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Busfire - GREENIES TO BLAME (Read 27264 times)
freediver
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Re: Busfire - GREENIES TO BLAME
Reply #45 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 7:06am
 
Quote:
If Grendel does find references will you concede the point (I assume it's the one about Greens doing preference deals to influence policy)?


If he finds enough evidence yes. 'References' is a vague term and he tends to come up with other people making the same unsubstantiated comments as him and pretending that is evidence. The point is not about Greens doing preference deals. Of course they do that. They are a political party. The claim I would like to see evidence for is that 'greenies' prevent sound forest management policies from being implemented.
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pjb05
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Re: Busfire - GREENIES TO BLAME
Reply #46 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 7:32am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 7:06am:
Quote:
If Grendel does find references will you concede the point (I assume it's the one about Greens doing preference deals to influence policy)?


If he finds enough evidence yes. 'References' is a vague term and he tends to come up with other people making the same unsubstantiated comments as him and pretending that is evidence. The point is not about Greens doing preference deals. Of course they do that. They are a political party. The claim I would like to see evidence for is that 'greenies' prevent sound forest management policies from being implemented.


Do you concede that the nature of the evidence is likely to be circumstantial? Are you going to dismiss circumstantial evidence as 'unsubstantiated'?
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freediver
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Re: Busfire - GREENIES TO BLAME
Reply #47 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 7:42am
 
The nature of the evidence presented so far is cirumstantial. It is also very second hand. I find it hard to believe there would be a strong enough 'green' movement preventing effective fire management, but not a single environmental organisation whose policies reflect this.
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pjb05
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Re: Busfire - GREENIES TO BLAME
Reply #48 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 7:56am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 7:42am:
The nature of the evidence presented so far is cirumstantial. It is also very second hand. I find it hard to believe there would be a strong enough 'green' movement preventing effective fire management, but not a single environmental organisation whose policies reflect this.


So you are not going to accept circumstantial evidence?

Note there a moves afoot to sue the government over inaffective fire management.
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skippy
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Re: Busfire - GREENIES TO BLAME
Reply #49 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 8:33am
 
pjb05 wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 6:31am:
freediver wrote on Feb 15th, 2009 at 10:41pm:
In other words, you make up stuff, and its up to others to chase up the facts? Should we assume this about everything you post?


If Grendel does find references will you concede the point (I assume it's the one about Greens doing preference deals to influence policy)?


Before you write bulls hit you should check your facts, tha Greens at the last election swapped preferences on a a seat by seat basis, fmd, why must I deal with such uninformed tryhards.
All small parties do deals to influence policy, dont you know that?
They do deals with which ever party will give them the most chance of winning a seat, dont you know that?
I'd also like to point out  the uninformed here like to use the word GREENS whenever refering to conservation issues, a very handy way of trying to tie in the greens political party to any conservation rullings by council, please if you dont know what you're on about, pizz off and say nothing.
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Re: Busfire - GREENIES TO BLAME
Reply #50 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 9:39am
 
Quote:
So you are not going to accept circumstantial evidence?

Note there a moves afoot to sue the government over inaffective fire management.


So they should.  The government's poor management has nothing to do with the Greens.  Why don't you read the ENRC report with its findings and recommendations?  It's 2 or 3 pages, so too long to post here, but their main findings were this.

A major reason for the debate surrounding the appropriate extent of prescribed burning on public land is the level of concern within the community about its perceived environmental impacts. For example, a number of stakeholders expressed concerns that current levels and methods of prescribed burning on public land are harmful to the environment.

Conversely, other stakeholders argued that Victoria’s biodiversity is threatened by the infrequency of current fire regimes. Inadequate resource allocation, particularly of personnel, was cited by a number of stakeholders as a constraint on the level of prescribed burning. A related argument was that there has been a loss, from DSE in particular, of the knowledge required to maintain an adequate broad-scale prescribed burning program. The Committee concurs with these stakeholders and recommends a substantial increase in funding to engage skilled fire management personnel dedicated to undertaking prescribed burning activities.

