The US identified the culprits correctly.
As for the strikes - about time, too. They can't say they haven't been warned.  The palestinians should have stragled all the 'militant' psychopathic gangsters in their midst long ago.  It should not be left to Israel to weed them out.

Soren wrote on Dec 28^th, 2008 at 4:19pm:


actually the previous attacks haven't been linked to Hamas from what I know

so you see this as justified? the attacks by palestinians killed about 5 israelis. does this make the counter attacks justifiable in your opinion?

I assume you condemn the 9/11 attacks- but you see this as warranted?

what is the difference in your opinion? at a fundamental level I mean

Gaybriel wrote on Dec 28^th, 2008 at 7:22pm:


Northy.

Records of the Religion of Peace firing rockets into Israeli neighbourhoods, and then asking us to pass round the Kleenex and have a cry for them when Israel hits back.

Just 1 rocket would be enough for me to hit back. The Israelis have been hit with 100s.

easel wrote on Dec 28^th, 2008 at 11:50pm:


Yes Easel, I am one of those Aussies.

Yes, I have no problem applying "that line of emotion" to the middle east/Israel.
Repeatedly, ad nauseam we hear and see written/televised the desire of a certain religeous/cultural group to destroy Israel, drive the jews into the sea/kill every last one of them, etc.

If the rest of the "civilised" world turns a blind eye and allows these primatives to suceed, we will have lost any claim we may entertain about our own civility/decency.

Northy.

Another angle to consider is this one:

Look at the global financial situation.

Look at where the global financial power houses are located.

War always causes death, destruction and mayhem, yet some people get insanely rich from it.

Some people are entirely materialistic and have no consideration for their fellow man.

What do you think?

If you are wondering what the flags say, they say "bear witness (testify) that There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his servant.'

Hamas flags say the same thing, but are bright green and then have the word HAMAS underneath them.



There were some green flags at the protest, but only the black one was fully unfurled, so I couldnt see what was on them.

A summary:

Even more disturbingly, Haass ignores the fact that Teheran made its greatest leaps forward in its uranium enrichment capabilities while it was engaged in these talks with the West.

Continued from page 1 of 2 )

So in making his recommendation to the Obama administration - which has already announced its intention to negotiate with the mullahs - Haass has chosen to ignore Iran's statements, its actions, and known facts about the West's inability to steer it from its course of war by showering it with pay-offs.

Haass and his colleagues in the US, Europe and on the Israeli Left are similarly unwilling to pay attention to Hamas. In an article in the current edition of Foreign Affairs, Haass and his colleague Martin Indyk from the Brookings Institute call on the Obama administration to either ignore Hamas, or, if it abides by a cease-fire with Israel, they suggest that the Obama administration should support a joint Hamas-Fatah government and "authorize low-level contact between US officials and Hamas." The fact that Hamas itself is wholly dedicated to Israel's destruction and Islamic global domination is irrelevant.

Similarly, Haass and Indyk assume that Damascus can be appeased into abandoning its support for Hizbullah and Hamas, and its strategic alliance with Iran. Syrian President Bashar Assad's views of how his interests are best served are unimportant. Both Assad's statements of eternal friendship with Iran and his active involvement in Iran's war effort against the US and its allies in Israel, Iraq and Lebanon are meaningless. The "realists" know what he really wants.

MUSLIMS AREN'T the only ones whose views and actions are dismissed as irrelevant by these foreign policy wise men. The "realists" ignore just about every non-Western actor. Take Iran's principal Asian ally, North Korea, for example.

This week North Korea's official news agency threatened to destroy South Korea in a "sea of fire," and "reduce everything treacherous and anti-reunification to debris and build an independent, reunified country on it," if any country dares to attack its nuclear installations.

North Korea made its threat two weeks after Kim Jung Il's regime disengaged from its fraudulent disarmament talks with the Bush administration. Those talks - the brainchild of foreign policy "realists" Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Assistant Secretary Christopher Hill - were based on the "realist" belief that the US can appease North Korea into giving up its nuclear arsenal. (That would be the same nuclear arsenal that the North Koreans built while engaged in fraudulent disarmament talks with the Clinton administration.)



