Grendel wrote on Jan 24^th, 2009 at 11:29pm:




Grendel,

If this video is any good, someone will prolly post it on YOUTUBE.

I can't access this switch3 file.

Can anyone post a YOUTUBE link please?





Wafa Sultan.

An amazing, and brave woman.



Please God, protect her.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=HE-ejGWTUMY&feature=related

That is the youtube link Yadda, should play on any machine.
This is a clip from back in august 2006, so you may have seen it before, she basically says to stop calling it a clash of religion, or civilisations, as it is more a clash of civilisation versus backwardness, a clash of mentalities, modern versus medieval, etc.

She has a few videos up, debates with clerics, interviews etc.

That woman rocks, I have never seen anyone express what we all think in such a simple way, I do fear for her safety however.

Who listens to the UN anyway, bunch of non entity countries selling their votes to the highest bidder.

Yes I noticed he kept trying to call her a heretic and trying to discredit her that way...

that mental raving islamic in the second clip is just like abu.
harkens back to history many undreds of years ago, takes the underdog status and wants to stop our freedom of speech.

She does the right thing by waiting for his ranting to stop.
Impossible to act with reason against an unreasonable person.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 26^th, 2009 at 10:12am:





sprint,

Every one who needs to counter the "ISLAM is tolerant" lie , should view this [below] YOUTUBE video.

This sheik is insane / irrational.

That is what ISLAM produces in men, madness and irrationality.

A harsh assessment / assertion?



Listen to the words of this sheik.




Non-Muslims allowed to perform their religion
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=6jYUL7eBdHg


While you watch this YOUTUBE video, just bear in mind the claim made in this Koran verse [below]



http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.256

This Koran verse is so often promoted by muslims, to non-muslims, to and insist that ISLAM is tolerant.

This video exposes these claims of 'tolerance' as just another lie, which is being perpetrated upon non-muslims.




+++++++++








TRUE ISLAM?

Take a lesson from the words of Abraham Lincoln,


Abraham Lincoln

Unfortunately, this woman will remain in very real danger from Islamists, because she challenges aspects of Islamic teaching, and the fact that so many muslims are not appalled enough by that sort of behaviour, to actually speak up for the rights of others to hold differing opinions, displays how very far Islam has to come, before it could fairly be called, tolerant, or peaceful.

The petulant vitriol unleashed at anyone who does not accept Islam, as it wants to try and portray itself, is indicative of a terrible immaturity, and insecurity, which only the muslim ummah can hope to change.

Yes, I would have liked to have seen greater progress too, grendel, but I always live in hope, that our shared humanity, will eventually outweigh any religious differences.

I hope that common ground will help those who demonise all muslims to recognise the unfairness of that stance, and I hope the muslims who vilify everything western will eventually recognise the futility of that direction, and I hope that the vast majority, who do not fit into either of these extremes, can start a better dialogue, which will see a more secular, humanist approach adopted by that majority.

It took the Christian church centuries to cede it's control over government to more appropriate mechanisms. This is now happening relatively quickly in the middle east.

Sure they have. They are in the process of it. Have you noticed that even though conservative Muslims such as Abu claim that a new caliphate is a genuine goal for Muslims around the world, Muslims have totally failed to act on this, even when given demcoracy, and even where muslims are the overwhelming majority? I would only place them a century behind the west.

I'd say that the push for reform will come from the groundswell of ordinary people in Iran. Those heavy metal bands, and the female skier who had to leave Iran to pursue her career, among others. There is still quite a moderate influence from France in Tehran. Women still buy expensive perfumes, lipstick and luxury goods.

It's sad to see Iran so repressed in a way, because the Persians are among the most interesting people in the Muslim world. Iranian women are also legendary for their beauty. They have class. Compare them to Iraqis and there is just no comparison.

I agree with Freediver that the Muslims you talk to here are more than a bit conservative compared to the version of Islam that I saw in many countries. I just wonder if it's a question of the new conversions on the block having to prove themselves? That has to elicit a response  

Politics is highly non-linear Grendel. Change tends to be sudden rather than gradual.

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2009 at 3:34pm:

No ruling class or organisation willingly gives up power. Real power is taken, not given.

Christian denominations didn't cede control of a state willingly, it was all ripped from the fists of clerics through force of arms and/or disestablishment by secularists. The Vatican remained brooding and embittered for decades by the forced ceding of the Papal States. Even today I'm sure the Anglican Church would fight hard to remain established in Britain.

As for Islamism, it has to be resisted on every front so that it rots from the inside out.

pope urban 2 wrote on Jan 26^th, 2009 at 12:41pm:


so? atheists kill atheists every day, christians kill christians etc etc- but I don't see you attributing any significance to that

grendel - she deliberately completely misses the point and is deflecting unsuccessfully.


gaybriel - I ask you to delete your offtopic deflective comment.

So where is the double standard again?

It is well know that Muslim terrorists kill more muslims than NON-Muslims.

Now in what context is that equivalent in Christian society?

No it's just pointing out the fact that they do...  remember what was happening in Iraq.  

I remember a while back discussing it and the dogma preached that death for Allah (martyrdom) was good and all tied up with the virgin thing and that any Muslims who died in this act went straight to heaven as innocents killed in the name of Allah or some such baloney.  If I get a chance I'll look it up but it was just justifying the act.  

Sunnis kill Shiites.  Shiites kill Sunnis.  Everyone kills Sufis and Wahabists kill everyone.

A nation is not a religion.
A race is not a religion.
Only in Islam do nation and religion exist as one.  Only Islam have "religious" states.  They do not have secularism in most Islamic states.