept of equilibrium. I just don't accept that Chatelier's bizzo is applicable to warming/CO2 because, just to give you the simplest reason, warming and CO2 are not the simple see-saw AGW would like to make it out to be.

To put it in a more complex and verbose way (so even you'll understand it  Smiley) the chemical equilibrium you would like to press into service is applicable only to stable, static chemical systems. The data does not support, even by IPCC-scale stretch of the imagination, any close correlation between CO2 and warming that a principle of equilibrium would predict.
APplying warming/CO2 equilibrium to the complex and often chaotic planetary climate, is hopelessly, hopelessly reductionist, which is a goodish hallmark of the AGW way of seeing things.  Like weighing bananas and giving rat's the once over with a thermometer, or drinking poison. It will appeal only to the impressionable who are clamouring for 'climate action now'.



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Reply #282 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 8:55am
 
Soren wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 8:06am:
My understanding is that in the last few hundred thousand years this was never the case, CO2 always lagged behind temperature rises.



Your understanding is based on reading articles on contrarian sites without examining the data yourself. Sometimes it leads, and sometimes it lags. Do you dispute that, or do I have to show you the data?


The full temperature change during an ice age can not be explained by solar irradiance alone. It is amplified by CO2 and water vapour. It's not as black and white as you want to paint it. Nothing in natural systems is.

- and I explained that before too.

(By the way - is your understanding based on temperature proxies? I didn't think you liked models Smiley )
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Reply #283 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 9:12am
 
muso wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 8:55am:
It's not as black and white as you want to paint it. Nothing in natural systems is.





You do remind me of Lestat sometimes.

It was my line that climate is not as simple as a static chemical status quo, where your Chatelier's bizzo would apply. I was telling YOU that the climate is complex and chaotic
ANd you turn around and tell me that I am simplistic? Tell us about your trip to Africa, Captain!



Grin Grin Grin

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Reply #284 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 1:04pm
 
I thought the Media Watch report on press coverage of Christopher Monckton's visit was excellent:

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s2813459.htm

Imagine if someone from the IPCC was caught out, claiming to be quoting from a report they have in their possession, when it can be demonstrated that the report doesn't even exist!
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Reply #285 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 3:13pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 9:12am:
I was telling YOU that the climate is complex and chaotic



If the climate was totally chaotic then we probably couldn't survive. It's actually quite stable compared to that of say Mars.

You're thinking of weather again.
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Reply #286 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 3:24pm
 
Paella wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 1:04pm:
I thought the Media Watch report on press coverage of Christopher Monckton's visit was excellent:

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s2813459.htm

Imagine if someone from the IPCC was caught out, claiming to be quoting from a report they have in their possession, when it can be demonstrated that the report doesn't even exist!



Who needs a report when you can just make one up?

http://hot-topic.co.nz/monckton-the-case-of-the-missing-curry/
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Reply #287 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 10:32pm
 
Muso, that story is a cracker. Highly recommended!

Personally, I say "Hooray for his Lordship!" The man makes such foolish claims that his championing of denialism does the movement more harm than you, I or even Al Gore or Tim Flannery could inflict on it in a year.
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Reply #288 - Feb 11th, 2010 at 12:57pm
 
muso wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 3:13pm:
If the climate was totally chaotic then we probably couldn't survive. It's actually quite stable compared to that of say Mars.

You're thinking of weather again.


*Sigh!* Yes, 100% agree. Soren is thinking of weather. How are the deniers ever going to understand concepts like radiative forcing when they can't even tell the difference between climate and weather?
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Reply #289 - Feb 11th, 2010 at 1:35pm
 
Who said this?
"There is a fundamental uncertainty about climate change prediction that can’t be changed."

Uncertainty is fundamental. It is not going to change.


ANd you cannot uncouple the weather from the climate as the latter is the statistical expression of the given averages of the former.

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Reply #290 - Feb 11th, 2010 at 5:34pm
 
Soren,

Every time you get out of bed, you live with uncertainty.

There is uncertainty in everything, but when you have a less than 1% uncertainty,  in layman's terms, it will happen.
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Reply #291 - Feb 11th, 2010 at 5:39pm
 
Neither can you uncouple light from shadow.

But that does not mean they are the same thing.
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Reply #292 - Feb 11th, 2010 at 5:41pm
 
muso wrote on Feb 11th, 2010 at 5:34pm:
... but when you have a less than 1% uncertainty,  in layman's terms, it will happen.