After Pyongyang agreed in February 2007 to eventually come clean on its plutonium installations (but not its uranium enrichment programs), and to account for its nuclear arsenal (but not for its proliferation activities), Rice convinced President Bush to remove North Korea from the State Department's list of state sponsors of terror and to end its subjection to the US's Trading with the Enemy Act this past October. And then, after securing those massive US concessions, on December 11 Pyongyang renounced its commitments, walked away from the table and now threatens to destroy South Korea if anyone takes any action against it.

North Korea's behavior is of no interest to the "realists," however. As far as they are concerned, the US has no option other than to continue the failed appeasement policy that has enabled North Korea to develop and proliferate nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles. As the Council on Foreign Relations' Gary Samore said, "I think we're sort of condemned to that process, because we don't really have any alternative."

Samore and his colleagues believe there are no other options because all other options involve placing responsibility for contending with North Korea on non-Western powers like China, South Korea and Japan. More radically, they involve holding North Korea accountable for its actions and making it pay a price for its poor behavior.

As the "realists" claim that the US has no option other than their failed appeasement policies, back in the real world, this week military officials from the US's Pacific Command warned that North Korea may supply Iran with intercontinental ballistic missiles. These warnings are credible given that North Korea has been the primary supplier of ballistic missiles and missile technology to Iran and Syria and has played a major role in both countries' nuclear weapons programs.

Defending Channel 4's invitation to Ahmadinejad, Dorothy Byrne, the network's head of news and current affairs, said, "As the leader of one of the most powerful states in the Middle East, President Ahmadinejad's views are enormously influential. As we approach a critical time in international relations, we are offering our viewers an insight into an alternative world view."

When you think about it, broadcasting Ahmadinejad really would have been a public service if Byrne or any of the delusional "realists" calling the shots were remotely interested in listening to what he has to say. But they aren't. So far from a public service for Britain, it was a service for those who, unbeknownst to most Britons, are dedicated to destroying their country.

caroline@carolineglick.com

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=2&cid=1230111707087&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Soren - hahahah, good cartoon !!!

It is just not so simple as saying one side is more ruthless than the other, Soren.

My wife is pretty disinterested in politics, and she asked me why this was happening, and whose fault it is?

Of course there is no definitive answer to that, just perspectives which change dependent on which point of view you take it from.

I started by saying, the only premise for Israel existing, that the arabs could ever accept, was if they bought up a parcel of land somewhere away from the middle east, and started a new country there.
For many arabs, even that would not satidfy them, and they would continue their traditional enmity against them be they in the middle east, or ecuador.

Conversely, when you look at the map of the region, and see how israel has expanded itself through military aggression, you can understand why palestinians could feel some rightful grievance at the takeover of their land.

Effectively, it is a war, which Israel has won, but not to the point where the other side accepts defeat.

This latest advance is likely to see the Gaza strip become wholely israeli controlled, with the palestinians pushed back into the small areas bordering the west bank area.

How far they will go, how ruthless will they be?
If they bite the bullet, and go hard now, will it make the palestinians finally accept israels might, is all it needs to secure it's right to exist, not the good will of the arab, and muslim neighbours?
Of course, no-one expects that will never happen.

Quote:


The majority of jews that moved to Palestine, moved their under British rule as legal immigrants. Britain had the authority and the right to let them do so, as the ruler of the British Mandate of Palestine.

The reason Britain wanted out, and the UN divided the nation into Jews and Arab states was because the Arabs returned to their Islamic roots of slaughtering Jews. So from the moment the immigrants touched down into the BMP, the Arabs were killing them. The Jews fought back, eventually, and it was on for young and old.

It would be like me deciding to go out to Lakemba and kill Arabs in Sydney. Because its MY LAND, not ARAB LAND! Do I have that right? When Arabs were so intolerant of their Jewish immigrants, we have to be tolerant of them as immigrants? Something of a double standard. And we are not killing anybody.

And then because the fighting got so bad, the UN divided the area into the Arab and Jewish states. There was no Arab state beforehand, it was under British rule. But that was not good enough for the Arabs. No sir. They wanted to slaughter all of the Jews and take the whole BMP instead of dividing it along the lines decided by the UN. So they started an Aloha Snackbar jihadi war, guns in the air, we are the tough guys...and

LOST.

