Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
The tragedy of using citizens as a tool. (Read 3735 times)
Grendel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 28080
Gender: male
The tragedy of using citizens as a tool.
Dec 31st, 2008 at 6:43pm
 
The tragedy when a regime uses its citizens as tools of war
Fania Oz-Salzberger
December 31, 2008
IMAGINE your next-door neighbour — with whom you have had a long and bloody feud — pulling out a gun and shooting into your windows from his own lounge room, which is densely packed with women and children. In fact, he's holding his daughter on his lap as he claims he will not stop till your family is dead. Police are unavailable. What should you do?

One option is to do nothing, or little. You try this for a while. After all, your neighbour is poor and traumatised, and you must bear some of the blame. Finally, as one shot hits your child's bedroom, you decide that enough is enough. You pull out your far superior gun. You attempt a surgical strike: aim at the shooter's head, try to spare the innocents.

In an abstract sense, this is what Israel is doing. But there is nothing surgical about the blood and agony that has engulfed Gaza since Saturday. Try as it might to target militants alone, Israel cannot achieve this. Civilian bodies are being pulled out of the rubble of military bases — because, like our metaphorical gunman's home, militants and civilians inhabit the same urban space in the Gaza Strip.

Gaza City and Rafah are towns doubling as army camps. Fighters train next to schools and rockets are stored in the basements of multi-storey family homes. Western aid money, diverted to buy weapons for Hamas, is now buried under the ruins. Over a million Palestinians, unable to flee either to Egypt or to Israel, have for years been ruled by a military junta that prioritises the killing of Israelis, across the international border, at all costs.

So much for conventional war, for the sand-table battlefield. No military strategist in history envisaged this monstrous, deliberate mingling of armed fighters and civilians, this novel doctrine that pitches infantry among infants and babies as barricades. Of course, civilians have always been in the line of fire and conquest, from Troy to Berlin. But no regime ever used its citizens so deliberately as tools to arouse world sympathy, as hostages to modern sensitivities.

Theories of "just war" tell us not to hurt non-combatants. But Hamas and its military arm have made a conscious decision, banking on global humanitarian concerns, to make sure that Israel hits as many civilians as possible.

Even if Israel's current war against Gaza is a just war — after eight years of rocket attacks, a unilateral Israeli retreat from every inch of Gaza, a forced evacuation of thousands of Jewish settlers, and attempts at limited and "measured" retaliation — it is therefore a very dirty war too. There is a sad zero sum game between Palestinian suffering and Israeli sovereignty, security, and normal life.

Within a few hours, Israel may switch from aerial bombardment to ground invasion. In this case, the civilian death toll will surely rise. As world opinion slowly awakens from its holiday slumber, it is likely to turn against Israel. After all, it is the strong guy, the former occupying power, the better shooter. Even Russia, its boots still covered with Georgian dust, has joined the choir of double standards.

Israelis are used to this kind of blanket accusation. It is the kind of message that unites them, in grim resolve. Most agree with Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni that enough is enough. What, they ask, would other nations do in their stead?

Does the enemy's civilian suffering trump Israel's sovereignty? Does it trump the real, if less bloody, agony and fear of hundreds of thousands Israelis over long years?

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Defence Minister Ehud Barak, and Livni have cast aside their political rivalries in order to orchestrate an answer. Israel must fight off the Gazan rockets. A vast Israeli majority currently supports them. Political tables are thus overturned in a uniquely Israeli way.

Don't count on Israel's unity for long. It is a democracy, not a one-voice nation. If the Gaza campaign turns Lebanon-like, with humanitarian catastrophe, ongoing bombardment of Israeli civilians, or both, domestic criticism will be loud and clear. But even the greatest opponents of Olmert's second war must face the blunt fact that Hamas is lethal.

To the detriment of their own people, its leaders, Haled Meshaal and Ismail Haniyeh, want neither peace nor compromise. Like their friend President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran, they want Israel dead. It's as simple as that.

Some good news arises even at this dismal juncture. Moderate Arab leaders, including Egypt's foreign minister, have openly blamed Hamas for the current Gazan predicament. Here is a serious ray of hope: Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan are willing to broker peace, and perhaps save the Palestinians from their own worst leadership. Israel has gone a long way since the Arab world set out to kill it off. For the first time, prominent Arab voices acquit Israel of the wholesale blame that some Western critics still lazily throw at it.

