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Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated (Read 12654 times)
NorthOfNorth
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Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Feb 2nd, 2009 at 6:26am
 
It’s easy with a secularist mindset to misunderstand the multiple dimensions of the war that may be coming between Islam and the West. Most secularists are inclined to believe that the fight has only one dimension - that between our secularist ideals and Islam. But the focus on that perspective blinds us to another, more significant, context to this war - the battle for the soul.

Islam has traditionally fought only one genre of rivals (when, like Christianity, it’s not distracted by own sectarian and bloody disputes) – that being other religions. Islamists and non-Islamist Muslims alike, I’m sure, don’t see a problem (and currently little traditional resistance) with Islam’s expansionist ideals - if another religion is not claiming the ground, they no doubt reason, then why should Islam constrain its advance into abandoned territory?

Secularism doesn’t do battles for the soul- about which it really has no opinion, its appeal is to the mind and leaves religion (albeit the apolitical flavours) not only unchallenged, but defended.

And Islam won’t halt its march nor neither can it, for it’s not in the nature of any proselytizing religion to do so.

There is really only one way to beat it back… Take the whole fight to Islam.

Secularism can’t do it.

Yes, you can kill indiscriminately under the banner of secularism (once the enemy has been defined and demonized for its political motivations) but not in the theatre of religion. You can, however, kill for Christ just as easily as you can for Allah.

To really bring it on, an ancient war cry must be chanted – and meant… “We believe in one God, the Father, Almighty, creator of Heaven and Earth of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, True God from true God, Begotten, not made” & etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

Either that or roll the dice and declare religion itself to be a mortal enemy of secularism and deal to it with extreme prejudice. To invoke, in other words, the spectre of Mao and declare that all religion is poison,

But ten to one the latter will provoke a war between the Religionists and Secularists - an unholy alliance between the soldiers of Christ and Mohammedan hordes.

Because, though any instance may die hard, religion, unfortunately, is forever.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #1 - Feb 2nd, 2009 at 7:41am
 

It's all a clash of ideologies. whether they have religious overtones or not isn't as relevant as you seem to think.

Actually if we look at this in the historical context, it's in fact the Western/Democratic/Capitalist world that is intent on clashing with all contenders. They've spent the last century fighting against their first major foe, the Communists, and established themselves as the dominant ideology. Unfortunately this has left quite a power vacuum, which means that the global political landscape is out of balance, enter Islam. Muslims have been living amongst the West as immigrant populations, and have been adhering to the exact same beliefs, ideology and even the exact same resistance guerilla groups (al-Qaeda et al) existed in the Muslim world for the past century, nobody said a word about there being a clash of Western vs. Islamic civilisation... why not? Because the West was busy with her foe the Communists, and in fact employed those very same militant guerilla movements that she now claims are the epitomy of evil.

Muslims have not really changed much in the past 20 years, it's the West who has changed.  After the fall of the USSR, that's when the finger started  to get pointed at the Muslims, that's when Saddam, a former friend, suddenly became the most evil dictator this side of the Tibetan Plateau, and the once friendly freedom fighters of Afghanistan became the deadliest evilest most dangerous terrorists on earth.

Somebody wants there to be a clash, but it's certainly not the Muslims. Somebody is agitating for global war, but it's not the Muslims. Somebody believes armageddon is near, and the Jews must "return to Zion", and there must be a huge clash with the "infidels", but it's not the Muslims. Somebody is invading country after country, calling people an axis of evil and demonising them daily in their media. Arming occupationist regimes that expel them from their homes, slaughtering civilians by the tens of thousands, committing unspeakable war crimes all over the planet, and it's not the Muslims. Yes we all know about the isolated retaliation attacks that occured, but really they don't even come close to the numbers of Muslims who've been displaced, murdered, tortured, raped, wounded etc. by the Dominant world ideology, the 'clash-seeker' in the past 20 or so years. And a lot of it happened long before 9/11, so using the typical argument that it's all in response to that is invalid, as tens of thousands, if not more Muslims were already slaughtered by the 'clash-seeker' and her proxies prior to that date, hundreds of thousands more were wounded, left damaged and deformed by DU and other nasties, made homeless, limbless, disabled etc.

