Australian Politics Forum - Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated Reply #15 - Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 9:42am freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 8:49am: How does secularism protect religions? What is free exercise of religion?
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freediver

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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #16 - Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 9:55am

I expect free speech would be enough to kill off Islam, and there is nothing about secularism that protects religion from criticism. Religion has never been a defence when people's actions cross into the illegal or start affecting other people. However, we must also leave open the option of reform from within Islam, which you cannot achieve by making the religion itself illegal. Once we start doing that, we aren't much better than the Muslims. The political aspects of Islam will recieve no more protection here than the political aspects of Nazism. In many ways its competition with Christianity will ensure that. It was active Christians who raised awareness of the issue here. There are far more vested interests opposed to Islam than opposed to purely political ideologies.

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Soren

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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #17 - Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 9:55am

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 8:49am:

How does secularism protect religions?

Secularism is a Christian idea, as is the concept that reason is divine. Combining the separation of church and state, public affairs and private conscience as well as promoting reason as the only final arbiter in public matters has led to liberal democracy, the worst political system - except all the others. It is able to adapt, self-correcthas declared certain rights fundamental - life, liberty, rule of law (the public operation of reason) and so forth. It is not anti-Christian or anti-religion. The opposite of secularism is theocracy.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #18 - Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 10:14am

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 9:55am:

I expect free speech would be enough to kill off Islam, and there is nothing about secularism that protects religion from criticism. Religion has never been a defence when people's actions cross into the illegal or start affecting other people. However, we must also leave open the option of reform from within Islam, which you cannot achieve by making the religion itself illegal. Once we start doing that, we aren't much better than the Muslims. The political aspects of Islam will recieve no more protection here than the political aspects of Nazism. In many ways its competition with Christianity will ensure that. It was active Christians who raised awareness of the issue here. There are far more vested interests opposed to Islam than opposed to purely political ideologies.

It is not protection from criticism which is the crux... It is the protection of worshippers' right to express their religious beliefs that is the point. Our secularist system of government defends that right and in so doing defends the right of Islam to exist in Australia.

Islamism could be declared a subversive political ideology incompatible with secularist ideals that requires monitoring (and if necessary constraint) in the same way other extremist ideologies are monitored and constrained - The extrication of Islamism from the practice of Islamic worship being the goal. The diabolic detail will be in the definition of what constitutes Islamism as distinct from Islamic worship.

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freediver

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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #19 - Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 10:31am

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Our secularist system of government defends that right and in so doing defends the right of Islam to exist in Australia.

Our secularist system of government also defends the right of people to form political parties that oppose our system of government. The fact that Islam is better organised than most extremist political parties does necessarily make it illegal. This is another one of those tests of freedom. We have to let people freely choose between our system and the alternatives. If we don't then our freedom is an illusion. Islam must fall because people reject it, not because the government rejects it.

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The diabolic detail will be in the definition of what constitutes Islamism as distinct from Islamic worship.

You would just end up chasing your tail. There are already Muslim terrorists in Australia to worry about. They know when their actions cross over into the illegal and they go underground as is necessary. All the diabolical aspects are already illegal in some way. You don't need any new laws. You don't need any laws that are specific to Islam.

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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #20 - Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 10:53am

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 9:55am:

I expect free speech would be enough to kill off Islam, and there is nothing about secularism that protects religion from criticism. Religion has never been a defence when people's actions cross into the illegal or start affecting other people. However, we must also leave open the option of reform from within Islam,

FD,

ISLAM is not open to reform.

ISLAM kills muslims who try to reform ISLAM!!!

You cannot reform a 'crocodile' !

A 'crocodile', is a 'crocodile' !

Allah says [paraphrasing], "Kill those who resist the authority of ISLAM, over their lives."

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......which you cannot achieve by making the religion itself illegal. Once we start doing that, we aren't much better than the Muslims.

Here [above], you are promoting the appeasement of what we perceive to be evil.

Why?

Because we insist that we must consider ourselves to be more tolerant, than those who are 'intolerant' ????

That 'logic', err, is illogical!

"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil."

Thomas Mann
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Mann

Quote:

.......The political aspects of Islam will recieve no more protection here than the political aspects of Nazism. In many ways its competition with Christianity will ensure that. It was active Christians who raised awareness of the issue here. There are far more vested interests opposed to Islam than opposed to purely political ideologies.

FD,

Your wrong.

Your forgetting / ignoring how 'tolerant' we have become.
/sarc off

e.g.

Just look at how authorities in Europe today are folding before every demand being made by muslims.

Authorities in Europe today are PROSECUTING Geert Wilders, because the TRUTH he spoke offends muslims.

Authorities in Europe today are PROSECUTING Geert Wilders, to APPEASE muslims.

