This issue keeps coming up in the Israel vs Palestine debate, for example here:

According to Abu, if you hide behind women and children in order to fire at your enemy, your enemy is prohited by international law from firing back.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1230901537/120#120

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 6:46pm:


Comments?

Hamas calls children to cover a place where a missile strike is going to occur, after the Israelis give them 5 minutes to clear out before they flatten the building.

The response of Hamas - let's get the kids on the roof of the building.

Calanen,

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Sounds like the people went willingly to me. And your phrase "calls children" is a little misleading don't you think? The citizens of Gaza know they're going to get hit anyway, so why not do it defending their homes... What is in that video is not a case of Hamas using human shields at all, it's a case of the brave Ghazan people going to any length possible to defend themselves and their homes. Unlike the coward Zionists who flee at the first sound of a Hamas rocket.

freediver,

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Firstly the picture does not show that rockets are being fired from the rooftop of an apartment. So your whole argument is out the window. It just shows it's being fired from within the city... how do you know what that building is? It's certainly not clear to me from the picture.

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It was a question Abu, not an argument. You are really stretching for deflections these days. Here, I'll repeat the question for you:

Do you still think that it is a violation of international law to take out the Muslims launching rockets because they are on top of an appartment building?

Hamas openly admits to using human shields, but Abu still insists it is some IDF conspiracy.

Calanen wrote on Jan 12^th, 2009 at 5:49am:

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Yes HAMAS is very good at letting people 'opt out' if they dont like its agenda. They are understanding in that way.

So you've gone from, they never ever ever use human shields, too...ok they do, but the human shields WANT to be human shields, so its OK.

Either way, Hamas puts civilians on military targets to enhance civilian casualties.  As we said all along.

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You're a lawyer? And you don't even know the difference between 'to' and 'too'?

Anyway You still haven't shown Hamas use human shields, all you've done is show the case of one single man (not Hamas) who called some of his friends to rally around him and support him, and they did. Because they're brave and courageous people who aren't afraid to die to resist the oppression of these Zionists.

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It's their choice. When a people are faced with pretty much certain death anyway, they often become quite courageous like this, and don't fear anything.

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No, Hamas do not.

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Perhaps if they stopped offering their children as human shields, their chances might improve a bit.

During the humanitarian ceasefire negotiated with the Israels and Hamas, Hamas takes the opportunity to fire some rockets from a school compound.

Of course these were in fact Israeli agents pretending to be Hamas, and the photos were staged.

Smile for the photo terrorists.

Any chance Calanen of finding out what preceded these rocket attacks and proof as to who actually fired them?

Are you also aware that there are rogue fighters in Gaza as well who want to hurt the Israelis as much as they've hurt them.  They won't listen to anyone - a little like Israel ignoring the UN, EU and others, with the exception of the US who remains supportive, calling for a ceasefire.

Why don't you read something else apart from the information spruiked by the extreme right?

Google - Gaza Humanitarian Catastrophe as a start and work from there.  

That isn't exactly right Sprintcyclist.  You and I have disagreed and agreed on many things in the past, so this is not personal, but you really need to open your mind a little.

Hamas has tried to have peace talks with Israel to share the land peacefully - but it is Israel who has broken agreements and treaties with the UN, EU & UK.  Israel wants everything at any cost.  They were given an inch, but they took a mile.

This from an Israeli militant who once served loyally in the IDF.  I don't expect you to read it because it's easier to remain ignorant with a heart full of hate.

I write as someone who served loyally in the Israeli army in the mid-1960s and who has never questioned the legitimacy of the state of Israel within its pre-1967 borders. What I utterly reject is the Zionist colonial project beyond the Green Line. The Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in the aftermath of the June 1967 war had very little to do with security and everything to do with territorial expansionism. The aim was to establish Greater Israel through permanent political, economic and military control over the Palestinian territories. And the result has been one of the most prolonged and brutal military occupations of modern times.

