IRAN¿S former premier Mir Hossein Mousavi accused hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of "undermining" the Islamic republic's dignity during his four-year term, in a television debate on Wednesday ahead of next week's presidential poll.

Ahmadinejad's government “has undermined the dignity of our nation,” said Mousavi who is considered the conservative president's main challenger in the June 12 election.

“It has inflicted heavy damages on us and created tension with other countries. It has left us with not a single friend in the region,” said Mousavi, a moderate.
The “mismanagement” of the country by Ahmadinejad's government forced him to enter the presidential race, Mousavi said in the debate aired by the English-language station Press TV.

He charged that Ahmadinejad's foreign policy suffers from “adventurism, instability, exhibitionism and extremism.”
Mousavi, who was Iran's last prime minister before the post was scrapped in 1989, is seeking a comeback after two decades of political wilderness. He is reputed to have steered Iran's economy during the eight-year war with Iraq that ended in 1988.

Ahmadinejad, who opened the debate, said he and his government have been facing sustained “attacks” from Mousavi and his supporters, like two-time former presidents Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani and reformist Mohammad Khatami.

“They said in six months this government will fall apart ... they tried to crush this government,” said Ahmadinejad who is seeking a second term in office.

“I have tolerated insults against me and my government over the past four years. I have been called a dictator,” he said, adding that his position on the Holocaust has also been criticised by his opponents.

“I have my position on the Holocaust. The (supreme) leader has approved it and it has the backing of the people.”

Earlier on Wednesday, Ahmadinejad, known for his anti-Israeli tirades, said the Holocaust was a “big deception.”

The incumbent president said that next week's election was not a race between four candidates but one that is pitting “three people against one,” a reference to presidential hopefuls Mousavi, former parliamentary speaker Mehdi Karroubi and ex-head of Revolutionary Guards, Mohsen Rezai.

“It is all against one person,” he said.

And in a rare move, Ahmadinehad accused some supporters of Mousavi, especially sons of Rafsanjani, of having received financial privileges in the past.

Mousavi countered by saying that the “evasion of laws” under Ahmadinejad's government was leading to “minor dictatorship by not respecting the parliament and other top bodies.”
At one point, Ahmadinejad made a scathing personal attack on Mousavi, saying his wife, who he did not name, had “received her PhD without attending university exams”.

“This is lawlessness. My government is based on laws and regulations,” he said showing a white coloured photo copy which he said was the doctorate's degree of Zahra Rahnavard.

A visibly angry, Mousavi shot back saying his wife “is a prominent intellectual who had worked for 10 years to get her PhD”.

“She has done research in Koranic studies,” he said, and then used the opportunity to urge Iranians to vote on June 12 to “change the situation.”

“I am coming to change the situation ... to change this mentality, so that nobody suffers from public accusation. You (Ahmadinejad) are endangering the country,” Mousavi said, cutting short the conservative opponent who was trying to counter-attack.

Mousavi also poured scorn on Ahmadinejad's foreign policy.

“You say the United States is collapsing, you say Israel is collapsing. On the basis of these slogans, you make the foreign policy,” he said.

“I belong to people. I go to people. They will judge the situation which is dangerous for the country, therefore I entered the race.”

The debate was the second of a total of six.

Mir Hossein Mousavi sounds like a good man to me. He'ld get my vote.

This could be a very interesting election to follow.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 3:17pm:

A moderate muslim

, Sprint.

Cleric fires new shots in Iran poll war of words

DAYS before Iran's presidential election, one of the country's most powerful clerics, Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, has issued an open letter complaining that the country's Supreme Leader has remained silent in the face of "insults, lies and false allegations" by incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

The unusual letter reflects the intensity of campaigning before tomorrow's election, laying bare the deep political rifts and sore feelings within the country's leadership. It is rare for senior Iranian clerics to publicly criticise the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

In local parks women can be seen skateboarding in hijabs and people love American basketball.
Many of them are just trying to live normal lives under very, very tight restrictions.
They actually admire the West and its freedoms, and privately, they will tell you so. And those two sides of Iran are clashing head on in this election campaign.
The capital has been in a frenzy this week as the wave of support for Mr Mousavi grows.