10 Arabic nations lost to a pissant group of European Jewish immigrants. Lost in a war the Arabs started. And even though they lost, and started wars again in 1967, and 1973, and have been involved in terror all this time - Israel still negotiates.

And Im supposed to feel sorry for them? That they decided to exterminate a particular brand of immigrant, that lawfully moved to a land not under their control - and they lost those numerous wars of extermination - boo frigging hoo.

Calanen wrote on Dec 31^st, 2008 at 2:32pm:



Just so.

Israel accepted the 1948 borders. Whatever territory it occupied subsequently was in reposnse to attacks by the Arabs. Were the Arabs led by reason and not religious fanaticism, they would have made peace and benefited from the proximity of a democratic, talented country in the midst, eager to have peace. But that would be unislamic, literally.

Mozzoak, ask your wife - how many rocket attacks would she put up with in your neighbourhood before demanding that the government hit back and hit back hard? How many bus bombings and pizza parlour bombings would it take her not  to let your children take a bus ride to the pizza shop?

So boo frigging hoo is the mot just, I'm afraid.

Quote:


What should happen, but will and can never happen is go back to Resolution 181, and get Hamas and Al Fatah to swear on the Koran that:

- there will be no jihad, EVER against the Jews;

- there will be no more terror of any kind;

- irreovcably accept Israel's right to exist,

- they get the West Bank and Gaza as their own state. Jerusalem becomes a free city under UN control.

That's the only way to settle it. But if Hamas and Al Fatah keep focussing on destroying Israel, and firing rockets, then it will just continue. Israel's not going anywhere, they need to accept that.

mozzaok,

Did you tell your wife anything about the situation before 1946? That it was 100% Muslim land? That almost every single Jew who livves there has come from another country? And most of them were not fleeing the holocaust as the popular myth goes, but most left quite good homes/lives in the USA, UK, Russia etc. to come for some ethnic 'adventure' in someone elses land.

Did you ask your wife if she'd gladly get up and give her home to some foreign people who all of a sudden decided they wanted it claiming their ancestors lived there over 2000 years ago?? Would she accept being herded into a refugee camp and be content with insufficient water supply (after the foreign invaders drained about 90% of it for themselves), economic blockades that prevent basic food and medicine supplies from reaching you, and bombs being routinely dropped on your apartments buildings and snipers regularly killing civilians all over the place.

This kind of stuff has been happening constantly to the Palestinians for the past 60 odd years, and these claims of "Pallywood" are just despicable, and resemble those neo-Nazis who claim the holocaust was fabricated and the photos were all faked. I've never heard of a single Westerner who visited the Palestinians territories, witnessing the situation for themselves, and didn't find the conditions there absolutely appalling, and the actions of the Zionists to be completely unjust and aggressive. Some Westerners have actually been murdered by the Zionists as well, such as the young American lady who was bulldozed to death by the IDF. If you search on Youtube, you'll also find videos of settlers attacking Western tourists, merely because they came to inspect the conditions of the Palestinians.

Add to this the confessions of former IDF soldiers who've publically admitted they regularly target Palestinian civilians from sniper positions hundreds of metres away, trash their shops, take over and vandalise their houses to watch sporting events, and commit all sorts of injustices and inhumanities, yet the nay-sayers continue denying the facts, even after the aggressors themselves admit their own guilt.

abu_rashid wrote on Dec 31^st, 2008 at 9:26pm:


Pallywood - edited version. For those who have not seen it. Rock on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys

sprint,

Quote:


You are the one-eyed one here, because of the tables were turned and you were in their situation, you'd be singing a very different tune. This means your opinion on the issue is formed purely by your relationship to it. Whilst my opinion about it was formed before I had any relationship to it, and I was in fact in pretty much the same position as you, ie. your average Aussie watching the news, however I chose to look further into it, knowing that quite obviously the whole story wasn't being told. Some, such as yourself though are not interested in looking past the 6 o'clock brainwashing.

