Australian Politics Forum - Climate Change Discussion and Questions

muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions Reply #285 - Feb 10^th, 2010 at 3:13pm Soren wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 9:12am: I was telling YOU that the climate is complex and chaotic If the climate was totally chaotic then we probably couldn't survive. It's actually quite stable compared to that of say Mars. You're thinking of weather again.
Back to top	1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #286 - Feb 10^th, 2010 at 3:24pm

Paella wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 1:04pm:

I thought the Media Watch report on press coverage of Christopher Monckton's visit was excellent:

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s2813459.htm

Imagine if someone from the IPCC was caught out, claiming to be quoting from a report they have in their possession, when it can be demonstrated that the report doesn't even exist!

Who needs a report when you can just make one up?

http://hot-topic.co.nz/monckton-the-case-of-the-missing-curry/

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Paella Senior Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 290	Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions Reply #287 - Feb 10^th, 2010 at 10:32pm Muso, that story is a cracker. Highly recommended! Personally, I say "Hooray for his Lordship!" The man makes such foolish claims that his championing of denialism does the movement more harm than you, I or even Al Gore or Tim Flannery could inflict on it in a year.
Back to top	IP Logged

Paella

Senior Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 290

Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #288 - Feb 11^th, 2010 at 12:57pm

muso wrote on Feb 10^th, 2010 at 3:13pm:

If the climate was totally chaotic then we probably couldn't survive. It's actually quite stable compared to that of say Mars.

You're thinking of weather again.

*Sigh!* Yes, 100% agree. Soren is thinking of weather. How are the deniers ever going to understand concepts like radiative forcing when they can't even tell the difference between climate and weather?

Back to top

IP Logged

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions Reply #289 - Feb 11^th, 2010 at 1:35pm Who said this? "There is a fundamental uncertainty about climate change prediction that can’t be changed." Uncertainty is fundamental. It is not going to change. ANd you cannot uncouple the weather from the climate as the latter is the statistical expression of the given averages of the former.
Back to top	IP Logged

muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions Reply #290 - Feb 11^th, 2010 at 5:34pm Soren, Every time you get out of bed, you live with uncertainty. There is uncertainty in everything, but when you have a less than 1% uncertainty, in layman's terms, it will happen.
Back to top	1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not IP Logged

Paella Senior Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 290	Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions Reply #291 - Feb 11^th, 2010 at 5:39pm Neither can you uncouple light from shadow. But that does not mean they are the same thing.
Back to top	IP Logged

Paella Senior Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 290	Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions Reply #292 - Feb 11^th, 2010 at 5:41pm muso wrote on Feb 11^th, 2010 at 5:34pm: ... but when you have a less than 1% uncertainty, in layman's terms, it will happen. It will happen 99 times out of 100 actually. but I get your point.
Back to top	IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #293 - Feb 11^th, 2010 at 8:13pm

muso wrote on Feb 11^th, 2010 at 5:34pm:

Soren,

Every time you get out of bed, you live with uncertainty.

There is uncertainty in everything, but when you have a less than 1% uncertainty, in layman's terms, it will happen.

lame-o, man, this is weak.

You always seem to slip into some grandmotherly hometruth when the thesis you bring us is shown to be lame.

When I point out the fundamental uncertainty of climate predictions - you poo poo.
When I quote the chief scientist of England in support - you go all folksy and pretend that I need need to be reminded of what I just told you.

A minute ago it was all a misunderstanding by me (poor Soren, he don't know his weather from his climate, poor illiterate) - now it's all so bloody obvious that I need to be reminded of the plain truth of it all.

The one thing you don't see is the hubris. Every time a boosterist/warmerist does the 'I am so tired of this incomprehension' routine, all enervated and *sighing* in faux despair - his case is diminished.

What you do not get because of your hubris is this: you don't have a case unless you can convince people. Sighing and being exasperated by the peasanty is not a sufficient way of making a case. It may make you feel fulfilled and virtuous and part of the 'in' crowd, but it does zip for what you want to get across.

Back to top

IP Logged

Paella

Senior Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 290

Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #294 - Feb 11^th, 2010 at 11:30pm

I have to agree with Soren. Getting frustrated and *sighing* at deniers gives a semblance of respectability to the denialist argument that their point of view is being supressed. Moreover, it is a wholly pointless exercise: the remaining hard core of deniers will never agree with action on climate change. Never, no matter what.

They might eventually drop their argument against anthropogenic global warming, just as they eventually dropped the argument that global warming wasn't even happening (granted, their are still a few crackpots pushing this view). But if they do drop the anti-AGW position they will just move on to another form of resistance, and it could well be more dangerous than the current form. For example, the next denial wave might take the position that "we didn't cause it, they (the third world) did, and all we need to do is protect ourselves from the consequences and let the other half go hang". I think it's pretty clear that this "Plan B" is already well beyond its formative stages.

It is often stated that an archeologist could exume the bones of jesus and lay them on the floor of St Peter's, and the next day there would still be a billion Christians who actually believe in the ressurection. Well the bones of jesus were dug up on the deniers in about 1975, and has that stopped the resistance? No.

All it's done is changed the shape of the resistance.

Back to top

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #295 - Feb 12^th, 2010 at 7:00am

Paella wrote on Feb 11^th, 2010 at 11:30pm:

I have to agree with Soren. Getting frustrated and *sighing* at deniers gives a semblance of respectability to the denialist argument that their point of view is being supressed. Moreover, it is a wholly pointless exercise: the remaining hard core of deniers will never agree with action on climate change. Never, no matter what.

They might eventually drop their argument against anthropogenic global warming, just as they eventually dropped the argument that global warming wasn't even happening (granted, their are still a few crackpots pushing this view). But if they do drop the anti-AGW position they will just move on to another form of resistance, and it could well be more dangerous than the current form. For example, the next denial wave might take the position that "we didn't cause it, they (the third world) did, and all we need to do is protect ourselves from the consequences and let the other half go hang". I think it's pretty clear that this "Plan B" is already well beyond its formative stages.

It is often stated that an archeologist could exume the bones of jesus and lay them on the floor of St Peter's, and the next day there would still be a billion Christians who actually believe in the ressurection. Well the bones of jesus were dug up on the deniers in about 1975, and has that stopped the resistance? No.

All it's done is changed the shape of the resistance.

What the hell happened??

Paella wrote on Feb 8^th, 2010 at 11:46pm:

3. Do not debate anthropogenic global warming with deniers.

Back to top

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #296 - Feb 12^th, 2010 at 7:12am

Paella wrote on Feb 11^th, 2010 at 11:30pm:

All it's done is changed the shape of the resistance.

The shape of the resistance?

You seem to belong to the class of people who have been seething with frustration for more than a century now because the various bandwagons of social control they have joined is not conquering other minds fast enough.

Like some oberstrumfuhrer or commissar, you can't win arguments so you want to impose and speak of resistance to that imposition. That you have not made a sufficient case does not enter your hubristic minds.

Back to top

IP Logged

Paella

Senior Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 290

Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #297 - Feb 12^th, 2010 at 9:25am

Soren Lorenson, please read the post in future before replying. It's too late for that now, but do have a look at my previous post when you get time. You may, after a few readings and some help from your mum, manage to understand that I am putting the case for not debating APW with climate change deniers.

Back to top

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions
Reply #298 - Feb 12^th, 2010 at 8:35pm

Paella wrote on Feb 12^th, 2010 at 9:25am:

Soren Lorenson, please read the post in future before replying. It's too late for that now, but do have a look at my previous post when you get time. You may, after a few readings and some help from your mum, manage to understand that I am putting the case for not debating APW with climate change deniers.

Mum says 'Ask him, what the hell is he doing debating you then? '

(Mum always knows what to say, bless 'er. I'm so lucky. Ta, mamma!)

Back to top

IP Logged

Paella Senior Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 290	Re: Climate Change Discussion and Questions Reply #299 - Feb 13^th, 2010 at 1:43pm Paella wrote on Feb 11^th, 2010 at 11:30pm: I have to agree with Soren... Exactly which part of this does Soren Lorenson find so hard to understand?
Back to top	IP Logged