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Comparing Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, God etc (Read 14711 times)

easel

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Re: Comparing Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, God etc
Reply #15 - Jan 11^th, 2009 at 9:17pm

Quote:

Acts ch2 v1-41

1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" 12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"

13Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine."

14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17" 'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.'

22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25David said about him:
" 'I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will live in hope,
27because you will not abandon me to the grave,
nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
28You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.'

29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
35until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '

36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Here we have the Apostles saying the Jews have to become Christian to be saved, and that their generation (way of life) is corrupt.

« Last Edit: Jan 11^th, 2009 at 9:22pm by easel »

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Sprintcyclist Moderator Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40948 Gender:	Re: Comparing Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, God etc Reply #16 - Jan 11^th, 2009 at 10:08pm yadda - you've run this promising thread offtrack by overly long posts and excessive quotes from the bible. If you want to make a christian thread, feel free to do so. This thread was not intended to be a christian discussion, rather a comparison. The forum is a spiritual one, not just a christian one.
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abu_rashid

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Re: Comparing Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, God etc
Reply #17 - Jan 12^th, 2009 at 5:47am

easel,

Quote:

Muslims are even allowed to deny their faith and drink alcohol and eat pork if it suits their purpose.

Just a clarification here. A Muslim is permitted to deny being a Muslim to save his life, only. He may not lie just to generally deceive people, and most certainly cannot eat pork or drink alcohol to 'suit his purposes', I don't know where you got this from, but it's extremely inaccurate. I'd suggest looking to Islamic sources for correct information about Islam. After all, would you trust Muslims to get your information about JW's?

Quote:

Islam and Judaism are directly opposed to this. They are more do it our way, right now, or we will punish you on this earth before you get to leave, as if implying they have no faith in punishment after death.

Punishments in Islam are purely to maintain law and order (most of them are deterrants rather than actual punishments). Divine punishment will be meted out in the afterlife and will be much more severe than any perceived punishment that was meted out on earth.

Quote:

Islam is a religion based on war, power, deceit, domination,

Islam is certainly not based on these things. However, what kind of civilisatation would not seek domination or power an would instead seek to be dominated and powerless? It's only natural, and all religions including Judaism and Christianity have subscribed to this idea. War is one means to attain this, as for deceit it is tool that can be used in war, and this isn't just an Islamic concept, all intelligence services and militaries in the world teach this. however, associating this with your average Muslim is just rubbish, the average Muslim is not permitted to lie. In fact Muhammad (pbuh) said that one thing the Muslim never does is lie.

Quote:

Then you have the Muslims, who from my understanding call Jesus a prophet, but when he returns, he is the Messiah.

Nope, he's the Messiah. But what does Messiah mean? It merely means annointed one. There's no conflict between him being a prophet and the Messiah. In fact the NT calls him a prophet.

Quote:

Is that whom they imply Jesus will be when he returns?

No, Imam Mahdi is just another leader who will arise in later times.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Comparing Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, God etc
Reply #18 - Jan 12^th, 2009 at 6:15am

sprint,

Quote:

Then muslims seem to take a great step backwards to go before jewish beliefs into something even more constraining.

Actually if you really investigated it honestly sprint, I think you'd find this is very untrue.

Just a few examples:

Dietary requirements:

Judaism (Kosher), there are hundreds of details relating to food being deemed Kosher. In fact most practising Orthodox Jews have two kitchens in their homes (I've seen this for myself) so that no meat and dairy products can come into contact, which is just one of the many details required for the big "K" seal of approval. Kosher applies to all foodstuffs, and certain meats, such as pork are forbidden. Halal food is not Kosher.

Islam (Halal), the requirements for food to be Islamically acceptable are very few. It relates only to meat, and the meat merely needs to be slaughtered in the name of God, drained of blood, and be treated humanely. There are no preparation requirements. Pretty much same requirements as Kosher for types of meats. If food is Kosher, it's Halal.

Menstruation:

Judaism, A menstruating woman is not permitted to stay inside the Jewish house. she must live in an 'outhouse' or bungalow, so as not to defile the family home. She must purify herself after completing menstruation by taking a Mikveh (Ritual Purification Bath). Just a few of the requirements of the Mikveh are:

a mikvah must be connected to a natural spring or well of naturally occurring water
A cistern filled by the rain is also permitted to act as a mikvah's water supply.
Snow, ice and hail are allowed to act as the supply of water to a mikvah, as long as it melts in a certain manner.
A river that dries up on a regular basis cannot be used because it is presumably rainwater which cannot purify while flowing.
Oceans for the most part have the status of natural springs.
the water must flow naturally to the mikvah from the source, which essentially means that it must be supplied by gravity or a natural pressure gradient, and the water cannot be pumped there by hand or carried. It was also forbidden for the water to pass through any vessel which could hold water within it, (however pipes open to the air at both ends are fine)[11] as a result, tap water could not be used as the primary water source for a mikvah, although it can be used to top the water up to a suitable level

Most contemporary mikvahs are indoor constructions, involving rain water collected from a cistern, and passed through a duct by gravity into an ordinary bathing pool; the mikvah can be heated, taking into account certain rules, often resulting in an environment not unlike a spa.