".....I'm not a compulsive contrarian. It's just that everyone else is wrong." Grin

i

++++++++

Hadith....

"Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' ...."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.0...

Koran....

Allah's instructions on how to deal with apostates [ex-muslims],

"Allah! There is no god but He: of a surety He will gather you together against the Day of Judgment, about which there is no doubt. And whose word can be truer than Allah's?
Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;- "
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.087
v. 87-89

Allah's instructions on how to deal with 'unbelievers',

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.029

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52839 At my desk.	Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated Reply #21 - Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 11:02am I'm not saying we have to fold to every demand made by Muslims. We must stand up to them. But we must resist the urge to over-react.
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Calanen

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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #22 - Feb 4^th, 2009 at 4:24pm

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 11:02am:

I'm not saying we have to fold to every demand made by Muslims. We must stand up to them. But we must resist the urge to over-react.

And having people in your midst who are committed as a matter of faith to the violent destruction of your society, your religion, your government your heritage to rule over all of us (or kill us) with the use of their society, religion and heritage - just exactly what would you call an over-reaction to such a group of people freedo?

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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52839 At my desk.	Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated Reply #23 - Feb 4^th, 2009 at 4:31pm Anything illegal is an overreaction. Deporting Australian citizens is an overreaction. Denying people the chance to think for themselves is an overeaction. Always remember, it is the ideology that calls for those things. Real people on the other hand are never so simple.
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated Reply #24 - Feb 4^th, 2009 at 5:18pm Then you are ok to start deporting non-citizens and to cancel Australian passports of Dual passport holders. Good. gotta start somewhere.
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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #25 - Feb 4^th, 2009 at 5:57pm

I would start with immigration of people who reject democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of speech etc. There is no need to make this specifically anti-Islamic. Anyone who rejects those things should be rejected, regardless of the reason why. Furthermore, Muslims will give the impression that they support these things. The questions need to be detailed and interrogative, not broad 'do you support our values' BS. There are no doubt plenty of people who consider themselves Muslims but who would choose democracy, freedom of religion and freedom of speech etc over an Islamic Caliphate. I don't have a problem with them.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated Reply #26 - Feb 4^th, 2009 at 6:27pm Why would a Muslim choose freedom of religion? They seek only to have 1 religion... globally. As for those other freedoms... I'm sorry... huge numbers of Muslims have shown contempt for them. Most ME Muslims pray for a Caliphate... even Muslims here do.
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Calanen

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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #27 - Feb 4^th, 2009 at 8:34pm

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2009 at 4:31pm:

Anything illegal is an overreaction. Deporting Australian citizens is an overreaction. Denying people the chance to think for themselves is an overeaction.

Always remember, it is the ideology that calls for those things. Real people on the other hand are never so simple.

So what we needed to do instead of fight Germany in World War II, was reach out to all those moderate Nazis! Would have been much, much easier than doing those nasty D-Day landings and invading Italy.

And real people by the way are MORONS. I see em, every damn day.

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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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freediver

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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #28 - Feb 4^th, 2009 at 8:35pm

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Why would a Muslim choose freedom of religion?

Because they are hypocrits? Because they value the claims of freedom of religion in the Koran more than the various punishments for not being a Muslim. There are all sorts of possible reasons. Reason itself is the main one. Their reason for doing so doesn't really matter.

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So what we needed to do instead of fight Germany in World War II, was reach out to all those moderate Nazis! Would have been much, much easier than doing those nasty D-Day landings and invading Italy.

I was referring to our treatment of Australian citizens, not invading armies.

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Calanen

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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #29 - Feb 4^th, 2009 at 8:38pm

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I would start with immigration of people who reject democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of speech etc. There is no need to make this specifically anti-Islamic.

No. But you would get like the one or two Neonazis a year and a 100,000 muslims or so.

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Anyone who rejects those things should be rejected, regardless of the reason why.

Thinking democracy is crap (which it is) doesnt mean you are committed to overthrowing it. Its the last bit that matters.

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Furthermore, Muslims will give the impression that they support these things. The questions need to be detailed and interrogative, not broad 'do you support our values' BS.

Give me 15 minutes questioning any muslim together with a polygraph operator and you'd know their true colours.

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There are no doubt plenty of people who consider themselves Muslims but who would choose democracy, freedom of religion and freedom of speech etc over an Islamic Caliphate.

Ya think freedoi? Then they wouldnt be muslims now, would they?

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I don't have a problem with them.

The theoretical democratic loving muslims who will not at all, when the proverbial hits the fan, suddenly side with the Ummah Nation of Islam, oh no sir, they will stand right beside secular loving freedo over here. Because *he* supported them. Back at ya big guy.

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Quote:

ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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