Australian Politics Forum - Christian militants kill U.K soldiers

easel

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Re: Christian militants kill U.K soldiers
Reply #15 - Mar 10^th, 2009 at 1:51pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 10^th, 2009 at 1:44pm:

And the Catholic Irish have fought for their faith almost since the rise of English Protestantism. Attending Mass was until recently considered not only a religious obligation but also an act of defiant patriotism.

What do you know about Halloween?

It's nationalism not bloody religious crap.

It's not about faith. It is about Irish people being mistreated, having their lands stolen, persecuted, starved, underpaid, losing self determination, amongst many other things, thanks to the English.

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Calanen

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Re: Christian militants kill U.K soldiers
Reply #16 - Mar 10^th, 2009 at 1:54pm

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 9^th, 2009 at 2:02pm:

"...For God and Ulster..."

Says it all mate. So God is even before their nationalist sentiments.

They are killing in the name of God, your God, the Christian God... aren't you a protestant also? So even your very same sect. Perhaps you fund them? Perhaps some of the donation money you give each sunday actually goes to help them arm up?

You bloody Christians shouldn't be allowed into this country!!

Everytime I drive past the "Loyal Organge Club" near my house, I wonder why these bloody Christian militants have to bring their religious-warring symbolism here??

It's a fight over land which happens to be between two groups of difference race and religious identity. The war is not being fought for the global christian jihad, unlike the war of jihad for Islam. Their goal (even though the methods are deplorable and they should be strung up and shot) is to get Britain out of Ireland. Not get all people of other religions out of the whole world, and impose catholic law on the whole world.

That's why using the Real IRA as an analogy for the global jihad, is ridiculous.

The Real IRA, again, need to die. All of them for what they do. But their aims and reasoning have nothing to do with the core views of the religion. Nor do they claim it to be. Whereas jihadis say, WE DO THIS FOR ALLAH!

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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

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easel

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Re: Christian militants kill U.K soldiers
Reply #17 - Mar 10^th, 2009 at 2:00pm

Brits redeployed SRR before Irish started fighting back.

Ironic Calanen that you write RIRA need to die.

Whoever it is fighting in that part of the world compare it to, say, Australia getting swamped by Muslims and Aussies fighting back with guerrilla tactics because it is the only means available.

In that situation would (what you would consider to be) Aussie Patriots deserve to die, all of them for what they do?

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abu_rashid

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Re: Christian militants kill U.K soldiers
Reply #18 - Mar 10^th, 2009 at 3:23pm

Quote:

It's nationalism not bloody religious crap.

easel, read the small sign on the right.

"Our faith and our nationality".

You can claim to you're blue in the face it's not about religion just nationalism, but they themselves say it's about both.

Calanen,

Quote:

It's a fight over land which happens to be between two groups of difference race and religious identity.

Ahhh, like Palestine/Israel you mean?

Quote:

The war is not being fought for the global christian jihad, unlike the war of jihad for Islam. Their goal (even though the methods are deplorable and they should be strung up and shot) is to get Britain out of Ireland. Not get all people of other religions out of the whole world, and impose catholic law on the whole world.

The goals of many diferent groups in many different conflicts differ. Hamas for instance want to establish a Palestinian state only. Most Iraqi insurgent groups want to liberate Iraq only. I know you've got this paranoid conspiracy going that all Muslims are out or world domination, and to subjugate you into dhimmitude, but it's just a fantasy. Yes there are a few groups who are working towards such things, just as there's groups amongst the West who seek to bring the rest of the world under their influence, this is nothing new, and certainly not unique to Islam. And in fact those Muslim groups working for these kinds of aims are fighting those superpowers who've tried to assert that kind of influence also.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Christian militants kill U.K soldiers
Reply #19 - Mar 10^th, 2009 at 4:14pm

abu - you still have not given the quote/s from the bible these people use to justify their actions .
Or their spiritual leader that they follow

do they go around targetting nonchristians ?
Do they put clips of executions on the net, terrorisiing everyone else ?
Do they seek a world under ira control ?

but, thanks for your honesty Quote:

.....and to subjugate you into dhimmitude, but it's just a fantasy. Yes there are a few groups who are working towards such things........

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easel

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Re: Christian militants kill U.K soldiers
Reply #20 - Mar 10^th, 2009 at 4:20pm

I'll argue it until I'm pink in the face.

It's not about religion.

'our country our faith'

They consider their country england. They consider their faith Church of england. It's english wanting to keep control of Ireland.

The Palestine struggle was easier to support when it didn't become Islamic and was nationalist.

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Calanen

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Re: Christian militants kill U.K soldiers
Reply #21 - Mar 10^th, 2009 at 8:31pm

easel wrote on Mar 10^th, 2009 at 2:00pm:

Brits redeployed SRR before Irish started fighting back.

Ironic Calanen that you write RIRA need to die.

Whoever it is fighting in that part of the world compare it to, say, Australia getting swamped by Muslims and Aussies fighting back with guerrilla tactics because it is the only means available.

