Australian Politics Forum - Hamas - just another bunch of ignorant thugs.

mantra

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Re: Hamas - just another bunch of ignorant thugs.
Reply #30 - Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 12:05pm

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As Grendel implied, Hamas are a bunch of zealot Islamist terrorists, freedom fighters?, only in the minds of the deluded, who do not recognise their Islamist agenda, as a push towards Islam, and we all know what a repressive regime that is.
Freedom under Islam, is no sort of freedom that I would want.

Why wouldn't Hamas be zealot freedom fighters? It is only our media who tell us they are terrorists. Who controls much of the media - Murdoch. Isn't he Jewish? Hasn't he got a cause?

I don't think it is solely about Islamic rule, although most Muslims have a common cause, but many of them are moderates and only want peace - like most of us. I don't know a lot about Hamas, aside from the propaganda we are constantly fed, but they support the Palestinian people and are trying to do what is in their best interest. It is their people they represent, not ours or Israels.

Why wouldn't most Palestinian citizens get behind Hamas? Israel has been occupied for only 60 years and they have needed the support of Bush & associates to survive. The neocons are on their last legs and this new generation doesn't share the views of their parents. The Bush presidency has ended for good and there are going to be a whole set of new global values. Israel may not have the support it used to have.

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Gaybriel

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Re: Hamas - just another bunch of ignorant thugs.
Reply #31 - Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 12:11pm

Grendel wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 4:49am:

lol forever the muslim retort... what about the aboriginals...

ah yes a stoneage people vs a "civilised/modern" people hmmm I guess thats an appropriate comparison.

it is an appropriate comparison as we're discussing the dispossession of people's from their land and the reaction of the indigenous peoples to that dispossession

you trying to dismiss it as a 'typical response' doesn't make the comparison any less valid

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Hamas - just another bunch of ignorant thugs. Reply #32 - Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 6:35pm I'm sorry but the jews are indigenous to the mandate of palestine too. An area of which over 75% is now occupied by arabs.
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mozzaok

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Re: Hamas - just another bunch of ignorant thugs.
Reply #33 - Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 7:09pm

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The Bush presidency has ended for good and there are going to be a whole set of new global values. Israel may not have the support it used to have.

Actually I believe the opposite to be more likely Mantra, at least in respect to Islam.
Many liberal, left wing leaning people, such as myself, have previously sided against Israel, in favour of the palestinians, but with the rise of Islamist extremism, we have come to empathise with just what sort of crazy fanatics the Israelis are trying to deal with, and can see how limited their options are.

We are not talking about dealing with normal peace loving people, we are talking about religious extremists, who have an open agenda of terrorism and eradication of jews from the middle east.

So, the palestinians can blame Islam for turning liberals and moderates who previously had sympathy for them, into pragmatists who recognise that you cannot deal reasonably, with a people who operate outside of reason.

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Soren

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Re: Hamas - just another bunch of ignorant thugs.
Reply #34 - Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 7:39pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 12:48am:

If you think Muslims will ever relinquish Palestine, then you're really underestimating our determination.

Well, then, my assessment is confirmed.

Soren wrote on Jan 1^st, 2009 at 10:22am:

The Arabs are motivated by religion, Islam, and not land or patriotism.

I especially like "our determination". You are like a man swaggering down the street with somebody else's lunchbox down his pants. But at least you have confirmed that it is about your religion, Islam.

Thank you linesmen, than you ball boys.

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Calanen

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Re: Hamas - just another bunch of ignorant thugs.
Reply #35 - Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 7:47pm

mantra wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 12:05pm:

Why wouldn't Hamas be zealot freedom fighters? It is only our media who tell us they are terrorists. Who controls much of the media - Murdoch. Isn't he Jewish? Hasn't he got a cause?

His mother was Jewish. He isnt. He was made a Papal Knight by the Vatican.

Firing rockets into civilian areas, deliberately targetting Israeli civilians, is not being a freedom fighter. Blowing up buses is not being a freedom fighter. Its just being a scumbag terrorist.

I don't think it is solely about Islamic rule, although most Muslims have a common cause, but many of them are moderates and only want peace - like most of us.

Quote:

I don't know a lot about Hamas, aside from the propaganda we are constantly fed, but they support the Palestinian people and are trying to do what is in their best interest. It is their people they represent, not ours or Israels.

