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frost this morning, therefore no global warming (Read 12418 times)
freediver
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frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Jun 21st, 2009 at 6:07pm
 
Grendel hasn't started a thread lately, so I thought I would help him out. There was a frost this morning, so global warming must be a myth. Also, the average temperature in Sydney so far this month is less than in January, which just confirms my claims. Also, if you take the temperature 6 months, 3 days, 2 hours, 45 minutes and three seconds ago, and compare it with the temperature right now, and draw a straight line through the two points, then extrapolate that line forwad 3000 years, it proves that the temperature is going to sink below absolute zero.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #1 - Jun 21st, 2009 at 6:29pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 21st, 2009 at 6:07pm:
Grendel hasn't started a thread lately, so I thought I would help him out. There was a frost this morning, so global warming must be a myth. Also, the average temperature in Sydney so far this month is less than in January, which just confirms my claims. Also, if you take the temperature 6 months, 3 days, 2 hours, 45 minutes and three seconds ago, and compare it with the temperature right now, and draw a straight line through the two points, then extrapolate that line forwad 3000 years, it proves that the temperature is going to sink below absolute zero.


High school debating trick FD. You are are taking an argument to an illogical extreme in order to discredit it.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #2 - Jun 21st, 2009 at 6:30pm
 
he's an idiot I try to ignore him as much as possible.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #3 - Jun 21st, 2009 at 6:44pm
 
pjb05 wrote on Jun 21st, 2009 at 6:29pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 21st, 2009 at 6:07pm:
Grendel hasn't started a thread lately, so I thought I would help him out. There was a frost this morning, so global warming must be a myth. Also, the average temperature in Sydney so far this month is less than in January, which just confirms my claims. Also, if you take the temperature 6 months, 3 days, 2 hours, 45 minutes and three seconds ago, and compare it with the temperature right now, and draw a straight line through the two points, then extrapolate that line forwad 3000 years, it proves that the temperature is going to sink below absolute zero.


High school debating trick FD. You are are taking an argument to an illogical extreme in order to discredit it.


Grendel takes it to the extreme with just about every post.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #4 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 9:20am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 21st, 2009 at 6:07pm:
Grendel hasn't started a thread lately, so I thought I would help him out. There was a frost this morning, so global warming must be a myth. Also, the average temperature in Sydney so far this month is less than in January, which just confirms my claims. Also, if you take the temperature 6 months, 3 days, 2 hours, 45 minutes and three seconds ago, and compare it with the temperature right now, and draw a straight line through the two points, then extrapolate that line forwad 3000 years, it proves that the temperature is going to sink below absolute zero.

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #5 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 11:15am
 
Are you flaming me again Skippy?  Shame on you.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

http://www.stevefielding.com.au/forums/viewforum/2/
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« Last Edit: Jun 22nd, 2009 at 11:21am by Grendel »  
 
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skippy
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #6 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 3:36pm
 
Grendel wrote on Jun 22nd, 2009 at 11:15am:
Are you flaming me again Skippy?  Shame on you.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

http://www.stevefielding.com.au/forums/viewforum/2/

If laughing at a post written by the forum owner is flaming you should get your mate mozz onto it. Cry Roll Eyes
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #7 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 6:49pm
 
Oh it is...  but I almost never complain.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #8 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 7:00pm
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNcH9lrQktI


Grin Grin Grin
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #9 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 8:02pm
 
'frost this morning, therefore no global warming'.  Grin

Love that line... Great metaphor for the non sequitur.


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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #10 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 8:30pm
 
So what was that youtube video supposed to prove besides his weather channel having the hottest chicks?

He stated nothing that would/should sway anybody to believe that global warming is a hoax.
"We've been burning fossil fuels for a long time and it hasn't been a big problem", is the only argument that he came up with.
So what's that supposed to prove? Arsenic isn't harmful in small doses,
but drink too much water and it can kill.

That was just a waste of time to watch - excuse me while I watch Southpark for some brain food.



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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #11 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 9:08pm
 
Just one of hundreds of videos Amadd...  this topic is a joke from fd...  don't expect me to waste my time with real debate on it...  but the title of that video was interesting.

I did post a link to fieldings forum, for those interested in learning something and seeing that not everyone agrees with AGW.

But not wasting my time with more when theres just flames from fd and skippalong to contend with.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #12 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 9:18pm
 
Quote:
Just one of hundreds of videos Amadd...  this topic is a joke from fd...


I did it for you Grednel. You haven't come up with one of your own for so long.

Quote:
don't expect me to waste my time with real debate on it...


Never fear Grendel, no-one would expect that from you. After all, you might have to give your own opinion.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #13 - Jun 22nd, 2009 at 10:15pm
 
oh dear still an ignorant liar I see fd...
well at least your leaving your pets alone whilst picking on me.
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skippy
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #14 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 8:54am
 
Grendel wrote on Jun 22nd, 2009 at 6:49pm:
Oh it is...  but I almost never complain.

I can comment on what I like ,you should harden up sweet cheeks.

Moderator - groan -  I suppose I should edit that one out. Is that a gay reference or something?
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« Last Edit: Jun 23rd, 2009 at 4:01pm by muso »  
 
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #15 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 9:22am
 
Pull your head out of your pouch then Skippalong and comment and stop flaming.
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skippy
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #16 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 10:30am
 
Grendel wrote on Jun 23rd, 2009 at 9:22am:
Pull your head out of your pouch then Skippalong and comment and stop flaming.


mozz are you going to let  grendel flame me every time I make comment here?
He is trying to manipulate it so as whenever I make comment on a post that he is wrong about( which is often)he accuses me of flaming.
So far in this thread, I laughed at a freediver comment, grendel flamed me. I then said I'm entitled to comment on any topic I like and he flames me again.
I'm happy for you to do nothing ,which is what you usually do, but I'm not going to let grendel flame me every time I make comment.
Are you capable of moderating without prejudice, because if you're not get out and let someone else have a go before you run off the few remaining posters who didn't leave when you became mod.

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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #17 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 11:07am
 
Boo hoo....  you started it Skippy...  no use crying now sunshine.
BTW anyone reading the topic will see your recollection is wrong.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #18 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 4:02pm
 
Come on kiddies - behave. No name calling or personal attacks. - ok?
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #19 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 8:30pm
 
Grendel accuses me of flaming him all the time too. Just ignore it.

Grendel, are you able to quote a single lie I have told?
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #20 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 10:45pm
 
yep.

Are you saying lies and flames are the same thing?
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #21 - Jun 23rd, 2009 at 10:49pm
 
oh and muso...  as moderator you should delete the whole topic as it was just a flame to start with.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #22 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 8:28am
 
I don't think so. The topic is addressing a common 'confusionalist' argument - we are always going to get short term variations in temperature. It's certainly not  personal.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #23 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 8:34am
 
muso wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 8:28am:
I don't think so. The topic is addressing a common 'confusionalist' argument - we are always going to get short term variations in temperature. It's certainly not  personal.


Like I said it was just debating trick involving taking an argument to an illogical extreme. You could have changed a few words and applied it in just the same way to the warmist postion.
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skippy
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #24 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 8:36am
 
muso wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 8:28am:
I don't think so. The topic is addressing a common 'confusionalist' argument - we are always going to get short term variations in temperature. It's certainly not  personal.

Ha ha ha ha ha "confusionalist" ha ha ha ha ha  
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #25 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 9:47am
 
All this have simple and rational explanation. The environmentalists who peddle "ice age" open their fridge doors while their opponents make lots of hot air.

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עַם יִשְרָאֵל חַי
 
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #26 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 9:58am
 
tallowood wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 9:47am:
All this have simple and rational explanation. The environmentalists who peddle "ice age" open their fridge doors while their opponents make lots of hot air.



Hahahaha - That was a fun movie Tallow. Looks like Ice Age III will be even better.

Enjoy your cocoa.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #27 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 10:19am
 
muso wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 9:58am:
tallowood wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 9:47am:
All this have simple and rational explanation. The environmentalists who peddle "ice age" open their fridge doors while their opponents make lots of hot air.



Hahahaha - That was a fun movie Tallow. Looks like Ice Age III will be even better.

Enjoy your cocoa.


I do, in front of my fireplace, thankfully there is no shortage of firewood here.

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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #28 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 10:57am
 
You don't think so....  you are so hypocritical and disingenuous.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #29 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 3:48pm
 
Grendel wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 10:57am:
You don't think so....  you are so hypocritical and disingenuous.


Thank you.  We all love you too  Grin
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #30 - Jun 26th, 2009 at 10:03pm
 
Quote:
yep


Go on then Grendel, we're waiting.

Quote:
Are you saying lies and flames are the same thing?


What on earth makes you think that?

Quote:
Like I said it was just debating trick involving taking an argument to an illogical extreme.


But Grendel takes it to an illogical extreme all the time. My extreme is no less logical, just more obvious. I tried subtle, but it didn't work. I tried simple and direct, but that didn't work either.

Quote:
You could have changed a few words and applied it in just the same way to the warmist postion.


No you can't. The 'warmists' actually plot the temperature trend. Grendel, and the articles he copies and pastes, tend to pick two numbers and draw a line between them. They avoid showing an actual plot of temperature at all costs, because that would make it plain what an illogical extreme they are taking it to. There are plenty of lunatics pushing silly arguments on both sides. The difference is that in the denialist camp, the confusinalists are pretty much all that are left.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #31 - Jun 26th, 2009 at 10:10pm
 
You just lied again  Cheesy
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #32 - Jun 27th, 2009 at 8:45am
 
So you can't quote an actual lie after all?
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #33 - Jun 27th, 2009 at 10:40am
 
Unfortunately Grendel has Kenny Rogers', "Coward of the County" playing on a continuous loop.

