As Hamas congratulated Palestinians on their "victory" from mosque loudspeakers on Sunday, shell-shocked residents surveyed the debris of the deadliest offensive ever launched by Israel on Gaza.


"We congratulate all the Palestinian people after the victory in the fight with the enemy," bellowed a voice from a Hamas mosque in central Gaza City.

Yahia Karin, a 54-year-old resident of city's southern neighbourhood of Zeitun, found little to cheer about -- his home was reduced to rubble during the 22-day Israeli offensive which killed at least 1,300 Palestinians.

"I came to see my home, but as you can see, there is no home here anymore," Karin said, pointing to the charred ruins of his residence.

Some of the heaviest clashes between Israeli troops and Hamas fighters occurred in his neighbourhood -- and the scars of war are everywhere to be seen.


If this is victory, then I'd hate to see their definition of defeat.
And surprise surprise, the "victory" anouncement came from a central mosque.
When will people wake up to these lowlife barbarians?

Grendel wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 9:25am:





Grendel,

Exactly correct.




And the next time abu, or one of his brothers on this forum, insists on how good it was, in the distant past, for Jews and Christians to live under ISLAM's 'protection' [quoting ISLAMIC historical sources] just remember today again!!!, and how the aftermath of this conflict in Gaza will be recorded by muslims.

How muslims are already recording their history, how Hamas in 2009, won a great victory over the Zionists.





ISLAM so hates TRUTH.

The ISLAMISTS prolly can't wait for the day when they take over the world, and they can finally record the 'truth' of the history of 'Palestine'.

ISLAM's history would proudly declare how the muslim armies whooped the Jews arssxs back in 1948!!

The coming victory of ISLAM.

Dream about it abu.

LOL

Coz that is all it is.

Vanity & pride.iProverbs 22:8
He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.





Posted by: Alaskan
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/023681.php#c602782

Obviously Israel has been flip flopping almost daily in regards to its stated aims with this offensive, however, the fact is not one of these aims have been achieved.

The war did not stop rocket firing, did not end Hamas rule in Gaza and did not even succeed to free captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. Hamas has been strengthened, and Abass and his impotent PA has lost credibility amongst Palestinians, and has in fact been weakened by this affair. 

So why don't you tell us once again, besides killing hundreds of civilians, including children (which I understand for some you, is something that the Israeli's can be proud of), what exactly has Israel achieved?

Hamas on the other hand has quite clearly won the propaganda war, and the world has seen Israel for the murderous zionist pigs they are.

The fact that Hamas was able to resist the 4th most powerful military in the world, ensuring that Israel did not achieve its stragic goals, is in itself a victory for Hamas.

Then again, I don't expect dimwits like you to understand, who see war like some sort of footy match, where the victors are the ones who killed more people.

lestat - hamas rule over rubble and a broken people.
Israel will attack again if rockets come over.
Israel drove in as far as they wanted and quashed hamas.

The response from every other country in the world was muted.
Noones interested in those who vote in terrorists.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:21pm:


I'll ask again, which of Israels stated goals, have they achieved?

If this has ended for the time being, then I suppose it will be expected that the infidels go in there and repair the damage or provide the funds to do so.

Amadd wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:38pm:


Do you realise that there are Palestinian Christians...or has your bigotry blinded you to this fact?

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:23pm:


I have addressed the main issue the self defeating vanity of islamists.

As for Israel ... they achieved what they needed to achieve.: rocket attacks stopped, hamas leadership was exposed as child killers and punished accordingly by blowing them in bunkers where they hide, resupply of hamas with weapons get severely hampered by destruction of smuggling tunnels.

More then that ordinary palestinians started ask questions about sanity of their murderous hamas masters.

Quote:

Lestat what were Israel's stated goals? I just thought they were going in to kick Hamas' arse, which they seem to have done. There was no victory. There was no successful resistance. The Israelis came and went as they pleased. Hopefully these claims of victory from Hamas will make the people realise just how deluded they are.

Quote:


For example?

Game, set and match.