In that situation would (what you would consider to be) Aussie Patriots deserve to die, all of them for what they do?

Hypotheticals about Australia being swamped with muslims have nothing to do with the very complex problem of Northern Ireland.

Terrorism as a tactic is NOT the only means available. Look at Ghandi and India? And also, the IRA and Sinn Fein signed a peace treaty, so the Real IRA doesn't get to just go and blow people up in violation of that.

That IED they made was 130kgs in a car, that is enormous. It was parked near a school. It didn't go off, but it could have.

You can make all the arguments you want about how the Real IRA are just proud patriots. But they are murdering thugs that don't give a toss about anyone, and will blow a bomb up in the middle of civilians if they think it will do them any good. Like the Omagh bombing.

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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Christian militants kill U.K soldiers
Reply #22 - Mar 10^th, 2009 at 8:34pm

easel wrote on Mar 10^th, 2009 at 1:51pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 10^th, 2009 at 1:44pm:

And the Catholic Irish have fought for their faith almost since the rise of English Protestantism. Attending Mass was until recently considered not only a religious obligation but also an act of defiant patriotism.

What do you know about Halloween?

It's nationalism not bloody religious crap.

It's not about faith. It is about Irish people being mistreated, having their lands stolen, persecuted, starved, underpaid, losing self determination, amongst many other things, thanks to the English.

And what do you know about cultural memory?

Sure its about nationalism, but Irish cultural memory stretches back to Cromwell's new model army and his murderous attempt to decatholicise Ireland... The Irish (almost) lost their language but they fought for the faith of their fathers and the struggle has had a religious dimension ever since.

However this latest attack has been condemned on both sides and has little chance of derailing the peace process, because the survival of Irish identity no longer depends on religion and armed struggle to survive.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Christian militants kill U.K soldiers
Reply #23 - Mar 10^th, 2009 at 8:46pm

Calanen - Quote:

You can make all the arguments you want about how the Real IRA are just proud patriots. But they are murdering thugs that don't give a toss about anyone, and will blow a bomb up in the middle of civilians if they think it will do them any good. Like the Omagh bombing.

When anyone uses violence to "further a cause", to me the cause loses a LOT of credit.

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Christian militants kill U.K soldiers Reply #24 - Mar 10^th, 2009 at 9:39pm Quote: Hypotheticals about Australia being swamped with muslims... Hypothetical? I thought it was well under way?
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easel

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Re: Christian militants kill U.K soldiers
Reply #25 - Mar 10^th, 2009 at 10:53pm

Calanen wrote on Mar 10^th, 2009 at 8:31pm:

Hypotheticals about Australia being swamped with muslims have nothing to do with the very complex problem of Northern Ireland.

Terrorism as a tactic is NOT the only means available. Look at Ghandi and India? And also, the IRA and Sinn Fein signed a peace treaty, so the Real IRA doesn't get to just go and blow people up in violation of that.

That IED they made was 130kgs in a car, that is enormous. It was parked near a school. It didn't go off, but it could have.

You can make all the arguments you want about how the Real IRA are just proud patriots. But they are murdering thugs that don't give a toss about anyone, and will blow a bomb up in the middle of civilians if they think it will do them any good. Like the Omagh bombing.

Yeah Sinn Fein and the PIRA sold out and bent over to the English system. As far as I am aware, it was only the PIRA that signed on.

I reckon if they wanted the IED to go off it would have. Ghandi and India isn't the same. It is a closer comparison when comparing a swamping of Muslims coming to Australia.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Mar 10^th, 2009 at 8:46pm:

When anyone uses violence to "further a cause", to me the cause loses a LOT of credit.

What if nothing else works?

They didn't have a choice in the matter, anyway.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Christian militants kill U.K soldiers
Reply #26 - Mar 11^th, 2009 at 2:14am

The ‘look a Gandhi’ argument is always a good laugh. As if the British abandoned the jewel in the crown of the Empire because a little peacenik wrapped in a sheet told them to leave. It was either leave while the getting was good or risk being crushed by a probable war of independence or at least massive armed struggle... And that following on from WW2.

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Yadda

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Re: Christian militants kill U.K soldiers
Reply #27 - Mar 11^th, 2009 at 9:32am

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 10^th, 2009 at 1:04pm:

Quote:

".....Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

It's all empty rhetoric though isn't it.

You don't honestly believe in this, because if you did, you'd be opposing the U.S & Australian use of the "sword" in Iraq and Afghanistan and all the other uses of the "sword" they've engaged in over the past few decades. But you don't, because you support it, and the doctrine of "A just war" has a long history in Christianity. So it's all good and well to claim to be all peaceful, now it's just the *practise* part you need to learn.

And I'm sure... both Protestants and Catholics in in Ireland, believe they've been fighting a "Just war" against the other. Just like Muslim militias believe they're fighting just wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Very few people actually goto war thinking they're fighting an "unjust war".

abu,

I don't agree with your proposition made here.