So here's the real challenge for Israel's next leader, whoever he or she will be: talk to the Arab League. Its proposed peace plan will require tough Israeli negotiation, but it is a start. It could prevent future wars, including just wars. Give it a chance.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Sprintcyclist
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 41731
Gender: male
Re: The tragedy of using citizens as a tool.
Reply #1 - Dec 31st, 2008 at 9:35pm
 
What else is israel to do ?

Stand by and let hamas fire missiles at their civillians unceasingly by a regime that vows to destroy them ???

abu - would you answer ?
Back to top
 

Modern Classic Right Wing
 
IP Logged
 
abu_rashid
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Aussie Muslim

Posts: 8353
Re: The tragedy of using citizens as a tool.
Reply #2 - Dec 31st, 2008 at 10:07pm
 
How about we complete the analogy by making it a little more realistic. The man and his family have been relegated to a little corner patch of his former home, whilst foreign invaders have take over about 90% of his former house and land. He and his family are trapped in a tiny little pen in the backyard, where it's almost impossible for the man to not be amongst his women and children 100% of the time. They have no water, no food, their kids are sick and in desperate need of medicine, but are being held hostage by the foreigners.

Now the picture is a little more complete, and anyone with half a shred of humanity, would see it for what it is.
Back to top
 
abu_rashid  
IP Logged
 
Sprintcyclist
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 41731
Gender: male
Re: The tragedy of using citizens as a tool.
Reply #3 - Dec 31st, 2008 at 10:27pm
 

So where does the hamas parades against israel and missile attacks from hamas for decades come into all this ?
oneeyed abu
Back to top
 

Modern Classic Right Wing
 
IP Logged
 
Grendel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 28080
Gender: male
Re: The tragedy of using citizens as a tool.
Reply #4 - Dec 31st, 2008 at 10:39pm
 
abu....  please don't regail us with your propaganda and ignorance... or is it bias of the ME and in particular Palestine.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
abu_rashid
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Aussie Muslim

Posts: 8353
Re: The tragedy of using citizens as a tool.
Reply #5 - Dec 31st, 2008 at 11:18pm
 
Quote:
So where does the hamas parades against israel and missile attacks from hamas for decades come into all this ?


If you bothered to actually look into the history and background of the conflict, you'd know Hamas wasn't even formed until after the Palestinians had endured OVER 30 years of suffering and oppression and occupation and besiegement of their homes and land.

The Palestinians have been the patient ones here, exercising incredible restraint and forbearance in the face of constant hostilities and encroachment by the Zionist invaders.

The missile attacks of the Palestinians are nothing compared to the constant volley of bombs and missiles that have been dropped on their homes, cars, families etc. for decades now. It isn't even worthy of being labeled retaliation, because it's not even close to being retaliation for what they've received.

I'd like any Australian, to tell me how they'd react to the 2% Muslim minority (as the Jews were a 2% minority in Palestine when the Zionist 'project' began) in this country forming their own  state, arming themselves to the teeth, herding non-Muslim Australians into refugee camps. bombing their apartment blocks, murdering their politicians sniping their kids in schools etc.

If anyone here can answer me "we'd surrender and accept all their terms, conditions and hostilities without resisting or fighting it", then I'll accept your position on the occupation and destruction of Palestine... if not, then continue on in your deluded and hypocritical fantasy view of the world.
Back to top
 
abu_rashid  
IP Logged
 
Grendel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 28080
Gender: male
Re: The tragedy of using citizens as a tool.
Reply #6 - Dec 31st, 2008 at 11:24pm
 
rotflmao


If you bothered you'd know there was no such thing as a palestinian till the british mandate was formed.

Then if you weren't so ignorant or biased you'd mention that their arab brothers in Jordan occupy 75% of what was the mandate.

But Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo.....
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Grendel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 28080
Gender: male
Re: The tragedy of using citizens as a tool.
Reply #7 - Dec 31st, 2008 at 11:36pm
 
Oh and Happy New year Abu...  no doubt it will be one of murdering Muslims and no improvement in that basket case we know as the ME.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
abu_rashid
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Aussie Muslim

Posts: 8353
Re: The tragedy of using citizens as a tool.
Reply #8 - Jan 1st, 2009 at 3:40am
 
Quote:
If you bothered you'd know there was no such thing as a palestinian till the british mandate was formed.


Likewise there was no such thing as a Syrian, a Lebanese, a Jordanian, a Saudi Arabian, an Iraqi etc.