Four decades of Israeli control did incalculable damage to the economy of the Gaza Strip. With a large population of 1948 refugees crammed into a tiny strip of land, with no infrastructure or natural resources, Gaza's prospects were never bright. Gaza, however, is not simply a case of economic under-development but a uniquely cruel case of deliberate de-development. To use the Biblical phrase, Israel turned the people of Gaza into the hewers of wood and the drawers of water, into a source of cheap labour and a captive market for Israeli goods. The development of local industry was actively impeded so as to make it impossible for the Palestinians to end their subordination to Israel and to establish the economic underpinnings essential for real political independence.

Gaza is a classic case of colonial exploitation in the post-colonial era. Jewish settlements in occupied territories are immoral, illegal and an insurmountable obstacle to peace. They are at once the instrument of exploitation and the symbol of the hated occupation. In Gaza, the Jewish settlers numbered only 8,000 in 2005 compared with 1.4 million local residents. Yet the settlers controlled 25% of the territory, 40% of the arable land and the lion's share of the scarce water resources. Cheek by jowl with these foreign intruders, the majority of the local population lived in abject poverty and unimaginable misery. Eighty per cent of them still subsist on less than $2 a day. The living conditions in the strip remain an affront to civilised values, a powerful precipitant to resistance and a fertile breeding ground for political extremism.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

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This may or may not be true because the sources aren't credible.

Sorry Mantra, but you are the one displaying your ignorance of the issues here.

That whole load of tripe you copied was based on the premise that, and I quote,
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.

I suggest you do a little more research, and see if that premise can be justified.

The rise of the Islamic Brotherhood, especially in Egypt, was very destabilising for the area, and remember that Israel was a fledgling state, and it's security was very precarious indeed, if the Arabs mobilised to attack them, which was a very real threat, at the time.

The following page I will link to, does not detail the rise of the Brotherhood of Islam, and there attempts to engineer a united, arab/muslim, attack on Israel, with it's objective of destroying it, but it does give a general overview of the situation, as it was in the '60's.

http://www.mideasti.org/transcript/six-day-war-lessons-learned

I realise that your heart goes out to those people suffering in Palestine, but your head needs to get in on the act as well, and stop buying into the Palestinian propaganda, they are unreliable, to say the least.

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You know Mozzaok - I was going to say the same to you.  You have never appeared ignorant to me - in fact I always thought you were one of an open minded few.

I have checked out many of these "facts" and I will just say very sadly that you have shut your mind altogether.  This is not just about Islam, most people want to live peacefully, it is about a group of old men who want control of not only the western world, but the ME as well and the propaganda they use to achieve domination.

Why are you going with the flow of the extreme right?  You used to always appear neutral.

Do you know that globally the Jewish people have become divided, not only because of the Gaza conflict, but Iraq & Afghanistan as well.  There is world wide condemnation for these attrocities committed by the US and Israel.

mantra wrote on Jan 13^th, 2009 at 8:28am:


Mantra, arabs were also supported by superpower. Besides oil rich arab countries are not short on money at all. Yet arabs use children as human shields while israelis do not. You really should research the facts somewhat more as was suggested above.

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Yeh how defiant of them. They should instead have lessons on how to lay down and die like a good victim.

Sprint, didn't you see the thhread about the Israeli kids getting an education about the conflict by participating in it themselves? writing their own litttle messages of peace and love onto the missiles destined for someone's apartment block.

tallowood wrote on Jan 13^th, 2009 at 9:12am:




You think that kids writing messages on missiles, the same missiles which have killed over 200 children...is right and proper?

Then again, I am not really surprised.

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Right, just like terrorists aren;t allowed in there either.

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Understatement of the year.

mantra wrote on Jan 13^th, 2009 at 8:04am:


So how do the neighbouring nations who refused to have anything to do with the Palestinians fit into that theory?

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Rather than focussing on the shadowy people allegedly pulling the strings from behind the scenes, perhaps you should look at what actually happens. You can explain away anything with those shadowy figures.

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This is about Israel mantra. You can't twist that issue backwards so it fits into your attack on 'western media'.

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So have Christians. So have atheists. None of that has anything to do with Israel's right to exist. Difference of opinion is part of democracy, not proof of wrong.

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Is that your way of saying they don't believe Israel has a right to exist?