Most people here would never dream of going that far but within the boundaries of their own courage, they are making a statement.
For young women, it might simply be wearing their headscarf back as far as they dare at the mass rallies for the reformist candidates.
Iran has never seen an election like this. Millions of people are desperate for change and to end the cold war with the West and have freedom of expression inside their own country.

.........Mr Ahmadinejad told supporters in his final rally: "Let the world know that if the Iranian nation should re-elect this small servant, he would go forward in the world arena with the nation's authority and would not withdraw one iota from the nation's rights."

In an ominous warning that the huge support for the Mousavi campaign may not be enough to win the election, Mr Ahmadinejad said he had "information" that his opponents had "found out" they had lost. The cryptic comment came before ballot boxes had opened.

The Mousavi campaign has strong support in the capital, Tehran, particularly among younger voters.

The Ahmadinejad campaign is believed to be stronger in rural and poorer areas......

tallowood wrote on Jun 12^th, 2009 at 8:02pm:

And an obvious one. The Iranian President is more like a head of government than head of state.

tallowood wrote on Jun 12^th, 2009 at 10:20pm:

Check out the Iranian Constitution.

tallowood wrote on Jun 12^th, 2009 at 10:45pm:

The Constitution of 1979 (amended 1989).

HARDLINE President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad resoundingly won Iran's election, preliminary official results showed on Saturday, but his moderate challenger alleged irregularities and claimed victory for himself.

The level of the incumbent's support, roughly twice as many votes as former Prime Minister Mirhossein Mousavi with most ballots counted, confounded analyst predictions of a tight race.

A bitterly fought campaign generated intense excitement inside Iran and strong interest around the world, with policymakers looking for signs of a change in Tehran's approach in a long-running row with the West over its nuclear ambitions.

Listing several complaints before official results were announced, Mr Mousavi said many people had not been able to vote and that there had been a lack of ballot papers.

He also accused authorities of blocking text messaging, with which his campaign tried to reach young, urban voters.

The butler told me that Iran is staffed not because of Iranians but because most of them are muslims.  

Defeated Iranian presidential candidate Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani has reacted angrily to his surprise loss to hardline opponent Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
In his first public statement following the election result, the moderate cleric alleged that an illegal dirty tricks campaign had been mounted.
The US meanwhile said Iran was out of step with current trends in the region. Mr Ahmadinejad won 62% of the vote in Friday's presidential run-off poll - nearly twice Mr Rafsanjani's backing.
The conservative president-elect said his win was a blow to the country's enemies - an apparent reference to the US, which had criticised the election as flawed. Mr Rafsanjani, who was president between 1989 and 1997, was the favourite going into the election and had re-cast himself as a liberal who was more willing to engage with the West.
Conservatives are now in control of every elected and unelected institution of government in Iran.
'Revolution weakened'
In a statement carried by the ISNA news agency, Mr Rafsanjani said: "All the means of the regime were used in an organised and illegal way to intervene in the election." He condemned "those who spent hundreds of billions of rials (tens of millions of US dollars) of the people's money to defame me and my family".
However, Mr Rafsanjani said he would not be appealing against the result, saying Iran's judiciary had shown it "cannot or do not want to do anything. This I will leave to God."
The 70-year-old concluded: "I entered this election uniquely to serve the revolution, Islam, Iran and the people. Those who weakened a competitor chose to weaken the revolution.
"I hope the country will be cleared of these enemies and profiteers who are without logic or faith."
Mr Rafsanjani nonetheless said that "everyone should help" President-elect Ahmadinejad, who is currently the Mayor of Tehran.
International reaction
The White House responded to the poll result by expressing support for "those who call for greater freedom for the Iranian people".
The State Department said Iran was "out of step... with the currents of freedom and liberty that have been so apparent in Iraq, Afghanistan and Lebanon".
UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said there were "serious deficiencies" in the election, noting that many reformists, and all women candidates, had been barred from standing.
He urged the new president to deal with international concerns over Iran's nuclear programme.
The European Union said it was ready to work with "any Iranian government" willing to progress on the questions of human rights, nuclear energy and other matters of concern......

