Australian Politics Forum - Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof

muso

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Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof
Reply #15 - Jun 16^th, 2009 at 9:23am

Grendel wrote on Jun 16^th, 2009 at 9:07am:

Oh and BTW...

Quote:

Senator Fielding says despite what Chief Scientist Penny Sackett explained to him yesterday, he is still not satisfied that carbon emissions are driving up global temperatures.

"When I put forward the question 'isn't it true that carbon emissions have been going up and global temperature hasn't?', they wanted to rephrase my question and not answer it," he told AM.

They talked to him about Ocean temperatures! Why on earth would they do that? Typical reaction from the Department of Climate Change. I was totally underwhelmed by their ineptitude on my last visit to Canberra. One public servant did all the talking and the other nodded like one of these dogs in the back of a car. Now I hear that the one who did all the talking has got a job with industry, and we're left to deal with noddy.

Re Fielding - It sounds like they're getting some facts together for a second meeting. Roll Eyes

They should get Dr Karl Kruszelnicki to do the communicating. He's good at communicating with laymen without getting them confused.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof Reply #16 - Jun 16^th, 2009 at 11:02am Oh yeah of course... the propaganda "machine" is what is important... not the FACTS.
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Happy

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Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof
Reply #17 - Jun 16^th, 2009 at 11:42am

Besides reducing CO2 emission irrespectively of cooling / warming we just have to plant more plants, presumably trees as little plants like grasses do not produce more oxygen than CO2.

Best would be plants that can accept brackish water, as we supposedly have severe deficiency of drinking water.

While ago I read book about hot house (in cold climate during winter), that had to have CO2 producing device (fermenter) in order to provide plants with enough CO2 to grow, as hot house was not ventilated due to heat conservation.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof Reply #18 - Jun 16^th, 2009 at 11:43am Grendel wrote on Jun 16^th, 2009 at 11:02am: Oh yeah of course... the propaganda "machine" is what is important... not the FACTS. Nah - it's more like saying to a dog "Canine creature, I would be delighted if you will descend on to all four feet" generally "Down Fido!" works better.
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muso

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Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof
Reply #19 - Jun 16^th, 2009 at 11:46am

Happy wrote on Jun 16^th, 2009 at 11:42am:

Besides reducing CO2 emission irrespectively of cooling / warming we just have to plant more plants, presumably trees as little plants like grasses do not produce more oxygen than CO2.

Best would be plants that can accept brackish water, as we supposedly have severe deficiency of drinking water.

Thanks for making an intelligent observation. It was getting like a desert in here. We need to get new crops that will adapt to changing climate - yes.

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Happy

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Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof
Reply #20 - Jun 16^th, 2009 at 12:00pm

muso wrote on Jun 16^th, 2009 at 11:46am:

Thanks for making an intelligent observation. It was getting like a desert in here. We need to get new crops that will adapt to changing climate - yes.

Thanks for nice comment.

Above all we should adopt our ways to “finite” everything.

We have finite surface available.

We have finite quantity of water (minus 7 m3 less every second lost to intergalactic space)

We have finite resources, apparently we will even run out of mineral necessary to produce LCD screens in about 15 years or less.

Pity that so vast resources have to be tied to military, that except for some discoveries are just lost effort to achieve nothing for the humanity.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof Reply #21 - Jun 16^th, 2009 at 12:18pm As I've always said happy no matter what the outcome... our number one asset is our ability to adapt and no matter what the climate we need to be prepared for it and adapt accordingly.
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freediver

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Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof
Reply #22 - Jun 16^th, 2009 at 10:15pm

Crap Grendel. You post the same BS nearly every week. Every time you fail to post a graph of the actual temperature. That's because only a moron would look at the temperature trend and say it is going down. I thought you were now too embarassed to try the silly 'frost this morning, therefor no global warming' line. No such luck.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof Reply #23 - Jun 16^th, 2009 at 10:53pm You being rude and lying about me fd. how unusual for you. Muso already posted the graph I've been talking about. Go fetch! One thing you got right I don't confuse daily temps with yearly av temps.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53417 At my desk.	Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof Reply #24 - Jun 19^th, 2009 at 9:35pm No thanks Grendel. Your unwillingness to provide the evidence is more than sufficient to demonstrate your intent. I don't need to post the graph to show that 'frost this morning, therefor no global warming' is a fool's argument.
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof Reply #25 - Jun 19^th, 2009 at 9:40pm yawn... still an excellent chap i see... ^--- Personal attacks will not be tolerated. Tell me if there are more. I might get around to fixing them this century.
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Happy

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Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof
Reply #26 - Jun 20^th, 2009 at 12:53pm

1709 was extremely cold year in Western Europe, coldest in 500 years or so.