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They are only equally impotent if you consider the only viable outcome to be the destruction of Israel. If on the other hand you are concerned about the welfare of the palestians, they are far from impotent. Yet it fell to western nations to provide aid to the palestinians. Neighbouring countries, even though they participated in the 67 war, are just as happy as the Israelis for the palestinians to live in their current conditions.

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They are the only country capable of doing so. Other nations in the area do have significant arsenals.

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Why do you want there to be another war mantra?

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They could have done so at any time in the past. They could do so in the future. It's not their style. They want peace, and have put up with some extraordinary attacks to achieve peace. I can't think of many other countries that get attacked by their neighbours, defeat them so soundly, then try to get everyone to go about their business in peace, despite their neighbours refusal to even acknowledge their right to exist.

Tell me FD - how would other Muslims get aid through to the Palestinians when even workers from legitimate aid agencies are getting stopped, targetted and shot by the IDF?  Sure Israel is just going to open their borders to other Muslims and say - OK you can come in and help your mates.

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No they actually captured some Israeli soldiers and beheaded them.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGbP55HGi8&eurl=http://www.103.fm/programs/event....

Reminds me of pictures I've seen and stories I've heard from those who were in the Hitler Youth.

I don't think any sane person doubts that Hamas are chronic child abusers.

mantra wrote on Jan 13^th, 2009 at 5:49pm:


He is Jewish, so are all the people in the photo. They are actors I paid to discredit Hamas.

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I thought so.  There goes your credibility Calanen - although I will give you a little credit for being an excellent photoshopper.  You've certainly fooled a few on this forum - which isn't hard.   

Here is the same Jewish actor, in a photo from a different angle:




Hamas Anniversary

Next Image  by Courtney KealyReference: 677114398377 03:

Palestinian children dressed as suicide bombers, put fake explosives on a small child December 9, 2001 after marching in commemoration of the 14th anniversary of the Palestinian militant group, Hamas, in Ain El Helweh, the largest Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon.

The camp is home to more than 40,000 Palestinian refugees and is surrounded by Lebanese Army checkpoints. The Hamas spokesman in Lebanon denounced Palestinian President Yasser Arafat's recent move to contain Hamas by putting Sheik Yassin, the founder of Hamas, under house arrest in Gaza and arresting some members in Gaza and the West Bank, after Hamas took responsibility for a number of suicide bombings in Israel last week, that left more than 22 Israelis dead. (Photo by Courtney Kealy/Getty Images)

http://www.jamd.com/image/g/677114

I've managed to compromise Getty images with my zionist propaganda. My powers and influence are legion.

Another Jewish actor seeking to discredit Hamas.

It also looks like they've given him a REAL pistol to play with. Hope it's not loaded.

freediver wrote on Jan 13^th, 2009 at 6:27pm:


Better still:

http://www.maplandia.com/gaza-strip/

OK I zoomed in on the map Calanen linked to above. Guess what? Google is also in on the Zionist propaganda! Contrary to Abu's claim that the reality is that Gazans are squeezed in so tight there is no 'non-residential' land, this map clearly shows fields and farmland. The people at google have certainly been busy adding green squares.

Hamas uses human shields because they are losers - because the only way they can fight is by hiding behind women and children. If they were brave enough to fight as real men, they wouldn't stand a chance. They kill far more Palestinians than Israelis, because as they openly admit, they love death like we love life.

I think that is Israel in the bottom right. Note that the Israelis are not game to live near the border, but the Palestinians don;t seem quite so afraid. I wonder why?

Calanen - I'll grant that you present an argument well and I shouldn't have compared the Anzacs to Hamas, although millions of young men were unwittingly sacrificed in an old men's war.  So I'll take that comment back.

I'm not presenting my argument well at the moment admittedly, so will leave it until later.

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Don't bet on it - you RW's always superficially believe you are never wrong - but us lefties have conviction and that's always a winner.

mantra wrote on Jan 13^th, 2009 at 5:49pm:


You're joking aren't you Mantra. They are the same race.