Other factors include: the various practical constraints on the conduct of prescribed burning; incomplete scientific knowledge; incomplete records;and a lack of certainty regarding the most appropriate way to evaluate the prescribed burning program. In the Committee’s view, there is significant potential for ongoing progress in each of these areas to reduce the relative influence of diverging values on the prescribed burning debate.


http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/enrc/inquiries/bushfires/Report/Bushfires_June_...
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Grendel
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Re: Busfire - GREENIES TO BLAME
Reply #51 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 11:17am
 
Hey skippy...  what's the difference between green and GREENS?

Grin
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Grendel
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Re: Busfire - GREENIES TO BLAME
Reply #52 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 11:44am
 
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22656009-5012863,00.html
Quote:
LABOR has lost its chance of securing Family First preferences after moving to stitch up a deal with the Greens.

Greens leader Bob Brown yesterday said a deal to swap preferences with Labor in all states except Tasmania was close to being finalised.

"We're working very hard and we're coming very close to getting a preference arrangement for a swap with the Labor Party," Senator Brown said.


Quote:
"It virtually hands the Greens the balance of power in the Senate and control of everything that happens in Australia, which is horrifying," he said.

Senator Fielding said Family First was willing to do a preference deal with the major parties, but Labor walked away from negotiations because they preferred the Greens.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/29/2072639.htm

Quote:
Australian Greens leader Bob Brown says his party is moving towards a deal which would see Labor give preferences to the Greens in the Senate.

However, he says it is the first time the Greens in Tasmania will not be directing preferences to either Labor or the Liberals because of both parties' support for the pulp mill and old-growth logging.

Senator Abetz, the Minister for Fisheries, Forestry and Conservation, says voters should remember Tasmania's Labor-Green accord.

"People left the state, investment collapsed, the young people lost confidence in Tasmania and they went to the mainland," he said.

"If that were to happen Australia-wide people would have to leave the country and that's not the sort of future I want for Australia."


Quote:
But Senator Brown has dismissed the reference to the accord, which Senator Abetz says saw unemployment skyrocket and investment collapse, saying the Greens have alternatives.


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freediver
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Re: Busfire - GREENIES TO BLAME
Reply #53 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 11:54am
 
See what I mean PJ, plenty of 'evidence', but nothing about actual fire management.

Quote:
So you are not going to accept circumstantial evidence?


This isn't a courtroom PJ. The evidence is what it is.
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Grendel
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Re: Busfire - GREENIES TO BLAME
Reply #54 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 12:32pm
 
http://www.liberal.org.au/news.php?Id=1535

Quote:
Greens / Labor deal - cut BMW tax, increase Aussie cars tax

“And the fact that Labor have signed up to this deal with the Greens demonstrates that all Mr Rudd’s rhetoric about being interested in the car industry is vacuous spin.


http://www.smh.com.au/news/environment/nsw-greens-hitch-wagon-to-labor-with-deal-on-election-preferences/2007/03/10/1173478729140.html

Quote:
THE Greens yesterday recommended that their voters give preferences to Labor candidates in 24 marginal seats, virtually gifting the state election to Premier Morris Iemma.

Quote:
The deal is bound to cause widespread anger in Green ranks where there is massive opposition to Labor's $2 billion desalination plant and pro-developer policies.


http://www.greenleft.org.au/1995/210/10834

Quote:
New Green-Labor accord?
7 November 1995
By Ben Courtice HOBART -- Some members of the state Labor Opposition want to leave open the option of entering a new alliance with the Green Party after the next state election, due in February 1996. However, Opposition leader Michael Field insists he will make no such deal. This has revived the debate about the Green-Labor accord formed in 1989 when the Greens won five seats and Labor 13 out of a house of 35. In return for promises by Labor to save some wilderness areas, the Greens supported a harsh budget which included health and education cuts. The accord finally broke down when Labor introduced resource security legislation to ensure access to natural resources for mining and logging companies. However, the Greens had already tarnished their public image and they suffered a large drop in their vote in the 1992 elections, which were won by the Liberals. While Field has stated that Labor's policy is to govern in its own right or not at all, former state ALP president Leo Brown has said that Labor might rethink its policy towards the Greens if the electorate rejects the Liberals at the next elections. This is probably because recent polls show the Greens attracting around 16% support around the state and 22% in the south. It looks likely that they will retain their five seats, and possibly gain second seats in the electorates of Denison and Franklin.
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Grendel
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Re: Busfire - GREENIES TO BLAME
Reply #55 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 12:40pm
 
yawn....  you'll need more time than I've got to find the itsy bitsy details fd...  I note the media article from a few years back re the access trail to electricity towers which GREENS protested against and had regreened is no longer available that and the fact that the part still denuded save fauna from the bushfire at the time.  But it was a big story at the time...  one you appear ignorant of.