Thank you for coming Tallowood, once again, rather easily exposed as the dim wit you are, and right on queue you react in the only way you know how.

You have no credibility.

freediver wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:57pm:


I've already listed what the 'apparent goals' were, however, as I already stated, Israel have been flip flopping around a fair bit, a part of their propaganda manouvering which was to be expected given an Israeli election was coming up.

however, of all those stated aims, not one was achieved. And now you say that 'they just wanted to kick Hamas's ass', really says alot about how simple you really are.

Would be comical if it wasn't funny.

Besides...they couldn't even do that. Hamas are still in tact, and politically anyway, are in a far more powerful position then they were before the war. It is the PA which is the big loser of this war.

you say that the IDF went and did what they wanted...yet the rockets continued, the tunnels were not destroyed, and the IDF were unable to destroy Hamas, or even loosen its grip on Gaza.

Once again, a look at the facts makes a mockery of your claims fd.



Quote:


For example? [/quote]

CAIRO — Military and security experts believe that the high death toll and a trail of destruction left by 22 days of Israeli massive air, sea and land bombing have failed to guarantee Israel a victory.
"After 22 days of non-stop attacks, the Israeli military juggernaut failed to force Hamas and other resistance groups into surrender," Lebanese military expert Walid Sokaria told IslamOnline.net.

Israeli troops began on Sunday, January 18, a gradual withdrawal from the bombed-out Palestinian territory after a deadly 22-day offensive that killed more than 1300 people, nearly half of them civilians.

Announcing a unilateral ceasefire a day earlier, Israeli Premier Ehud Olmert claimed the onslaught has reached all its goals.

Israel has been inconsistent about the objectives of its deadliest offensive ever against Gaza, starting from ousting the Hamas-led government to ending rocket firings.

Security analysts, and even some Israeli parties, believe none of that has been achieved.

"The war did not stop rocket firing, did not end Hamas rule in Gaza and did not even succeed to free captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit," noted Sokaria.

"So what kind of victory can Israel claim?"

Israeli intelligence chief Yuval Diskin admitted Sunday that the war failed to wipe out the network of tunnels operated by Hamas, another key objective.

The right-wing opposition Likud party has also said that the war failed to achieve its goals.

No Winner

Some experts believe that by not losing to one of the world's most powerful armies, the Palestinians have actually won.

"Hamas won the war," contends Sokaria, the Lebanese military expert.

"The fact that the enemy has failed to achieve its set goals should be deemed a clear victory for the resistance," agrees Tal`at Musallam, an Egyptian military analyst.

Sokaria believes Hamas has also won the propaganda battle.

"The war has boosted Hamas popularity on the Palestinian, Arab and international arenas."

But Yassin Suwaid, another Lebanese military expert, disagrees.

"Israel is the winner, no doubt," he told IOL.

"It has achieved its goal of dealing a major blow to Hamas."

Suwaid denied that Israel had intended to topple Hamas rule in the coastal territory, which has been under siege since Hamas was voted into power in 2006.

"Ending Hamas' rule in Gaza would not have been in Israel's favor as it would have ended the West Bank-Gaza division."

He believes the only loser were the people of Gaza who lost their beloved ones and saw their homes brought to a pile of rubble.

Israel has destroyed 20,000 residential buildings, 1,500 commercial facilities, 51 government buildings, 18 education buildings, 20 mosques and 50 kilometers of roads.

According to preliminary estimates, rebuilding Gaza would need no less than $1 billion.

But Mohammed Abdel-Salam, an Egyptian military analyst, insists the scale of destruction is no basis to decide the winner.

"Israel has failed to end Hamas rule in Gaza, halt rocket firing and stop arms smuggling," he noted.

"Hamas has also not achieved any military victory," he added.

"So the best way to describe the result is that Hamas did not lose and Israel did not win."

All Israeli aims were achieved though some not completely. Regretfully not all of hamas vermin was eradicated but let wait and see how long it will be before hamas will try for another victory of this sort. What is your prediction?