How about their own propaganda?

Quote:

Following are excerpts from footage of Hamas female martyrdom-seekers in Gaza, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on December 30, 2008.

Masked woman clad in explosives belt: I, the martyrdom-seeker Umm Suheib, have dedicated myself for the sake of Allah, and for the sake of redeeming my family, from which I have lost eight martyrs so far. I swear by Allah that I will turn my body parts into a fire that will burn the occupation soldiers, if they move towards my house.

My beloved people, if Allah supports you, no one will be able to overcome you. We are confident of the support of Allah. There are thousands of martyrdom-seeking women like me, waiting for the occupier, in order to avenge these massacres. I pledge to my people that I will continue on the path of my family, and avenge the widows and the orphans. My people on the front-line, do not wait for any Arab president or king, but direct your appeal to Allah, the King of Kings. We are loyal to our oath, and will meet, Allah willing, in the paradise of eternity.

Quote:

Masked woman holding rifle: Allah said: “Prepare against them what force and steeds of war you can, to strike terror in the hearts of the enemies of Allah and your own enemies.” We convey this message to the Israeli army high command, which bombards our sons day and night: We, the martyrdom-seeking women of Palestine, mothers as well as girls, are waiting impatiently for them to come. Allah willing, we will make them taste bitterness, if they move even an inch into our beloved Gaza Strip.

I am the mother of two martyrs, and I will sacrifice myself as a martyr, Allah willing. I will turn my blood into bombs that will burn them. In every Palestinian home, a time bomb will await them. There will be days of battle between us, and this will be our opportunity to avenge our sons whom they have bombed, and the blood of the 400 martyrs who were killed in the headquarters. I am waiting for them.

My honorable people, have more forbearance and steadfastness. Your daughters march by your side on the path of Jihad and martyrdom.

Second masked woman holding a rifle: If one of our men dies, a thousand men will set out in his place. We, the women, will set out. We are the granddaughters of Yassin, Al-Bana, and Al-Qassam. We are all the daughters of Palestine, the daughters of steadfast Gaza. We will set out, booby-trapped. From every home, a bomb will set out, and it will explode among the sons of Zion. We are no less than Fatima Al-Najjar and Rim Al-Riyashi [two Palestinian women who blew themselves up among Israelis]. We will blow ourselves up among those traitors, those apes and pigs.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1966.htm?auth=66b1e75fe8c775e9eb275f06ff252bb6

Quote:

Israel may not have the support it used to have

Only amongst the moonbats. The silent majority think Israel is far more sane than these Hamas and Hizbollah nutjobs. You think you have the majority view because you are loudest. But the silent majority thinks you are crackers.

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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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Soren

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Re: Hamas - just another bunch of ignorant thugs.
Reply #36 - Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 7:59pm

mozzaok wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 7:09pm:

Quote:

The Bush presidency has ended for good and there are going to be a whole set of new global values. Israel may not have the support it used to have.

Actually I believe the opposite to be more likely Mantra, at least in respect to Islam.
Many liberal, left wing leaning people, such as myself, have previously sided against Israel, in favour of the palestinians, but with the rise of Islamist extremism, we have come to empathise with just what sort of crazy fanatics the Israelis are trying to deal with, and can see how limited their options are.

We are not talking about dealing with normal peace loving people, we are talking about religious extremists, who have an open agenda of terrorism and eradication of jews from the middle east.

So, the palestinians can blame Islam for turning liberals and moderates who previously had sympathy for them, into pragmatists who recognise that you cannot deal reasonably, with a people who operate outside of reason.

I think there is a lot of truth in this.
I certainly think that the time of reflexive genuflection to islamic sensibilities is over, there is going to be a lot more 'hang on a minute, sport' when talking to Musulmans and there is going to be a lot more irreverence and piss-take, someething I particularly look forward to, when they insist on dwelling in their particular castles in the air.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Hamas - just another bunch of ignorant thugs.
Reply #37 - Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 8:42pm

mantra wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 12:05pm:

The Bush presidency has ended for good and there are going to be a whole set of new global values. Israel may not have the support it used to have.