If you had half a neuron in that useless head of yours you'd know all those lands were a single empire prior to the colonial invasion and all their citizens were known as uthmani (ottomans)....

Nevermind though, we'll leave the thinking up to those who actually have the equipment required for basic intellectual activity.
Back to top
 
abu_rashid  
IP Logged
 
mantra
Gold Member
*****
Offline


ozpolitic.com

Posts: 10750
Gender: female
Re: The tragedy of using citizens as a tool.
Reply #9 - Jan 1st, 2009 at 4:34am
 
Quote:
How about we complete the analogy by making it a little more realistic. The man and his family have been relegated to a little corner patch of his former home, whilst foreign invaders have take over about 90% of his former house and land. He and his family are trapped in a tiny little pen in the backyard, where it's almost impossible for the man to not be amongst his women and children 100% of the time. They have no water, no food, their kids are sick and in desperate need of medicine, but are being held hostage by the foreigners.

Now the picture is a little more complete, and anyone with half a shred of humanity, would see it for what it is.


Yes Abu - it is a terrible and inhumane situation.  I always thought it was originally agreed that the Gaza strip was set aside for the Palestinians alone, but that agreement was renigged on.  The Palestinians lead a humiliating and deprived life and have to go through the Jews for much of their needs, even including their wages from what I've read and these can be withheld on a whim.

It just seems that everyone connected with Israel has had to suffer in order for them to live the way they choose.  They have been backed up by the US & UK and were plonked down in the middle of an area that wasn't conducive to their religion or lifestyle and where they didn't belong and from that moment onward, the Palestinians have been treated like livestock and ill treated livestock at that.

No wonder Hamas has thrived and in all honesty from what information is available on them,  they offered the Palestinians a lifeline in education, health and food and gave them some hope for the future.  Why is Hamas supposed to be the enemy - because they won't bow down to the zionists and that includes the US zionists too, many of whom are running the Whitehouse.

Quote:
The missile attacks of the Palestinians are nothing compared to the constant volley of bombs and missiles that have been dropped on their homes, cars, families etc. for decades now. It isn't even worthy of being labeled retaliation, because it's not even close to being retaliation for what they've received.


This is true.  There has never been an even fighting field with Israel's weapons so much more prolific and sophisticated, thanks to the constant supply from the US.  It's easy to understand why Israel is one of the most disliked nations on this planet, possibly ahead of the US at the moment.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Grendel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 28080
Gender: male
Re: The tragedy of using citizens as a tool.
Reply #10 - Jan 1st, 2009 at 4:35am
 
oh dear blown a fuse have we abu?

Know all about the tribes and the Ottomans thanks.  Moot point.

75% of the mandate of Palestine is Jordan, populated by fellow arabs.

Like I said...  you are biased or ignorant...  at least if you were ignorant it would be seen as an innocent mistake not a dieliberate attempt at dishonesty.

BTW...  being a pseudo intellectual doesn't impress me nor does the academic snobbery you continually espouse.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
abu_rashid
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Aussie Muslim

Posts: 8353
Re: The tragedy of using citizens as a tool.
Reply #11 - Jan 1st, 2009 at 5:54am
 
mantra,

I'm glad to see a voice of reason enter these discussions about Palestine. It's amazing how many people are completely brainwashed by the media on this issue. They all need to sit down and watch Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land, an excellent documentary (in case you haven't seen it yet) that exposes the media bias towards the Zionists. It's quite ironic because those who so vocally support Israel, would never accept to doo what they always demand of the Palestinians if the same thing happened to them. They are usually ardent nationalists, who'd get out of their shotgun and form a militia at the first sign of foreigners becoming too cosey in Australia.

Quote:
even including their wages from what I've read and these can be withheld on a whim


Actually, that's something specifically mentioned in their religious texts, a Jew is not obligated to actually pay a non-Jew for work he did for him.

Sanhedrin 57a: It applies to the withholding of a labourer's wage. One Cuthean (non-Jew) from another, or a Cuthean from an Israelite is forbidden, but an Israelite from a Cuthean is permitted

Quote:
Why is Hamas supposed to be the enemy - because they won't bow down to the zionists and that includes the US zionists too


Precisely, even though Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinian people, they must be overthrown and removed from power, by the so called 'guardians of democracy' because they  refuse to bow to Zionist designs. It was the same in Algeria when an Islamic party won the elections there, French backed insurgents annulled the elections and then a bloody civil war was ensued, and people always wonder why Muslims reject democracy....

