Australian Politics Forum - Temperature changes in water

mantra Gold Member Offline ozpolitic.com Posts: 10750 Gender:	Temperature changes in water Jul 1^st, 2009 at 2:26pm Would a 1 litre glass bowl of water sitting in the same cold room temperature as a 4 litre glass bowl of water end up being colder or warmer?
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Temperature changes in water Reply #1 - Jul 1^st, 2009 at 3:19pm mantra wrote on Jul 1^st, 2009 at 2:26pm: Would a 1 litre glass bowl of water sitting in the same cold room temperature as a 4 litre glass bowl of water end up being colder or warmer? ` They would both end up at the same temperature - room temperature.
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mantra

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Re: Temperature changes in water
Reply #2 - Jul 1^st, 2009 at 3:46pm

1 litre of water would get warmer quicker than 4 litres in a warm room - this is why I am having difficulty figuring out the reverse. Wouldn't the increased volume of water make a difference to the coolness of the water?

I was given this little warm water fish - and he has two bowls. I've put him in the small one because it feels warmer, although he hates it and prefers the bigger bowl which is his Summer bowl. But as these fish are susceptible to water temperatures, I thought the smaller bowl wouldn't get as cold because I always assumed - the deeper the water the cooler it got.

But I'll take your word for it though Muso and thanks.

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muso

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Re: Temperature changes in water
Reply #3 - Jul 1^st, 2009 at 4:10pm

mantra wrote on Jul 1^st, 2009 at 3:46pm:

1 litre of water would get warmer quicker than 4 litres in a warm room - this is why I am having difficulty figuring out the reverse. Wouldn't the increased volume of water make a difference to the coolness of the water?

I was given this little warm water fish - and he has two bowls. I've put him in the small one because it feels warmer, although he hates it and prefers the bigger bowl which is his Summer bowl. But as these fish are susceptible to water temperatures, I thought the smaller bowl wouldn't get as cold because I always assumed - the deeper the water the cooler it got.

But I'll take your word for it though Muso and thanks.

Mantra,

The difference between 4 litres and 1 litres in terms of cooling is minimal.

Generally, the larger the body of water, the greater the total thermal inertia. For example, a swimming pool will tend to reach a temperature somewhere around the average temperature between maximum and minimum.

There are three main factors that will determine the water temperature

1. The rate of heat dissipation between the water and the ambient air,

2. The relative humidity of the ambient air.
3. The presence or absence of air currents.

With a lower RH, you tend to get higher evaporation rates, which tends to cool the water slightly (but not significantly) . Think of dry and wet bulb temperatures.

The RH that is important is that of the vapour space above the water surface. This will tend towards equilibrium if there are fewer air currents.

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mantra

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Re: Temperature changes in water
Reply #4 - Jul 1^st, 2009 at 4:43pm

I'm just trying to translate this, because even a couple of degrees can make a big difference.

Quote:

The rate of heat dissipation between the water and the ambient air,

So if the water was a moderate temperature - it would maintain that temperature as long as there was only a small outlet open to allow less water to evaporate - excluding air currents & humidity of course.

Quote:

Generally, the larger the body of water, the greater the total thermal inertia

Does that mean the larger the body of water - depending on the room temperature, the more extreme (whether it be hot or cold) it will be? This is contradictory to what you first stated, so I've probably misunderstood "thermal inertia" which I had to look up. Huh

I'll put the little fish back in the big bowl and put some sort of cover over it to protect it from evaporation and hopefully he'll survive the Winter. By touch - the water in the larger bowl just seems so much colder.

Thanks Muso for your explanation. It was interesting, although a little challenging.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53181 At my desk.	Re: Temperature changes in water Reply #5 - Jul 1^st, 2009 at 8:45pm Mantra, the smaller body of water would cool down quicker, just like the warming example. But they would reach the same temperature eventually, assuming the room temperature is constant.
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muso

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Re: Temperature changes in water
Reply #6 - Jul 1^st, 2009 at 9:07pm

I really don't think it will make much difference. For all intents and purposes the water will be the same temperature in both after a very short period of time. The effects I was talking about are very minimal.

Also if you have fish in there, don't go blocking the top or they'll die from lack of oxygen.

What s probably more critical is to make sure that you get rid of the chlorine, or you'll kill the fish. You can get drops for that from the pet shop.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53181 At my desk.	Re: Temperature changes in water Reply #7 - Jul 1^st, 2009 at 9:15pm Put the fish in the larger bowl. The temperature will not vary as much as the smaller bowl. The smaller bowl will get a lot colder on cold nights. You can also get cheap fish tank heaters.
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mantra

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Re: Temperature changes in water
Reply #8 - Jul 1^st, 2009 at 9:36pm

Thanks for the tips - FD & Muso. I've had fish on and off for years, but I was given an unwanted Chinese fighting fish. I don't want to get into heaters at this stage as I've had them before & they break too easily. He's survived since the beginning of Summer - just wanted to see if I could get him to survive through winter.

There are plenty of plants in the tank for oxygen, but in the larger bowl he was up at the top all the time and barely moved in the cold mornings, whereas in the small bowl he hovers around the middle and seems a bit more active.

Why I asked about water temperatures is because the deeper you go into the sea - the colder it gets - whereas shallow water tends to stay more tepid. I thought the same might apply to smaller contained volumes of water.

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Re: Temperature changes in water
Reply #9 - Jul 1^st, 2009 at 9:54pm

Quote:

Why I asked about water temperatures is because the deeper you go into the sea - the colder it gets - whereas shallow water tends to stay more tepid. I thought the same might apply to smaller contained volumes of water.