He always refuses to answer any question which may reflect negatively on his self assessed infallibility.

The denialists are having a field day with this whole "cooling" argument.

They say that the trend of the last 15 years is actually cooling, and that is arguably correct, but they never ever wish to see the whole story told, just cherry pick the bit that suits their argument.

So here are a couple of facts about the last 15 years their cooling theory does not mention.

It never mentions that they are measuring from the time that gave us the hottest year ever recorded, and  in the fifteen years, they call a cooling period, we have experienced 10 or 12 of the hottest years ever recorded.

So they prefer the CO2 is the element in the oven argument, and if the oven is heating, then each moment in time will see an increased temperature from the moment before.

If someone opens the door of the oven, they introduce another factor, which sees the oven stop warming, or even lose some heat, but that does not mean the oven has been turned off.

They attempt to have all other weather factors ignored, but that is just your typical denialist blinkered view, and only impresses the simple minded.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #34 - Jun 27th, 2009 at 5:45pm
 
ROTFLMAO

See you in another 10 years...  as it takes that long to make points that you guys will believe...  oh wait...  you still don't believe.

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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #35 - Jun 27th, 2009 at 6:04pm
 
Yes that should suit denialists.
The models predict slight cooling until 2010, then six years of significant rises.

So if you wait until 2019, you can once more say we are cooling, because we probably will be, again temporarily, and again from newly set record highs.

You must feel so proud to be spreading the word.

Mind you, with potential tipping points teetering on the brink, it may already be too late, and you can pat yourself on the back for doing such a good job, confusing cretins
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #36 - Jun 27th, 2009 at 8:12pm
 
well they haven't been right so far Mozz...

keep swallowing it...  you must never have read The Emperors New Clothes...

BTW the only word I'm spreading is man cannot control the climate and we need to be prepared to adapt as we have always done.  I'm also waiting for proof that man made CO2 emissions is creating dangerous warming.  As for the tipping point...  so far it is just another mass hysteria theory.

WHERE IS THE PROOF...?  

Answer...  there is none.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #37 - Jun 27th, 2009 at 8:39pm
 

What is the worst that can happen?

Humans can wipe themselves off the planet (which I doubt), but nature will take care of excessive CO2 levels as it did before, after all pre-industrial CO2 level was 1/1,000-th of level a "while" before that.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #38 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 8:39am
 
[highlight][/What is the worst that can happen?
highlight]

Well happy, I don't think it will be a pleasant experience, and billions will die terrible deaths, if as you say, we do wipe ourselves off the planet.

So when walt disney thaws out in a couple of hundred thousand years he will wake up alone.

Heellllooooo, Heeeeelllllllllllllllooooooooooooo.
Anybody home?

You see denialists are self denying jerks, with a ridiculous propensity for right wing extremism, and a higher than normal probability of believing fundamentalist christian garbage.
It is this link with the wacky bible bashers that has led to such a high degree of trust in the anti-science bulldust that they love.
Lots of 'young earth' believers amongst them, as well as your more traditional "intelligent design" wackjobs, and they always change the parameters of the debate on the run, and just spoil, spoil, spoil.

There is no warming.
There is cooling.
There is warming but it's not our fault/we can't do anything about it.
etc, etc, etc.

You see, these are the wackos that pray for things to get better, but actually try and block "REAL" efforts to make things better, and it is hard to compete with a guy who thinks his imaginary skydaddy will make it all better if he stops masturbating so much.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #39 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 9:47am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jun 28th, 2009 at 8:39am:
[highlight][/What is the worst that can happen?
highlight]

Well happy, I don't think it will be a pleasant experience, and billions will die terrible deaths, if as you say, we do wipe ourselves off the planet.

So when walt disney thaws out in a couple of hundred thousand years he will wake up alone.

Heellllooooo, Heeeeelllllllllllllllooooooooooooo.
Anybody home?

You see denialists are self denying jerks, with a ridiculous propensity for right wing extremism, and a higher than normal probability of believing fundamentalist christian garbage.
It is this link with the wacky bible bashers that has led to such a high degree of trust in the anti-science bulldust that they love.
Lots of 'young earth' believers amongst them, as well as your more traditional "intelligent design" wackjobs, and they always change the parameters of the debate on the run, and just spoil, spoil, spoil.

There is no warming.
There is cooling.
There is warming but it's not our fault/we can't do anything about it.
etc, etc, etc.

You see, these are the wackos that pray for things to get better, but actually try and block "REAL" efforts to make things better, and it is hard to compete with a guy who thinks his imaginary skydaddy will make it all better if he stops masturbating so much.



So how does the taboo on nuclear power in the Church of Environmentalism fit into that?
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #40 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 9:50am
 
Grendel wrote on Jun 27th, 2009 at 8:12pm:
BTW the only word I'm spreading is man cannot control the climate and we need to be prepared to adapt as we have always done.  I'm also waiting for proof that man made CO2 emissions is creating dangerous warming.  As for the tipping point...  so far it is just another mass hysteria theory.


You have to acknowledge that Grendel has made a good point. There is nothing we can do at this stage about controlling the climate so we have to learn quickly how to adapt.

We do know that certain actions of man - such as nuclear bombs and heavy pollution can cause atmospheric changes which probably also affect our weather - but man is not going to change these habits before it becomes too late to do so.

Adapt now by substituting renewables for fossil fuels (better for our health and less pollution) and perhaps begin by creating buildings which will withstand  the more severe temperature extremes, earthquakes, cyclones, rising sea levels etc.

Trying to convince either side of the climate change debate that they are wrong is impossible - so compromise to ensure that we are safeguarded for the future.

We also need to make it mandatory that we clean up after ourselves and dispose of our waste safely whether on land or in the sea. Pollution emitters need to be fined severely, not subsidised.

GROW MORE TREES. They protect us against drought, heat and erosion for a start.



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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #41 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 12:02pm
 
It should be looked on as an opportunity to improve our planet, and our behaviour, and by doing so, our lives, and our childrens' futures.

Just look at who lines up in the denialist front row.
Opinions for sale so cheaply, they become valueless.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #42 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 1:43pm
 
Mozza...  
my comment on your previous rant.  

 Roll Eyes Shocked Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

wacko
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #43 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 1:55pm
 
Yes I know, Grendel, just my paranoid delusions.
I wonder if we polled those here, how many would fall into line?
Right Wing?
Born Again Type?

Unfornately, in the US, where most of this denialist garbage sprang from, there is no shortage of folk that fall into these categories, but fortunately not even all of them fall for the denialist line of bull.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #44 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 2:23pm
 
I think its sad you actually believe it.  Cheesy
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #45 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 3:01pm
 
You saying that you don't fall into that category Grendel?

I know you say you are left wing, but for the sake of argument, we will call you a left winger, who happens to very strongly support many ultra nationalist, right wing opinions, OK?
And if you are trying to tell me you don't get down and dirty with a bit of a "Halleluha", and a "Praise The Lord", then I will accept your word on it.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #46 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 3:44pm
 
Really and what would those opinions be?

I am no way near a right winger and even less a fundamentalist Christian.

Oh dear don't tell me you stereotyped everyone who dissents your opinion of AGW on your pathetic attempt to once more name-call and slander me?  What is the world coming to?

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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #47 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 4:48pm
 
Well I will accept you as the exception to my rule then Grendel.

I just get used to silly right wing bible bashers going for it with their anti-science stuff.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #48 - Jun 28th, 2009 at 6:15pm
 
Quote:
They say that the trend of the last 15 years is actually cooling, and that is arguably correct


I have never seen any attempt by denialists to measure this. It would be a very simple thing to do. Microsoft excel will even do it for you. Last time I checked it out, even if you did cherry pick from the hottest year till now, the trend was still warming.

Quote:
BTW the only word I'm spreading is man cannot control the climate


How odd, Grendel offering up an opinion. I think this might be worth a new thread.

Quote:
I'm also waiting for proof that man made CO2 emissions is creating dangerous warming.


The only way to prove it Grendel is to do an experiment, for example by drastically cutting our CO2 emissions and seeing if the temperature follows suit. Although of course this would still not be absolute proof, as science can never give you absolute proof. Unfortunately for you people have to manage uncertainty, not wait in vain for certainty.

Quote:
Trying to convince either side of the climate change debate that they are wrong is impossible - so compromise to ensure that we are safeguarded for the future.


Not true Mantra. Over the last decade or two, the percentage of our population that falls into the 'denialist' category has fallen from the vast majority to only a small minority that has obvious trouble with the logic in their argument. That is why, rather than mounting a serious argument, just about all we see from the denialist camp these days are various versions of the title of this thread.

Quote:
I am no way near a right winger


So how would you categorise yourself Grendel? Tree hugging hippy?
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #49 - Jun 29th, 2009 at 8:16am
 
Here's a review of Prof Pilmers book. Note Paul Sheehan of the SMH has been promoting AGW in his writings up until now.

Beware the climate of conformity
Paul Sheehan

April 13, 2009

Page 1 of 3

What I am about to write questions much of what I have written in this space, in numerous columns, over the past five years. Perhaps what I have written can withstand this questioning. Perhaps not. The greater question is, am I - and you - capable of questioning our own orthodoxies and intellectual habits? Let's see.

The subject of this column is not small. It is a book entitled Heaven And Earth, which will be published tomorrow. It has been written by one of Australia's foremost Earth scientists, Professor Ian Plimer. He is a confronting sort of individual, polite but gruff, courteous but combative. He can write extremely well, and Heaven And Earth is a brilliantly argued book by someone not intimidated by hostile majorities or intellectual fashions.

The book's 500 pages and 230,000 words and 2311 footnotes are the product of 40 years' research and a depth and breadth of scholarship. As Plimer writes: "An understanding of climate requires an amalgamation of astronomy, solar physics, geology, geochronology, geochemistry, sedimentology, tectonics, palaeontology, palaeoecology, glaciology, climatology, meteorology, oceanography, ecology, archaeology and history."

The most important point to remember about Plimer is that he is Australia's most eminent geologist. As such, he thinks about time very differently from most of us. He takes the long, long view. He looks at climate over geological, archaeological, historical and modern time. He writes: "Past climate changes, sea-level changes and catastrophes are written in stone."

Much of what we have read about climate change, he argues, is rubbish, especially the computer modelling on which much current scientific opinion is based, which he describes as "primitive". Errors and distortions in computer modelling will be exposed in time. (As if on cue, the United Nations' peak scientific body on climate change was obliged to make an embarrassing admission last week that some of its computers models were wrong.)
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #50 - Jun 29th, 2009 at 8:18am
 
Plimer does not dispute the dramatic flux of climate change - and this column is not about Australia's water debate - but he fundamentally disputes most of the assumptions and projections being made about the current causes, mostly led by atmospheric scientists, who have a different perspective on time. "It is little wonder that catastrophist views of the future of the planet fall on fertile pastures. The history of time shows us that depopulation, social disruption, extinctions, disease and catastrophic droughts take place in cold times … and life blossoms and economies boom in warm times. Planet Earth is dynamic. It always changes and evolves. It is currently in an ice age."

If we look at the last 6 million years, the Earth was warmer than it is now for 3 million years. The ice caps of the Arctic, Antarctica and Greenland are geologically unusual. Polar ice has only been present for less than 20 per cent of geological time. What follows is an intense compression of the book's 500 pages and all their provocative arguments and conclusions:

Is dangerous warming occurring? No.

Is the temperature range observed in the 20th century outside the range of normal variability? No.

The Earth's climate is driven by the receipt and redistribution of solar energy. Despite this crucial relationship, the sun tends to be brushed aside as the most important driver of climate. Calculations on supercomputers are primitive compared with the complex dynamism of the Earth's climate and ignore the crucial relationship between climate and solar energy.

"To reduce modern climate change to one variable, CO2, or a small proportion of one variable - human-induced CO2 - is not science. To try to predict the future based on just one variable (CO2) in extraordinarily complex natural systems is folly. Yet when astronomers have the temerity to show that climate is driven by solar activities rather than CO2 emissions, they are dismissed as dinosaurs undertaking the methods of old-fashioned science." Continued...

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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #51 - Jun 29th, 2009 at 8:20am
 
Over time, the history of CO2 content in the atmosphere has been far higher than at present for most of time. Atmospheric CO2 follows temperature rise. It does not create a temperature rise. CO2 is not a pollutant. Global warming and a high CO2 content bring prosperity and longer life.

The hypothesis that human activity can create global warming is extraordinary because it is contrary to validated knowledge from solar physics, astronomy, history, archaeology and geology. "But evidence no longer matters. And any contrary work published in peer-reviewed journals is just ignored. We are told that the science on human-induced global warming is settled. Yet the claim by some scientists that the threat of human-induced global warming is 90 per cent certain (or even 99 per cent) is a figure of speech. It has no mathematical or evidential basis."

Observations in nature differ markedly from the results generated by nearly two dozen computer-generated climate models. These climate models exaggerate the effects of human CO2 emissions into the atmosphere because few of the natural variables are considered. Natural systems are far more complex than computer models.

The setting up by the UN of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change in 1988 gave an opportunity to make global warming the main theme of environmental groups. "The IPCC process is related to environmental activism, politics and opportunism. It is unrelated to science. Current zeal around human-induced climate change is comparable to the certainty professed by Creationists or religious fundamentalists."

Ian Plimer is not some isolated gadfly. He is a prize-winning scientist and professor. The back cover of Heaven And Earth carries a glowing endorsement from the President of the Czech Republic, Vaclav Klaus, who now holds the rotating presidency of the European Union. Numerous rigorous scientists have joined Plimer in dissenting from the prevailing orthodoxy.

Heaven And Earth is an evidence-based attack on conformity and orthodoxy, including my own, and a reminder to respect informed dissent and beware of ideology subverting evidence.

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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #52 - Jun 29th, 2009 at 9:13am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jun 28th, 2009 at 1:55pm:
Yes I know, Grendel, just my paranoid delusions.
I wonder if we polled those here, how many would fall into line?
Right Wing?
Born Again Type?

Unfortunately, in the US, where most of this denialist garbage sprang from, there is no shortage of folk that fall into these categories, but fortunately not even all of them fall for the denialist line of bull.

This is so right, Fielding is a bible basher, climate confusionalist,and all round dangerous dude. I think these confusionalist bible bashers should be rounded up and kept in a safe place away from the mainstream population, they are as dangerous as any terrorist,in my opinion worse than terrorists.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #53 - Jun 29th, 2009 at 12:04pm
 
Plimer's book would be good if it were true.

What the reviewer doesn't mention is that there has been a virtual avalanche of reviews by leading scientists, and they all say very similar things about it.

- and they are not impressed. The errors are fundamental, and the treament of astronomy is bizarre to put it mildly.

This guy is well past his use-by date. His ideas are decidedly "on the nose".

If he's right, we'll have to change most of the laws of physics for a start.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #54 - Jun 29th, 2009 at 1:58pm
 
PJ, that so-called 'expert' doesn't have a clue.

Quote:
but he fundamentally disputes most of the assumptions and projections being made about the current causes, mostly led by atmospheric scientists, who have a different perspective on time. "It is little wonder that catastrophist views of the future of the planet fall on fertile pastures. The history of time shows us that depopulation, social disruption, extinctions, disease and catastrophic droughts take place in cold times
…

Odd for someone who bleats on about time scales to put social disruption in there with extinction.

Quote:
Planet Earth is dynamic. It always changes and evolves. It is currently in an ice age."


No it isn't.

Quote:
The Earth's climate is driven by the receipt and redistribution of solar energy.


If it wasn't for the greenhouse effect the whole planet would be below freezing point.

Quote:
Despite this crucial relationship, the sun tends to be brushed aside as the most important driver of climate.


No it isn't. It is a crucial part of the theory. For someone who claims to have a valid scientific criticism of climate change theory he shows remarkanly little understanding of it.

Quote:
"To reduce modern climate change to one variable, CO2, or a small proportion of one variable - human-induced CO2 - is not science.


Saying that the greenhouse effect influences climate is not the same thing as saying that it is the only factor that drives climate. Plimer completely misrepresents climate change theory by suggesting that the sun is brushed aside. He is building a giant strawman.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #55 - Jun 29th, 2009 at 3:07pm
 
A recent comment by Professor Kurt Lambeck, president of the Australian Academy of Science sums it up nicely:

If this had been written by an honours student, I would have failed it with the comment: You have obviously trawled through a lot of material but the critical analysis is missing. Supporting arguments and unsupported arguments in the literature are not distinguished or properly referenced, and you have left the impression that you have not developed an understanding of the processes involved. Rewrite!

I would then identify a number of specific issues which, while in isolation could be seen as minor, collectively indicate carelessness at best, and at worst an attempt to undermine the integrity of the science case.....
........................
....The science community has the responsibility to provide the best evidence to help our policymakers reach conclusions that are founded in science, that are based on our best current understanding. This is in the interests of society as a whole, not only of particular interest groups. Spreading confusion through poorly argued science does not help in addressing this question.

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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #56 - Jun 29th, 2009 at 6:00pm
 
http://sciencespeak.com/

No evidence....  Grin
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #57 - Jun 29th, 2009 at 6:33pm
 
Grendel wrote on Jun 29th, 2009 at 6:00pm:
http://sciencespeak.com/

No evidence....  Grin


Dave needs to learn the basics too.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #58 - Jun 29th, 2009 at 6:59pm
 
ROTFLMAO...
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #59 - Jun 30th, 2009 at 2:30pm
 
Grendel wrote on Jun 29th, 2009 at 6:59pm:
ROTFLMAO...

- and get a real job. You see, there is overwhelming evidence.

- I'll let Google take over for once. This site explains it as well as I can:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/empirical-evidence-for-global-warming.htm

Quote:
Expected warming

Many lines of evidence show that the Earth has in fact warmed by an amount consistent with theory. Some aspects of the warming are unique to CO2 warming - the carbon "fingerprint".

    * Surface weather station measurements
    * Satellite measurements show that the troposphere is warming
    * The stratosphere is cooling as predicted by anthropogenic global warming theory (this cannot be explained by solar variability)
    * Temperatures at the ocean surface and at various ocean depths show warming as far down as 1500 meters
    * Sea level rise
    * Gravitometric measurements of Greenland and Antarctica show net ice loss
    * Sea-ice loss in the Arctic is dramatically accelerating
    * Acceleration of glaciers in Greenland and Antarctica, particularly within the last few years.
    * The rise of the tropopause
    * Poleward migration of species
    * Increased intensity of hurricanes as expected from rising sea surface temperatures
    * Accelerating decline of glaciers throughout the world
    * Rise in temperatures at greater depths in the permafrost
    * Rapid expansion of thermokarst lakes throughout parts of Siberia, Canada and Alaska
    * Changes in ocean circulation as predicted by climate models, for example, with temperatures rising more quickly overland
    * Disintegration of permafrost coastlines in the arctic
    * Changes in the altitude of the stratosphere
    * An energy imbalance - the earth is receiving more energy than it emits (Hansen 2005)
    * Poleward movement of the jet streams (Archer 2008, Seidel 2007, Fu 2006)
    * Widening of the tropical belt (Seidel 2007, Fu 2006)
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #60 - Jun 30th, 2009 at 2:45pm
 
Some more 'no evidence'. It's not the sun, guys 

Ammann 2007: "Although solar and volcanic effects appear to dominate most of the slow climate variations within the past thousand years, the impacts of greenhouse gases have dominated since the second half of the last century."

Lockwood 2007 concludes "the observed rapid rise in global mean temperatures seen after 1985 cannot be ascribed to solar variability, whichever of the mechanism is invoked and no matter how much the solar variation is amplified."

Foukal 2006 concludes "The variations measured from spacecraft since 1978 are too small to have contributed appreciably to accelerated global warming over the past 30 years."

Scafetta 2006 says "since 1975 global warming has occurred much faster than could be reasonably expected from the sun alone."

Usoskin 2005 conclude "during these last 30 years the solar total irradiance, solar UV irradiance and cosmic ray flux has not shown any significant secular trend, so that at least this most recent warming episode must have another source."

Solanki 2004 reconstructs 11,400 years of sunspot numbers using radiocarbon concentrations, finding "solar variability is unlikely to have been the dominant cause of the strong warming during the past three decades".

Haigh 2003 says "Observational data suggest that the Sun has influenced temperatures on decadal, centennial and millennial time-scales, but radiative forcing considerations and the results of energy-balance models and general circulation models suggest that the warming during the latter part of the 20th century cannot be ascribed entirely to solar effects."

Stott 2003 increased climate model sensitivity to solar forcing and still found "most warming over the last 50 yr is likely to have been caused by increases in greenhouse gases."

Solanki 2003 concludes "the Sun has contributed less than 30% of the global warming since 1970".

Lean 1999 concludes "it is unlikely that Sun–climate relationships can account for much of the warming since 1970".

Waple 1999 finds "little evidence to suggest that changes in irradiance are having a large impact on the current warming trend."

Frolich 1998 concludes "solar radiative output trends contributed little of the 0.2°C increase in the global mean surface temperature in the past decade"
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #61 - Jun 30th, 2009 at 6:18pm
 
When are you going to answer my question?

Or should I assume that you think the Sun is the Primary Driver of climate  and that is why youre obsessed with posting anti-solar quotes?

ROTFLMAO

Oh and while we are at it why pick on CO2 increase when the decrease in Sulphates in the atmosphere over the same period is available to hang a THEORY on.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

hey you could start another environmental religion based on that theory.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #62 - Jun 30th, 2009 at 9:09pm
 
Grendel, no single gas is being 'picked on'. The scientists merely go where the evidence leads - hence the term greenhouse gasses. This includes a variety of gasses. Methane is also a major contributor.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #63 - Jun 30th, 2009 at 9:54pm
 
No single gas is being "picked on'?  Excuse me.

Is not AGW being blamed on man made CO2 emissions?

have I been imagining things?   Cheesy

Isn't the solution being touted...  reducing emissions of that one gas?  Isn't the carbon tax and caps aimed at one gas?  Roll Eyes
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #64 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 12:53am
 
Actually Grendel, "man made" CO2 has been identified as the one we can most readily address.

Remember Rightsaidfred, from cracker?
Remember when he said that of course we would eventually stuff up this planet, but by that time, scientists will have invented rockets so we can colonise other planets?

Your attitude to global warming reminds me of that.
You deride, and doubt, the leading scientists, but say that if they are right, they will figure a way for us to adapt anyway.

You don't believe they can identify a problem they have studied for decades, but you think they can create magic solutions when their advice is ignored.

It seems your faith in their abilities is topsy turvy.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #65 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 2:10am
 
Your sounding a bit confused Mozz.
Not as confused as fd though.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #66 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 7:08am
 
Grendel wrote on Jun 30th, 2009 at 6:18pm:
When are you going to answer my question?

Or should I assume that you think the Sun is the Primary Driver of climate  and that is why youre obsessed with posting anti-solar quotes?



Speaking simplistically, the sun is what makes it hot, but I don't think anyone on this forum would be so stupid as to just leave it there.

Read the citations from the peer reviewed papers on that list, especially the one from Sami Solanki.

The main message is that changes in global temperature in the last 30 years cannot be attributed to changes in solar output as measured from Low Earth Orbit - the most logical place to measure it from.

Variations in solar irradiance can not be the cause of the observed increase in temperatures over the last 30 years. That's not propaganda, that's the conclusion of about 20 studies that I quoted for you.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #67 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 7:12am
 
Grendel wrote on Jun 30th, 2009 at 9:54pm:
No single gas is being "picked on'?  Excuse me.

Is not AGW being blamed on man made CO2 emissions?

have I been imagining things?   Cheesy

Isn't the solution being touted...  reducing emissions of that one gas?  Isn't the carbon tax and caps aimed at one gas?  Roll Eyes


You've been reading sites that are providing strawman positions such as you quoted. Other greenhouse gases also cause warming through the greenhouse effect. Methane is about 20 times as potent as CO2. Fortunately there is far less methane in the atmosphere than CO2.

To say that it's just CO2 is a simplification. It's a bit more complicated than that. For reporting purpose, we use CO2 equivalents. I'm just going through that process right now at work.

Here:
http://www.climatechange.gov.au/reporting/report.html#threshold

Notice that The NGER require a threshold defined by 'greenhouse gases'

They talk about CO2 equivalents too.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #68 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 7:41am
 
muso wrote on Jul 1st, 2009 at 7:08am:
Grendel wrote on Jun 30th, 2009 at 6:18pm:
When are you going to answer my question?

Or should I assume that you think the Sun is the Primary Driver of climate  and that is why youre obsessed with posting anti-solar quotes?



Speaking simplistically, the sun is what makes it hot, but I don't think anyone on this forum would be so stupid as to just leave it there.

Read the citations from the peer reviewed papers on that list, especially the one from Sami Solanki.

The main message is that changes in global temperature in the last 30 years cannot be attributed to changes in solar output as measured from Low Earth Orbit - the most logical place to measure it from.

Variations in solar irradiance can not be the cause of the observed increase in temperatures over the last 30 years. That's not propaganda, that's the conclusion of about 20 studies that I quoted for you.


Didn't Sami Solanki say the Sun could be responsible for up to 30% of the warming since 1970?
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #69 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 9:36am
 
So is that your answer to my question?

"The Sun is what makes it hot"  therefore the Sun is THE primary driver of climate on this planet?
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #70 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 9:57am
 
pjb05 wrote on Jul 1st, 2009 at 7:41am:
muso wrote on Jul 1st, 2009 at 7:08am:
Grendel wrote on Jun 30th, 2009 at 6:18pm:
When are you going to answer my question?

Or should I assume that you think the Sun is the Primary Driver of climate  and that is why youre obsessed with posting anti-solar quotes?



Speaking simplistically, the sun is what makes it hot, but I don't think anyone on this forum would be so stupid as to just leave it there.

Read the citations from the peer reviewed papers on that list, especially the one from Sami Solanki.

The main message is that changes in global temperature in the last 30 years cannot be attributed to changes in solar output as measured from Low Earth Orbit - the most logical place to measure it from.

Variations in solar irradiance can not be the cause of the observed increase in temperatures over the last 30 years. That's not propaganda, that's the conclusion of about 20 studies that I quoted for you.


Didn't Sami Solanki say the Sun could be responsible for up to 30% of the warming since 1970?


That quote is inaccurate. I already linked to his personal web page. As a reminder, this is what he said:

A misleading account of my views was published in the Toronto National Post in March, 2007 (and is to be found at different places on the web). In contrast to what is written there I am not a denier of global warming produced by an increase in the concentration of greenhouse gases. Already at present the overwhelming source of global warming is due to manmade greenhouse gases and their influence will continue to grow in the future as their concentration increases....


http://www.mps.mpg.de/homes/solanki/

Again, it was a question of semantics and a remark taken out of context.

He actually clarified his initial remark by issuing this statement:

Quote:
since about 1980, while the total solar radiation, its ultraviolet component, and the cosmic ray intensity all exhibit the 11-year solar periodicity, there has otherwise been no significant increase in their values. In contrast, the Earth has warmed up considerably within this time period. This means that the Sun is not the cause of the present global warming.


If you want me to clarify the context of the '30%' figure further, I shall do. It was an over-cautious public statement that backfired when some professional confusionalists got hold of it. When issuing press statements, scientists tend to be over cautious.

He could have said 'at least 90% of the warming effect is not due to solar variation'. Instead he said that no more than 30% was due to the sun. He was being deliberately conservative about the results of his research.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #71 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 10:05am
 
Haven't created any strawmen Muso...  unlike yourself.
You're starting to come unravelled.

So can I quote you as saying the Sun is the Primary Driver of climate?  Or are you still trying to dissemble.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #72 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 10:09am
 
Grendel wrote on Jul 1st, 2009 at 9:36am:
So is that your answer to my question?

"The Sun is what makes it hot"  therefore the Sun is THE primary driver of climate on this planet?


It's good to get back to basics sometimes. Grendel, if the Earth had no atmosphere, then the activity of the sun would be about the only thing that would determine the surface temperature at any location on Earth.

However the Earth does have an atmosphere! You can't see it, but it's there, and all those nice fluffy clouds that you see in the sky are neutrally buoyant floating around in our atmosphere air that we breath.

So you can see that there are at least
two
things that affect how
hot
or how
cold
it is.
...

...

Next week we'll talk about how the Atmosphere has changed.

Disclaimer: Atmosphere is a big word. I'm sorry if I scared you using big words.

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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #73 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 10:54am
 
Who read them to you Muso?

Don't worry...  one day you'll catch up  Grin Grin Grin
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #74 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 11:06am
 
Grendel wrote on Jul 1st, 2009 at 10:05am:
Haven't created any strawmen Muso...  unlike yourself.
You're starting to come unravelled.

So can I quote you as saying the Sun is the Primary Driver of climate?  Or are you still trying to dissemble.


Correct me if I am wrong but I am pretty sure that Muso has agreed with that statement, that "the Sun is the Primary Driver of the climate."

He has added qualifiers that I admit you did not ask for, but essentially he has answered your question many times over Grendel.

Now, what exactly are you trying to confirm or deny by this point?

This is just a starting point and of itself shows nothing that the sun is an energy source.


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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #75 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 11:08am
 
Well if you can actually pinpoint where he said that amongst the "flotsam and jetsam" of his posts that'd be good.

I keep asking he keeps blustering.

Can I quote you to him as having that understanding from his posts?
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #76 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 12:57pm
 
Of course. I'm sure he will correct me if I'm wrong.

The admission proves nothing without further qualification though in my opinion. By itself an innocuous truism.

But if muso does agree, what is your next point?

He at least has gone part way to discussing the next step, because he is assuming what you are implying or the direction you will take this agreement.

Take the assumption away and provide the next part of your argument.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #77 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 1:05pm
 
locutius wrote on Jul 1st, 2009 at 12:57pm:
Take the assumption away and provide the next part of your argument.


He doesn't have a 'next part'
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #78 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 6:44pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2009 at 1:58pm:
PJ, that so-called 'expert' doesn't have a clue.


Quote:
Planet Earth is dynamic. It always changes and evolves. It is currently in an ice age."


No it isn't.



Really FD?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

Since the Earth has significant continental glaciation in the Arctic and Antarctic, we are currently in a glacial minimum of a glaciation. Such a period between glacial maxima is known as an interglacial.

The Earth has been in an interglacial period known as the Holocene for more than 11,000 years. It was conventional wisdom that "the typical interglacial period lasts about 12,000 years," but this has been called into question recently.

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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #79 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 6:48pm
 
yawn...  see can't bring himself to say it.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #80 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 8:54pm
 
pjb05 wrote on Jul 1st, 2009 at 6:44pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2009 at 1:58pm:
PJ, that so-called 'expert' doesn't have a clue.


Quote:
Planet Earth is dynamic. It always changes and evolves. It is currently in an ice age."


No it isn't.



Really FD?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

Since the Earth has significant continental glaciation in the Arctic and Antarctic, we are currently in a glacial minimum of a glaciation. Such a period between glacial maxima is known as an interglacial.

The Earth has been in an interglacial period known as the Holocene for more than 11,000 years. It was conventional wisdom that "the typical interglacial period lasts about 12,000 years," but this has been called into question recently.



pb - er -sorry to piss on your parade, but an interglacial is not an Ice Age, mate  Grin

I can tell you that with some degree of authority, since I minored in Geology a million years ago  Cheesy
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #81 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 9:20pm
 
Yes and Pilmer is a Professor in Geology. How about this then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Age

The general term "ice age" or, more precisely, "glacial age" denotes a geological period of long-term reduction in the temperature of the Earth's surface and atmosphere, resulting in an expansion of continental ice sheets, polar ice sheets and alpine glaciers. Within a long-term ice age, individual pulses of extra cold climate are termed "glaciations". Glaciologically, ice age implies the presence of extensive ice sheets in the northern and southern hemispheres;[1] by this definition we are still in an ice age (because the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets still exist).[2]

1. J. Imbrie and K.P.Imbrie, Ice Ages: Solving the Mystery (Short Hills NJ: Enslow Publishers) 1979.
2.  J. Gribbin, Future weather (New York: Penguin) 1982.

PS: there are numerous similar references on the net.


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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #82 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 9:59pm
 
pjb05 wrote on Jul 1st, 2009 at 6:44pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2009 at 1:58pm:
PJ, that so-called 'expert' doesn't have a clue.


Quote:
Planet Earth is dynamic. It always changes and evolves. It is currently in an ice age."


No it isn't.



Really FD?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

Since the Earth has significant continental glaciation in the Arctic and Antarctic, we are currently in a glacial minimum of a glaciation. Such a period between glacial maxima is known as an interglacial.

The Earth has been in an interglacial period known as the Holocene for more than 11,000 years. It was conventional wisdom that "the typical interglacial period lasts about 12,000 years," but this has been called into question recently.



Yes really PJ. Interglacial does not mean ice age. Temperature wise, we are roughly halfway between a hot spell and and ice age.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #83 - Jul 2nd, 2009 at 9:46am
 
Ice Age is an ambiguous term. In Geology, we usually talk about glaciations. In many different disciplines, we talk about the last Ice Age, which ended around 11,000 years ago, depending on which part of the world you are referring to.

There are plenty of references to the 'Last Ice Age" on the web, and here are some examples (The last one being from Columbia University):

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2007/September/27090702.asp

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2004/06/10/1128898.htm
http://www.earthinstitute.columbia.edu/news/story0_1.html

Even in Geology, it is common to talk about the last 30 Million years or so as a 'Cycle of Ice Ages'.

To use the term 'Ice Age' in a book designed for the public would generally require some explanation.  Even a Geologist reading that text would find a problem with it.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #84 - Jul 2nd, 2009 at 10:06am
 
This is probably a bit simplistic but we have found so many lost cities over the last century or so and we know they have been destroyed or buried by weather changes. They thrived before the age of technology and carbon emissions.

Quote:
Many cities have been destroyed by natural disasters and rebuilt, sometimes repeatedly. But in other cases the destruction has been so complete that the sites were abandoned completely. Classic examples include the Roman cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum, buried with many of their inhabitants under a thick layer of volcanic ash after an eruption of Vesuvius.

A lesser known example is Akrotiri, on the island of Thera, where in 1967, under a blanket of ash, the remains of a Minoan city were discovered. The volcanic explosion on Thera was immense, and had disastrous effects on the Minoan civilization. It has been suggested that this disaster was the inspiration that Plato used for the story of Atlantis.

Less dramatic examples of the destruction of cities by natural forces are those where the coastline has eroded away. Cities which have sunk into the sea include the one-time centre of the English wool-trade, at Dunwich, England, and the city of Rungholt in Germany which sank into the North Sea during a massive storm surge in 1362.
Wiki


I live about a km from the sea - yet I am always finding shells surfacing in my garden. A mountainous area about 12 km inland from where I live not long ago discovered ancient fish fossils at the top of the mountains indicating that the area was once covered in water. How do we explain these buried cities and marine fossils millions of years old?
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #85 - Jul 2nd, 2009 at 11:30am
 
mantra wrote on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 10:06am:
This is probably a bit simplistic but we have found so many lost cities over the last century or so and we know they have been destroyed or buried by weather changes. They thrived before the age of technology and carbon emissions.

Quote:
Many cities have been destroyed by natural disasters and rebuilt, sometimes repeatedly. But in other cases the destruction has been so complete that the sites were abandoned completely. Classic examples include the Roman cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum, buried with many of their inhabitants under a thick layer of volcanic ash after an eruption of Vesuvius.

A lesser known example is Akrotiri, on the island of Thera, where in 1967, under a blanket of ash, the remains of a Minoan city were discovered. The volcanic explosion on Thera was immense, and had disastrous effects on the Minoan civilization. It has been suggested that this disaster was the inspiration that Plato used for the story of Atlantis.

Less dramatic examples of the destruction of cities by natural forces are those where the coastline has eroded away. Cities which have sunk into the sea include the one-time centre of the English wool-trade, at Dunwich, England, and the city of Rungholt in Germany which sank into the North Sea during a massive storm surge in 1362.
Wiki


I live about a km from the sea - yet I am always finding shells surfacing in my garden. A mountainous area about 12 km inland from where I live not long ago discovered ancient fish fossils at the top of the mountains indicating that the area was once covered in water. How do we explain these buried cities and marine fossils millions of years old?


Mantra,

The reason we find shells inland are varied. Most landmasses are constantly shifting .

It's perfectly true that conditions in the Geological past were warmer, and that atmospheric CO2 levels were higher than today. Nobody disputes that.

It's also true that there was practically no ice cover at the poles for extended periods in Geological history.

In terms of today's crisis, this is all cold comfort. The main problem, as I've repeated time and time again, is the fact that we're heading into a major human catastrophe as a result of the fact that unlike these past episodes, we actually have people and cities on Earth. It can be simply bad, or it can be catastrophic, depending on what action the world's governments take.

By the way, you can also find marine fossils in the alps and Mount Everest. To explain mountain building or orogeny in a single post is not possible. This Wikipedia article seems accurate enough at first glance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orogeny

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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #86 - Jul 2nd, 2009 at 4:37pm
 
Of course the starting point of a plot can affect a trend, a criticism of the 'no warming since 1998' claim. But what if we look back much further? What's the trend here?
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #87 - Jul 2nd, 2009 at 4:43pm
 
Figure 1 Example of regional variations in surface air temperature for the last 1000 years, estimated from a variety of sources, including temperature-sensitive tree growth indices and written records of various kinds, largely from western Europe and eastern North America. Shown are changes in regional temperature in° C, from the baseline value for 1900. Compiled by R. S. Bradley and J. A. Eddy based on J. T. Houghton et al., Climate Change: The IPCC Assessment, Cambridge UniversityPress, Cambridge, 1990 and published in EarthQuest, vol 5, no 1, 1991.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #88 - Jul 2nd, 2009 at 7:31pm
 
Thanks for the plot PJ.

So what does that plot look like if you add the most recent measurements on?
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #89 - Jul 5th, 2009 at 12:23pm
 
http://www.27bslash6.com/professorthomas.html

"Every year they say it's global warming, but then three months later it gets cold again. At first I'm noticing a change where it's warmer and the days are longer, and I think they're onto something, but then after a while I realize the days aren't getting longer and warmer, they're actually getting shorter and colder. It's like every year we almost get global warming but we JUST missed it!".
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #90 - Jul 5th, 2009 at 3:50pm
 
pjb05 wrote on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 4:37pm:
Of course the starting point of a plot can affect a trend, a criticism of the 'no warming since 1998' claim. But what if we look back much further? What's the trend here?



PJ - mate your data is seriously outdated. The source of that data comes from 1990 - 29 years ago. The HH Lamb data. We've moved on from there.

If you have 5 minutes spare, please watch this video then be ashamed. Be very ashamed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrKfz8NjEzU&feature=related
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #91 - Jul 5th, 2009 at 3:52pm
 
ROTFLMAO

And the hadcrut data you posted shows a definite roll off since '98
be ashamed be very ashamed. Grin Grin Grin
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #92 - Jul 5th, 2009 at 4:03pm
 
Grendel - shhh - pjb and I are having a serious discussion.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #93 - Jul 5th, 2009 at 4:18pm
 
muso wrote on Jul 5th, 2009 at 3:50pm:
pjb05 wrote on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 4:37pm:
Of course the starting point of a plot can affect a trend, a criticism of the 'no warming since 1998' claim. But what if we look back much further? What's the trend here?



PJ - mate your data is seriously outdated. The source of that data comes from 1990 - 29 years ago. The HH Lamb data. We've moved on from there.

If you have 5 minutes spare, please watch this video then be ashamed. Be very ashamed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrKfz8NjEzU&feature=related


Whilst I agree with the rest muso, 1990 was only 19 years ago.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #94 - Jul 5th, 2009 at 4:22pm
 
Alarmists have a tendency to exaggerate Skip...  good find BTW  Grin

hey look more graphs...

http://icecap.us/images/uploads/monckton-global_warming_has_stopped.pdf.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #95 - Jul 6th, 2009 at 6:51am
 
Well who would have guessed, discredited buffoons citeing more discredited buffoons as validation for rehashing diiscredited BS.

Sounds like the denialist merry go round.
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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #96 - Jul 6th, 2009 at 9:07am
 
Some have moved on from there Muso. The hockey stick has been resurected I know, my none other than Mann himself! The audio didn't work when I tried to play it so I am not hanging head in shame yet. Here Mann responds to criticism of his work from a Canadian journalist. It's an amazing string of ad hominen attacks:

Fossil fuel industry shill Solomon continues to lie to public

Comment by Michael E. Mann, Director, Earth System Science Center, Penn State


In his latest piece in the tabloid the National Post, Mr. Lawrence Solomon, a widely recognized purveyor of fossil fuel-funded disinformation, continues to use the forum provided to him by the Post to spread lies about scientists and scientific research in the area of global climate change.

Doing the bidding of the fossil fuel industry that financially supports his disinformation efforts, Mr. Lawrence  repeatedly lies about my work, the work of my colleagues, the findings of the scientific community, and even the judgments of the world’s leading scientific organizations and journals.Mr Lawrence full well knows, for example, that my own work on paleoclimate reconstructions from more than a decade ago has been reproduced by many groups, and vindicated in a report by the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, and even more recently, in the fourth assessment report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (for a lay-person’s guide to this report, you might check out my recent book Dire Predictions: Understanding Global Warming published by DK/Pearson). Mr. Lawrence disingenuously implies otherwise by citing a partisan attack several years ago by Joe Barton, the leading recipient of fossil fuel industry money in the U.S. House of Representatives (and who is often referred to as “smokey Joe Barton” for his support of industry’s right to pollute our environment).

Barton’s attacks were decried by newspapers editorials around the world, which likened it to a modern-day McCarthyism, using word’s like “witch hunt” and “inquisition.” The discredited Barton attacks were dismissed by organizations like the American Association of the Advancement of Science, which dismissed the attacks as an attempt to intimidate scientists whose findings may prove troublesome to industry special interests.

The National Academy of Sciences responded by performing a legitimate scientific review of my findings and similar work by others in the scientific community, and the academy endorsed or key findings, noting that a host of additional studies since have confirmed them. The media reported the NAS findings as “Science Panel Backs Study on Warming Climate” (New York Times), “Backing for Hockey Stick Graph (BBC), and so on.

Mr Solomon of course knows about all of this, but still chooses to mislead and lie to his readers. His statements about our current study in ‘Nature’ (which from his article you’d think I was the sole author -- in fact, I was only the 4th in a team of 6 co-authors) which studies the long-term warming of Antarctica and its causes, are unusually disingenuous and specious.

As described in detail elsewhere (e.g. the website “RealClimate.org” which I co-founded), our latest study is not contradicted by weather records at all, despite Mr. Solomon’s dishonest attempt to imply otherwise by misrepresenting and cherry-picking anecdotal observations.

Our study reproduces the well known cooling of the Antarctic interior which took place during the 1970s through 1990s (and is believed to be, as confirmed by our study, due to stratospheric ozone depletion which was greatest over that particular time interval). However, by combining the available temperature observations, we show that the longer-term pattern for Antarctica on the whole is one of warming, and this is consistent with the expected response to the long-term increase in greenhouse gas concentrations. Finally, Mr Lawrence goes on to attack the journal Nature.

Gee, who should we trust here? The most dishonest industry advocate in the climate change debate, or the world’s most prestigious peer-reviewed scientific journal. You be the judge.

How ironic that Mr Lawrence uses the word “shame” in his disinformation piece. For he is perhaps the most shameful and dishonest actors in the climate change disinformation machine. Some people indeed have no shame. Nonetheless, in Mr Solomon’s case, the judgment of history will be his condemnation.

Google News
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #97 - Jul 6th, 2009 at 9:09am
 
Mann-made science does not support the hypothesis that global warming is man-made
By Lawrence Solomon


A good scientist, like a good journalist, checks his facts, if for no other reason than to spare himself embarrassment and to immunize himself from charges that he’s casual with the truth, lazy or just plain dishonest. Michael Mann has not checked his facts.

Mann’s article has two main thrusts. First, he attempts to discredit me and others who have criticized his work. Then, he attempts to defend his reputation by claims that distinguished authorities, especially the National Academy of Sciences, have endorsed his hockey stick graph. His graph is an icon in the global warming debate: It convinced the press and the public that 1998 was the hottest year of the hottest decade of the hottest century of the last 1,000 years, creating the belief that Earth was changing dangerously for the worse.Let me deal in chronological order with Mann’s attempts to discredit those he perceives to be his critics.

Mann calls the National Post a tabloid, presumably because tabloids have a reputation for sensationalism. The Post is not a tabloid; it is a broadsheet, and a fine one at that, considered by many to be Canada’s best newspaper.

Mann claims I am funded by the fossil-fuel industry. I am not and neither is Energy Probe Research Foundation, the federally registered charitable organization that I helped found in 1980 and that I have represented continually since. There is a good reason the energy industry does not fund Energy Probe: Over the decades, Energy Probe has been Canada’s chief critic of the energy industry, more responsible than any other organization for stopping ill-advised energy pipelines, coal plants, tar sands projects, nuclear plants and large hydro dams.

Energy Probe is a leading promoter of conservation and alternate energy, and it prides itself on being non-partisan — parties of all stripes in Canada, from the leftist New Democratic Party to the centrist Liberal party to the right-leaning Conservative party, have invited Energy Probe to their gatherings, and adopted its positions.

Mann also attacks Joe Barton, in 2006 the head of the Energy and Commerce Committee in the U.S. House of Representatives. The “Barton attacks” he refers to concern hearings this committee held to discover whether Mann’s hockey stick graph was the product of sound science, as Mann claimed, or a statistical sham, as his critics claimed. The person commissioned to ascertain the truth was Edward Wegman, one of America’s finest scientists and, ironically, the past chairman of the Committee on Applied and Theoretical Statistics of the National Academy of Sciences, the very body that Mann cites as supporting his work.

Wegman assembled a panel of blue-chip statisticians, all of whom worked pro bono for the Barton committee, and for good measure the panel subjected its work to top level reviewers, such as the Board of the American Statistical Association. The Wegman panel’s findings? Mann’s critics were entirely in the right, Mann lacked the statistical knowledge to do the work he had taken on, and Mann’s work had not been subjected to a credible peer-review process.

When Mann cites the support of the National Academy of Sciences, he is not referring to Wegman’s findings but those of another NAS panel, this one headed by another top statistician, Gerald North. The so-called “support” that the NAS panel provided to Mann would mortify many in Mann’s position.

The NAS did find some of Mann’s work “plausible” — that’s the closest that it comes to actually supporting Mann’s findings — but then it immediately states there are so many scientific uncertainties attached to Mann’s work that it doesn’t have great confidence in it. The committee then proceeds to further downgrade its view of Mann’s work: “Even less confidence can be placed in the original conclusions by Mann et al. (1999) that ‘the 1990s are likely the warmest decade, and 1998 the warmest year, in at least a millennium.’ ”

In short, Mann’s main conclusions are not to be believed.

Why not? Because “Mann et al. used a type of principal component analysis that tends to bias the shape of the reconstructions” and because he downplayed the “uncertainties of the published reconstructions.” And, the NAS added, because of what Mann did not do — he did not let others examine his data for accuracy and he did not reveal his analytic methods. For this, the NAS rightly chastised Mann: “Our view is that all research benefits from full and open access to published data-sets and that a clear explanation of analytical methods is mandatory. Peers should have access to the information needed to reproduce published results, so that increased confidence in the outcome of the study can be generated inside and outside the scientific community.”

Conclusion about the hockey stick graph: Mann-made science does not support the hypothesis that global warming is man-made.

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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #98 - Jul 6th, 2009 at 9:10am
 
Conclusion about the new study on Antarctica: The verdict is not yet in, although since the time of writing last week, the prospects for Mann et al. have gone from bad to worse. An embarrassing data error has come to light with the study, charges of unethical behaviour involving Mann’s supporters now appear all over the blogosphere, Mann’s Web site, RealClimate.org, has acknowledged behaviour that many scientists consider unethical, and terms such as “slander” and “abuse” are flying around, along with demands for an apology.

The global warming debate is heating up, even if Earth is not.

Financial Post
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #99 - Jul 6th, 2009 at 9:58am
 
Quote:
muso wrote on Jul 5th, 2009 at 3:50pm:
pjb05 wrote on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 4:37pm:
Of course the starting point of a plot can affect a trend, a criticism of the 'no warming since 1998' claim. But what if we look back much further? What's the trend here?



PJ - mate your data is seriously outdated. The source of that data comes from 1990 - 29 years ago. The HH Lamb data. We've moved on from there.

If you have 5 minutes spare, please watch this video then be ashamed. Be very ashamed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrKfz8NjEzU&feature=related


Whilst I agree with the rest muso, 1990 was only 19 years ago.



LOL - what can I say ?  Grin
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #100 - Jul 6th, 2009 at 9:58am
 
Hmm, who to believe??
Well Mann did have his work scrutinised by all the denialist forces, and also by teams from the National Academy of Science, and was it debunked??

Not to my knowledge. The main findings, and general thrust of his studies were affirmed, with minor methodologies being improved, and the hockey stick graph has been shown to be pretty accurate, and to the laymen at least, the revised graph, bears a striking similiarity to the original, so the contention that it was misleading does not make sense to me.

I doubt if any scientist has had their work more closely scrutinised than Mann, and his hockey stick graph, but contrary to the lies you hear from denialists, it most certainly has not been debunked.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #101 - Jul 6th, 2009 at 10:21am
 
pjb05 wrote on Jul 6th, 2009 at 9:07am:
Some have moved on from there Muso. The hockey stick has been resurected I know, my none other than Mann himself! The audio didn't work when I tried to play it so I am not hanging head in shame yet. Here Mann responds to criticism of his work from a Canadian journalist. It's an amazing string of ad hominen attacks:



Let me paraphrase then. The data in that graph represents the very first attempt to determine global temperatures over the last 2000 years. It used tree ring data and other proxies which were very local in scope.

Subsequent studies have shown that the so-called Medieval warming is much less significant when viewed on a global scale. It's a local effect only.

The data was a good serious attempt, but there are at least 6 other studies which do a very good job of determining temperatures for this period on a global scale - not just local.

In terms of the studies that are available today, the data you show is no longer regarded as representative for the reasons cited.

Let me recommend that you get a computer with sound. Those you-tube clips are actually very factual.

I get the idea that you have a lot more integrity than some. I think that you're very capable of answering rationally.

I agree that it would be nice if anthropogenic global warming was flawed, but sometimes the cold hard facts speak for themselves.

Examine the data with the objective of determining what the truth is. It's not about pushing a political agenda.

Have you ever heard of Admiral Jim Stockdale, or perhaps the Stockdale paradox? Let me see if I can find an appropriate reference.

Quote:
“This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end — which you can never afford to lose — with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.”

http://www.hooversbiz.com/2009/01/08/paradox-of-success-the-stockdale-paradox/

Stockdale was captured by the Vietcong and was the highest military officer in the 'Hanoi Hilton' during the height of the Vietnam war.

He managed to lead by example even in that scenario, and adopted a strategy that would increase the number of prisoners who survived the period of the war.

It serves as a good lesson for all aspects of life. Like Stockdale, I prefer to confront the brutal facts.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #102 - Jul 6th, 2009 at 10:43am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jul 6th, 2009 at 9:58am:
Hmm, who to believe??
Well Mann did have his work scrutinised by all the denialist forces, and also by teams from the National Academy of Science, and was it debunked??

Not to my knowledge. The main findings, and general thrust of his studies were affirmed, with minor methodologies being improved, and the hockey stick graph has been shown to be pretty accurate, and to the laymen at least, the revised graph, bears a striking similiarity to the original, so the contention that it was misleading does not make sense to me.

I doubt if any scientist has had their work more closely scrutinised than Mann, and his hockey stick graph, but contrary to the lies you hear from denialists, it most certainly has not been debunked.



To be honest, I don't blame Michael Mann for being pissed off at the denialist industry. If I were in his position, I'd be taking them to court for libel.

Mozzaok - I suggest you watch that series on You-Tube. It tells the truth in reasonably non-technical terms.

It's an eye opener just seeing what they would stoop to in order to sell their disinformation to the public.

One good thing about Plimer's new book is that he's a geologist, and a whole lot of geologists and scientists from other disciplines are coming out of the woodwork to attack his ludicrous claims.

At least nobody can claim that geologists and astronomers have some kind of biased agenda, or that they stand to make money from renewable energy.

For all intents and purposes, we now have an independent voice that's basically denouncing bad science because they are ashamed of people like Plimer giving science a bad name. They seem to be approaching it from the science angle, so they can't be accused of advocacy, except by the lunatic 'trilobite' fringe.    
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #103 - Jul 6th, 2009 at 10:49am
 
If only all that environmentalism was just pure science  Sad

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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #104 - Jul 6th, 2009 at 10:54am
 
tallowood wrote on Jul 6th, 2009 at 10:49am:
If only all that environmentalism was just pure science  Sad




Environmental Science is pure science. I generally don't concern myself with hugging trees or Polar bears. In fact the latter might be just a tad dangerous, despite a German woman who decided to go swimming with them recently  Grin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0pFaQluCZo
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #105 - Jul 6th, 2009 at 11:06am
 
muso wrote on Jul 6th, 2009 at 10:54am:
tallowood wrote on Jul 6th, 2009 at 10:49am:
If only all that environmentalism was just pure science  Sad



Environmental Science is pure science. I generally don't concern myself with hugging trees or Polar bears. In fact the latter might be just a tad dangerous, despite a German woman who decided to go swimming with them recently  Grin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0pFaQluCZo


unfortunately environmentalism is too tinted with politics and economics of self help.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #106 - Jul 6th, 2009 at 11:23am
 
Here's the original article which set off the exchange:

Lawrence Solomon: Climate change’s Antarctic ruffle
Posted: January 31, 2009, 2:22 AM by NP Editor
How does a new Nature study conclude that Antarctica is warming when actual temperature readings show it is not?
By Lawrence Solomon


For two decades now, those predicting climate-change catastrophe have been frustrated by skeptics who ask, “If carbon dioxide is warming the planet, why does the data show Antarctica to be cooling?” Until last week, the doomsayers had all manner of complicated explanations but no slam dunk answer. Now, thanks to a new study published last week in Nature magazine, the doomsayers obtained the answer they sought — proof that any fool can understand. The bottom line: Antarctica is in fact warming, just like the rest of the planet. “Contrarians have sometime grabbed on to this idea that the entire continent of Antarctica is cooling, so how could we be talking about global warming,” elaborated Michael Mann, director of the Earth System Science Center at Penn State University and a co-author of the Nature study. “Now we can say: No, it’s not true ... It is not bucking the trend.”

The press seized on the findings. “Antarctica is warming, not cooling: study,” announced a Reuters headline. “Global warming hits Antarctica,” stated CNN. “Antarctica joins rest of the globe in warming,” said the Associated Press. But this study in Nature leaves many unimpressed, including top scientists from the doomsayer camp. One week after the study’s release, it is clear this study does nothing to explain the enigma of a cooling Antarctica.

The Nature authors had a daunting challenge. For one thing, the U.S. government has maintained a scientific base at the South Pole since 1957 at which temperatures have been continuously measured. The temperature readings show a cooler climate over the past half century. For another, various weather stations in Antarctica record cooler temperatures. Moreover, satellite readings of temperatures above Antarctica show a cooling trend. Little wonder that the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change itself rejects the warming hypothesis. In its 2007 report, the IPCC accepts that Antarctica shows a “lack of warming reflected in atmospheric temperatures averaged across the region.” To reconcile Antarctica with the rest of the globe, global warming advocates have taken the simple, if unsatisfying, view that the lack of warming in Antarctica is consistent with the presence of warming everywhere else.

How do Mann and the other scientists involved in the Nature study now conclude that Antarctica is warming when actual temperature readings show it is not? Antarctica’s weather stations cover a small fraction of the continent. Where data doesn’t exist, Mann makes various assumptions, then deduces Antarctic temperatures over the last 50 years with the help of computer models. The official explanation: “The researchers devised a statistical technique that uses data from satellites and from Antarctic weather stations to make a new estimate of temperature trends.”

Are these statistical techniques reliable?

“I have to say I remain somewhat skeptical,” states Kevin Trenberth, a lead author for the IPCC and director of climate analysis at the National Center for Atmospheric Research. “It is hard to make data where none exist.”

Such results “have no real way to be validated,” states John Christy, an atmospheric scientist at the University of Alabama-Huntsville. “We will never know what the temperature was over the very large missing areas that this technique attempts to fill in.”

“How do the authors reconcile the conclusions in their paper with the cooler than average long-term sea-surface temperature anomalies off of the coast of Antarctica?” asked Roger Pielke, senior scientist at the University of Colorado in Boulder, in noting one of several failings in the study.

Michael Mann and Nature are not new to political controversy, or dubious science. The two collaborated before — in publishing what became known as the hockey-stick graph. This graph — which showed the 1990s to be the hottest decade of the hottest century of the last thousand years — became one of the most publicized facts of the year when it was published. Then the hockey stick became slapstick as it became an object of ridicule: Mann’s statistical techniques were shown to be entirely invalid and Mann was shown to have lacked the statistical knowledge demanded by the study. Mann and Nature refused to make public the data used to produce the graph, Nature refused to publish a response rebutting the hockey stick graph and Nature’s peer review process was shown to be a sham.

It took years, and a U.S. Congressional committee, to finally resolve the dispute, to Mann’s and Nature’s shame. Mercifully, the verdict over the latest offering from these two is seeing a speedier resolution.

Financial Post


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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #107 - Jul 6th, 2009 at 11:45am
 
It wouldn't surprise me if the East Antarctic was cooling slightly, and it's a strawman to say that Global Warming will result in uniform warming effects all over the globe.  The situation is a bit more complicated than that.

The West Antarctic icesheet is the one that we have to be concerned about at the moment. Now that is most definitely warming. If that goes, we've got 3.3 metres of sea level rise.

Any study that fails to distinguish between the two is seriously flawed.

The whole article is obviously paid advocacy.

Here's a clue:

Quote:
Mann’s statistical techniques were shown to be entirely invalid


Just for the record:

On June 22, 2006, the National Academy of Sciences released a pre-publication version of its report Report-Surface Temperature Reconstructions for the Last 2,000 Years,[27] supporting Mann's more general assertion regarding the last decades of the Twentieth Century, but showing less confidence in his assertions regarding individual decades or years, due to the greater uncertainty at that level of precision.

   "The basic conclusion of Mann et al. (1998, 1999) was that the late 20th century warmth in the Northern Hemisphere was unprecedented during at least the last 1,000 years. This conclusion has subsequently been supported by an array of evidence that includes ...
       Based on the analyses presented in the original papers by Mann et al. and this newer supporting evidence, the committee finds it plausible that the Northern Hemisphere was warmer during the last few decades of the 20th century than during any comparable period over the preceding millennium. The substantial uncertainties currently present in the quantitative assessment of large-scale surface temperature changes prior to about A.D. 1600 lower our confidence in this conclusion compared to the high level of confidence we place in the Little Ice Age cooling and 20th century warming. Even less confidence can be placed in the original conclusions by Mann et al. (1999) that "the 1990s are likely the warmest decade, and 1998 the warmest year, in at least a millennium" because the uncertainties inherent in temperature reconstructions for individual years and decades are larger than those for longer time periods, and because not all of the available proxies record temperature information on such short timescales."  

http://www.nasonline.org/site/DocServer/Yokoyama_Yusuke.pdf?docID=53500
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #108 - Jul 6th, 2009 at 11:55am
 
Most of the Antarctic mass loss comes from Western Antarctica with a mass loss of 148 ± 21 km3/year. The mass loss from East Antarctica is 0 ± 56 km3/year. Because of its relatively large uncertainty, it's uncertain whether East Antarctica is in mass balance or not.

Why is Western Antarctica losing ice mass while East Antarctica is relatively steady. The hole in the ozone layer above the South Pole causes cooling in the stratosphere. This increases circular winds around the continent preventing warmer air from reaching east Antarctica and the Antarctic plateau. The flip side of this is the Antarctic Peninsula in Western Antarctica has "experienced some of the fastest warming on Earth, nearly 3°C over the last half-century".

http://www.skepticalscience.com/antarctica-gaining-ice.htm

See figure below: Monthly ice mass changes and their best-fitting linear trends for WAIS (red) and EAIS (green) for April 2002 to August 2005.
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antarctic_mass2.gif (10 KB | 62 )
antarctic_mass2.gif

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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #109 - Jul 8th, 2009 at 11:17am
 
But what about the work of Canadian scientists Stephen McIntyre and Ross McKitrick who found a fundamental mathematical flaw in the computer program that was used to produce the hockey stick?

The improper normalization procedure tended to emphasize any data that does have the hockey stick shape, and to suppress all data that does not. To demonstrate this effect, McIntyre and McKitrick created some meaningless test data that had, on average, no trends. This method of generating random data is called Monte Carlo analysis, after the famous casino, and it is widely used in statistical analysis to test procedures. When McIntyre and McKitrick fed these random data into the Mann procedure, out popped a hockey stick shape!

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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #110 - Jul 8th, 2009 at 11:23am
 
Also was this quote supposed to be a ringing endorsement Muso?

Based on the analyses presented in the original papers by Mann et al. and this newer supporting evidence, the committee finds it plausible that the Northern Hemisphere was warmer during the last few decades of the 20th century than during any comparable period over the preceding millennium. The substantial uncertainties currently present in the quantitative assessment of large-scale surface temperature changes prior to about A.D. 1600 lower our confidence in this conclusion compared to the high level of confidence we place in the Little Ice Age cooling and 20th century warming. Even less confidence can be placed in the original conclusions by Mann et al. (1999) that "the 1990s are likely the warmest decade, and 1998 the warmest year, in at least a millennium" because the uncertainties inherent in temperature reconstructions for individual years and decades are larger than those for longer time periods, and because not all of the available proxies record temperature information on such short timescales." 

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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #111 - Jul 8th, 2009 at 3:03pm
 
pjb05 wrote on Jul 8th, 2009 at 11:17am:
But what about the work of Canadian scientists Stephen McIntyre and Ross McKitrick who found a fundamental mathematical flaw in the computer program that was used to produce the hockey stick?

The improper normalization procedure tended to emphasize any data that does have the hockey stick shape, and to suppress all data that does not. To demonstrate this effect, McIntyre and McKitrick created some meaningless test data that had, on average, no trends. This method of generating random data is called Monte Carlo analysis, after the famous casino, and it is widely used in statistical analysis to test procedures. When McIntyre and McKitrick fed these random data into the Mann procedure, out popped a hockey stick shape!




Well, that's what the National Academy of Sciences study was about. There were questions raised by the two bean counters (edit - ok economists then) and there was a great deal of discussion on it. The National Academy took all these points into account, but found that while there were minor issues with the statistical methodology, it did not affect the final conclusions.  

There has been a whole range of new studies conducted since then, and they all come to the same conclusion.

The only data that still shows an unusual warming during the Medieval period was the original regional dataset prepared in 1990.

Everything since then has taken a more global approach.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #112 - Jul 8th, 2009 at 3:11pm
 
pjb05 wrote on Jul 8th, 2009 at 11:23am:
Also was this quote supposed to be a ringing endorsement Muso?

Based on the analyses presented in the original papers by Mann et al. and this newer supporting evidence, the committee finds it plausible that the Northern Hemisphere was warmer during the last few decades of the 20th century than during any comparable period over the preceding millennium. The substantial uncertainties currently present in the quantitative assessment of large-scale surface temperature changes prior to about A.D. 1600 lower our confidence in this conclusion compared to the high level of confidence we place in the Little Ice Age cooling and 20th century warming. Even less confidence can be placed in the original conclusions by Mann et al. (1999) that "the 1990s are likely the warmest decade, and 1998 the warmest year, in at least a millennium" because the uncertainties inherent in temperature reconstructions for individual years and decades are larger than those for longer time periods, and because not all of the available proxies record temperature information on such short timescales."  




As I said, the original Mann report has been largely supported by subsequent independent studies.

As for the section in bold, I agree. If you read it carefully, it's talking about two very specific conclusions. Modern studies would not make such claims for individual years. Do you think you could explain the section that I highlighted to Grendel? It puts the previous section in context. Climate science has come a long way since Mann's report, although it's very useful from a historical perspective.

Now that we have more rigorous studies, it's time to archive the older studies as secondary data. If anyone continues to use datasets that are less representative in preference to more rigorous studies, you'd have to question their motivation.
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