It's quite easy for people on either side to claim "They [the faceless other] were hostile and barbaric and uncivilised by nature, we were justified in fighting/obliterating them", but those are the words and sentiments of the 'clash-seekers'. Are you a 'clash-seeker' helian?
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mozzaok
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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #2 - Feb 2nd, 2009 at 8:09am
 
As usual, Helian raises some very interesting issues, and opens up new facets for consideration, in an area where our thinking, can be very constrained.

What a perversity it would be, to see other religions uniting with Islam, to resist attempts by secular governments, to curtail the more extreme religious elements within our society from continually seeking to expand their means, and areas of influence.

As the threat that Islam presents to the world becomes more apparent, and more widely accepted, we will no doubt see even more cynical manipulation of western freedoms, to attempt to restrain the voices of reason that seek to warn of Islam's growing militancy, and expansionist agenda.

Unfortunately for the west, the cynical hypocrisy of Islam, whereby it uses freedoms that Islam itself, does not offer, or believe in, to effectively hamstring any opposition to it, and actually gets away with it's false portrayal of victimhood, rather than as the aggressor in the global battle for religious superiority.

Now if Islam were just a religion, and we were just talking about what people take on board as their personal spirituality, then non religious people would not really care, one way or the other.
But the fact is that Islam is far more than just a spiritual philosophy, it is a theocratic, political regime, with megalomanic goals, which the rest of the world can not afford to overlook, and hope it just goes away.

To understand the potential seriousness of this issue, you need to look to a country like Pakistan, a political, and religious basket case, straining under factional fighting, competing terrorist groups, and corrupt government.
Pakistan is an Islamic country, and it is nuclear armed, and close to the chinese, whose tolerance for potential threats would be far less restrained, than what we could expect from western governments, if the fragile structure that holds the country together, finally broke down.

We see these competing factions within Islam, whose hatred of the west, is only surpassed by their hatred of each other, and the thought of people like that, controlling nuclear weapons, is untenable, yet we see Iran, both denying it is, and justifying why it should, be allowed to go nuclear also.
Frankly, I find the prospect, of any Islamic power at all, controlling nuclear weapons, very troubling.

So we all knew that this whole issue is complex, but just how many different factors do come into play?
How many potential, 'Nightmare', scenarios exist?
One aspect I do take comfort in, is knowing that the factions within Islam, will almost certainly stop it from ever putting forward a united front.
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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #3 - Feb 2nd, 2009 at 9:25am
 
Are you trying to say that you are choosing a side Helian?

Secularism has won many battles, including against Christianity, without prompting Christians and Muslims to team up against it. Religion fights for the soul. Secularism fights for the mind. When the French cried liberty, they were chanting the secularist war cry. Even though most of them happened to be Christian as well. Only Islam seems incapable of fighting for the soul while loosing the shackles on the mind. Maybe it too will change.

Quote:
Muslims have not really changed much in the past 20 years


Don't you mean 1400?

Quote:
After the fall of the USSR, that's when the finger started  to get pointed at the Muslims


I'd say it was after the fall of the twin towers.

Quote:
And a lot of it happened long before 9/11, so using the typical argument that it's all in response to that is invalid, as tens of thousands, if not more Muslims were already slaughtered by the 'clash-seeker' and her proxies prior to that date


But according to you, everyone who does the wrong thing is a proxy of the west. Even when Shites and Sunnis bomb each others mosques, it is the west's fault, because 'they started it'.

Quote:
Somebody wants there to be a clash, but it's certainly not the Muslims.


Islam tried to conquer the world politically with the sword. No other religion did. Saying that it has been losing for the last few centuries is not the same as saying that it hasn't been seeking a clash. It's just that it displays a hint of rationality, or self preservation, in trying to end war when it is on the losing side. Islam has never, ever tried to end war when it was on the winning side. The west has.

