Australian Politics Forum - Honor Killings in Palestine

tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6048	Re: Honor Killings in Palestine Reply #15 - Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 7:47am abu_rashid wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2009 at 10:34pm: Where .... abu, while I have your attention can you answer the questions that I've asked you here?
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abu_rashid

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Re: Honor Killings in Palestine
Reply #16 - Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 9:25am

sprint,

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abu - the only instances I see involve muslims.

That's probably because you're wearing a special pair of spectacles that permit you only to see bad things done by Muslims. Take them off, and you might start seeing normally again.

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so by my research it is not 70% muslim involvement.
It is 100%

Look above, I posted an article about a Christian bludgeoning his daughter to death because she wanted to marry a Muslim.

Calanen,

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There is nothing in Islam which supports the killing of women who commit crimes of dishonor.

Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them

There is nothing in Islam whatsoever that even remotely supports these extra-judicial vigilante crimes that are mostly based on suspicions.

Notice the stipulation for a conviction requires 4 witnesses, in a court of law, not a strong suspicion or a whisper from someone who saw her talking to a strange guy.

Your likening of Islam's capital punishment for adultery to honour crimes, is like me saying that if an American murdered his son for owning a pen that writes with invisible ink, then the American system would be responsible for that, because spying is a capital offense there, and his father killed him because he suspected him of spying. It's just ridiculous, honour killings are horrendous crimes that have nothing to do with capital punishment for adultery whatsoever.

Nowhere does Islam state anything about wearing make-up or talking to a strange man being a capital offense. Any more than the American system says using pens which write in invisible ink is a capital offense, for which family members can execute them extra-judicially.

Being a lawyer and all, I'm sure you can see the vast difference between these two things, legally. They are completely unrelated.

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easel

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Re: Honor Killings in Palestine
Reply #17 - Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 9:26am

Can the government make a law against Islam?

I mean, it is illegal to kill people, and it is illegal to have multiple wives, and it is illegal to have slavery (dhimmitude seems like slavery), and modern Islam seems to condone these things.

It also seeks political representation.

How is it that it is legal in Australia?

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I am from a foreign government. This is not a joke. I am authorised to investigate state and federal bodies including ASIO.

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Honor Killings in Palestine Reply #18 - Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 9:28am tallow, I haven't lived in Lakemba for about 8 years now, so I've got no idea what's going on there.
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abu_rashid

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Re: Honor Killings in Palestine
Reply #19 - Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 9:36am

easel,

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I mean, it is illegal to kill people

It is STRICTLY forbidden for Muslims to just go around killing people, you are just speaking garbage here.

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and it is illegal to have multiple wives

Not illegal to have 1 wife and 3 de-factos though.

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it is illegal to have slavery (dhimmitude seems like slavery)

This just indicates you don't even have any idea what the word dhimmi means.

Dhimmi means someone who has a covenant of PROTECTION with a state. Muslims are the dhimmis here.

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It also seeks political representation

ohhh, how terrible. A group of people seeking political representation in a so called free democracy. Who would've thought of such a thing???

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How is it that it is legal in Australia?

Think about it... you'll work it out sooner or later.

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easel Gold Member Offline Posts: 3120	Re: Honor Killings in Palestine Reply #20 - Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 10:07am But Muslim laws are against democracy. So how can a democratic society encourage something like that?
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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Honor Killings in Palestine Reply #21 - Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 10:14am Muslim laws are for an Islamic state, not a democratic one. It's like saying we can't have Americans here (yes some might agree I know) because they believe in a state system that executes people for all sorts of stuff and they do other weird things like eating peanut butter with jam.
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easel

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Re: Honor Killings in Palestine
Reply #22 - Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 10:33am

Don't muslims want muslim law?

That would imply making an islamic state.

Clearly, that is incompatible with Australian values.

You also wrote that it is strictly forbidden for muslims to just go around killing people.

Then why do they do it? We have evidence here of muslims doing just that.

Why are muslims supposed to not criticise or condemn other muslims?

That would be a contradiction of their faith.

the islamic system is clearly not good for any country.