THE next 48 hours will be crucial in deciding the immediate crisis in Iran.

For a few hours yesterday, the regime headed by supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei appeared to be losing control of the country.

But by last night, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was inviting supporters to celebrate his victory near the scene of much of the capital's turmoil.

Iran is not used to public displays of rebellion such as thousands of people chanting "Down with the dictator."

The country has not seen anything like this since the fall of the shah and the rise of the Islamic revolution in 1979.

The regime was surprised by the numbers who took to the streets over the weekend, and their level of anger.

Many people approached me and other journalists to say the election had been "a big cheat", "a lie" or "a theft".
As the government realised the extent of the backlash, it mobilised its full force.

The riot police and the Revolutionary Guards, both loyal to Mr Ahmadinejad, were in no mood for subtlety.

It was obvious when they arrived that the orders were to break up the crowds quickly. At one intersection they charged, hitting whoever was in their path.

While the regime's tactics are clear, the key now will be how the opposition responds.

The opposition students' strategy appears to be to build a critical mass in public.

As in Beijing's Tiananmen Square 20 years ago this month, crowds are the big threat to this autocratic regime.

The authorities' worst fear is that 200,000 people would block off central Tehran, allowing the crowd to swell.

They see this not just as an election protest but as a threat to the regime, with Ayatollah Khamenei warning: "Enemies may want to spoil the sweetness of the Iranian nation's victory in this election."

Most of those protesting in the streets would not have been born when the Islamic revolution occurred 30 years ago.

One of them, a doctor, said: "I am Muslim because my father was Muslim. That's all."

He is typical of the alienated. He is a professional with two children and a comfortable life. But he says he is angry that he has no choice about the type of society he lives in.

He refused to vote, saying that would only give legitimacy to the religious figures who run Iran without having to face the people at a ballot box.

He said he was planning to smash a ballot box. He wanted to make a statement before the international media.

In the end, he stayed away -- wisely -- but he typifies younger Iranians who have lost faith in their country.

The reason young people are at the forefront of the opposition is that through the internet, university networks and travel they can see the choices that are available in other countries.

They have no hostility towards Islam -- many are proud Muslims. They just want more than a religious state that enforces strict codes of behaviour.

More violence is almost certain. But this regime, with the sheer weight of force, will shut down public dissent after a few tragic days.
Longer term, the ayatollahs must work out how to deal with an angry and alienated group.

The international response to the crisis was cautious. Kevin Rudd said Iran's nuclear ambitions had destabilised the region.

"This will be a difficult period ahead for the international community with the apparent re-election of Mr Ahmadinejad," Mr Rudd said.

US President Barack Obama's push for dialogue with Iran faces new obstacles.

"We obviously hope the (election) outcome reflects the genuine will and desire of the Iranian people," US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said.

Israel voiced concerns over the return of Mr Ahmadinejad, who has called for the Jewish state to be wiped off the map. "The results of the election show, now more than ever, how much stronger the Iranian threat has become," Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon said.

IRAN'S defeated presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi has lodged a formal appeal on calling for last week's disputed election to be annulled.

Iran's defeated presidential election candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi at a news conference in Tehran. Picture: Reuters
His appeal came as Iran refused to allow Mr Mousavi’s call for a nationwide march to protest the disputed return of hardliner Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as Iran's president.

“No authorisation for a march or gathering has been issued and any kind of gathering or march is illegal,” an official with the interior ministry's public relations department told AFP.

“This statement is being issued after a request was made by Mr Mousavi to hold a march.”

The former premier had submitted a request on Sunday to hold a march to protest the landslide re-election of hardline Mr Ahmadinejad in a vote on Friday he claims was rigged.