BUT....
Even if 'Christian' nations felt justified in going to war, which they sometimes do,

there is no comparison between the examples of [the consequences of] wars waged by 'Christian' nations, and the consequences of those wars which have been waged by Allah's finest.

And it could be argued that all of the recent wars conducted by 'Christian' nations, have been conducted by the 'secular state(s)' [without any religious motives], and not by a religious state.

Take WWI & WWII, waged by 'Christian' nations.

The 'Christian' allied nations may have felt aggrieved enough to fight "A just war", but their conduct as victors, vindicates our claim that our 'Christian' culture, while not perfect, is not oppressive.

In the example of WWII, when the 'Christian' nations, led by the USA and Britain eventually prevailed, the have not stayed as occupiers of either Germany, or Japan.

And while it could be argued that Germany was a 'Christian' nation, Japan certainly was not.

Although the USA, as the conqueror, imposed political reforms on Japan, the USA did not seek to destroy the cultural mores of the Japanese culture, and did not seek to impose 'Christianity' upon Japan.

Today, Germany & Japan, are self governing, homogeneous states, that have largely retained all of their base culture, though these nations were both occupied by the 'Christian' allies after their defeat in WWII.

'Christian' nations are not totalitarian and tyranical.

abu,

Where is the example of ISLAM as benevolent victors?

There is no example.

ISLAMS doctrines, teach the supremacism of ISLAM - NOTHING MORE.

History demonstrates, ISLAMISTS have always been oppressive, cruel, victors [if you dismiss the self aggrandising historical accounts of the muslims themselves!].

ISLAM is a mono-culture, which imposes its own values upon all subjugated people.

The touted 'benevolence' of ISLAM is a lie.

ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

In truth, ISLAM is an example political fascism,
....a fascism hiding behind a 'veil', portraying itself as a religion.

Google,
examples critics of muhammad assassinated
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&ei=9vK2Sd6OK4mQtQOK5pXmCA&sa=X&oi=spell&re...

Developing this theme, the criticism, and self-criticism, of ISLAM......

The Koran states...... that Mohammed is a wonderful example for all muslims to follow.
.....[that fact that Mohammed himself received this 'revelation' from Allah, about his own virtue, is worth considering]

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. "

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/033.qmt.html#033.021

And today, muslims are encouraged to emulate Mohammed's life values and actions.

Yet, the reality is, that Mohammed was a ruthless, **deceptive**, 7th century warlord, a slave-trader, a mass murderer, a man who readily assassinated several of his critics.

Example....
Deception, the assassination of a critic, Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf....

In this Hadith, Muhammad himself sets the example, for the murder of Allah's 'enemies' [Muhammad's critics!],

"Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who *has hurt Allah* and His Apostle?"....."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.0...

This was a straight out *political* assassination!

We could also ask, how could a mere man, Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf [as stated in the Hadith], have *hurt* Allah, who is supposedly an all powerful god?

Well, isn't Allah all powerful?

Or is ISLAM just a mafia gang of malcontent's, who hate their critics - to death ?

And many, many, muslims in the world today, willingly follow Mohammed's example - of murdering [ISLAM's] critics....

London cartoon protests.

Muslims, teaching their children, ISLAMIC values [London]

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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abu_rashid

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Re: Christian militants kill U.K soldiers
Reply #28 - Mar 11^th, 2009 at 10:26am

Quote:

In the example of WWII, when the 'Christian' nations, led by the USA and Britain eventually prevailed, the have not stayed as occupiers of either Germany, or Japan

Japan was occupied after WWII, some parts of it physically up until 1971, and even today over 47.000 U.S troops still remain in Japan (more than in Afghanistan), but it's not occupied... of course not... shhhh don't tell anyone anyway.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Christian militants kill U.K soldiers
Reply #29 - Mar 11^th, 2009 at 10:38am

As for Germany:

Quote:

The Occupation Statute of Germany (German: Besatzungsstatut) of April 10, 1949 specified the roles and responsabilities of the newly created German government and the Allied High Commission in West Germany. It was drawn up by American, British, and French representatives and was in rule until the Treaties of Paris (1954) came into power on May 5, 1955.

The statute's authors were United States Secretary of State Dean Acheson, British Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs Ernest Bevin, and the French Prime Minister Robert Schuman, who deliberated for eight days in intensive conferences in Washington, DC. It gave Germany conditional sovereignty and admitted it into the Marshall Plan organization as an equal partner. The Allies retained the right to keep occupational forces in the country and complete control over disarmament, demilitarization, related fields of scientific research, reparations, the Ruhr, decartelization, displaced persons and refugees, protection, prestige and security of the occupying forces, foreign affairs, and foreign trade and exchange

Not occupied either... of course not.

Well not after 1990 (officially anyway):

Quote:

The Treaty on the Final Settlement With Respect to Germany (or the Two Plus Four Agreement)[1] was negotiated in 1990 between the Federal Republic of Germany (FRG), the German Democratic Republic (GDR), and the Four Powers which occupied Germany at the end of World War II in Europe: France, the United Kingdom, the United States of America, and the Soviet Union (USSR).

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