Quote:


What stated aims?

The article does not support your claim that it has weakened the PA, or that it has strengthed Hamas. Maybe they just didn't surrender because so many were dead that there was no organisation eft to surrender. Merely 'failing to secure Israel a victory' without bothering to explain what they mean by victory, says nothing at all about the strength of Hamas. If 'nearly all observers' make that claim, why is that the best you could do?

Only the totally deluded could claim any sort of victory in such a resounduing defeat.

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:17pm:


I have already named them above. now it is your turn to answer my question:

When hamas will try for another victory of this sort?

from your posting lestat
Quote:


he's right in that hamas achieved no ,military victory. That's the definition of losing.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:26pm:


Not sure why I'm even bothering with you, cause you seem sort of simple, but here goes.

no one ever claimed that Hamas won a military victory....however, they did win a political victory.

Israel were denied their stated goals, and Hamas has been strengthened politically, especially in the west bank.

freediver wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:23pm:


Only one deluded here is you, and  the fact that you cannot even tell me one thing which Israel has achieved from this proves the case.

But hey...keep parroting the same zionist lies, it seems its all your pitiful mind is capable of.

Quote:


Palestinians are Arabs.

"There", that's a little more accurate.

They've had plenty of chances to make a real Palestinian state (where one never existed) and they deny the opportunity every time because they won't accept the Jews being there.

Amadd wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:32pm:


yeah...arabs are Palestinians. thats very observent of you. And your point is?

Do you have a a clue or are you just parrotting the same zionist lies.

I suspect its the latter.

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:31pm:


You trying hard to make the rest of muslims look like liers not me

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:30pm:


[I'd call this an achievement]

Hamas vows revenge after IDF kills Gaza Interior Minister Said Sayyam 

By Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondents, and Agencies 

Tags: Gaza, Israel News, Hamas   

An Israel Air Force strike in Gaza on Thursday killed Hamas' Interior Minister Said Sayyam, one of the Islamist militant group's three most senior leaders in the coastal strip.

A Hamas official vowed vengeance for Siam's death. "The blood of Said Sayyam will be a curse on the Zionist entity," Mohammed Nazzal told Al-Jazeera television.

Sayyam, 50, was killed in an air strike that targeted the home of his brother Iyad. Also killed in the attack were his son, his brother, as well as Salah Abu Shreich, head of internal security in the organization and the person responsible for the liaison between the political and military wings of Hamas.

Palestinian sources said Hamas' military commander in Gaza City, Mahmoud Watfah, was also killed in the attack.

Six other Hamas operatives were wounded in the air strike in the heart of Gaza City, the sources said. The IDF Southern Command ordered the airstrike on the basis of precise intelligence provided by the Shin Bet security service.

Sayyam was the effective founder of the Hamas-led police force. He pushed for Hamas' bloody 2006 coup in Gaza, during which it ousted the rival Fatah faction from power.

As interior minister in Hamas' government in Gaza, Sayyam oversaw thousands of security agents and was widely feared. He was the number three behind Ismail Haniyeh and Mahmoud Zahar, and was seen by many as the most extreme of the triumvirate.

The air strike on Sayyam was apparently an attempt by Israel to deliver an image of victory in its offensive against Hamas. The Israel Defense Forces understands that Hamas' agreement in principle to the Egyptian proposal for a cease-fire in Gaza signals that the campaign is nearing its end.

In an interview with Haaretz in November 1995, Sayyam said, "I do not hate [Israelis] for being Jewish or Israeli but because of what they have done to us. Because of the acts of occupation."

In response to a question about whether he saw a chance for change in relations between Palestinians and Israelis, he said, "It is difficult to forget what was done to us. If the reason for the hate will not exist, everything is possible.

"But if the reason remains, it is impossible to love. First we must convince in general and in principle that we have been wronged, then we can talk about '67 or '48. You still do not recognize that we have rights. The first condition for change is recognition of the injustice we suffered."