And while I grant you the possibility that it is Zionist propoganda, you're starting to look a bit silly with the constant bending over backwards to put the Hamas spin on everything.

mantra wrote on Jan 13^th, 2009 at 6:30pm:


There is such a vast difference between young children learning to respect the legacy that has been granted them through sacrifice (that means they have the freedom and opportunity to learn how that sacrifice was misused as well) and the complete indoctrination of babies and toddlers in weapons and violence against a recognised and available group.

Its a ridiculous and disgraceful comparision which does not stand up to scrutiny and showed your own ignorance.

mantra wrote on Jan 13^th, 2009 at 7:31pm:


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Well you might think you have. But I dont know - not really a neutral audience here to judge one way or the other.

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I was not saying that you were silly, I will say that some of your arguments are. Because they are.

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If only the other side had you in the appeal I did before Christmas, the result may have been different. You should offer your services to the major law firms in this country.

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You could lose - my family has a history in radio dating back to the '30s.

But it matters not - everyone on the internetz is the best at everything, because, well, it's the internetz.

mantra wrote on Jan 13^th, 2009 at 7:57pm:


Judging by most of posts NO. It just happened to be that Islam is extreme ideology.

freediver wrote on Jan 13^th, 2009 at 12:36pm:


Too much common sense there FD. especially the last paragraph.

I wonder if any of the other ME countries would have shown as much restraint if they were nuclear capable.

When I made the analogy - it seemed a reasonable comparison but  I knew that it was too controversial, so I withdrew my comments.  To compare our remembrance of the Anzacs to young boys celebrating the struggle of their forefathers in resistance to the occupying forces would bring on too much anger from some of the posters here.  I am gutless at times.

Yes for the US to celebrate the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and for us to celebrate the slaughter of millions of our boys, especially in places like Gallipoli & France, sent carelessly to their death by old men - makes war a farce.  We are remembering the death of 55 million young men in the second world war?

Abu the Palestinian struggle is probably worse because the enemy is next door and these little boys have the right to celebrate the struggle of the resistance fighters and their deaths - they are in the midst of it.  The allied troops in the second world war were fighting someone else's war and they are still doing it.

Twenty years ago there would be no celebration of the suicide bombers - but as the brutality and oppression has increased over the years, unfortunately the Palestinian people's hatred of their enemy has increased as well.  They haven't had a choice regardless of all the screeching about Israel wanting peace.  

Apparently a cluster or dirty bomb is OK regardless of how many children they kill.

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Millions of 'our boys' didn't die in WW2. A lot did, however.

But given that Japan started the war and was pretty determined to kill us all, I dont think that the 'old men' had a lot of choice. Im sure America didnt want its Pacific Fleet to be sneak attacked and about 2000 of its sailors killed.

As for the use of the atomic bombs, they saved many Japanese lives, as well as Allied lives. My grandfather fought against the Japanese, and he said that no matter how overwhelmed they are, they would fight until they were all dead. The would never surrender. So this meant that the allies would have had to do amphibious landings on Japan proper, while old ladies, old men, kids, and Japanese troops came out and were slaughtered - house by house, street by street, city by city. The only way to win would have been to kill just about everyone. The atomic bombs, while dreadful, prevented something even more dreadful.

But its easy now to sit back as the armchair critic and say how just a cup of tea with Tojo and the Emperor would have sorted it all out. The Banzai culture was real. Thousands of kamikaze pilots flung themselves into allied shipping, and you think that they are going to surrender unless they have to?

ANZAC Day isn't a CELEBRATION mantra...

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So we can't criticise the use of children as human shields or suicide bombers until we've experienced hard times? I didn't realise morals were so flexible.

Grendel has a point about ANZAC day. I've never heard a digger say they love death more than the enemy loves life. Lest we forget, does not mean lest we forget the glory, it means lest we forget the suffering and end up doing it again. People like Abu who call for the destruction of Israel want to see it happen all over again.

Mantra, don't cheer to hamas child killers and molesters, it sounds disgusting and I think you are better then that.

mantra wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 9:11am:


"and for us to celebrate the slaughter of millions of our boys,"

mantra wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 9:11am:


Why not?

mantra wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 9:11am:


Who's us?