Quote:


If Muslims took over Australia and turned it into an Islamic state and put you into a refugee camp, would you feel justified firing rockets to resist them? Or would you just accept it, and let 'bygones be bygones' and resign yourself to a life under military occupation?

If you can answer this question honestly, then I can accept it as a valid argument.

Besides the number of Hamas rockets, and the casualties they've caused for an entire year would not even equal 1 day of Israeli aggression.

Quote:


Why should they recognise an entity which has taken over their land?

Again, would you recognise an Islamic state created in Australia from the comfort of your refugee camp?

Quote:


De-humanisation of the 'other'... Goebbels eat your heart out.

The Arabs are motivated by religion, Islam, and not land or patriotism.

Borders and populations have been shifting forever, everywhere. There is nothing intrinsicly unique about the middle east except that it involves islam.  Islam has bloody borders, as Huntington's obits are reminding us. Islam, not Araby.

Look at the map and history of Europe, just over the last century. countless border changes, millions of people uprooted, shifted, resettled, some parts of the continent have been ruled by 3, 4 or more countries with 100 years. There is absolutely no terrorst movement by Sudetan Germans, by germans or french in elsace or lorrraine, in Trieste, Transylvania, Poland. There are no danish terroristss operating in Schleswig and Holstein. And so on.

So the Arabs are now Basques? Fine. Two sets of nuts out of a dozen possibilities. What does this prove beyond the nuttiness?


Does this mean that the Arabs are NOT motivated by religion but by 19th century kaffir ideas of nationalism and democratic self-determination?

Quote:


Hmmm... it seems like you're dleiberately leaving someone out there... It's not the Basques, easel already pulled you up on that.. who could it be... hmmm wouldn't be somewhere else that the British messed around with could it?? Can you help me on this one soren, I'm a little stuck.

Here's a few more for you soren...

The ARB have carried out quite a few (200 odd?) terrorist attacks during the 20th. century in ummm... Lebanon? no.. Palestine? no... France perhaps?

Or the FLNC? responsible for thousands of attacks since their creation in 1976.. Perhaps they're a splinter faction of the PFLP?? no.. perhaps related to the KLA? no... Again, France perhaps?

Or the CNLA? SNLA? Or MAC? they were quite active in bombings during the 1960's in ummm was it Baghdad? Or Beirut? nooo, I think not.

How about the FALN or the EPB? Who between them have committed 100's of attacks against US targets in the latter part of the 20th. century.. wonder which Muslim country they come from??

And as we move down into Christian South America there's hundreds of independance movements, secessionist movements, paramilitary organisations, rebel armies etc. that are involved in armed struggle against governments they consider illegitimate. How you gonna manage to link all those to Islam?

Your argument is just pathetic, because Germany had no militant organisations arise out of their 'nation-building' exercise, therefore it's a purely Muslim phenomenon. Along with the typically implied notion that all peoples of the world are decent, peaceful, civilised human beings, whilst Muslims are sub-human, barbaric, evil, violent savages, just looking for any excuse to break out the bombs.

I know you're not the brightest spark grendel, but we're talking about sorens supposed claim that no rebel/secessionist organisations exist in Europe (and I extend that to former European colonies like South America). Why are you mentioning the number of Hamas attacks?

Certainly, their ideology would justify such a move. As Hamas representative Fathi Hamad said last February, “Palestinains have created a human shield against the Zionist bombing machine.”

For the Palestinian people, death became an industry, at which women excel and so do all people on this land: the elderly excel, the Jihad fighters excel, and the children excel. Accordingly [Palestinians] created a human shield of women, children, the elderly and the Jihad fighters against the Zionist bombing machine, as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: We desire death as you desire life. [Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas) Feb. 29, 2008]
As if to illustrate both the international reach of this Islamic ideology of death and martyrdom and it’s repugnant quality (at least to a Western liberal), a Saudi cameraman filmed live the “making of a martyr” when the doctors pulled the plug on a girl in a Gaza hospital. Could she have lived, had Hamas allowed her to go to Egypt in one of the many unused ambulances waiting at their southern border? We will never know.

What we can know with some assurance, is that, when the civilians die, the Western MSM will play their role in blaming Israel and either exonerating or remaining silent about the Arabs.

