NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:


Thats good helilan, though I'd be interested to hear what sort of state you believe the Palestinian have the right to.

Statehood is really empty rhetoric that State is not viable. Do you believe Palestinians have the right to determine their own futures, control their borders and air space. A right to a military and self defence. Basically the same rights that every one has?

Or is a Palestinians state which has hundreds of Israeli settlements, blocking roads, without control of its borders or air space, existing only at the whim of Israel and under its control.

Because if its the latter helian...then this is not a state, it is oppression with another name.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:


That 'futile armed resistence' you talk of is the reason that a 'two state solution' is even on the table. If it wasn't for the armed resistence, you would neither know, or even care about the Palestinians and their rights.

Fact is for decades the world was silent whilst Palestinians lives and home were destroyed. It was only after Munich, the PLO armed resistence, and the intifada in the 80's did the world actually look up and take notice.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:


They've already lost big helian...and they have nothing left to lose. Nothing.

They are a people without hope, 60 years of oppression and persecution will do this. And watching the world give tacit approval to their sufffering has left a sour taste in their mouths.

Thats what you don't seem to  understand. You say that they 'will' lose big. Tell me helian...whats left for them to lose.

They are fighting with the only thing they have left. Their lives.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:


They have been negotiating for almost 20 years...and what has it got them. More settlements, more checkpoints, more suffering. In fact, after Oslo Israel actually increased its settlement activitiy.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:


They're children have been dieing long before armed resistance Helian....just because the world didn't want to know or cared does not mean it didn't happen.

Armed resistance actually put the Palestinian issue on the map. It has achieved far more then the protacted negotiations which have resulted in the Palestinians actually being worst off.

Once again, I suggest you read how many settlements have been created since Oslo. Is this the 'negotiations' that  you believe Palestinians should put their faith in.

Another 20 years of pain and suffering?

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:


The salvation army or amnesty international were not born from a society who has suffered 60 years of oppression.

You are comparing apples with oranges.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:


What are you saying...that people without statehood or a military have no right to self defence.

Take a look around helian, the US/Israel just to name two countries, who have employed violence as its key strategy for attaining its goals, Afghanistan/Iraq and Lebennon are clear examples of this.

Tell me, why is it ok for major military powers to use violence attain goals, but not ok for weak, desperate and often poor people.

Quote:


Can you elaborate on that please Helian?

Gaybriel,

My post was NOT off topic.

My post was speaking to the method used by ISLAM to obfuscate TRUTH.

So Lestat still failed to answer the question

tallowood wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:34pm:


I already told you...the question is silly and doesn't make sense. I already told you why, though you conveniently ignored the issues I raised.

Hamas has not tried for victory. it was Israel which attacked, it was Israel which tried for victory, by invading Gaza, and hoping to destroy Hamas, and it was Israel that failed.

In fact, Israel has not achieved any goals...and have in fact made Hamas stronger. Or haven't you noticed Hamas officials meeting with European leaders in order to iron out a ceasefire.

Before this operation...no European leader receognised Hamas's claim to power....whereas now it appears that they do.

These are the facts...its time you learnt to deal with them.

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:44pm:


Sigh...I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat myself. Do you have any idea about the ceasefire announced last year. I suggest you go and do some research, as you quite clearly have no idea.

Palestine upheld its end of the truce, Israel did not, and continued its blockage which was starving the people of Gaza. The UN co-ordinator of Gaza has admitted this in an article I posted in this very thread.

Hamas agreed to halt the rocket fire, Israel agreed to lift the blockage. Hamas stopped nearly all the rockets, Israel did absolutely nothing to lift the blockage, on the contrary, and actually increased the blockage, in addition to numerous targetted killings and the odd bomb here or their which resulted in civilian deaths.

After 6 months, Hamas realised that Israel were never going to uphold its end, therefore it decided not to renew the ccease fire agreement. Israel attacked, hamas began firing rockets.

Tell me FD? Would you have preferred that the cease fire continue, Hamas continue to uphold its end, whilst Israel did not, and that the Palestinian people slowly starve to death?

Go back and read the article I posted...I know its very unlikely, but just maybe you may learn something.

Lestat wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:42pm:


Israel kicked hamass because hamas was firing rockets into Israel. That is the fact.

You claim that the question is silly because you can not answer it. You can not answer it because you know that hamas can not do it.
So hamas rockets are not flying,  hamas can not do it. The logical conclusion is IDF have achieved both of the objectives and hamas claim of victory looks shallow, stupid and criminal in respect of Palestinian people.