Abu you claim that the actions of Muslim countries over the last century cannot be attributed to Islam because they weren't Caliphates. Likewise, actions against these countries cannot be attributed to an attack on Islam. We are in the process of replacing Saddam with a democratic government. This is neither for nor against Islam. It's just that Islam likes to throw itself in the way of any gun that is being fired.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #4 - Feb 2nd, 2009 at 10:17am
 

freediver wrote on Feb 2nd, 2009 at 9:25am:
Are you trying to say that you are choosing a side Helian?

Secularism has won many battles, including against Christianity, without prompting Christians and Muslims to team up against it. Religion fights for the soul. Secularism fights for the mind. When the French cried liberty, they were chanting the secularist war cry. Even though most of them happened to be Christian as well. Only Islam seems incapable of fighting for the soul while loosing the shackles on the mind. Maybe it too will change.

Are you a compulsive contrarian, FD?

When the French cried liberty, they were primarily chanting the war cry of the underclasses against the class system and specifically the aristocracy. Christianity had been on the decline as a social and political force in Europe long before the enlightenment and Islam had no presence or socio-political clout in Europe when the forces of secularism were taking on the (mainly Catholic) theocracies. It is interesting that Turkey, a secular state, requires a standing army prepared to overthrow any government that threatens Turkey's secular status - and this regardless of any popular mandate the government may have from the people.

Some things can't be beaten by appealing to the mind alone.
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freediver
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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #5 - Feb 2nd, 2009 at 11:16am
 
Are you trying to say that you are choosing a side Helian?

I'm not a compulsive contrarian. It's just that everyone else is wrong.
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Yadda
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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #6 - Feb 2nd, 2009 at 11:20am
 
If we [the West] want to defeat ISLAM, we must confront the TRUTH.
....but i'm not optimistic!

Today, the West is corrupt, and hates TRUTH, and turns away from it, whenever TRUTH conflicts with its commercial interests.



Listen to what this wonderful, TRUTHFUL woman says....

"It is a clash between civilisation, and backwardness......between barbarity, and rationality....."

"Wafa Sultan Slapping some Fanatics"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQu9lbqBDgw





ISLAM can not be defeated until we collectively, and culturally, acknowledge the TRUTH of what ISLAM is.
.....i.e. PURE EVIL.

And we, and our 'leaders', keep denying that TRUTH.

Why?




Want a picture of where we are going, of what our future is?

Look at Europe today,

"Pat Condell - Shame on The Netherlands"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJKRF2uB8xU






I have previously stated on Oz Pol how i believe ISLAM should be treated within all Western host countries, [stated here]......


It should be our governments policy,

       
  • to destroy all mosques,
       
  • deport all imam's,
       
  • and to deport any [and every] person who claims to practice, and follow, the political philosophy called, ISLAM.


"Israel accused over Gaza wounded"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1231430119/10#10







"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil."

Thomas Mann
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Mann




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« Last Edit: Feb 2nd, 2009 at 12:08pm by Yadda »  

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Yadda
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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #7 - Feb 2nd, 2009 at 11:26am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 2nd, 2009 at 11:16am:
....I'm not a compulsive contrarian. It's just that everyone else is wrong.



LOL !!!!





p.s.

I was once a free diver too, in South Aust., many yrs ago.

See!! FD, we have so much in common!     Grin    Grin    Grin



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« Last Edit: Feb 2nd, 2009 at 11:52am by Yadda »  

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Grendel
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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #8 - Feb 2nd, 2009 at 12:20pm
 
Good grief!

I’m sure we’ve had a discussion on secularism and religion before. I’m also sure we came to the conclusion that secularism isn’t atheism.  After all the modern “father” of secularism, Holyoake was an agnostic. Holyoake invented the term "secularism" to describe his views of promoting a social order separate from religion, without actively dismissing or criticizing religious belief.  How very agnostic of him.

"Secularism is not an argument against Christianity, it is one independent of it.”

Whereas Christianity has had its reformation/s and secularism is the norm in most “Christian” societies, in Islam, most notably the Arab countries, secularism cannot be allowed to exist.  Islam is not just a religion it is a way of life encompassing all aspects of it.  Hence it cannot exist and be separate from the social order.  Few Islamic nations have a secular society where government is not religion oriented.  The drive against secularism and democracy is from Islam and particularly the Middle East.