Bradley Burston contributed to this report


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055899.html

Calanen wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:40pm:



A moderate who will now most probably be replaced by an extremist.

oh, and perhaps if you can link me to the Israeli leader who stated that the aim of the war was to kill this person, then you may have a point.

I asked for stated goals remember. You have none...just as I thought.

Calanen wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:46pm:


Who said anything about a fight. i just want to see how brave you are...I promise I won't lay a single finger on you.

I suspect that you are nothing but a coward....everything I read from you confirms this suspicion.

But hey, you can always prove me wrong tough boy. Name the time and place...no violence...I promise...just a chat.

Quote:


You'd better bring the Bra Boys with you.

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:47pm:


Why anybody in his sound mind would want to go look at islamic bums risen towards heaven? 

Amadd wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:48pm:


As much as they might like a rumble, I don't think Jai Abberton himself could get them to go to Melbourne!

And as much as I would like to have my image and personal details splashed on Religion of Peace websites to become the victim of a Salman Rushdie style Fatwa, I think that at this juncture in my life - it's not going to advance me any.

Quote:


Another victory.

Also, the Interior Minister Sayyam that was killed was famous for his unspeakable torture of Al Fatah members. Some moderate.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90854/6565812.html

freediver wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:59pm:


Apparently we are all going to settle it behind the bicycle sheds Freedriver.

Tucker's keeping a look out for Mr Smithers who is on playground duty.

lol@ you losers.

Four pages on and not one person can name just one stated Israel goal, which was acheived by this attack on Gaza.

Not one.

Lestat wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:24am:


Unusually, the IDF Commander has not called to tell me what his military objectives are in this latest operation. I promise that as soon as he does, I will post them all here.

Lestat wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:24am:


You are the one that brought it up Lestat. You are the one who is unable to name one.

I see, you meant the goals that you stated.

You'll have to forgive me for not blindly accepting Les's claims about their stated goals. Everyone knows the drill by now. I'd be surprised if they even bothered stating them.

Quote:


Can you give an example? Are you talking about when I copy and paste newspaper articles?

Are you honestly saying that you have never heard or read any stated goals by any Israeli minister, spokesman, or anyone connected to the govt or military?

hamas killed - 300 - 400
jews killed - 12

I declare israel the winner.

I have stated Israeli goals twice, first time in another thread about week ago and can repeat them again third time now:
Two main demands Israeli put forward as condition of ceasefire were:
1 hamas stops rocket shelling of Israel
2 hamas does not rearm
Both conditions were reached

Now I ask again the question that muslims are reluctant to answer:

This question is in bold and large font so nobody can miss it 

tallowood wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:48am:


Tallow, a great victory over Israel such as this one requires months, even years of careful planning. They need to lull Israel into a false sense of security so that they again send the Israeli army to it's doom at the hands of Hamas. Plus, it would be unfair for them to attack Israel again while they have been crippled. They need to give Israel time to lick it's wounds and recover. Hamas does not march to anyone else's tune. They will again be victorious over Israel at the time that suits them. God willing.

Why can't they do it themselves without involving IDF and civilian Palestinians? Bloody attention whores   

Praise be to Allah - the God of lies.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:48am:


I am arab (and Egyptian) and I have spoken (even argued) to hundreds of arabs, especially about Naser (i'm no fan of his)...yet I have never heard any consider Nasser to be a winner.

Yes he is admired for nationalizing the Suez Canel..but no one, ever claims he 'won' the 6 day war, or described him as a winner.

Do you have anything to back up this claim...or are you just lieing for the sake of the argument.

Oh..and I'll ask you aswell...can you name one stated aim which the Israeli's actually achieved from this operation? One military or political objective which the Israeli stated they wanted to achieve, and actually achieved from this. Just one.

Its amazing...you are all so adamant that Israel won this war, and won comfortably (like I said...seems people can't look past the death tallies, like its some sort of morbid scoreboard..sorry dimwits, it doesn't work that way)..yet 6 pages on, not one of you have been able to find just one of Israel's stated goals (their were numerous reports in the media, where Israeli leaders were stating what they wanted to achieve...I'm sure you read them) which has been achieved by Israel. Not one.