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 8:06am:


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Im not sure why you are obsessed with my job.

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There's a nice moderate statement. If I was Roosevelt, I would have given the order too. I wouldnt send millions of my guys to die in bloody street battles that would have made Stalingrad look like a summer picnic. Maybe you would have - minds may differ.

It seems to me your agenda is just to hate on and be against pretty much anything the West has done or is doing. Everyone has to have a hobby I guess.

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Don't even know who that is sadly. But, I'm doing ok for money, so I dont really need a supplementary income. Keysar Trad could use an assistant though, if you needed some pocket money.

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In terms of Hamas, they are very good at demonising themselves. Just posting their own videos where they talk about slaughtering jews etc is very good at presenting the opposite side of view. Maybe they need to make more shows with their Mickey Mouse character to show their humane side.

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Thanks for the tip from the top.

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It's what I call 'Fairyland Thinking'. It is an illness that has pervaded the modern age. It exists on both the micro level:

- If a person attacks you in the street, you should never hit them back, but you should reason with them. They are just poor desperate people looking for money.

- if a person breaks into your house, you should never use a weapon to defend yourself. That weapon will just be taken from you and used on you OR the person in the house just wants some money. So give them some money, and they wont brain damage with their prybar, and, you dont need a gun to defend yourself, because if you call the cops, the burglar will wait while the police respond in a hot minute to help you.

- if a person attacks the police with a knife, a brick, a gun - the cops should not shoot back, or use their weapons to defend themselves. That poor person may be mentally ill, the police need to negotiate.

- if suicide bombers committed to annihilating your country fire 6000 rockets into your residential neighbourhoods, what you need to do - is talk with them. Sit down. Have a cup of tea. Don't shoot back! Heaven forbid - you might hit some innocent people.

- don't use the nuclear bombs on Japan, in a war they started, where they treated POWs in the most despicable ways imaginable, beheadings, torture, starvation. Where the Allies lost about 200,000 guys bombing, shooting, burning every single Japanese out of every bunker, cave, rock, cliff face in the Pacific. No, once the Allies got to their actual homeland, the home of the Emperor, the Banzai troops would have surrendered, so no need for nuclear weapons.

Instead what you should do, is negotiate. See if you just talk enough, they will surrender, everyone can go home and thats much nicer isnt it?

Good parody of how modern Fairyland Thinking would have covered the D-Day Landings:

muso wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 9:33am:


It's not about that man.

It's about remembering the people who have gone, and the supreme sacrifice they made so we can live here. People gave their lives, so its about remembering that. And seeing old friends too.

Just a little more than 60 years ago, there were Jap subs in Sydney Harbour.

Now if the Americans had not destroyed the Jap carriers, in the Coral Sea and Midway, those carriers would have sailed down to Sydney and wipe the place out with 1000s of planes. As they did with everything north of Australia before they were turned back by the Allies.

muso wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 10:02am:



This is true. But the other truth is, we get the politicians we deserve.

And with the muppet values many people are wandering around with today, is it any wonder, that we have muppet politiicans?

Grendel wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 10:03am:


I'm not sure, but I think he means the way that pollies show up at all the memorials and stuff, as if its Stolen Valor in a sense.

On the other hand, pollies would be criticised for NOT showing up. So its a two-edged sword for them.

Grendel wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 10:03am:


Every time they pose for the public in a wreath laying ceremony and every time they open their mouths during Anzac Day to make an eloquent speech saying what a supreme sacrifice these people had to make (due to the failure of politicians such as myself). They don't usually say the last bit though.

I should actually have said that they glorify themselves. I agree that they don't intentionally glorify war.

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You are quite right Muso and it's funny which politician that brings to mind.

Who turned Gallipoli into a circus? 

Mozzaok - if you happen to be reading these threads - please note Grendel's continual insults and you're worried about hurting his feelings. 

Calanen wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 9:49am:

It could be argued that it's also a covert celebration in that, as one Australian radio identity put it, "We Australians love glorious defeat and we celebrate it whenever we can".

muso wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 10:02am:


AGREED !!!

You are making lots of gaffes recently Mantra.
I have never called you names, and I have never condoned any one else calling you names, and I have criticised Grendel for calling you names, and you accuse me of having a short memory, and besides really that was not even what we were talking about.

I said that you comparing Grendel to Lestat was offensive, because Lestat is such a low, contemptible, loathesome creature, far beyond any mere argy bargy name calling.

You have got yourself so emotionally confused, by your well intentioned sympathy for the plight of those palestinians who are suffering, that you are putting yourself in the position of justifying terrorists, and Islamiist zealots, by abrogating them for their responsibility for the suffering that so concerns you.

Others here are not so willing to lay the blame at the feet of the US or Israel, as being the primary cause of this suffering.

We would all like to see it end, but as long as one side openly states that the complete destruction of the other side, is its ultimate goal, which Hamas does say, then it is wrong to absolve them of their responsibility for the suffering, by maintaining such a criminal, genocidal policy.

You always seem to ignore that point.

The rest of us know that Israel are not blameless, and the US has often behaved deplorably, when it comes to international foreign affairs, and have rightfully been criticised for it, but just how you think they could possibly proceed to negotiate peacefully with a group who seek the obliteration of Israel from the map, is a question you need to answer.

If the US, or Israel, had ever come out with pronouncements, or policies, of such open hatred and bigotry as the Islamists do, you would never forgive them, but you just turn a blind eye to it when the Islamists do.

That would tend to make me think that in this regard, it is you who is displaying an unfair bias, albeit from a position of compassion for the suffering palestinians, even if you are well intentioned, and just want to see a peaceful resolution, because before there can be any resolution, each side needs to accept the other's right to exist, currently the palestinians do not show any signs of ever accepting Israel's right to exist.

I never seen a little Australian boy or girl with an automatic rifle during any ANZAC parade like the little Palestinian kid on the picture as well as never seen any Australian kids dressed up with suicide belts like the Palestinian kids do.

Good grief... I have relatives from the war too.
Gee unusual for an Australian eh.
people shot by snipers in Kokoda.
fiances whose partner just disappeared there.
Wives of officers beheaded by the japanese.
Uncles still shell-shocked from bombardment in the navy.
Yes...  I think we have a very good idea of what the Day is about and not some PC crap spouted by immature prats.

Seems to me the only ones politicising it are you goobers.

Now how about you put your money where your mouth is and provide some examples eh...

Come on you have such biased opinions there must be some proof?

No?  
Eh?

None?

Oh dear...

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Do you even know what you are saying when you write such silly stuff Mantra?
I think probably not, because you just condoned genocide.

As far as this kerfuffle you have started over anzac day, I really don't know what we expect politicians to do, if they are effusive about it, then must we assume that they are seeking to exploit it?

I expect some hold some pretty strong views on it, and have the right to express that.

I cannot think of anyone whose attitude to it I would want to question, it is something that nearly all of us respect greatly.

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It's a bit hard to think about their suffering without your thoughts turning to the people who use them as human shields.

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Are you suggesting that the palestinians take notice of what John Howard says? There are some things you can't honesty try to pin on him.

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I've never heard that silly advice before.

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Likewise, does the fact that the Palestinians are perpetual losers justify their position on destroying Israel, on using women and children as human shields, on sending children over the border as suicide bombers? You cannot negotiate peace with someone who insists that killing you is the only acceptable outcome.

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Intolerant? How many Australians lob missiles into aboriginal land? How does that even compare? Australians want peace. Hamas loves death like we love life, by their own admission. Even white Australian Muslims like Abu think that Israel has no right to exist and champion another war. Is this a result of him being kicked out of his home by Jews? Do you think the Muslims should be given free riegn to drive the Jews into the sea?

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Mantra the only people promoting genocide are the Palestinians. Which half of the Jewish population thinks Israel has no right to exist? Would that be the anti-semitic Jews? You need to consider what it is they actually disagree on. Stop pretending that any disagreement means that they agree with whatever your position is.

5 times a day?

No way hosey 

I was referring to his constant crowing