Back to top
 
abu_rashid  
IP Logged
 
easel
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3120
Re: The tragedy of using citizens as a tool.
Reply #12 - Jan 1st, 2009 at 12:44pm
 
Iran has/had a aid ship on the way to Palestine. If the Israeli's block it, well then we know exactly how much consideration they have for civilians, considering the hospitals in Palestine are critically short/depleted of medical supplies.
Back to top
 

I am from a foreign government. This is not a joke. I am authorised to investigate state and federal bodies including ASIO.
 
IP Logged
 
Sprintcyclist
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 41731
Gender: male
Re: The tragedy of using citizens as a tool.
Reply #13 - Jan 1st, 2009 at 1:45pm
 
mantra - hamas has been sending missiles over to israel for decades.
they refuse to recognise israel and its people.
israel has been the target of threats from islamics for years, this has been growing lately.


1. Israel became a state in 1312 B.C., two millennia before Islam.

2. Arab refugees from Israel began calling themselves "Palestinians" in 1967, two decades after modern Israeli statehood.

3. After conquering the land in 1272 B.C., Jews ruled it for a thousand years and maintained a continuous presence there for 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab rule following Muslim conquest in 633 A.D. lasted just 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem was the Jewish capital. It was never the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even under Jordanian rule, (East) Jerusalem was not made the capital, and no Arab leader came to visit it.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Bible, but not once is it mentioned in the Koran.

7. Jews pray facing Jerusalem, Muslims pray facing Mecca. If Muslims are between these two cities, Muslims pray facing Mecca with their backs to Jerusalem.

8. Kind David founded Jerusalem, Mohammed never set foot in it.

9. In 1948 Arab leaders urged their people to leave, promising to cleanse the land of any Jewish presence. 68% of them fled without ever setting eyes on an Israeli soldier.

10. Virtually the entire Jewish population of Muslim countries had to flee as the result of violence and pogroms.

11. Some 630,000 Arabs left Israel in 1948, while close to a million Jews were forced to leave the Muslim countries.

12. In spite of the vast territories at their disposal, Arab refugees were deliberately prevented from assimilating into their host countries. Of the millions of refugees following World War II, they are the only group to have never integrated with their fellow Muslims. Most of the Jewish refugees from Europe and Arab lands were settled in Israel, a country no larger than New Jersey.

13. There are 22 Muslim countries, not counting Palestine. There is only one Jewish state. Arabs started all five wars against Israel, and lost every one of them.

14. The Fatah and Hamas constitutions still call for the destruction of Israel. Israel ceded most of the West Bank and all of Gaza to the Palestinian Authority, and even provided it with arms.

15. During the Jordanian occupation, Jewish holy sites were vandalized and were off limits to Jews. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian holy sites are accessible to all faiths.

16. Out of 175 United Nations security council resolutions up to 1990, 97 were against Israel. Out of 690 General Assembly resolutions, 429 were against Israel.

17. The U.N. was silent when the Jordanians destroyed 58 Synagogues in the Old City of Jerusalem. It remained silent while Jordan systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives, and it remained silent when Jordan enforced apartheid laws preventing Jews from accessing the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

Back to top
 

Modern Classic Right Wing
 
IP Logged
 
Calanen
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 2241
Re: The tragedy of using citizens as a tool.
Reply #14 - Jan 1st, 2009 at 6:21pm
 
Quote:
I'd like any Australian, to tell me how they'd react to the 2% Muslim minority (as the Jews were a 2% minority in Palestine when the Zionist 'project' began) in this country forming their own  state, arming themselves to the teeth, herding non-Muslim Australians into refugee camps. bombing their apartment blocks, murdering their politicians sniping their kids in schools etc.


Arabs killed Jewish immigrants from the get go. They didnt wait until they become 40% of the population. So does that mean I can kill Arabs in Lakemba from the get go according to you? Or do I have to wait until they get to a certain percentage of the population as far as you are concerned? Just let me know what the number is that you'd think might be a fair thing before you'd recommend the slaughter starts. The Arabs in the BMP started as soon as the first Jews arrived.

As for literature about starting their own states, Jemiah Islamiah has stated that Australia should be part of the great Asian Caliphate. I think that this literature applies to all muslims in this part of the world, as Jemiah Islamiah clearly speaks for them too. So when do we get to arm up and clear out the invaders?
Back to top
 

Quote:
ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
Yadda
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print