I bet you also at the time believed that Israel defeated Hezbollah last year....yet one year on it is now accepted that Israel in fact lost. Even the Israeli's over whelmingly believed that they lost the Lebennon war, as numerous surveys found, and Olmerts popularity plummetted after the debacle.

Yes...even in Lebennon they killed far more people then Hezbollah did (I'll give you that, the IDF are good at killing), yet anyone with even a basic understanding of war can now see that Israel did not achieve its military aims in Lebennon. It was hurt both politically and diplomatically...and the air of supremecy of its military was lost when a poorly armed guerilla group held of the 4th most powerful military in the world.

THis Gaza crisis is very similar, despite all the damage, all the deaths, fact is that Israel has achieved very little from this operation..this fact in itself is a victory for Hamas.

And to be honest...it does not suprise me one bit that you people cannot see this. Its what I have come to expect. A simple outlook for simple people (sorry Helian...though this post is aimed at you...I don't actually lump you with the other losers....I respect your posts a little more...not a lot mind you, but a little. ).

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:48am:


This is once again a complete load of nonsense and a quick look at the facts and your claims can quite easily be discredited.

Fact is Hamas was voted in by the Palestinians....on the back of its humanitarian work. Whilst the corrupt PA were banking millions of dollars, it was Hamas which set up social networks, charities, and in general looked after the general populace. If Hamas were such monsters as you claim...then why would the Palestinians vote for them. Like really...be honest...you must think very lowly of the Palestinians if you truly believe Hamas is as you have described.

You have absolutely no evidence to support your claim...Hamas has the popular support in Gaza from the average people...and are far more popular in Gaza then the PA. And here you are..claiming that "do not have welfare of the Palestinian people and nation at heart". What garbage.

What you seem to fail to comprehend, is that Hamas are Palestinians. Brothers, sisters, mothers, sons of Hamas members are the very same people that you are basically saying they dont care about.

Do you seriously believe this garbage...Have you even ever spoken to a Palestinian. Do you know any.

Really...instead of parroting the same old propaganda and zionist lies...how bout you actually think about what you are saying...and ask yourself this, how does such an organisation...who, if as you claim "Hamas do not have welfare of the Palestinian people and nation at heart, they simply crave war all the time"...how does this organisation get voted in free and fair elections.

What are you saying...that you no the situation better then the Palestinians themselves. Is that what you believe....if you do...its quite arrogant to do so.

Palestinians voted Hamas for a reason...I suggest you start doing some reading and finding out why...before sprouting the same old tired zionist propaganda.

Meanwhile, Olmert today made some farcical claims, telling the Israeli media Hamas would find it difficult to continue smuggling weapons into Gaza and that the IDF controlled the northern Gaza Strip – the area from which most rockets are launched into the Jewish state. On the ground, the IDF does not control the entire northern Gaza, as clearly evidenced by Hamas' continued ability to fire rockets from that zone.

Hamas of course has declared "victory," which is overstating things. Hamas' "victory" was by default since its only goal was to survive the IDF beating. It achieved this not due to its might but because the IDF will not be launching the third stage of its attack, which would have devastated Hamas.

One real Hamas victory, though, is the international legitimacy the group received during the past few weeks. According to WND's Hamas sources, the group was in direct contact with Italy, France, the EU and U.N. representatives, many of whom, the sources said, expressed willingness to bring Hamas into the fold and out from isolation.

In the outcome of this war, a clear winner or loser cannot be determined. Both sides gained and lost. But if we are to judge based on which side achieved its objectives, Israel clearly did not win.

Hamas for now will probably scale back its rocket attacks against Israel, since it's in the group's best interests not to provoke any further IDF operations. But when the time is right and when its arsenal has been replenished, Hamas will resume its war to destroy the Jewish state.

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=86570

This is an article written by a Jew, I suggest you dimwits read what he says, and pay attention to the bold bits.