The backlash to the election came amid warnings from Iranian political analysts that the return of hardliner Mr Ahmadinejad will weaken the Islamic republic and isolate it further from the rest of the world.

“Ahmadinejad's government will be weakened both within and abroad,” said Tehran-based analyst Saeed Laylaz.

Mr Ahmadinejad was declared victorious with a thumping majority but is facing stiff protests from Mr Mousavi, who has charged that votes were rigged to ensure Mr Ahmadinejad's return to power.

Mr Mousavi has condemned the election result as a “charade”.

Mr Ahmadinejad's victory has rattled not just large number of Iranians but also much of the international community.

Vice President Joe Biden has cast doubt on the validity of Mr Ahmadinejad's re-election in Iran, as European powers condemned the police crackdown that followed the poll.

“There is an awful lot of questions about how this election was run,” Mr Biden said in an interview with NBC television on Sunday.

“It sure looks like the way they are suppressing speech, the way they're suppressing crowds, the way in which people are being treated, that there are some real doubts about that,” he said.

Post-election protests and rioting on a scale not seen in Iran for a decade erupted on Saturday and touched off a police crackdown with some 170 people arrested.

“We are highly concerned because there was the beginning of a dialogue” between Iran's rival political factions, French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said in Paris.

“I am sorry that instead of openness there has been a somewhat brutal reaction,” M Kouchner said.

In Berlin, Germany's top diplomat called the police crackdown “unacceptable” and also raised questions about the legitimacy of the vote.

“Reports of (voting) irregularities are a concern. I expect the authorities in Tehran to examine these accusations as closely as possible and to provide a comprehensive explanation.”

London-based Amnesty International also called for an investigation into “the shocking scenes of violence meted out by the security forces”. ........

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=825866

ONE PROTESTER SHOT DEAD IN IRAN: REPORT
10:50 AEST Tue Jun 16 2009

A protester has reportedly been shot dead and several people have been wounded during clashes in Tehran as massive crowds defied a ban to stage a rally against the disputed re-election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
International criticism of the crackdown on opposition protests and the election mounted on Monday, with US President Barack Obama saying he was "deeply troubled" by the violence.
An Iranian photographer, declining to be named, told AFP that the fatal incident occurred in front of a local base of the Basij volunteer militia, which was set on fire. The dead man had been shot in the head.
Pictures of the incident showed armed men, wearing helmets and in civilian clothes, pointing guns at the crowds from the rooftop of the base. The photographer said the protester was killed by shots fired by the armed men.
If the death is confirmed, it would be the first since the violence erupted, the worst in Iran since student demonstrations in 1999 triggered a week of unrest across the nation.
An AFP correspondent at the rally also said police had clashed with protesters and that crowds of people were seen fleeing. He said shots were heard and a plume of thick black smoke billowed into the sky above a central square.
Police also fired tear-gas as dozens of protesters set motorbikes, tyres and rubbish bins ablaze.
Witnesses said the clashes erupted at the end of the rally when armed men dressed in plainclothes who did not appear to belong to the police started shooting at people.
Amid the escalation, Iran's electoral watchdog, the Guardians Council, said it will soon take a decision on the complaints of vote-rigging filed by defeated presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi.
The violence flared after Mousavi appeared in public for the first time since an election that has sharply divided the nation and triggered a wave of protests and rioting.
"God willing, we will take back our rights," Mousavi shouted from the roof of a car amid a sea of hundreds of thousand of Iranians, young and old, who packed into central Tehran despite the authorities ordering a ban on the rally.
Iran, battling one of its worst crises since the Islamic revolution three decades ago, faced a growing international backlash over the validity of Friday's election and the subsequent crackdown on opposition protests.
US President Barack Obama said on Monday he wanted to be "very clear" that "it is up to Iranians to make a decision about who Iran's leaders will be."
Obama added that he was "deeply troubled" by the violence he had been seeing in television news broadcasts from Tehran.
"Whenever I see violence perpetrated on people who are peacefully dissenting, and whenever the American people see that, I think they're rightfully troubled."
UN chief Ban Ki-moon has called for the will of the Iranian people to be "fully respected".
European governments complained about the tactics used against protesters and added their voices to US doubt over the election outcome, with the EU calling on Tehran to launch a probe into the results.
"The regime must address the serious questions which have been asked about the conduct of the Iranian elections," British Prime Minister Gordon Brown said.
German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier described the action of the security forces as "completely unacceptable," while French President Nicolas Sarkozy said he wanted "full light" to be shed on the vote.
Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei ordered a probe into allegations of vote-rigging after Ahmadinejad was returned to power in a landslide, an election that dented Western hopes of a change in domestic and foreign policy of the oil-rich nation.
State television said Khamenei - the all-powerful spiritual leader of the Islamic republic since 1989 - had told Mousavi he had instructed the Guardians Council supervisory body "to precisely examine" his complaints.
The Council head said a decision would be taken soon.
"I hope it will not take long that the noble people will see that the question has been examined in the best way and we will give the result to the people," Ayatollah Ahmad Jannati said on state television.
A spokesman for the 12-member Guardians Council had earlier said it would announce its decision in 10 days.
Mousavi, 67, lodged a formal appeal on Sunday for the cancellation of the results of what he charges was a rigged "charade."
"The vote of the people is more important than Mousavi or any other person," Mousavi told the crowds on Monday.
Demonstrators, some wearing the green of Mousavi's campaign colour, swarmed into central Tehran as riot police looked on. One policeman said between 1.5 million and two million people had turned out.
Monday's demonstration comes a day after the combative Ahmadinejad himself addressed a vast victory rally in Tehran to defend the results, saying the people of Iran had triumphed against the "world arrogance" (the West).
The authorities have warned they would crush any "velvet revolution" in Iran and police said on Sunday they had rounded up 170 people over the protests, including a number of reformist leaders.
On Saturday, Tehran witnessed widespread clashes between riot police who clubbed and tear-gassed stone-throwing protesters who set bins and vehicles on fire in violence on a scale not seen in a decade.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=825866