Not really. You need fairly long distances for a temperature gradient like that to build up.

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locutius

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Re: Temperature changes in water
Reply #10 - Jul 2^nd, 2009 at 12:31pm

Hi Mantra,

You've probably already done this but just in case

The Chinese/Siamese Fighting Fish, also known as the Betta are beautiful fish and can live up to 7 years if properly taken care of. However, most only survive 2-3 years because of the lack of care.

#1.

- Tank size: Absolute minimum is 1 gallon. The best size is 2.5 - 5 gallons
- Do NOT keep them with other Bettas or fish resembling the colorful betta
- Heater is needed to keep the tank at a stable temperature of 75-80 Farenheit
- A low current filter is needed for tanks 2.5 gallon and larger. Don't forget to cycle your tank beforehand
- For smaller tanks/bowls without a filter, change all of the water once weekly
- Make sure the water is dechlorinated (use bottled water or get a water conditioner)

#2.

- Do overfeed
- The do not variy the food to much or they get confused.
reats) weekly and betta pellets or flakes
- I highly recommend the Hikari brand
- Feed as much as your Betta will eat in two minutes, once daily
- Do not feed them one day of the week (except for a piece of a boiled pea) to clear their digestive systems

http://www.instructables.com/id/How_to_Properly_Care_for_a_Betta_Fish/

#3.

Watch your fish for any signs of diseases

If there are any signs of diseases, try to diagnose him and treat him immediately.
-------------------------------

They don't like being on their own put in another fish for company. Purchase your feed at the store and feed accordingly. Make sure you change the water and clean the fish bowl on a regular basis.

ANSWER

I have a beautiful peach one in my community tank and i have to disagree with what i have read here totally.

I have had a chinese fighting fish in my tank with success for many years and as long as you do not have them with fish like angel fish then you are fine. you can only have one male in a tank as they will fight to the death but you can have many females in the same tank and they will like in harmony. you must make sure that you provide fish with places to hide and feed them properly, to be honest what i find is becsuse i feed my fish a mixed dried food for tropical fish and weekly give then live food in the form of blood worms and daphnia they live in harmony.

to put a fish in a bowl is cruel and to be honest they look far better swimming freely in a nice tank and not in a small fish bowl

If want to have just the Chinese fighting fish. Put only one male with 3 or more females as they will chase a single female to death.Never have more than 1 male together or near to each other it does stress them and can kill them.They do do very well as mentioned above in tanks with other species of fish.

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mantra

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Re: Temperature changes in water
Reply #11 - Jul 2^nd, 2009 at 1:20pm

That was excellent information Locutius. I haven't kept tropical fish for years and didn't want to start again, but this is a rescue case. I have a variety of ornate tanks to suit most species of fish, but I didn't want to have to go down the path of setting up a tropical tank again.

He was given to me in one of those tiny little one cup plastic containers (cruel) and I put him in a 1-2 litre bowl, then transferred him to a 4-6 litre bowl where he grew quite considerably, but it has just seemed too cold for him lately in the larger bowl. I've been told to keep him by himself which I don't like doing, but was advised that as soon as he's mated, he'll eat the babies and females and any other species of fish will nibble his fins and tail off.

Now that he's back in the little bowl for the winter - I've been adding a half cup of warm water a couple of times a day, which he loves. There is a lot of fresh weed and I've been feeding him the BettaMin flakes, but have given him Betta Food minute pellets the last couple of days - and you're right - he has become confused, so I'll stick to the flakes.

I don't like any animal being alone, but I'm not sure what sort of companion fish I should get him. His water is always treated, but he has had (ever since I got him) stress marks on his fins and looks a bit limp. But he's hanging in there.

Your post said "do overfeed" (was that a mistake) - I probably do, but there are a few little snails which seem to clean up the excess and I only clean his bowls about once a month.

I will definitely try the "pea" tomorrow - I tried peas on my disgusting old giant slugs (lungfish) and they won't touch them.

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locutius

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Re: Temperature changes in water
Reply #12 - Jul 10^th, 2009 at 2:38pm

Sorry had not gotten back soon on this Mantra. Hoe is the little bloke going?

As for companions, they do quite well with a lot of fish I found but suufer from the aggressive tail biters (Barbs) I think they were called. While they are aggressive with other males of the same same species they are actually quite placid.

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Calanen

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Re: Temperature changes in water
Reply #13 - Jul 11^th, 2009 at 10:48am

If Mantra put her head in a four litre bucket of water, and a 1 litre bucket of water, would we still be able to hear her talking about how good Multiculturalism is in:

(a) the 4 litre bucket
(b) the 1 litre bucket
(c) the Mariana Trench 7 miles underwater;
(d) it's a trick question, mantra would not be stopped from talking with any volume of water.

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tallowood

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Re: Temperature changes in water
Reply #14 - Jul 11^th, 2009 at 11:46am

Calanen wrote on Jul 11^th, 2009 at 10:48am:

If Mantra put her head in a four litre bucket of water, and a 1 litre bucket of water, would we still be able to hear her talking about how good Multiculturalism is in:

(a) the 4 litre bucket
(b) the 1 litre bucket
(c) the Mariana Trench 7 miles underwater;
(d) it's a trick question, mantra would not be stopped from talking with any volume of water.

Talking is basic human right respected in democratic countries and on democratic forums but suppressed by dictators in moslem and atheistic countries and forums.

But back to topic:
Mantra, you can stabilise water temperature of the bowl by placing the bowl into styrofoam box. You can get the box from a green grocery shop after they emptied broccolis or such out of it.

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