It will happen 99 times out of 100 actually. but I get your point.
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Reply #293 - Feb 11th, 2010 at 8:13pm
 
muso wrote on Feb 11th, 2010 at 5:34pm:
Soren,

Every time you get out of bed, you live with uncertainty.

There is uncertainty in everything, but when you have a less than 1% uncertainty,  in layman's terms, it will happen.



lame-o, man, this is weak.

You always seem to slip into some grandmotherly hometruth when the thesis you bring us is shown to be lame.

When I point out the fundamental uncertainty of climate predictions - you poo poo.
When I quote the chief scientist of England in support - you go all folksy and pretend that I need need to be reminded of what I just told you.


A minute ago it was all a misunderstanding by me (poor Soren, he don't know his weather from his climate, poor illiterate) - now it's all so bloody obvious that I need to be reminded of the plain truth of it all.

The one thing you don't see is the hubris. Every time a boosterist/warmerist does the 'I am so tired of this incomprehension'  routine, all enervated and *sighing* in faux despair - his case is diminished.

What you do not get because of your hubris is this: you don't have a case unless you can convince people. Sighing and being  exasperated by the peasanty is not a sufficient way of making a case. It may make you feel fulfilled and virtuous and part of the 'in' crowd, but it does zip for what you want to get across.







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Reply #294 - Feb 11th, 2010 at 11:30pm
 
I have to agree with Soren. Getting frustrated and *sighing* at deniers gives a semblance of respectability to the denialist argument that their point of view is being supressed. Moreover, it is a wholly pointless exercise: the remaining hard core of deniers will never agree with action on climate change. Never, no matter what.

They might eventually drop their argument against anthropogenic global warming, just as they eventually dropped the argument that global warming wasn't even happening (granted, their are still a few crackpots pushing this view). But if they do drop the anti-AGW position they will just move on to another form of resistance, and it could well be more dangerous than the current form. For example, the next denial wave might take the position that "we didn't cause it, they (the third world) did, and all we need to do is protect ourselves from the consequences and let the other half go hang". I think it's pretty clear that this "Plan B" is already well beyond its formative stages.

It is often stated that an archeologist could exume the bones of jesus and lay them on the floor of St Peter's, and the next day there would still be a billion Christians who actually believe in the ressurection. Well the bones of jesus were dug up on the deniers in about 1975, and has that stopped the resistance? No.

All it's done is changed the shape of the resistance.
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Reply #295 - Feb 12th, 2010 at 7:00am
 
Paella wrote on Feb 11th, 2010 at 11:30pm:
I have to agree with Soren. Getting frustrated and *sighing* at deniers gives a semblance of respectability to the denialist argument that their point of view is being supressed. Moreover, it is a wholly pointless exercise: the remaining hard core of deniers will never agree with action on climate change. Never, no matter what.

They might eventually drop their argument against anthropogenic global warming, just as they eventually dropped the argument that global warming wasn't even happening (granted, their are still a few crackpots pushing this view). But if they do drop the anti-AGW position they will just move on to another form of resistance, and it could well be more dangerous than the current form. For example, the next denial wave might take the position that "we didn't cause it, they (the third world) did, and all we need to do is protect ourselves from the consequences and let the other half go hang". I think it's pretty clear that this "Plan B" is already well beyond its formative stages.

It is often stated that an archeologist could exume the bones of jesus and lay them on the floor of St Peter's, and the next day there would still be a billion Christians who actually believe in the ressurection. Well the bones of jesus were dug up on the deniers in about 1975, and has that stopped the resistance? No.

All it's done is changed the shape of the resistance.



What the hell happened??


Paella wrote on Feb 8th, 2010 at 11:46pm:
3. Do not debate anthropogenic global warming with deniers.


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Reply #296 - Feb 12th, 2010 at 7:12am
 
Paella wrote on Feb 11th, 2010 at 11:30pm:
All it's done is changed the shape of the resistance.



The shape of the resistance?

You seem to belong to the class of people who have been seething with frustration for more than a century now because the various bandwagons of social control they have joined is not conquering other minds fast enough.

Like some oberstrumfuhrer or commissar, you can't win arguments so you want to impose and speak of resistance to that imposition. That you have not made a sufficient case does not enter your hubristic minds.



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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #297 - Feb 12th, 2010 at 9:25am
 
Soren Lorenson, please read the post in future before replying. It's too late for that now, but do have a look at my previous post when you get time. You may, after a few readings and some help from your mum, manage to understand that I am putting the case for not debating APW with climate change deniers.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #298 - Feb 12th, 2010 at 8:35pm
 
Paella wrote on Feb 12th, 2010 at 9:25am:
Soren Lorenson, please read the post in future before replying. It's too late for that now, but do have a look at my previous post when you get time. You may, after a few readings and some help from your mum, manage to understand that I am putting the case for not debating APW with climate change deniers.