I don’t think we’ll ever live to see an American President or an Italian President or a British Prime Minister or a German or Austrian Chancellor or a Pope or any other western leader weakening their support for Israel outside of empty lip service. It could never be backed by force, neither military nor economic, at least not now nor probably within the next 100 years.

The idea of western soldiers shooting or starving Jews would evoke a certain collective memory of absolute evil.

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northy

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Re: Hamas - just another bunch of ignorant thugs.
Reply #38 - Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 9:21pm

Grendel wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 6:35pm:

I'm sorry but the jews are indigenous to the mandate of palestine too.

An area of which over 75% is now occupied by arabs.

And indeed the people of the Jewish faith have been spread throughout the Middle East for centuries but in recent times there seems to have been very significant "cleansing" of Jews from areas that have become dominated by Islam.

Below is a short summary of what has happened.

This article has come from the site www.worldaffairsboard.com

The people on that site are from all over the world and are generally very articulate.
They also include some Muslims and I am sure they would love to have Abu as a new chew toy.

Mods, If linking to an article on another site is not permitted in the rule

s, sorry and please delete.

Some things to remember
The Arab (non-Jewish) population of Israel is on the rise, now 20%.

Of the traditional lands inhabited in part by Jews in Arabia/Persia.

The Jewish population of Lebanon: 1948 20,000 - 2008 fewer than 100

The Jewish population of Iraq: 1948 150,000 - 2004: Approximately 351

The Jewish population of Iran: 1948 100,000 - 2004: ~25,000

The Jewish population of Egpyt: 1948 75,000 - 2004: Less than 100

The Jewish population of Syria: 1948 30,000 - 2003: Fewer than 100

Jordan. No Jews are recognised as living in Jordan. No Jews are allowed to own property in Jordan nor hold Jordanian citizenship.

Saudi Arabia. Same as Jordan except Judaism the religion is strictly forbidden.

Oman. No Jews are known to live in Oman.

UAE. Unknown. Practice of Judaism is forbidden, as is entry to the UAE by Israeli citizens or citizens of any country who have 1: an Israeli stamp on their passport and 2: Jew listed as their religion on their passport.

Lebanon: 10,230 SQ KM
Israel: 20,330 SQ KM
Jordan: 91,971 SQ KM
Syria: 184,050 SQ KM
Iraq: 432,162 SQ KM
Egypt: 995,450 SQ KM
Iran: 1.636 Million SQ KM
Saudi Arabia: 2,149,690 SQ KM
total land area 5,540,213 SQ KM

Israel comprises roughly .37% of the total land mass that Jews inhabited historically.

Egypt ruled the Gaza strip from 1948 to 1967 but now refuses to control it, usually keeping its border sealed.

Neither Israel nor the rest of the international community recognises Gaza as Israeli territory.

While the Gaza strip is not recognized internationally as a sovereign state, it holds it's own elections and provides it's own laws and law enforcement officers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by Parihaka; Today at 03:38 AM.

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mantra

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Re: Hamas - just another bunch of ignorant thugs.
Reply #39 - Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 10:04pm

Quote:

Israel may not have the support it used to have

Only amongst the moonbats. The silent majority think Israel is far more sane than these Hamas and Hizbollah nutjobs. You think you have the majority view because you are loudest. But the silent majority thinks you are crackers.

I wouldn't be too sure of that Calanen. How do you know what the silent majority thinks?

Hamas & Hizbollah are not nutjobs to the Muslims and Israel is surrounded by them. You saw the comment by Abu "If you think Muslims will ever relinquish Palestine, then you're really underestimating our determination". I believe that without a doubt eventually Israel will be reclaimed or at least shared fairly with the Palestinians. The Muslim population is on the increase and they are angry - far angrier than we are.

America has always supported Israel, more so than any other western nation. Their resources are running dry and their troops burnt out. There is new leadership and there will also be leadership changes in other nations who have previously supported Israel. Views are changing amongst our young who don't share the same hatred for Islam as our generation does.

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Grendel

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Re: Hamas - just another bunch of ignorant thugs.
Reply #40 - Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 10:11pm

Good grief... ignorant and a conspiraphile now mantra? how sad.
The Palestinians already have most of the WestBank and Gaza. They are parts of Israel for all intents and purposes. Jordan is 75% of what was Palestine. Arabs populate that already.