* Also note that utensils for preparing food must be 'mikvehised' as well. So it's handy if you dedicate a whole room to your mikveh and have it close to one of your kitchens, in order to always rinse those spoons, spatulas and stuff you're gonna cook with.

Mikveh is also required for the following:

Ejaculation of semen (wet dream included).
Coming into contact with a menstruating woman (hence the bungalow)
Abnormal bodily discharge
Certain skin conditions
Contact with a corpse
After eating meat from an animal that died naturally

Extra Mikveh requirements:

The mikvah is to be preceded by an ordinary bath or shower, involving the cleaning of every body cavity, of the ears, and of the nails, as well cutting all of the nails (toenails as well as fingernails)
Removal of food from between the teeth (bring your floss!)
Combing of the hair.

As well as being unable to touch his menstruating wife, a Jewish man may not even pass her an object directly nor sleep in the same bed.

Islam, a women may not fast, pray or have sexual relations. After menstruation, she must take a bath.

As you can see, Islam is nowhere near as restrictive as Judaism, and has far fewer requirements for rituals. Islam is really quite simple to follow and not as complicated as some would like to make it sound.

« Last Edit: Jan 12^th, 2009 at 6:27am by abu_rashid »

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muso

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Re: Comparing Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, God etc
Reply #19 - Jan 12^th, 2009 at 8:11am

I think we should include Bahai in this. The Bahaii seem to have a more ecumenical approach than others because they believe all religions come from the same 'Source' and have the same essential purpose - to guide and educate the human race. To me, that's a much more constructive approach to religion.

Getting back to Yahweh/YHWH or Jehovah. He was originally part of the Canaanite pantheon, as son of El or El Shaddai. Yahweh originated as a war-god in Edom/Midian, and was gradually assimilated into the highland Canaanite pantheon. Other sons were Ba'al, Asherah, Chemosh and about 60 others including Moon gods etc. There are parts of the Bible (Particularly Genesis) that still reinforce the henotheist past of Judaism. (They worshipped Jehovah while acknowledging the existence of lesser gods.)

One example is - "Let us make man” (Genesis 1.16). In fact if you compare the Tanakh with subsequent Bible translations, it becomes obvious that several deities were involved.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Comparing Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, God etc
Reply #20 - Jan 12^th, 2009 at 8:16am

Where did you get that information from muso? It doesn't sound very accurate. For a start it seems to completely neglect the fact that Semitic languages regularly use plural pronouns to indicate might and grandeur. This is known in English as the "royal we". In Semitic languages however it is much more common, and in fact almost a required part of the language in some cases. One addresses people of higher position in plural forms in greetings and many other instances.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Comparing Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, God etc
Reply #21 - Jan 12^th, 2009 at 8:41am

muso - that's a good idea to include bahai - thanks.

yes, in the NT other Gods are inplied/stated.
My interperetation on the "let us make him ...." quote was God was chatting with Jesus.

Course, muslims dont think that, but lets stick to the topic .

Whereas the jews had people praying 3* a day, christianity had no set amount, muslims is 5* a day plus extras.
For jews, they could leave, for christians they could leave, no punishments occurred.
In islam, to leave brings death.
A few HUGE steps backward

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muso

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Re: Comparing Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, God etc
Reply #22 - Jan 12^th, 2009 at 8:49am

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 12^th, 2009 at 8:16am:

Abu, It's pretty widely accepted in scholarly circles. Here is an example of a paper that talks about the polytheism in early Judaism that later became henotheism. There are many other references in the Tanakh, and not just the use of the royal 'we'.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/zimriel/Baal/baal1.html

By the way, I love your signature quote from GWB. Grin

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abu_rashid

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Re: Comparing Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, God etc
Reply #23 - Jan 12^th, 2009 at 9:06am

sprint,

Quote:

Whereas the jews had people praying 3* a day, christianity had no set amount, muslims is 5* a day plus extras.

On that one you've got me sprint. But it's really not such a big deal. The difference between 3 and 5 daily prayers is not huge. Also their rituals for prayer are a lot more elaborate, and also I think must be performed in the Synagogue, whereas Muslims may pray anywhere. The entire world is our temple

Quote:

For jews, they could leave, for christians they could leave, no punishments occurred.

When I see statements like this from you sprint, I gotta wonder whether we're actually reading the same Bible, because my bible clearly states the apostate must be put to death. Btw, i just found out, whilst lookinng up apostasy in the Bible, that the Hebrew word for disbeliever is also kofer (cognate with the Arabic kafir), the interesting tidbits you find.