Mum says 'Ask him, what the hell is he doing debating you then? '

(Mum always knows what to say, bless 'er. I'm so lucky. Ta, mamma!)
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #299 - Feb 13th, 2010 at 1:43pm
 
Paella wrote on Feb 11th, 2010 at 11:30pm:
I have to agree with Soren...


Exactly which part of this does Soren Lorenson find so hard to understand?
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #300 - Feb 13th, 2010 at 1:59pm
 
Paella wrote on Feb 13th, 2010 at 1:43pm:
Paella wrote on Feb 11th, 2010 at 11:30pm:
I have to agree with Soren...


Exactly which part of this does Soren Lorenson find so hard to understand?

Grin
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #301 - Feb 13th, 2010 at 3:21pm
 
Paella wrote on Feb 13th, 2010 at 1:43pm:
Paella wrote on Feb 11th, 2010 at 11:30pm:
I have to agree with Soren...


Exactly which part of this does Soren Lorenson find so hard to understand?



The rest of that post after that verbal feint, and the posts before it, were arguments with/against sceptics about warmerist panickers. You did not mean agreement with sceptics about warmerism, only that enervated sighing  is not useful in countering 'resistance'.

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #302 - Feb 13th, 2010 at 5:22pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 12th, 2010 at 7:12am:
Paella wrote on Feb 11th, 2010 at 11:30pm:
All it's done is changed the shape of the resistance.



The shape of the resistance?

You seem to belong to the class of people who have been seething with frustration for more than a century now because the various bandwagons of social control they have joined is not conquering other minds fast enough.

Like some oberstrumfuhrer or commissar, you can't win arguments so you want to impose and speak of resistance to that imposition. That you have not made a sufficient case does not enter your hubristic minds.



Actually there is a sad irony in that. It's a bit like saying that if all you can do is counter solid science with inconsistent half truths and cherry picking, and mischaracterise your opponent as being part of a global Marxist Maoist Trotskyist, Chicken Littleist, Aleister Crowleyist, (add your favourite -ist) Leftist plot............... then you have clearly lost the argument and are left with nothing but name calling.  
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #303 - Feb 13th, 2010 at 6:10pm
 
Except, of course, sceptics have not clearly lost the argument.

Your biggest problem is the people on your side and their solution. You have both the mad green ferals and the speculators on side with carbon trading, the stupidest idea around. Only someone with no clue scientific clue ()like green ferals and financial speculators and 'progressive' politicians) could come up with that.

So the ordinary Joe, while not understanding the 'science', can clearly smell the spin and dishonesty surrounding AGW.
The 'science' in this sense, is the least of it.
Point out to Joe the 'scientific' crap (the tendentiousness, the browbeating, the peer reviewed bitchiness, the hockey stick modelling that will give you the same answer, no matter what the question) and political arrognce and you have a lost cause, at least for the nonce. Cap it all off with haughty sighing about how stupid the plebs are and you are done like dinner.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #304 - Feb 13th, 2010 at 7:53pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 13th, 2010 at 6:10pm:
Except, of course, sceptics have not clearly lost the argument.

Your biggest problem is the people on your side and their solution. You have both the mad green ferals and the speculators on side with carbon trading, the stupidest idea around. Only someone with no clue scientific clue ()like green ferals and financial speculators and 'progressive' politicians) could come up with that.



I have long held the view that a carbon tax is a far better solution that carbon trading. I have no argument there.

Quote:
So the ordinary Joe, while not understanding the 'science', can clearly smell the spin and dishonesty surrounding AGW.
The 'science' in this sense, is the least of it.
Point out to Joe the 'scientific' crap (the tendentiousness, the browbeating, the peer reviewed bitchiness, the hockey stick modelling that will give you the same answer, no matter what the question) and political arrognce and you have a lost cause, at least for the nonce. Cap it all off with haughty sighing about how stupid the plebs are and you are done like dinner.


So it sounds like you have more of a problem with the sales pitch (wtf?) than the idea itself.

All that concerns me are the facts. I'm not concerned with political arrogance or the obvious conclusion that you don't have the slightest clue about scientific principles. I have supplied a reasonably concise explanation in the 'sticky' 'climate change explained' section, and so far  you haven't come up with anything to actually counter any of that. After having (reasonably patiently if I may say so) done my best to explain the basics of radiative forcing, going into some detail of why it stems  from a fundamental property of the carbon dioxide molecule, the best you can do is to shriek in a Hansonesque manner (Pauline that is)  "I don't like it!",  "I don't buy  it" or "AGW is crap" without offering any explanation for why you think that is the case.