I highly doubt it, but you might even learn something about war strategies, and international politics and diplomacy.

Calanen wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:57pm:


I've tried, but I admit, with your level of ignorance, you probably need a team of international experts giving you 24 hour round the clock education, and even then...they would be up against it.

Hate and ignorance are a major impediment to education, and unfortunately for you...you have an abundance of both.

Did you read the article? Did you learn anything? No...see what I mean.

Grendel wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 9:13pm:



"lester" lol. 

I think hes avoiding them spurtles.

lestat - i like how you describe the hamas in your posting
Quote:


Own it.

Calanen wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 9:46pm:


Islam doesn't need reformation...its already perfect.

oceanz wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 9:19pm:


wow..you think thats funny? I suggest you get out more.

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:08pm:




freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:08pm:


Do I? Where have I said that.

Once again...you revert to lies..its all you have, because without fail your arguments are pathetic to say the least.

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:08pm:


Yes...the from Australia knows better about the Palestinians then the Palestinians themselves.

THey're lives, their freedom from persecution, suffering and oppression in your eyes is futile.

We get it...you wish for the Palestians to die and suffer in silence. You have expressed thoughts clearly...forgive us if we treat your opinions with the disdain they deserve.

Obviously none of you even read the article I posted. Well, you can't say I didn't try.

lestat, hamas got taken away.
they got invaded and taken, plucked out even as they hid amongst their kids.
From where they fired.

the same ones that murdered fatah when they won power.


What a history to inherit. I am glad it is not me.

lestat - so, anything less than having 100% of the people there killed is a victory ?

But, the ones that were "martyered' were praised ?
So, what do they want ?

Well put Helian.... 

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:


Thats good helilan, though I'd be interested to hear what sort of state you believe the Palestinian have the right to.

Statehood is really empty rhetoric that State is not viable. Do you believe Palestinians have the right to determine their own futures, control their borders and air space. A right to a military and self defence. Basically the same rights that every one has?

Or is a Palestinians state which has hundreds of Israeli settlements, blocking roads, without control of its borders or air space, existing only at the whim of Israel and under its control.

Because if its the latter helian...then this is not a state, it is oppression with another name.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:


That 'futile armed resistence' you talk of is the reason that a 'two state solution' is even on the table. If it wasn't for the armed resistence, you would neither know, or even care about the Palestinians and their rights.

Fact is for decades the world was silent whilst Palestinians lives and home were destroyed. It was only after Munich, the PLO armed resistence, and the intifada in the 80's did the world actually look up and take notice.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:


They've already lost big helian...and they have nothing left to lose. Nothing.

They are a people without hope, 60 years of oppression and persecution will do this. And watching the world give tacit approval to their sufffering has left a sour taste in their mouths.

Thats what you don't seem to  understand. You say that they 'will' lose big. Tell me helian...whats left for them to lose.

They are fighting with the only thing they have left. Their lives.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:


They have been negotiating for almost 20 years...and what has it got them. More settlements, more checkpoints, more suffering. In fact, after Oslo Israel actually increased its settlement activitiy.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:


They're children have been dieing long before armed resistance Helian....just because the world didn't want to know or cared does not mean it didn't happen.

Armed resistance actually put the Palestinian issue on the map. It has achieved far more then the protacted negotiations which have resulted in the Palestinians actually being worst off.

Once again, I suggest you read how many settlements have been created since Oslo. Is this the 'negotiations' that  you believe Palestinians should put their faith in.

Another 20 years of pain and suffering?

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:


The salvation army or amnesty international were not born from a society who has suffered 60 years of oppression.

You are comparing apples with oranges.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:


What are you saying...that people without statehood or a military have no right to self defence.

Take a look around helian, the US/Israel just to name two countries, who have employed violence as its key strategy for attaining its goals, Afghanistan/Iraq and Lebennon are clear examples of this.

Tell me, why is it ok for major military powers to use violence attain goals, but not ok for weak, desperate and often poor people.

Quote:


Can you elaborate on that please Helian?