Quote:

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Quote:

[This is what you must do] when you discover a man or woman doing evil in the eyes of God your Lord in one of the settlements that God your Lord is giving you. [That person] will have violated [God's] covenant by going and worshiping or bowing down to the sun, moon or other heavenly bodies, whose [worship] I prohibited. When it is told to you, you must listen and carefully interrogate [the witnesses]. If the accusation is established to be true, and this revolting practice has been done in Israel, you shall take that man or woman who did the wicked act out to your gates. You shall then pelt the man or woman to death with stones. The accused shall be put to death only through the testimony of two or three witnesses. He shall not be put to death through the testimony of one witness. The hand of the witness shall be against him first to put him to death, and only then shall the hand of all the other people [be set against him]. You shall thus rid yourselves of evil.

Deuteronomy 17:2-5

Also you should know full well what the Jewish judgement for apostasy is, because that's why they wanted to crucify Jesus (pbuh), because they considered him apostate, and why the first martyr from his followers, Khelil (Saint Steven) was also put to death by the Jews....

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Yadda

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Re: Comparing Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, God etc
Reply #24 - Jan 12^th, 2009 at 9:10am

easel wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 4:44pm:

Yadda,

So we are all God's children, yes? Jesus claimed to be God, yet also the son of man. Therefore was he saying God is a human construct? I don't think so. God is also not man, but God, which by definition can be anything it so desires. When he was crucified he asked the Father to forgive the people who killed them, once again implying a higher power than he.

Also, did Jesus not say everything he has done we (you, was the terminology he used, assuming anyone who reads his word to be you) can do also?

easel,

The 'essence' of God is spirit [i believe].

I admit, i don't properly understand what the spirit is.

Yet Jesus came as a man [and with the spirit of God], so that he could bear our sufferings, so as to reconcile us to God [the spirit].

Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Luke 17:5
And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

Luke 24:29
But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

easel,

I am ashamed [ Wink

] to say, i can not heal the sick with my touch,
....and i cannot walk on water either!!

+++++

I [also] tried to address this issue [of the missing 'spirit power'] here,

"Are there any true Christian believers???"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225145813/5#5

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Comparing Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, God etc
Reply #25 - Jan 12^th, 2009 at 9:12am

Abu - you are reasonably right about the OT wanting death

Just for clarity, here is the quote from the NIV
Quote:

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

the way I read it, it was because the defector tried to turnm others from their faith. Not so much as the defector him/herself wanted to stop being a jew.

A small but salient point.
Important thing is, it is not a part of the christian belief, so the muslim idea has gone back from the christain progress.

Good to have you here abu, have a good day.

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Sprintcyclist Moderator Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40948 Gender:	Re: Comparing Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, God etc Reply #26 - Jan 12^th, 2009 at 9:14am yadda - it is a fallacy to use the bible to prove the bible correct . Better if you post your thoughts in your words.
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muso

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Re: Comparing Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, God etc
Reply #27 - Jan 12^th, 2009 at 9:20am

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 12^th, 2009 at 9:06am:

Also you should know full well what the Jewish judgement for apostasy is, because that's why they wanted to crucify Jesus (pbuh), because they considered him apostate, and why the first martyr from his followers, Khelil (Saint Steven) was also put to death by the Jews....

This is fascinating. I has no idea that Islam and Christianity had St Steven in common. Khelil means King or something. My main interest in history is in the first Millennium BCE. I realise that Isa and Jesus are equivalent names of course.

It would be interesting to start a thread about the characters who are common to all Abrahamic religions, particularly later than Old Testament.

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Re: Comparing Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, God etc
Reply #28 - Jan 12^th, 2009 at 9:20am

Calanen wrote on Jan 11^th, 2009 at 5:44pm:

No one says it better than Pat Condell:

http://www.youtube.com/v/M114bK4qaiM

Although I am conscious of not upsetting religious people (other than Muslims) because I am a great believer that Sikhs, Jews, Hindus, Christians will join in a great anti-jihad alliance.

I dont believe any of it however, and think it is infantile fairy tales for the weakminded.

Calanen,

I have not watched the YOUTUBE presentation yet.

As much as your post may have been directed in my direction,
I am not offended by atheists like Pat Condell, and yourself.

Sometimes atheists can say some very sensible things!
Wink

I think that it is good, and beneficial to all, that we should be free debate what we believe,
.....and many other things.

And my opinion is, that no one should be censored [gagged], and prevented from expressing their views.

Indeed, i am all in favour of fools and tyrants, widely broadcasting their views - FOR ALL TO OBSERVE!
....how else can the rest of us discern, what is decent, or foolish, or dangerous, or evil, or to be endorsed?

It seems to me, that it is only those, like tyrants, bigots, and fools, who wish to gag those, who have an opinion different to themselves.

Dictionary,
bigot = = a person who is intolerant of the opinions of others.

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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abu_rashid

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Re: Comparing Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, God etc
Reply #29 - Jan 12^th, 2009 at 9:21am

sprint your analysis might be applicable to the first passage, but certainly not the second one. It clearly states the one who worships other gods must be stoned to death....

What I'm more curious about is why you insist on stating by default "Christianity and Judaism are like this... but that strange Islam is like that!" As I've mentioned tto you before, if we actually evaluate it, we'd find Judaism and Islam has much more in common than Judaism and Christianity.

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