You call yourself Australian and you want this kind of system? Why? It goes against everything Australia is about. It is anti freedom. Australians will not tolerate extremist islam in this country. And anyone who you refer to as a proper muslim would be an extremist.

I've met muslims who drink alcohol, and they seem alright. They aren't in to the whole dimmitude crap. They are what they call cultural muslims, as in they remember their cultures, but they aren't in to the whole caliphate and sharia. Why on earth would anyone want to restrict freedom so severely anyway?

You also write that muslims are muslims, there is no difference between shi'te and sunni. I've been told by many muslims that shi'te are crazy and need to be stopped.

You are trying to mislead people when you say there is no difference. There clearly are. They follow different paths in life and have different philosophies/teachers, do they not?

How much else have you lied about?

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I am from a foreign government. This is not a joke. I am authorised to investigate state and federal bodies including ASIO.

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Calanen

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Re: Honor Killings in Palestine
Reply #23 - Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 10:36am

easel wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 9:26am:

Can the government make a law against Islam?

I mean, it is illegal to kill people, and it is illegal to have multiple wives, and it is illegal to have slavery (dhimmitude seems like slavery), and modern Islam seems to condone these things.

It also seeks political representation.

How is it that it is legal in Australia?

Yes the government could validly make laws against islam, under the current system. They have the constitutional power to do so.

And abu has just made some more ridiculous straw man arguments. I'd like him to once go to a philosophy debate or discussion group and get howled down with laughter for his pathetic argument construction. And he is wilfully ignorant at how bad his method of argument is, purporting to give me lectures about how to create arguments. It's colours to a blind person for him, he is the King of Straw.

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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 22246 A cat with a view	Re: Honor Killings in Palestine Reply #24 - Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 11:52am tallowood wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2009 at 9:09pm: 70% of worlds "honour" killings are done by muslims. 100% of the worlds "honour" killings are done by ppl who are totally 'unhinged'. It is a despicable crime against our humanity.
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Calanen

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Re: Honor Killings in Palestine
Reply #25 - Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 12:19pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 11:52am:

tallowood wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2009 at 9:09pm:

70% of worlds "honour" killings are done by muslims.

It is a despicable crime against our humanity.

100% of the worlds "honour" killings are done by ppl who are totally 'unhinged'.

It is OVERWHELMINGLY a muslim problem. Islam deflects criticism of it by finding the handful of other instances around the world, instead of doing something about honour killings in its own community.

There is no impetus to reform honour killings in Islamic countries, because women are second class citizens roughly equal to cattle. So, its a low priority. Also, many Islamic states actually have laws which protect against prosecution for honor killings OR the local police refuse to prosecute. Women's lesser status in Islam as obedient breeding stock that are get covered up and out of public life as servile employees of their domineering Islamic men is a contributing factor to honour killings continuing.

Also, honour killings are the result of men believing via Islam that they are the commanders in chief over the lives of women. What happens when in Islam, when someone disobeys their rightful masters, as commanded by Allah the Moon God? Acid on the face, beheading, beating.

Abu's topsy turvy Islamic deflection reasoning goes something like this: there are no tornadoes in the US, because I found one tornado in another country. Therefore there is no problem with tornadoes in the mid-west of the united states, it is a worldwide problem and not a mid-western problem.

There will be only one result of all this denial about honour killings in the Islamic community:

* more honour killings.

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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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Yadda

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Re: Honor Killings in Palestine
Reply #26 - Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 12:22pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2009 at 10:34pm:

......Islam as a belief system deplores [Honor Killings], and they have nothing to do with Islam. According to Islamic belief, these people are nothing but callous murderers.

abu,

That assertion is a little disingenuous, i would argue.

I would state that every example of 'honour' killing involving muslims, which i have come across, has been justified [by the muslim perp] on the basis of the victims apostasy.

i.e.
Many young muslims are murdered because of their 'illegal' association with 'unbelievers', or, for being perceived as living an un-ISLAMIC lifestyle which is unacceptable to the father, brothers, male cousins, etc.

Perceived apostasy.

And that fact gives the lie to your claim,

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.....['honour' killings among muslims] have nothing to do with Islam.