ONE PROTESTER SHOT DEAD IN IRAN: REPORT
10:50 AEST Tue Jun 16 2009

….
The Iranian authorities have also cracked down on local and foreign media, with Mousavi's own newspaper reportedly suspended and international outlets reporting the arrest and harassment of their journalists.
Telephone and internet services have also been disrupted.

TEHRAN is a tinderbox after government paramilitaries started shooting, killing at least one protester, following a huge public rally against last Friday's disputed re-election of President Ahmadinejad.
Tens of thousands of supporters of defeated presidential candidate Mirhossein Mousavi defy a government ban by marching in downtown Tehran.
Members of the Basij, a force of young Islamic hardliners, killed one demonstrator and wounded several more when their building was attacked as tens of thousands of protesters dispersed from a rally against election fraud held in defiance of a government ban.
In another incident a witness told The Times how she watched from her car as riot police on six motorbikes opened fire on youths walking under a bridge after the rally. “The riot police started shooting them with big guns,” she said. “It wasn’t like the films where there is just a small hole — the shooting was blowing off hands, limbs. It was terrible, terrible.”

An Iranian photographer, declining to be named, told AFP that the incident in which a man was killed occurred in front of a local base of the Basij volunteer militia, which was set on fire. The dead man had been shot in the head.

Pictures of the incident showed armed men, wearing helmets and in civilian clothes, pointing guns at the crowds from the rooftop of the base. The photographer said the protester was killed by shots fired by the armed men.

Gunfire was heard in at least three other districts of the Iranian capital. The Ministry of the Interior was rumoured to have authorised the use of live ammunition as the regime struggled to maintain control. Supporters of the defeated candidate, Mir Hossein Mousavi, fought running battles with the police and Basiji, who have flooded into Tehran.

Mr Mousavi emerged from hiding for the first time since the election results were announced to address the rally. He told the crowd packed into Azadi (Freedom) Square: “God willing, we will take back our rights.”

