Australian Politics Forum - Jesus loves you, maybe?

Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Jesus loves you, maybe? Reply #30 - Apr 21^st, 2009 at 3:15pm jesus never said the end was nigh... ie:coming soon, in a lifetime or less. lol.
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Yadda

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Re: Jesus loves you, maybe?
Reply #31 - Apr 21^st, 2009 at 3:21pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2009 at 3:12pm:

James was the brother of Jesus. It is inconceivable that throughout 30 plus years of acquaintance that the end times occurrence was not mutually understood. James was also known as 'the just' or 'the righteous' and was also deeply religious. Paul claims authority from a vision of Jesus and neither James nor Paul disagree on the end times being with their generation's lifetime. It's reasonable to presume that Jesus, James and Paul all believed the end was imminent.

As you wish.

p.s.
But this sounds very much like 'religion' to me.

[i.e. proving again, 'belief' is closely associated with that religion, ....err, atheism] Wink

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Jesus loves you, maybe?
Reply #32 - Apr 21^st, 2009 at 3:57pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2009 at 3:12pm:

Paul claims authority from a vision of Jesus
and neither James nor Paul disagree on the end times being with their generation's lifetime. It's reasonable to presume that Jesus, James and Paul all believed the end was imminent.

Not so.

helian,

Wasn't Paul's commission from Christ, to take the good news, to the Gentile world?

Which by definition would include every country in the known world, exclusive of Judea.

It would be hard to imagine that, that task, could have been completed within Paul's lifetime?

Even taking into consideration the limited extent of the the known world at that time, could that task reasonably have been expected [by Paul] to have been completed within Paul's lifetime?

I would suggest, No.

It would seem an illogical argument.

i.e.
If the commission given to Paul, was so unlikely to have been fulfilled, so soon after it was given to him, it seems unlikely then that Paul anticipated Christ's 'imminent' return,
.....as you and some others have suggested?

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Ananias was wary of 'Saul', who he knew well, by reputation!

Acts 9:10
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Just more affliction in sight, for Paul, down the road.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Jesus loves you, maybe?
Reply #33 - Apr 21^st, 2009 at 3:59pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 21^st, 2009 at 3:21pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2009 at 3:12pm:

James was the brother of Jesus. It is inconceivable that throughout 30 plus years of acquaintance that the end times occurrence was not mutually understood. James was also known as 'the just' or 'the righteous' and was also deeply religious. Paul claims authority from a vision of Jesus and neither James nor Paul disagree on the end times being with their generation's lifetime. It's reasonable to presume that Jesus, James and Paul all believed the end was imminent.

As you wish.

p.s.
But this sounds very much like 'religion' to me.

[i.e. proving again, 'belief' is closely associated with that religion, ....err, atheism] Wink

Another misuse of the verb 'to believe'.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Jesus loves you, maybe?
Reply #34 - Apr 21^st, 2009 at 4:13pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 21^st, 2009 at 3:57pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2009 at 3:12pm:

Paul claims authority from a vision of Jesus
and neither James nor Paul disagree on the end times being with their generation's lifetime. It's reasonable to presume that Jesus, James and Paul all believed the end was imminent.

Not so.

helian,

Wasn't Paul's commission from Christ, to take the good news, to the Gentile world?

Which by definition would include every country in the known world, exclusive of Judea.

It would be hard to imagine that, that task, could have been completed within Paul's lifetime?

Even taking into consideration the limited extent of the the known world at that time, could that task reasonably have been expected [by Paul] to have been completed within Paul's lifetime?

I would suggest, No.

It would seem an illogical argument.

i.e.
If the commission given to Paul, was so unlikely to have been fulfilled, so soon after it was given to him, it seems unlikely then that Paul anticipated Christ's 'imminent' return,
.....as you and some others have suggested?

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Ananias was wary of 'Saul', who he knew well, by reputation!

Acts 9:10
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Just more affliction in sight, for Paul, down the road.

Probably the known world to Paul was the known world that counted... i.e. the Roman and Helenised world... At least it was the only one he appeared determined to evangelise. Outside that world he would have been hindered by the language barrier and the fact that he was a Roman citizen, making him an enemy outside the empire. He would probably have continued west had he not been executed in Rome.

However Paul made about as energetic attempt at spreading his bare bones doctrine as could be expected of anyone.

Luckily he appears to have been remarkably well connected, which is not surprising given he was probably related to the Herodians and so would have had prominent contacts in whichever city he preached. He could have travelled at a far more leisurely pace had he thought that the end times would be at least 2000 years off.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Yadda

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Re: Jesus loves you, maybe?
Reply #35 - Apr 21^st, 2009 at 4:30pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 21^st, 2009 at 4:13pm:

.....
[Paul] could have travelled at a far more leisurely pace had he thought that the end times would be at least 2000 years off.

Look at this world today.

We live in a world filled with violence [insanity] and injustice.

Matthew 24:32
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

".....But as the days of Noe were,"

Genesis 6:11
.....and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah.....the earth is filled with violence through them....

Psalms 1:1
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Lamentations 3:25
The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.
26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

Isaiah 30:18
And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.

Seek your God.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Jesus loves you, maybe? Reply #36 - Apr 21^st, 2009 at 4:40pm Yadda wrote on Apr 21^st, 2009 at 4:30pm: Seek your God. All together now (In a thick Slavic accent).... "In Russia god seek you".
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Jesus loves you, maybe? Reply #37 - Apr 21^st, 2009 at 7:58pm lot of pointless banter even for you helian... what was the original question?
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Jesus loves you, maybe? Reply #38 - Apr 21^st, 2009 at 10:46pm Grendel wrote on Apr 21^st, 2009 at 7:58pm: what was the original question? Usual pointless theological conundrum... How much love would a myth give man if a myth-man could love man?
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Calanen

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Re: Jesus loves you, maybe?
Reply #39 - Apr 22^nd, 2009 at 7:16am

mozzaok wrote on Apr 19^th, 2009 at 8:29am:

[quote]I keep telling you back grendel, that I know enough about christianity to want it out of my life.

Don't have it in your life. But Christianity does not rule sovereign states or have courts that make sure it rules people's lives.

Quote:

I can see the problems with Islam, and the effect that it has on everyone's lives, and resent their power to effect us because of their beliefs, and good christians have no problem commenting on that.
What they don't want to admit is that Christianity also forces it's way into peoples lives, who don't want 'any' stinking religion in them.

So what? Christianity does not have people flying planes into buildings. It does not have legions of followers willing to kill people at the first hint of anything they do not like. It is also not a road map for conquest in the name of religion. It is just a religion that you find annoying. That's a whole different league from Islam, which actively seeks to destroy and rule over all other forms of society.

Quote:

I don't like religion,
I would like to see it lose all influence over people.

Think of the governments that have had no religion at all allowed by their populace. The USSR, China, North Korea. Not very nice places to be.

The whole moral equivalence argument is, frankly pathetic. There is nothing the same or similar about Christianity compared to Islam. And even if Christianity was exactly the same, it does not mean that we should not deal with the problem of Islam.

All this is, is a misguided character reference for Islam, ie, another religion is really bad see...? Does that make Islam less bad, the problems less real?

You also know nothing about Islam Moazzak. You keep saying 'I know enough to know...' but again, you know nothing about Islam. So your statements about what 'true Islam' believes, says or does are based on ignorance, not facts or evidence.

Get some facts or evidence, and base your beliefs on those, and we may have a sensible conversation. Until then you need to say, 'I believe xx, but I do not know really because I have nothing to base that on.'

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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Jesus loves you, maybe? Reply #40 - Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 2:55pm
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