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Grendel: man cannot control the climate (Read 13736 times)
mantra
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Re: Grendel: man cannot control the climate
Reply #105 - Jul 27th, 2009 at 11:19pm
 
Quote:
Examine everything carefully and cross examine, but in the end, be prepared to change your views if you do come to the inevitable conclusion that maybe you were wrong.


Maybe those who aren't advocating one scenario or the other are those who are prepared to change their views when there is proof that taxing us through the roof will alter the climate. The wealthy will still keep using as much energy as they need for their comfort, but there will be many more people suffer as a result of this. In NSW alone there are about 180,000 people who can't afford electricity - which is disgraceful.

In NSW coal fired power stations aren't regulated for emissions, and we know that above a certain level, CO2 causes heavy pollution - yet we are being forced to pay 20% more for our energy - for what - so the power stations can chug along unrestricted with unsafe levels of emissions and continue to increase their profits. How will this alter the climate for the better?

You have even said yourself Muso this new goal to change the climate has nothing to do with the environment which means we are being misled. Mozzaok is right when he says we should work towards a common goal, but at least feed us information that makes sense.



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muso
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Re: Grendel: man cannot control the climate
Reply #106 - Jul 30th, 2009 at 5:26am
 
Brief post only.  I must buy a full sized kb for travelling.

The way that the  ALP are going about emissions trading is flawed, and I tend to agreewith the Libs on that.

They need toget their act together.  I had hoped Australia would lead on this, but it looks like we'll just have to follow the lead of others.

Operating without some system  for paying for carbon combustion is like manufacturing goods without paying for waste disposal.

The whole system needs to work with minimal disruption to the economy, however coal fired power generation can't be viable long term - or I'd be surprised if CC ever works properly. A 90% capture is not ideal, but it's a step in the right direction.

Personally I'd like to see all options pursued, including nuclear. Realistically, it ain't going to happen in Australia.

I don't care which government does it. I'd just as soon vote for the Libs if I thought they had the balls (and ability) to get a  good scheme working as soon as possible.
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Soren
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Re: Grendel: man cannot control the climate
Reply #107 - Jul 31st, 2009 at 1:46pm
 
Read and weep - or laugh (like me), depending on your temperament and your position on the alarmist-denialist spectrum.


Quote:
A chemical reaction
Thursday, 30th July 2009

When the worm finally turns, it really gets itself into a flat-out spin. More and more scientists have just about had it up to here with the rubbish being put out as the ‘consensus’ on man-made global warming. Marc Morano reports how members of the American Chemical Society (ACS) have risen in revolt against the group’s editor-in-chief -- with demands for his removal -- after an editorial appeared claiming ‘the science of anthropogenic climate change is becoming increasingly well established.’

The editorial claimed the ‘consensus’ view was growing ‘increasingly difficult to challenge, despite the efforts of diehard climate-change deniers.’ The editor now admits he is ‘startled’ by the negative reaction from the group’s scientific members.

Poor bewildered soul. He really thought he had written what was undeniably the case. Here are some examples of that ‘negative reaction’ he produced:

ACS member scientist Dr. Howard Hayden, a Physics Professor Emeritus from the University of Connecticut: ‘Baum's remarks are particularly disquieting because of his hostility toward skepticism, which is part of every scientist's soul. Let's cut to the chase with some questions for Baum: Which of the 20-odd major climate models has settled the science, such that all of the rest are now discarded? [...] Do you refer to ‘climate change’ instead of 'global warming' because the claim of anthropogenic global warming has become increasingly contrary to fact?’

William E. Keller wrote: ‘However bitter you (Baum) personally may feel about CCDs (climate change deniers), it is not your place as editor to accuse them—falsely—of nonscientific behavior by using insultingly inappropriate language. [...] The growing body of scientists, whom you abuse as sowing doubt, making up statistics, and claiming to be ignored by the media, are, in the main, highly competent professionals, experts in their fields, completely honorable, and highly versed in the scientific method—characteristics that apparently do not apply to you.’

