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frost this morning, therefore no global warming (Read 12434 times)
Grendel
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #75 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 11:08am
 
Well if you can actually pinpoint where he said that amongst the "flotsam and jetsam" of his posts that'd be good.

I keep asking he keeps blustering.

Can I quote you to him as having that understanding from his posts?
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« Last Edit: Jul 1st, 2009 at 12:35pm by Grendel »  
 
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locutius
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #76 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 12:57pm
 
Of course. I'm sure he will correct me if I'm wrong.

The admission proves nothing without further qualification though in my opinion. By itself an innocuous truism.

But if muso does agree, what is your next point?

He at least has gone part way to discussing the next step, because he is assuming what you are implying or the direction you will take this agreement.

Take the assumption away and provide the next part of your argument.
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I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives.
 
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muso
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #77 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 1:05pm
 
locutius wrote on Jul 1st, 2009 at 12:57pm:
Take the assumption away and provide the next part of your argument.


He doesn't have a 'next part'
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pjb05
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #78 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 6:44pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2009 at 1:58pm:
PJ, that so-called 'expert' doesn't have a clue.


Quote:
Planet Earth is dynamic. It always changes and evolves. It is currently in an ice age."


No it isn't.



Really FD?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

Since the Earth has significant continental glaciation in the Arctic and Antarctic, we are currently in a glacial minimum of a glaciation. Such a period between glacial maxima is known as an interglacial.

The Earth has been in an interglacial period known as the Holocene for more than 11,000 years. It was conventional wisdom that "the typical interglacial period lasts about 12,000 years," but this has been called into question recently.

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Grendel
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #79 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 6:48pm
 
yawn...  see can't bring himself to say it.
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muso
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #80 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 8:54pm
 
pjb05 wrote on Jul 1st, 2009 at 6:44pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2009 at 1:58pm:
PJ, that so-called 'expert' doesn't have a clue.


Quote:
Planet Earth is dynamic. It always changes and evolves. It is currently in an ice age."


No it isn't.



Really FD?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

Since the Earth has significant continental glaciation in the Arctic and Antarctic, we are currently in a glacial minimum of a glaciation. Such a period between glacial maxima is known as an interglacial.

The Earth has been in an interglacial period known as the Holocene for more than 11,000 years. It was conventional wisdom that "the typical interglacial period lasts about 12,000 years," but this has been called into question recently.



pb - er -sorry to piss on your parade, but an interglacial is not an Ice Age, mate  Grin

I can tell you that with some degree of authority, since I minored in Geology a million years ago  Cheesy
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« Last Edit: Jul 1st, 2009 at 8:59pm by muso »  

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pjb05
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #81 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 9:20pm
 
Yes and Pilmer is a Professor in Geology. How about this then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Age

The general term "ice age" or, more precisely, "glacial age" denotes a geological period of long-term reduction in the temperature of the Earth's surface and atmosphere, resulting in an expansion of continental ice sheets, polar ice sheets and alpine glaciers. Within a long-term ice age, individual pulses of extra cold climate are termed "glaciations". Glaciologically, ice age implies the presence of extensive ice sheets in the northern and southern hemispheres;[1] by this definition we are still in an ice age (because the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets still exist).[2]

1. J. Imbrie and K.P.Imbrie, Ice Ages: Solving the Mystery (Short Hills NJ: Enslow Publishers) 1979.
2.  J. Gribbin, Future weather (New York: Penguin) 1982.

PS: there are numerous similar references on the net.


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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #82 - Jul 1st, 2009 at 9:59pm
 
pjb05 wrote on Jul 1st, 2009 at 6:44pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2009 at 1:58pm:
PJ, that so-called 'expert' doesn't have a clue.


Quote:
Planet Earth is dynamic. It always changes and evolves. It is currently in an ice age."


No it isn't.



Really FD?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

Since the Earth has significant continental glaciation in the Arctic and Antarctic, we are currently in a glacial minimum of a glaciation. Such a period between glacial maxima is known as an interglacial.

The Earth has been in an interglacial period known as the Holocene for more than 11,000 years. It was conventional wisdom that "the typical interglacial period lasts about 12,000 years," but this has been called into question recently.



Yes really PJ. Interglacial does not mean ice age. Temperature wise, we are roughly halfway between a hot spell and and ice age.
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muso
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #83 - Jul 2nd, 2009 at 9:46am
 
Ice Age is an ambiguous term. In Geology, we usually talk about glaciations. In many different disciplines, we talk about the last Ice Age, which ended around 11,000 years ago, depending on which part of the world you are referring to.

There are plenty of references to the 'Last Ice Age" on the web, and here are some examples (The last one being from Columbia University):

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2007/September/27090702.asp

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2004/06/10/1128898.htm
http://www.earthinstitute.columbia.edu/news/story0_1.html

Even in Geology, it is common to talk about the last 30 Million years or so as a 'Cycle of Ice Ages'.

To use the term 'Ice Age' in a book designed for the public would generally require some explanation.  Even a Geologist reading that text would find a problem with it.
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« Last Edit: Jul 2nd, 2009 at 9:53am by muso »  

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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #84 - Jul 2nd, 2009 at 10:06am
 
This is probably a bit simplistic but we have found so many lost cities over the last century or so and we know they have been destroyed or buried by weather changes. They thrived before the age of technology and carbon emissions.

Quote:
Many cities have been destroyed by natural disasters and rebuilt, sometimes repeatedly. But in other cases the destruction has been so complete that the sites were abandoned completely. Classic examples include the Roman cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum, buried with many of their inhabitants under a thick layer of volcanic ash after an eruption of Vesuvius.

A lesser known example is Akrotiri, on the island of Thera, where in 1967, under a blanket of ash, the remains of a Minoan city were discovered. The volcanic explosion on Thera was immense, and had disastrous effects on the Minoan civilization. It has been suggested that this disaster was the inspiration that Plato used for the story of Atlantis.

Less dramatic examples of the destruction of cities by natural forces are those where the coastline has eroded away. Cities which have sunk into the sea include the one-time centre of the English wool-trade, at Dunwich, England, and the city of Rungholt in Germany which sank into the North Sea during a massive storm surge in 1362.
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I live about a km from the sea - yet I am always finding shells surfacing in my garden. A mountainous area about 12 km inland from where I live not long ago discovered ancient fish fossils at the top of the mountains indicating that the area was once covered in water. How do we explain these buried cities and marine fossils millions of years old?
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #85 - Jul 2nd, 2009 at 11:30am
 
mantra wrote on Jul 2nd, 2009 at 10:06am:
This is probably a bit simplistic but we have found so many lost cities over the last century or so and we know they have been destroyed or buried by weather changes. They thrived before the age of technology and carbon emissions.

Quote:
Many cities have been destroyed by natural disasters and rebuilt, sometimes repeatedly. But in other cases the destruction has been so complete that the sites were abandoned completely. Classic examples include the Roman cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum, buried with many of their inhabitants under a thick layer of volcanic ash after an eruption of Vesuvius.

A lesser known example is Akrotiri, on the island of Thera, where in 1967, under a blanket of ash, the remains of a Minoan city were discovered. The volcanic explosion on Thera was immense, and had disastrous effects on the Minoan civilization. It has been suggested that this disaster was the inspiration that Plato used for the story of Atlantis.

Less dramatic examples of the destruction of cities by natural forces are those where the coastline has eroded away. Cities which have sunk into the sea include the one-time centre of the English wool-trade, at Dunwich, England, and the city of Rungholt in Germany which sank into the North Sea during a massive storm surge in 1362.
Wiki


I live about a km from the sea - yet I am always finding shells surfacing in my garden. A mountainous area about 12 km inland from where I live not long ago discovered ancient fish fossils at the top of the mountains indicating that the area was once covered in water. How do we explain these buried cities and marine fossils millions of years old?


Mantra,

The reason we find shells inland are varied. Most landmasses are constantly shifting .

It's perfectly true that conditions in the Geological past were warmer, and that atmospheric CO2 levels were higher than today. Nobody disputes that.

It's also true that there was practically no ice cover at the poles for extended periods in Geological history.

In terms of today's crisis, this is all cold comfort. The main problem, as I've repeated time and time again, is the fact that we're heading into a major human catastrophe as a result of the fact that unlike these past episodes, we actually have people and cities on Earth. It can be simply bad, or it can be catastrophic, depending on what action the world's governments take.

By the way, you can also find marine fossils in the alps and Mount Everest. To explain mountain building or orogeny in a single post is not possible. This Wikipedia article seems accurate enough at first glance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orogeny

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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #86 - Jul 2nd, 2009 at 4:37pm
 
Of course the starting point of a plot can affect a trend, a criticism of the 'no warming since 1998' claim. But what if we look back much further? What's the trend here?
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globaltemp.gif (128 KB | 71 )
globaltemp.gif
 
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #87 - Jul 2nd, 2009 at 4:43pm
 
Figure 1 Example of regional variations in surface air temperature for the last 1000 years, estimated from a variety of sources, including temperature-sensitive tree growth indices and written records of various kinds, largely from western Europe and eastern North America. Shown are changes in regional temperature in° C, from the baseline value for 1900. Compiled by R. S. Bradley and J. A. Eddy based on J. T. Houghton et al., Climate Change: The IPCC Assessment, Cambridge UniversityPress, Cambridge, 1990 and published in EarthQuest, vol 5, no 1, 1991.
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #88 - Jul 2nd, 2009 at 7:31pm
 
Thanks for the plot PJ.

So what does that plot look like if you add the most recent measurements on?
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Re: frost this morning, therefore no global warming
Reply #89 - Jul 5th, 2009 at 12:23pm
 
http://www.27bslash6.com/professorthomas.html

"Every year they say it's global warming, but then three months later it gets cold again. At first I'm noticing a change where it's warmer and the days are longer, and I think they're onto something, but then after a while I realize the days aren't getting longer and warmer, they're actually getting shorter and colder. It's like every year we almost get global warming but we JUST missed it!".
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