Newly emboldened, the protesters brought out their green ribbons and bandanas and chanted: “Mousavi we support you”, and “We will die, but retrieve our votes”. The show of strength boosted Mr Mousavi’s supporters, who have called for another rally and a general strike today. Demonstrations have also been reported in the cities of Esfahan, Shiraz, Mashad and Ahvaz

The Iranian regime showed its first sign of alarm when Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the Supreme Leader, who at the weekend hailed the result as a “divine assessment”, instructed the Guardian Council of 12 senior clerics to investigate allegations that the election was rigged. However, the move was seen widely as a ruse to buy time.
The regime’s violent response to the biggest political crisis in the Islamic Republic's 30-year history has triggered a growing international backlash. Gordon Brown warned Iran that the way it responded to legitimate protests would affect its relations with the rest of the world. David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, expressed concern at “what seems to be state violence against its own people”.

President Obama said he was “deeply troubled” by the violence, and Ban Ki Moon, the UN Secretary-General, urged the regime to respect the “genuine will” of the Iranian people.

That's the trouble with theocracy, if you claim divine right to rule and that god assents to your reign, then you have to right at least about all the big things all the time.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 16^th, 2009 at 1:49pm:

That's not accurate.  The value of a theocracy is that the religious authorities determine what truth is, and what "truth" can be disseminated through official organs.  It doesn't even matter if this conflicts with facts, as people can either be made to believe in lies, to self-censor, or to be apathetic.

In fact, the West arguably functions today as a bizarre secular theocracy wherein the "truth" is determined by the universities and media, which exhibit a disturbing uniformity of opinion much of which conflicts with reality.

In the world, one has to be aware of the flow.
Currently, it is a howling gale against dictators, esp islamic ones.
Democracy and freedom of speech has rarely been more valued.

If the "truth" turns out to be false, they need only to proclaim it endlessly and find new variations of this "truth".  At the same time the bar for disproving this "truth" can be continually raised while vigorous speech against this "truth" can be criminalized.  Society's elites will in turn internalize this false "truth" while those who challenge it will be ostracized and seen as weird outsiders.  This is exactly how the West functions, why would they be any different?  We just have a different set of "truths" and are a bit more sophisticated about the whole thing.

Most people in the world are poor, ignorant, and stupid, so it doesn't look too good for your prediction.

And by the way, which of these was Oliver Cromwell?

IRAN's opposition has stepped up its challenge to the Islamic regime by holding another rally even as the authorities cracked down hard on the media to try to contain the biggest crisis since the 1979 revolution.

Tens of thousands of supporters of defeated presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi took part in what was billed as a “silent” protest rally, marching through central Tehran.

Wearing green wrist- and head-bands in the colour of Mr Mousavi's campaign, the demonstrators carried placards accusing re-elected President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of having “stolen” their votes in Friday's poll.

Iranian state television broadcast brief footage of the rally.

Grappling with the biggest wave of public anger in three decades of Islamic rule, Iran lashed out at enemy “plots”, hauling in foreign ambassadors and rounding up scores of reformists.

The Iranian authorities threatened legal action against that publish material that “creates tensions” and issued a new warning to the foreign media, already facing tight restrictions on their work.

The media watchdog Reporters Without Borders said a dozen Iranian journalists and bloggers have been arrested and many others have gone into hiding.

Supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khameini said he would consider a partial recount after the opposition held mass protests over what it charges was blatant rigging of the election that gave Mr Ahmadinejad another four-year term.

In defiance of an official ban, Mr Mousavi himself called for marches and a day of mourning today for protesters slain in the post-election clashes.

And he repeated his demand for the results of what he branded a “shameful fraud” to be annulled and a new vote called, in a statement on his movement's website.

Late yesterday, he and former reformist president Mohammad Khatami issued a joint letter urging the Iranian authorities to release those arrested in recent days and end the violence against their supporters.

“We ask you to take all the necessary measures to put an end to today's worrying situation, to stop the violent actions against people and to free those arrested,” said the letter, again published on his website.