Morano points out that this revolt is but the latest in a series of recent eruptions against the so-called ‘consensus’ on man-made global warming:

On May 1 2009, the American Physical Society (APS) Council decided to review its current climate statement via a high-level subcommittee of respected senior scientists. The decision was prompted after a group of 54 prominent physicists petitioned the APS revise its global warming position. The 54 physicists wrote to APS governing board: ‘Measured or reconstructed temperature records indicate that 20th - 21st century changes are neither exceptional nor persistent, and the historical and geological records show many periods warmer than today.’

The petition signed by the prominent physicists, led by Princeton University's Dr. Will Happer, who has conducted 200 peer-reviewed scientific studies. The peer-reviewed journal Nature published a July 22, 2009 letter by the physicists persuading the APS to review its statement. In 2008, an American Physical Society editor conceded that a ‘considerable presence’ of scientific skeptics exists.

In addition, in April 2009, the Polish National Academy of Science reportedly ‘published a document that expresses skepticism over the concept of man-made global warming.’ An abundance of new peer-reviewed scientific studies continue to be published challenging the UN IPCC climate views. (See: Climate Fears RIP...for 30 years!? - Global Warming could stop 'for up to 30 years! Warming 'On Hold?...'Could go into hiding for decades,' peer-reviewed study finds – sp@m – March 2, 2009 & Peer-Reviewed Study Rocks Climate Debate! 'Nature not man responsible for recent global warming...little or none of late 20th century warming and cooling can be attributed to humans' – July 23, 2009 )

A March 2009 a 255-page U. S. Senate Report detailed ‘More Than 700 International Scientists Dissenting Over Man-Made Global Warming Claims.’ 2009's continued lack of warming, further frustrated the promoters of man-made climate fears. See: Earth's 'Fever' Breaks! Global temperatures 'have plunged .74°F since Gore released An Inconvenient Truth' – July 5, 2009

And so on, and on.



http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/5232151/a-chemical-reaction.thtml
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Grendel
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Re: Grendel: man cannot control the climate
Reply #108 - Jul 31st, 2009 at 4:05pm
 
William E. Keller wrote: ‘However bitter you (Baum) personally may feel about CCDs (climate change deniers), it is not your place as editor to accuse them—falsely—of nonscientific behavior by using insultingly inappropriate language. [...] The growing body of scientists, whom you abuse as sowing doubt, making up statistics, and claiming to be ignored by the media, are, in the main, highly competent professionals, experts in their fields, completely honorable, and highly versed in the scientific method—characteristics that apparently do not apply to you.’

A point I've been trying to make (without success)  with the alarmists who post here.
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muso
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Re: Grendel: man cannot control the climate
Reply #109 - Jul 31st, 2009 at 5:56pm
 
Denialists are not really relevant. They are a bit like creationists. They'll accept any piece of information that confirms their faithful belief, and deny anything that doesn't.

Experts in their fields? Yeah I guess so. Like expert Ufologists and expert astrologers, anybody can claim expertise these days.

They have one thing in common. They are all expert Lieologists and Conologists and they get paid well for their pseudoscience.

The main thing is that most of them are old (very old). Give them a few years and they will all do the most decent thing they have done in the last 10 years for humanity.

They will die. With any luck, with a guilty conscience.

The main thing  is that governments all over the world, including China and even India, are starting to take appropriate action.
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Soren
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Re: Grendel: man cannot control the climate
Reply #110 - Jul 31st, 2009 at 6:08pm
 
muso wrote on Jul 31st, 2009 at 5:56pm:
Denialists are not really relevant. They are a bit like creationists. They'll accept any piece of information that confirms their faithful belief, and deny anything that doesn't.

Experts in their fields? Yeah I guess so. Like expert Ufologists and expert astrologers, anybody can claim expertise these days.

They have one thing in common. They are all expert Lieologists and Conologists and they get paid well for their pseudoscience.

The main thing is that most of them are old (very old). Give them a few years and they will all do the most decent thing they have done in the last 10 years for humanity.

They will die. With any luck, with a guilty conscience.

The main thing  is that governments all over the world, including China and even India, are starting to take appropriate action.


Is that an expert scientific opinion or mere rhetorical flourish and wishful thinking?

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Grendel
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Re: Grendel: man cannot control the climate
Reply #111 - Jul 31st, 2009 at 6:59pm
 
Bozo.  A fine example of; can't be told anything, foot stomping, ear covering, eye shutting, lalalaing....  a true DENIALIST.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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