Your main problem is that you just think that you're winning the argument. Perhaps you would be more gainfully employed here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYFQZFL0yoo

Quote:
Arguments - Thick people are very good at winning arguments because.... they're too thick to realise that they've lost ....


Let's face it, you'd be right at home in the society of George Orwell's 1984.

Ignorance is strength, comrade.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Every time I use the word comrade, I am reminded of the use of the term tóngzhì ( 同志) in the PRC. It's a little bit dated to call everyone comrade these days. In China, if you call somebody tóngzhì, the worst they think of you is that you're a bit behind the times. However  in Taiwan, it's a totally different ballgame. If somebody calls you tóngzhì in a bar in Taipei city, you're in the wrong kind of bar, and you should get out of there quick-fast being sure not to turn your back on anyone  Grin - unless, that is, you happen to bat for the other team.

So maybe paella is right. It's really not worth 'debating' with climate pseudoskeptics. They even have a totally different language and a whole newly engineered way of thinking. When you say something that's perfectly straightforward, it will get spat out at you in a strangely mangled form.

It is however worth correcting nonsense so that it doesn't go completely unchallenged.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #305 - Feb 13th, 2010 at 8:59pm
 
Being petulant is for kids.

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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #306 - Feb 14th, 2010 at 4:09pm
 
I have just caught up with this on my pod. A fertile discussion, even when it prompts 'yes, but...'


In his new book, Why We Disagree About Climate Change, top British climate scientist Mike Hulme wants to understand climate change as a psychological and cultural force. Anthropologist Jonathan Marshall has just edited a provocative collection of Jungian perspectives on climate change. They join Natasha Mitchell to discuss mythology, mental ecology and a changing climate.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/allinthemind/stories/2009/2746165.htm
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #307 - Feb 15th, 2010 at 3:24pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 13th, 2010 at 3:21pm:
You did not mean agreement with sceptics about warmerism, only that enervated sighing  is not useful in countering 'resistance'.


At last, he's got it! Soren Lorenson has actually got it!
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #308 - Feb 15th, 2010 at 4:27pm
 
Paella wrote on Feb 15th, 2010 at 3:24pm:
Soren wrote on Feb 13th, 2010 at 3:21pm:
You did not mean agreement with sceptics about warmerism, only that enervated sighing  is not useful in countering 'resistance'.


At last, he's got it! Soren Lorenson has actually got it!



Muso, Mozz,  you have 'im, you keep 'im.

And, er, good luck  Wink



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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #309 - Mar 3rd, 2010 at 10:37pm
 
Global Warming Consensus Reaches 130% with -50% Against
By Will Beria


It's official: the consensus for Man-made Climate Change is now over-unanimous. The results from a recent poll conducted by the Mann-Hansen Group strongly support Man-made Climate Change theories by 130% for to -50% against. This unprecedented result was obtained by counting a 'no' vote as a negative response which is added by subtracting. This also generates a positive feedback raising the pro vote beyond the 100% level.

Explained a Mann-Hansen expert, "Yes, the numbers don't exactly add up to 100, a discrepancy we attribute to the carbon offset, as the poll takers, being life forms, have quite a bit of carbon in them. In any case, the whole thing has man's carbon fingerprints all over it. Our computer models can rectify this using the customary Flexible Up and Down Guess Estimate, or FUDGE factor. This might seem unnatural, but Man-made Climate Change is unnatural, so the consensus may as well be, too. You have to fight fire with fire."

He continued, "The Precautionary Principle would seem to imply we act with caution, but as the consensus has passed the 100% tipping point, it no longer applies. This invokes the Post-Cautionary Principle meaning radical, precipitous action is now required. Which is what we've been saying all along, only now we've produced some overwhelming numbers to back us up."


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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #310 - Mar 4th, 2010 at 8:41am
 
Congratulations soren lorenson, you have managed to cite a more ridiculous authority than Christopher Monckton. Quite an achievement!

Now, any peer reviewed scientific research?

No?

Good.
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Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #311 - Apr 6th, 2010 at 11:36am
 
It will be funnier and funnier.

Quote:
Permafrost soils release large quantities of the greenhouse gas nitrous oxide following thawing and re-saturation of the soil, according to a study published online this week in Nature Geoscience.


http://www.natureasia.com/en/highlights/details.php?id=636

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