If you want to see the effect of G policy look at the ACT.  Remember those fires.  I guess not.
But for more detail you'd need to look at councils with green representation on them.  I mean apart from the well known State NSW Labor gov under Carr...  If you looked at those councils minutes you'd get a record of voting and where policy and amendments come from.
Unfortunately I can't be bothered ringing round every such council just for you.  Mind you your so ignorant and biased you wouldn't believe me anyway.

Like I said do your own research.  I'm not sitting here all day to do your work for you.

Quote:
Brown was directing the Business Council, which represents Australia’s 200 biggest corporations, to the use by the Tasmanian Greens of their parliamentary “balance of power” to enter into a formal accord with the state Labor government. The accord specified that the Labor government would protect Tasmania’s forests in return for Greens support for the government’s budget. The outcome of the accord was a state budget that slashed jobs, cut back on public transport and attacked public education
.

Oh and I note you still have 2 major problems...  reading between the lines and understanding consequences.
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« Last Edit: Feb 16th, 2009 at 12:47pm by Grendel »  
 
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Re: Busfire - GREENIES TO BLAME
Reply #56 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 1:10pm
 
You can hardly compare protecting forests in Tasmania from logging to restricting backburning in Victoria.

Your initial comment was right as far as there being some green influence in the communities affected in regard to ecological destruction through backburning, but no "Australian Greens" influence.  Your references above are just grasping at straws.  Of course there have been some deals made with the Greens, but there is nothing to indicate they had anything to do with backburning.

BTW - who voted for Fielding?  Answer - no-one.  He's only there through default and landed his cushy job through Liberal/National preferences.  

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Re: Busfire - GREENIES TO BLAME
Reply #57 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 1:13pm
 
http://www.coagbushfireenquiry.gov.au/subs_html/david_packham.html

I'll leave it to you to guess what colour the minority groups and politics involved are.  Roll Eyes
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Re: Busfire - GREENIES TO BLAME
Reply #58 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 1:35pm
 
Quote:
yawn....  you'll need more time than I've got to find the itsy bitsy details fd...


As I thought, this is just another empty headed 'they are conspiring against us' rant against the Greens and Labor. To you blocking effective forest management is an itsy bitsy detail. To everyone else, that is what this thread is about. Perhaps you should start a new thread do dump that crap.

Quote:
If you want to see the effect of G policy look at the ACT.  Remember those fires.  I guess not.


How about we start with the actual policy, before you try ascribing effects to it?

Quote:
Like I said do your own research.  I'm not sitting here all day to do your work for you.


I'm just asking you to back up your claims, instead of trying to pass the main subject of this thread off as 'itsy bitsy detail' in favour of your partisan political agenda.

Grendel you appear to be throwing the facts out the window so you can take advantage of this tragedy to score cheap political points.
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Re: Busfire - GREENIES TO BLAME
Reply #59 - Feb 16th, 2009 at 2:51pm
 
Grendel wrote on Feb 16th, 2009 at 11:17am:
Hey skippy...  what's the difference between green and GREENS?

Grin


The question wasn't addressed to me, but I'll give my two cents. Not everything espoused by the Greens is totally green. Their stance on nuclear power for example will just mean that we'll rely on coal for that bit longer.

Actually it wouldn't surprise me if some of the causal factors behind the bushfires were 'deep green' in colour. It's the old adage of people doing what they think is the right thing without thinking it through properly.

The danger is that people will throw out the baby with the bathwater. We need to have a reasoned risk-based approach to this issue - not a knee-jerk reaction.
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