Yes I know Grendel - the Jews are the "Chosen People".

BTW I had a look at the deaths on the Israel Foreign Ministry site and there have been approximately 1500 Jewish people killed since 1948.

Yet when ascertaining how many Palestinians have been killed since 1948 - it says there are more than 2 million.

Surely that can't be right.  The big bad Palestinians haven't been overly successful in wiping out the Jews - but the Jews have certainly wiped out plenty of Arabs.  You wonder why they're angry.  

Grendel,

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Before the commencement of the occupation (in 1948) there were very few Jews there.

Are you still under some delusion Jews havve lived there for 3000 years and this is just a continuation of that? Prior to the 20th. century there was virtually no Jews there for 2000 years, you still must come to terms with this fact. They are a newly introduced people in the region.

And as I've asked you enough times already, if you can accept the 2% minority of Muslims in Australia turning Australia into an Islamic state and herding the current Australians into refugee camps and bombing the crap out of them everytime they attempt to resist or defend their land/homes, then I can accept your view about the occupation of Palestine. Until then, your view on the occupation isn't worth the electrons it's printed on.

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It's not comparable in your mind because you don't want to think about the reality of it. It either invalidates your support for Israel or it invalidates your irrational fear of Muslims in Australia, or both.

The fact is the figures are exactly the same. In the last Ottoman census of the Sanjack (province) in the late 1890's, Jews were no more than 2% of the population, exactly the same as Muslims in Australia today. They were just another religious minority like Muslims are in Australia today.

You keep using the term 'BMP' as if to negate the Palestinians connection to their land. But this is about as pointless as saying if we give 75% of Australia and Canada to Anglos, then it's fine for the remaining 25% to become an Islamic state. It's just ridiculous, and I can't believe you think it actually constitutes an argument.

Now again, I ask you and all those who support Israel and who call for the eradication of the Palestinians and support the military action in Gaza, to consider how you'd react to a 2% minority in your country mass immigrating (illegally mind you) and then turning it into a state purely for their religion/ethnicity. How would you respond if relegated to a refugee camp? To having your house bulldozed and an exclusive Muslim-only settlement built over it's rubble? I know you have a bit of a militaristic streak in you Calanen, how would you react to such a situation? Ghandi style? Or al-Qassam style?

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 4:31am:



What a dishonest sleight of hand. Nobody is calling for that, as you know very well. 

As I said before, this kind of refusal to honestly engage with rational matters that degrades and dehumanises people like you. It's not western propaganda that presents you as not-quite-like-thee-rest, it is you yourself.

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So if Australia loses it's sovereignity, then you accept to be herded into refugee camp, have your house demolished by bulldozers and a Muslim-only settlement built over it's rubble? The status as independant or mandated is the only factor which prevents you from considering the analogy?

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Ok, so if it's taken over by someone else, then how would you feel about them giving it the Muslim minority?

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Ok, which state do you live in? Let us assume Victoria, if Victoria were to be handed to the Muslims, would you accept it? Remembering there was never any independant Victorian nation in history... Does that change your right to your home in Victoria at all???

I'm quite sure you can recognise the validity of the analogy, as I said, you simply don't want to consider it, because you know you'd find a very stark contradiction in your support for the Zionist 'swamping' of Palestine in the early 20th. century and your extreme opposition to the Muslim 'swamping' of Australia.

About the best justification you can give to yourself right now is "I don't like the Palestinians ideologies, I like Israel's, and I don't like the Muslims ideology in Australia, and that's why I support who I support". Did you ever stop consider maybe the Palestinians didn't like the beliefs/ideologies of the Jews who swamped their land and turned it into a Jewish-only place?

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The partition plan for Palestine offered Jews who were about 30% of the population by this time over 50% of the land, and Palestinians, who were 60% less than 50% of the land... It's not 90/10 as you are claiming.

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Let us examine the situation and dispel this Zionist propaganda you keep peddling regarding the "BMP". In 1916, the Sykes-Picot agreement concluded with this vision of how the Middle East should be divided:



Notice the little purple bit? That's the area that Sir Mark Sykes called Palestine, when he decided to rename the whole region according to Biblical/Roman naming conventions.

In 1920, the British were given the "Mandate of Palestine". The area of Palestine was always known to refer primarily to that parcel of land west of the Jordan river. This was it's designation in ancient Roman times as well as in the Sykes-Picot agreement. The area labeled as "Transjordan" in the mandate was just "left over" land (didn't you ever wonder why it's borders are so straight, and a huge square chunk protrudes eastward from it?), that was historically not even a region, the north of it was part of the Wilayah of Damascus, the south was linked to the Wilayahs of Aqaba and Ma'an, and the east of it was linked with Basra and Baghdad.



As can be seen in the map of the mandate, the west of the Jordan river is labeled Palestine (proper) and the east is Transjordan. Transjordan was incorporated into the mandate in 1921, so for a whole year it wasn't even part of the mandate, then in 1922 it was renamed the Emirate of Transjordan and in 1923 was granted autonomy as a semi-independant state. So for about 1 year, the BMP consisted of Jordan and Palestine officially, although administratively they were completely seperate. The area east of the Jordan river was  never administered from Jerusalem, but was administered from Ma'an...

And so goes the myth of the BMP meaning that the "Arabs" got 75% of Palestine, and poor little Jews only got 25%.

Only someone such as yourself could be so gullible as to fall for this pathetic Zionist play on words. In reality Palestine always only referred to the land that is today being fought over by the Jews and Palestinians.

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Another Zionist myth,  that the population of the Middle East were so transient that many of the "Palestinians" are not even from there, but only immigrated there once the "Jews made the desert bloom". And now back to reality...

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The VAST majority of Jews who immigrated were illegal. This began during the Ottoman period and continued right up until 1948. Today every single Jew in the world (most of whom have no traceable heritage-link to the land), no matter his situation has the automatic right to migrate there, whilst millions of Palestinians languish in refugee camps around the Middle East, unable to enter their own land which they've lived in generatino after generation constantly for well over 1350 years.

SykesPico was superceeded by the mandate.

The majority of the MANDATE Abu the vast majority...  is NOW JORDAN...  you've been told and shown this a great many times.  It is arab occupied land...  good that you finally bothered to look something up yourself for a change.

The mandate was partitioned to give the Jews a proper homeland that could not be disputed.  Now you can blame the British or the League of Nations for how it was done.  But it was done.  Nothing was stopping the other arab tribes from becoming Jordanians and being part of the 75% of palestine that is owned by arab muslims.

Gee Abu...  look no Syria, no Jordan, incorrect borders for Egypt and Arabia...  Arabia?

Obviously many things changed eh... do try to be less disingenuous, you know the facts will trip you up.

Oh and isn't it a fact that many countries keep land won during wars?  oh that's right.  Forgot that eh?  How nice of the Israelis to give land back.

Oh and I note the little purple area is called the Allied Condominium.

grendel - don't be so factual to abu.
You know abu is allowed to lie by his beliefs.
abu is correctly following the koran/hadiths- taqiya is the term I believe.

Course if he is found out, abu'ld better practise abrogation.

The free world may have never known those terms, had it not been for Bush, Blair and co and many brave soldiers.
God bless them all