Even here we have seen support and call for a Caliphate.  This is the goal of many Islamic groups such as Al Qaeda.

Having read the rants from such groups, groups supported widely in the Ummah, one can only think that jealousy and shame are the primary drivers of these movements.  Jealousy of the West, because of its global dominance in so many areas of life and hence the cries of victim-hood to hide the shame felt because of their fall from dominance.

It is easier for a Muslim to blame others for their plight than to accept responsibility for it.

“Muslims have not really changed much in the past 20 years, it's the West who has changed.  After the fall of the USSR, that's when the finger started  to get pointed at the Muslims, that's when Saddam, a former friend, suddenly became the most evil dictator this side of the Tibetan Plateau, and the once friendly freedom fighters of Afghanistan became the deadliest evilest most dangerous terrorists on earth.”

Clearly rubbish.

“Somebody wants there to be a clash, but it's certainly not the Muslims. Somebody is agitating for global war, but it's not the Muslims. Somebody believes armageddon is near, and the Jews must "return to Zion", and there must be a huge clash with the "infidels", but it's not the Muslims.”

More rubbish.

As for the rest…  how much baseless brainless propaganda  do Muslims actually believe?

I’m pretty certain if there is to be a final conflict, then it will be between Islam and the rest.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #9 - Feb 2nd, 2009 at 12:31pm
 
The problem will emerge in those societies where the Muslim population nears a majority. This will be when there is going to be a final conflict whereby secularism will fail those who fear Islamic socio-political dominance. Then there will be the choice of the Fiji dilemma or an ideology that allows discrimination or killing based on religious belief as opposed to responding only to purely political deviance. And what better genre of ideology to get the job done than another religion?
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Yadda
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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #10 - Feb 2nd, 2009 at 12:54pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Feb 2nd, 2009 at 12:31pm:
The problem will emerge in those societies where the Muslim population nears a majority
. This will be when there is going to be a final conflict whereby secularism will fail those who fear Islamic socio-political dominance. Then there will be the choice of the Fiji dilemma or an ideology that allows discrimination or killing based on religious belief as opposed to responding only to purely political deviance. And what better genre of ideology to get the job done than another religion?




helian,

Who do you believe ISLAM will seriously confront first, the corrupt and appeasing, weakened 'democracies' of Europe, or the 'Satan' living within the midst of the ISLAMIC peoples?

Who will be ISLAM's first 'determined', intended 'victim', Europe, or Israel?



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #11 - Feb 2nd, 2009 at 1:06pm
 
Yadda wrote on Feb 2nd, 2009 at 12:54pm:
helian,

Who do you believe ISLAM will seriously confront first, the corrupt and appeasing, weakened 'democracies' of Europe, or the 'Satan' living within the midst of the ISLAMIC peoples?

Who will be ISLAM's first 'determined', intended 'victim', Europe, or Israel?


Islam cannot defeat Europe or Israel by armed struggle. The defeat of the secular West must come from demographic superiority and the democratic process via high birth rate and successful proselytising.
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Yadda
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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #12 - Feb 2nd, 2009 at 1:15pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Feb 2nd, 2009 at 1:06pm:
Islam cannot defeat Europe or Israel by armed struggle. The defeat of the secular West must come from demographic superiority and the democratic process via high birth rate and successful proselytising.



Yes.

"Slowly, slowly catchy monkey."



What does slowly slowly catchy monkey mean? - Yahoo! Answers
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070702095402AAjGj30




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #13 - Feb 2nd, 2009 at 11:28pm
 
Perhaps the West needs to consider Islam and Islamism as inextricable - that there is no such thing as Islam, the religion as distinct from Islamism - the political force... That they are synonymous. Certainly its true that most Muslims are not politically motivated but as there appears to be no mechanism that moderates can engage to decouple Islam's political dimension, they cannot therefore be relied on to assert their moderate views. If Islam is perceived only in the context of a deviant anti-democratic political force, it can then be divested of its protection by secularism.

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Re: Fighting Islam the only way it can be defeated
Reply #14 - Feb 3rd, 2009 at 8:49am
 
How does secularism protect religions?
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