I already provided a solution... but lunatics in the ME will never agree to it.

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mantra

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Re: Hamas - just another bunch of ignorant thugs.
Reply #41 - Jan 3^rd, 2009 at 7:55am

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Good grief... ignorant and a conspiraphile now mantra how sad.

The same could be said for half the people on this forum Grendel, including you at times.

Quote:

The Palestinians already have most of the WestBank and Gaza. They are parts of Israel for all intents and purposes. Jordan is 75% of what was Palestine. Arabs populate that already.

I already provided a solution... but lunatics in the ME will never agree to it.

What solution - where? Provide a link to your solution, rather than me having to search through 50 threads to find it.

The Arabs are fed propaganda - we are fed propaganda. Who is right in this whole argument?

Why is everyone's recount of history different?

How long has suicide bombing been in existence? Maybe it only began when the West with their heavy & sophisticated artillery invaded Arab countries and they had no other effective means of retribution.

Why didn't we leave them alone and let them lead their own lives as they see fit? Western nations wouldn't have the refugee problem that they do today if the ME were allowed to control their own people under Sharia Law without our interference.

Half the world is in turmoil because of Israel needing our protection. Why are the Jewish people so much more important than anyone else?

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mantra

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Re: Hamas - just another bunch of ignorant thugs.
Reply #42 - Jan 3^rd, 2009 at 8:15am

An interesting snippet - perhaps of changes to come in regard to Israel. There might yet be peace one day.

Obama was monitoring the situation "along with other global events", a spokesman said. Monitoring? It sounded like a line from the Bush school of loose linguistics, where "immediate" and "ceasefire" are coupled to be heard by one audience as an instinctive, human appeal to halt a brutal war, while the meaning conveyed to others is approval to press their attack.

If Israel was to act against Hamas, it needed to move in these last days of the Bush presidency because, despite his words in Sderot, Israel worries that the incoming American president might be less supportive than his predecessor. But does Jerusalem have the nerve to keep it up through Obama's inauguration and the first critical days of an American campaign to reposition itself in the world? On this, the signals are mixed.

Israeli diplomats speculate that their international window for action in Gaza will begin to close as early as Monday when Western officialdom starts to return from the holiday break. A push by Paris for a 48-hour ceasefire offered the hope of some respite for Gaza's 1.5 million people and its chances of implementation are better with the passing of the Bush-Blair trans-Atlantic axis.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/israel-takes-little-comfort-from-obama/2009/0...

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mozzaok

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Re: Hamas - just another bunch of ignorant thugs.
Reply #43 - Jan 3^rd, 2009 at 9:01am

OK Mantra, of course most people accept the fact that GWB, was an extreme right wing 'Hawk', and far more likely to condone, or support, aggressive security measures from Israel.
Most would also expect Obama to be more intent on peaceful negotiation, rather than military intervention, but I contend that the Palestinians can also expect, greatly diminished support from the western public, at large.

Personally, I think this is because of the growing recognition of Islamism, as a significant global threat, and because of the Palestinian links to the most extreme Islamists.

I agree that many Palestinians may feel as if they have been forced to side with the extremists, even if they are not overly political, or obsessed with the Islamist ideal of Muslim Global Domination, they have chosen to support it, and that will always be totally unacceptable, and must always be taken into consideration, when dealing with them.

So, while we may see some more meaningful attempts at negotiation, from new world leaders, until the Palestinians, distance themselves from the likes of extremist groups like Hamas, then any chance for peaceful resolutions are illusory.

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easel

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Re: Hamas - just another bunch of ignorant thugs.
Reply #44 - Jan 3^rd, 2009 at 11:15am

Grendel wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 10:11pm:

Good grief... ignorant and a conspiraphile now mantra? how sad.
The Palestinians already have most of the WestBank and Gaza. They are parts of Israel for all intents and purposes. Jordan is 75% of what was Palestine. Arabs populate that already.

I already provided a solution... but lunatics in the ME will never agree to it.

That lady who you like, Pauline Hanson, has publicly stated in the past she believes Port Arthur was a conspiracy/cover up. Don't know where she stands now, but it would appear you support someone who follows some non-mainstream (conspiracy) ideas.

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I am from a foreign government. This is not a joke. I am authorised to investigate state and federal bodies including ASIO.

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