Addressed to judiciary chief Ayatollah Mahmoud Hashemi Shahroudi, it denounced violent actions and provocations against peaceful protestors and attacks against students and their halls of residence.

At least seven people have been killed and many more wounded in clashes, with protests reported not only in Tehran but also other major cities after an election that has exposed deep divisions in the oil-rich nation.

Mr Ahmadinejad remained defiant, saying his landslide victory in Friday's vote showed faith in his government of “honesty and service to the people.”

Khamenei, who has the final say on all matters of state, said he was asking the Guardians Council, a 12-member body made up of jurists and clerics, to examine the complaints of irregularities.

The council said it had invited Mr Ahmadinejad's three challengers to set out their grievances on Saturday.

Yep, that’s what they would do, in fact. But if the truth of a really big thing turns out to be false then god’s not speaking to you… or he’s lying to you (and then it’s not ‘god’ who’s doing the talking}. Here in the West our leaders, being only human, often lie, obfuscate, manipulate and betray their own causes… and god doesn’t come into it.

Many Iranians are no longer poor, ignorant and stupid and that’s a problem for the council of guardians.

Cromwell? Given what he did to the Irish, a murdering psychopath and may the kunt rot in his hell for it.

\
People power is nearing the point where it could move the hand of the Supreme Leader to either install Mousavi or hold re-elections.

True democracy in Iran will require the Islamic Republic to be overthrown and it's still a long road to that place.

Either way, support for the Islamic Republic and the mullahs' grip on power will be seen as massively weakened internally and externally... The cause of it's ultimate downfall has eaten into the facade.

It's relevant when you want the people to believe that god is on your side.

(Here we go, didn't take long, another Yank dropping in to tell us what it is.)

So what's a Yank doing dropping into an Aussie politics site?

Maybe the fact that Iran appears to be attempting to develop a nuclear weapon makes it a concern to all what the bugger's going on inside Iran.

Coral Sea wrote on Jun 18^th, 2009 at 11:27am:



That's great - don't care until it's time to nuke them. Brilliant.

And I'd rather nuke them than sit around wringing my hands over whether or not they're a "real democracy".

Coral Sea wrote on Jun 18^th, 2009 at 12:07pm:

I think an American would phrase it... rooting for 'people power'

Can't use it in Australia, rooting means smacking.

How about the dream of a fully democratic Iran that would hopefully then allow the US mission in Iraq to succeed?

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 18^th, 2009 at 12:19pm:

I'm also not quite sure what our mission in Iraq is...

As protesters continue to organise mass rallies on the streets of Tehran, the Iranian Government has criticised the West for meddling in its internal affairs.

Ambassadors have been summoned to the Foreign Ministry in Tehran, where officials have complained about "impertinent comments" and "intolerable interference".

Man, that's a really demeaning tone Iran has put on.

Who do they think the USA are , naughty kids ?

Iran is going to have another big earthquake soon, such is the will of allah.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 18^th, 2009 at 9:06pm:


Stop being a racist Islamophobe. You are just ignorant to the true message of peace being preached by Iran. Try to be more tolerant.

grendel - if that's true about mousavi that'ld be quite disappointing

................Instead the authorities acted as though they were stealing the vote - announcing a full count of 40 million ballots two hours after polls closed, with a suspicious uniformity in Mr Ahmadinejad's large majority across the country.................

.............But even if the situation leads to a change of president, the West should not expect any immediate transformation of Iran.
Mr Mousavi, an activist in the 1979 hostage-taking at the US embassy and later a prime minister as the regime liquidated its opposition, is part of the system and a declared supporter of nuclear capability.
A long rapprochement lies ahead, but the youth of Iran's population and its growing use of new forms of communication will steadily undermine the likes of Mr Ahmadinejad...........

..

Khamenei is not inviting them to prayers to demonstrate their piety; he's demanding a symbolic show of loyalty to the Islamic Republic itself, and its founding principle of giving ultimate political authority to its clerical Supreme Leader.

These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated.