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locutius

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Re: Human shields
Reply #60 - Jan 13^th, 2009 at 7:23pm

mantra wrote on Jan 13^th, 2009 at 5:49pm:

How the hell do you know that isn't Israeli/US propaganda? Angry

In fact the little boy looks Jewish.

You're joking aren't you Mantra. They are the same race.

And while I grant you the possibility that it is Zionist propoganda, you're starting to look a bit silly with the constant bending over backwards to put the Hamas spin on everything.

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mantra

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Re: Human shields
Reply #61 - Jan 13^th, 2009 at 7:31pm

Quote:

It's not a question of right and wrong, it's about presenting the argument. Passionately presenting a silly argument, well just makes you seem passionately silly.

One thing I am accomplished in is public speaking. I give papers at conferences and present seminars, as well as appear in court.

I have not "passionately" presented an argument - I have logically presented an argument which I have been able to back up with credible sources. Don't infer that I am "silly" Calanen because if you want to win an argument - you won't if you have to resort to personal insults.

Congratulations - you are accomplished in public speaking and presenting legal cases. I have been fortunate too - I also have a voice that people stop and listen to and I can't think of one verbal argument legally or illegally that I haven't won when I've chosen to.

I'll bet my voice against yours anyday. Cheesy

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locutius

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Re: Human shields
Reply #62 - Jan 13^th, 2009 at 7:37pm

mantra wrote on Jan 13^th, 2009 at 6:30pm:

Interesting - Calanen. Maybe there is some truth in it. Perhaps the same way that little boys march in the Anzac Parade proudly wearing their grandfather's medals. Their grandfathers fought (apparently) for their country, many sacrificing their lives - maybe that's what the fathers of these little boys did.

Just remember - suicide bombing only commenced in the 80's - why do you think that is?

I don't give a stuff anyway - it's the humanitarian factor that is my concern and the ignorance of many of the posters on this forum.

There is such a vast difference between young children learning to respect the legacy that has been granted them through sacrifice (that means they have the freedom and opportunity to learn how that sacrifice was misused as well) and the complete indoctrination of babies and toddlers in weapons and violence against a recognised and available group.

Its a ridiculous and disgraceful comparision which does not stand up to scrutiny and showed your own ignorance.

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mantra Gold Member Offline ozpolitic.com Posts: 10750 Gender:	Re: Human shields Reply #63 - Jan 13^th, 2009 at 7:44pm Quote: Its a ridiculous and disgraceful comparision which does not stand up to scrutiny and showed your own ignorance. Yes I know Locutius. It was a mistake and I have withdrawn my comment - see above post to Calanen.
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Calanen

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Re: Human shields
Reply #64 - Jan 13^th, 2009 at 7:50pm

mantra wrote on Jan 13^th, 2009 at 7:31pm:

[quote]It's not a question of right and wrong, it's about presenting the argument. Passionately presenting a silly argument, well just makes you seem passionately silly.

One thing I am accomplished in is public speaking. I give papers at conferences and present seminars, as well as appear in court.

Quote:

I have not "passionately" presented an argument - I have logically presented an argument which I have been able to back up with credible sources.

Well you might think you have. But I dont know - not really a neutral audience here to judge one way or the other.

Quote:

Don't infer that I am "silly" Calanen because if you want to win an argument - you won't if you have to resort to personal insults.

I was not saying that you were silly, I will say that some of your arguments are. Because they are.

Quote:

Congratulations - you are accomplished in public speaking and presenting legal cases. I have been fortunate too - I also have a voice that people stop and listen to and I can't think of one verbal argument legally or illegally that I haven't won when I've chosen to.

If only the other side had you in the appeal I did before Christmas, the result may have been different. You should offer your services to the major law firms in this country.

Quote:

I'll bet my voice against yours anyday. Cheesy

You could lose - my family has a history in radio dating back to the '30s.

But it matters not - everyone on the internetz is the best at everything, because, well, it's the internetz.

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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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mantra Gold Member Offline ozpolitic.com Posts: 10750 Gender:	Re: Human shields Reply #65 - Jan 13^th, 2009 at 7:57pm Quote: You could lose - my family has a history in radio dating back to the '30s. Yes well if that's the case - who could possibly win over someone with broadcasting genes? But as you say it's the internet and we all like to be the best. BTW - have most of you forgotten that this board is about EXTREMISM - not Islam.
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Израиль Навсегда Posts: 7634 Gender:	Re: Human shields Reply #66 - Jan 13^th, 2009 at 9:02pm mantra wrote on Jan 13^th, 2009 at 7:57pm: ... BTW - have most of you forgotten that this board is about EXTREMISM - not Islam. Judging by most of posts NO. It just happened to be that Islam is extreme ideology.
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Calanen Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2241	Re: Human shields Reply #67 - Jan 13^th, 2009 at 11:02pm mantra wrote on Jan 13^th, 2009 at 7:57pm: [quote] BTW - have most of you forgotten that this board is about EXTREMISM - not Islam. No, the two go hand in hand, the masters of extremism, the world over, are Islamists.
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locutius

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Re: Human shields
Reply #68 - Jan 13^th, 2009 at 11:19pm

freediver wrote on Jan 13^th, 2009 at 12:36pm:

Quote:

Because the neighbouring nations are just as impotent as Palestine.

They are only equally impotent if you consider the only viable outcome to be the destruction of Israel. If on the other hand you are concerned about the welfare of the palestians, they are far from impotent. Yet it fell to western nations to provide aid to the palestinians. Neighbouring countries, even though they participated in the 67 war, are just as happy as the Israelis for the palestinians to live in their current conditions.

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Israel is the only nation in the whole of the ME allowed to carry a massive arsonal of state of the art nuclear weapons.

They are the only country capable of doing so. Other nations in the area do have significant arsenals.

Quote:

How can anyone fight against Israel on equal terms unless they all plan to band together and that may very well happen.

Why do you want there to be another war mantra?

Quote:

Times are changing and Bush is going in a few days. Israel has already said that this is the last window of opportunity open to them - so they have a week to annihilate the Palestinians and may well do it.

They could have done so at any time in the past. They could do so in the future. It's not their style. They want peace, and have put up with some extraordinary attacks to achieve peace. I can't think of many other countries that get attacked by their neighbours, defeat them so soundly, then try to get everyone to go about their business in peace, despite their neighbours refusal to even acknowledge their right to exist.

Too much common sense there FD. especially the last paragraph.

I wonder if any of the other ME countries would have shown as much restraint if they were nuclear capable.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Human shields
Reply #69 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 2:14am

Mantra, I demand that you retract your retraction of the comparison between kids participating in returned services parades in Western countries, and Palestinian kids participating in marches for pride and unity with their armed resistance compatriots!

Those Palestinian kids are just resembling the bloody conflict that's been thrust upon them. The occupation and theft of their land hasn't been a walk in the park, it's been hell for them for the past 60 years, nobody could deny this, even if you don't agree with their methods of resisting it. But until you've put yourselves in their shoes you've really in no place to condemn their methods of resistance.

How about kids in America participating in WWII parades? Celebrating how their grandfathers were part of an army that dropped nuclear weapons on hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians? And our kids are celebrating grandfathers who were allies of unspeakable atrocity.

How about Japanese kids celebrating their grandfathers flying suicide missions in fighter planes (kamikaze)? Are they also not allowed to celebrate their grandfather's sacrifices because they didn't do it according to our specifications?

I'm sorry, but anyone who even remotely compares the resistance of Palestinians with the dropping of nuclear weapons on hundreds of thousands of civilians at once is certainly crazy, there is no comparison between such wicked and instant mass death by a far off superpower that has barely even been touched in a war, compared to those people living under dropping bombs, encroaching settlements etc. who finally rise up in a last ditched effort to defend themselves.

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mantra

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Re: Human shields
Reply #70 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 6:29am

When I made the analogy - it seemed a reasonable comparison but I knew that it was too controversial, so I withdrew my comments. To compare our remembrance of the Anzacs to young boys celebrating the struggle of their forefathers in resistance to the occupying forces would bring on too much anger from some of the posters here. I am gutless at times.

Yes for the US to celebrate the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and for us to celebrate the slaughter of millions of our boys, especially in places like Gallipoli & France, sent carelessly to their death by old men - makes war a farce. We are remembering the death of 55 million young men in the second world war?

Abu the Palestinian struggle is probably worse because the enemy is next door and these little boys have the right to celebrate the struggle of the resistance fighters and their deaths - they are in the midst of it. The allied troops in the second world war were fighting someone else's war and they are still doing it.

Twenty years ago there would be no celebration of the suicide bombers - but as the brutality and oppression has increased over the years, unfortunately the Palestinian people's hatred of their enemy has increased as well. They haven't had a choice regardless of all the screeching about Israel wanting peace.

Apparently a cluster or dirty bomb is OK regardless of how many children they kill.

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Calanen Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2241	Re: Human shields Reply #71 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 7:29am Weapons stored in a mosque. Planted there by the IDF of course. Including an anti-aircraft gun.
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Calanen

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Re: Human shields
Reply #72 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 7:35am

Quote:

Yes for the US to celebrate the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and for us to celebrate the slaughter of millions of our boys, especially in places like Gallipoli & France, sent carelessly to their death by old men - makes war a farce. We are remembering the death of 55 million young men in the second world war?

Millions of 'our boys' didn't die in WW2. A lot did, however.

But given that Japan started the war and was pretty determined to kill us all, I dont think that the 'old men' had a lot of choice. Im sure America didnt want its Pacific Fleet to be sneak attacked and about 2000 of its sailors killed.

As for the use of the atomic bombs, they saved many Japanese lives, as well as Allied lives. My grandfather fought against the Japanese, and he said that no matter how overwhelmed they are, they would fight until they were all dead. The would never surrender. So this meant that the allies would have had to do amphibious landings on Japan proper, while old ladies, old men, kids, and Japanese troops came out and were slaughtered - house by house, street by street, city by city. The only way to win would have been to kill just about everyone. The atomic bombs, while dreadful, prevented something even more dreadful.

But its easy now to sit back as the armchair critic and say how just a cup of tea with Tojo and the Emperor would have sorted it all out. The Banzai culture was real. Thousands of kamikaze pilots flung themselves into allied shipping, and you think that they are going to surrender unless they have to?

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Quote:

ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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abu_rashid

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Re: Human shields
Reply #73 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 8:06am

Quote:

So this meant that the allies would have had to do amphibious landings on Japan proper, while old ladies, old men, kids, and Japanese troops came out and were slaughtered - house by house, street by street, city by city. The only way to win would have been to kill just about everyone. The atomic bombs, while dreadful, prevented something even more dreadful.

I'm convinced now, you are a lawyer after all.

You just love taking the most despicable and horrendous acts, committed by absolute coward murderous scum, and putting it in the nicest and most helpless terms. Perhaps you should ask Mark Regev if he needs an assistant? Not mention an uncanny ability for demonising and dehumanising the 'enemy' so they just sound like sub-human terminator like machines, that don't stop unless you completely obliterate them.

Really you should stop, step back, and listen to yourself sometime. You rationalise things which are just vile. Even the most 'evil' Islamists don't do that to that extent.

And ironically enough, the standard propaganda line on the nukings sounds exactly like their reasoning. "We didn't wanna go hand to hand with them, so we just sent a few planes at their buildings, to make it short and sweet", sound familiar? Look above.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Human shields Reply #74 - Jan 14^th, 2009 at 8:28am ANZAC Day isn't a CELEBRATION mantra...
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