EXAMPLE FROM UK....

Muslim apostates threatened over Christianity [UK]
11 Dec 2007
.....Sofia Allam simply could not believe it. Her kind, loving father.....said she had brought shame and humiliation on him, that she was now "worse than the muck on their shoes" and she deserved to die.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/09/nmuslim109.xml

.....but of course, it has nothing to do with ISLAM.

/sarc off

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« Last Edit: Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 12:30pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Calanen

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Re: Honor Killings in Palestine
Reply #27 - Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 12:29pm

It has a lot to do with Islam.

Islam has the burqua, niquab, or hijab - not wearing these, leads to animosity about being a western whore, and invites hostility and violence.

Islam has the penalty of death for apostasy. If a muslim women leaves the faith, she may be honor killed for this. This might mean she wants a life of freedom instead of being a burqua covered breeding machine that lives at home, does housework and takes a beating whenever she is not up to par. So she is an apostate, she has left the faith, and she must die.

Islam also has the death penalty for infidelity. So having a non-islamic boyfriend, may lead to allegations of infidelity, leading, again, to the death of women.

Added on top of all this, is the lesser status of women in Islam, and the patriachal nature of Islam - again contributing more to the likelihood that women will be abused, given they are seen as the property of men, and property does what its told. Or it suffers the consequences.

Islam knows it does not have to kill or disfigure too many women for ALL OF THEM in Islam to be afraid to step out of line. The constant threat that maybe, just maybe, if they do not do what they are supposed to do, they will be beaten, have acid thrown on their faces, or be beheaded - is enough to make most women compliant.

Hell, even our politicians, police and citizens are afraid of Islam. How much more would women who live surrounded by it be afraid?

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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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Calanen

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Re: Honor Killings in Palestine
Reply #28 - Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 12:49pm

How to beat your wife, as told by an Islamic cleric. Why would you beat your wife? Because Islam says you can. No broken bones however, that would be haram. But..if you did overdo it a bit, do you really think the male Islamic police officer is going to arrest and charge you in Saudi Arabia? Surely you jest.

It is this inferior status of women under Islam that leads to all sorts of crimes against them. Feminists bleat on and on about how oppressive the West is, but give Islam a pass either through fear or because it is an enemy of a system they despise, or because respect for all foreign culture is ingrained into them - no matter how violent, backward, intolerant those cultures are.

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Quote:

ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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abu_rashid

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Re: Honor Killings in Palestine
Reply #29 - Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 1:10pm

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Don't muslims want muslim law?

Of course we do. But Islamic law is for an Islamic state, not for a non-Islamic one. As a Muslim living in a non-Muslim country, it's forbidden to "implement" Islamic law by yourself. It can only be implemented by a Caliph in a proper Islamic state. So these claims that Muslims are trying to secretly implement Shari'ah are nothing but PURE fantasy. We can't even implement it in predominantly Muslim countries, let alone in countries in which most Muslims are refugees and a tiny minority.

Such arguments are nonsensical and completely depart from reality within the first few points.

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That would imply making an islamic state.

If Muslims are going to create an Islamic state, my guess is it'll be in the Middle East, not in Australia. You're just a gullible victim of scaremongering.

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Then why do they do it? We have evidence here of muslims doing just that.

Why do Hindus or Sikhs or Christians or Jews do it? Because they're criminals. Not because of the religion they follow.

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Why are muslims supposed to not criticise or condemn other muslims?

Why would we condemn and criticise other Muslims for some show to non-Muslims? What would it achieve? It's part of keeping unity amongst Muslims. Would you go and badmouth your brother or mother to people outside your family, just to please them?

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You also write that muslims are muslims, there is no difference between shi'te and sunni. I've been told by many muslims that shi'te are crazy and need to be stopped.

Nowhere have I written any such thing. You're running on pure fantasy now.

Bring a quote for it, or consider my participation in this discussion terminated. You've been detached from reality so far, but that was based on your gullible belief in other peoples lies, this is clearly your own concoction though...

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How much else have you lied about?

The only one lying here is you.

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