Some wind measurements show that prevailing winds were from the west with only several days that wind was from the east(corrected error). Which is strange as usually cold snap is associated with wind from Siberia.

It started in early January then there was few days thaw and it came back with even lower temperatures to let go some time in April.

It is quoted that up to 1 million people perished directly due to cold temperatures and later because of starvation and disease.

Until now it is not known exactly what the cause was.

Due to limited observations we might never know for sure, but it shows that freakish phenomenon all of the sudden can cause quite devastation.

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« Last Edit: Jun 20^th, 2009 at 6:23pm by Happy »

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skippy Ex Member	Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof Reply #27 - Jun 20^th, 2009 at 2:59pm What we do know happy is that Fielding attended a conference sponsored by the fossil fuel industry and then came home sprouting that industries propaganda. Only a fool would buy this, I see there a plenty about tho.
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Grendel

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Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof
Reply #28 - Jun 20^th, 2009 at 3:49pm

Quote:

Opposition environment spokesman Greg Hunt disagrees with Senator Fielding's views, saying climate change was "a real phenomenon".

"It is significant, and it is of concern," he told ABC Radio.

However, everybody had the right, duty and obligation to examine the issue and make up their own mind, he said.

"There is a danger ... that anybody who does what Steve Fielding does and considers their position, is attacked as some sort of heretic and that's not a good thing in a democracy."

Quote:

Fielding heard leading atmospheric physicist Dick Lindzen, of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, describe evidence that the warming effect of carbon dioxide was much overestimated by computer climate models and remark: “What we see, then, is that the very foundation of the issue of global warming is wrong.

“In a normal field, these results would pretty much wrap things up, but global warming-climate change has developed so much momentum that it has a life of its own quite removed from science.”

Another scientist, astrophysicist Willie Soon, from the Harvard-Smithsonian Centre for Astrophysics, commented: “A magical CO2 knob for controlling weather and climate simply does not exist.” Think about that for a moment with respect to our government’s climate policy.

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Grendel

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Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof
Reply #29 - Jun 20^th, 2009 at 3:59pm

The questions posed by Fielding to Wong and her "specialist" were:

Quote:

* Is it the case that CO2 increased by 5percent since 1998 while global temperature cooled during the same period? If so, why did the temperature not increase, and how can human emissions be to blame for dangerous levels of warming?

* Is it the case that the rate and magnitude of warming between 1979 and 1998 (the late 20th-century phase of global warming) were not unusual as compared with warmings that have occurred earlier in the Earth’s history? If the warming was not unusual, why is it perceived to have been caused by human CO2 emissions and, in any event, why is warming a problem if the Earth has experienced similar warmings in the past?

* Is it the case that all computer models projected a steady increase in temperature for the period 1990 to 2008, whereas in fact there were only eight years of warming followed by 10years of stasis and cooling? If so, why is it assumed that long-term climate projections by the same models are suitable as a basis for public policy-making?

As independent scientists attending the meeting, we found the minister’s advisers unable, indeed in some part unwilling, to answer the questions.

We were told that the first question needed rephrasing because it did not take account of the global thermal balance and the fact much of the heat that drives the climate system is lodged in the ocean.

Que? What is it about “carbon dioxide has increased and temperature has decreased” that the minister’s science advisers don’t understand?

The second question was dismissed with the comment that climatic events that occurred in the distant geological past were not relevant to policy concerned with contemporary climate change. Try telling that to geologist Ian Plimer.

And regarding the accuracy of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s computer models, we were assured that better models were in the pipeline. So the minister’s advisers apparently concede that the models that have guided preparation of the emissions trading scheme legislation are inadequate.

These are not adequate responses.

It was reported in the Business Age last July that the ministry of climate change’s green paper on climate change, which was issued as a prelude to carbon dioxide taxation legislation, contained scientific errors and over-simplifications. Almost 12 months on, our experience confirms that the scientific advice Wong is receiving is inadequate to justify the exorbitantly costly upheaval of our society’s energy usage that will be driven by the government’s ETS legislation.

All Australians owe Fielding a vote of thanks for having had the political courage to ask in parliament where the climate empress’s clothes have gone. Together with the senator, and the public, we await with interest any further answers to his questions that Wong’s advisers may yet provide.

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