This is an old story. The same year that Asad killed over 10,000 Syrian civilians in 1982, the Phalange (Lebanese Christians who were Israeli allies at the time) killed some 800 Palestinians in the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps south of Beirut. The media scarcely covered Hama, and lavished attention of Sabra and Shatilla, largely in the framework of holding Israel responsible. Thus, Peter Beaumont could doubly mislead his readership at the Guardian by comparing the “massacre” in Gaza with Sabra and Shatilla – in the former case it was Israelis attacking Hamas with minimal civilian casualties (under 20%, possibly under 10%) – hence not a massacre of civilians; in the latter case, a civilian massacre not carried out by Israelis.

In the more recent case of the 2006 summer war, the key moment came when a building not far from Kafr Qana was hit in the middle of the night. Only nine hours later did the media arrive to a carefully orchestrated scene of rescue workers digging out dead babies. The ghoulish spectacle, amply enhanced with special effects aimed at tugging at the heart strings of viewers the world over, became a massive, grotesque exercise in misplaced moral indignation that easily slipped over into vicious anti-Semitism. While “rescue workers” triumphantly held aloft dead babies, cameramen, both Arab propagandists and Western ideologues, snapped their money-shots.

So even as Hizbullah coerced Lebanese civilians into playing the role of human shields, the media excoriated Israel for their lack of concern for human life.

In a rather courageous press conference in Mahmoud Abbas criticized Hamas for its mad intransigence, he gave the world a brief insight into the mentality that moves Hamas:

“We want to protect Gaza, our people there, we don’t want genocide for our people. There are some who say, even if Gaza is wiped out, so be it. We reject this, this logic annot be accepted, has nothing to do with the interests of the people. We want to protect every drop of blood of our people… ”
And he is not just speaking here of Hamas, he’s probably also referring to the mobs in the street calling for war with Israel and support for Hamas.

The pathological symbiosis between Arab victimization politics and Western MSM moral Schadenfreude has become, over the last decades, something of a routine, inured to correction. It is predictable, and Hamas’ strategy depends on it. Thus, Palestinian media openly engage in the propaganda war, right under the nose of the Western media, from Pallywood in the streets, to Pallywood in the hospitals. A West Bank Palestinian recently complained of the manipulation:

“A mother of one of the martyrs stood by the door of the intensive care unit while crying… relatives and those around her were telling her what she should say to the television cameras: ‘Say your son [before he died] prayed and went out.’ Another tells her: ‘Curse the Arab leaders’… The journalists [in the hospitals] are going overboard in their insensitivity and taking advantage of the [difficult] moments, with the explanation that they are showing this to the world. One cameraman told a mourning mother: ‘Hit your face, cry, do some action.’”
[Al-Ayyam, December 29, 2008]
Pierre Rehov caught a similar scene from 2002 of a doctor coaching a couple to lie about having their baby born while the father was driving because the Israelis stopped him at a checkpoint (used in Pallywood).

So far, Hamas has Israel exactly where they want them, exactly where Hizbullah had them — thinking they’ve won the media war even as, for days the world has been treated to a constant barrage of Palestinian victims in picture and narrative, with violent demonstrations in the streets of the Arab and Western world pressuring their unwilling governments to side with feared and hated Hamas, with Jews around the world endangered, and no end in sight because Hamas will fight to the last drop of their own people’s blood…

Time for a media spectacular.

And Israel will only be the most obvious loser.

http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2008/12/31/get-me-a-massacre-up-next-the-kfar-qa...

Report on rockets being fired by Hamas:

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ipc_e007.pdf

from the

Intelligence and Terrorism
Information Center

at the Israel Intelligence Heritage
1 בינואר 2009 & Commemoration Center (IICC)

[Higlights below, go to link for full report which is brief]

3. Following are three major characteristics of the use made by Hamas and the other terrorist organizations of rockets during 2008 (see chapter on statistical data for details):

a. A dramatic increase in the extent of rocket fire and mortar shelling despite the six months long lull in the fighting: in 2008, the peak year of rocket fire and mortar shelling, a total of 3,278 rockets and mortar shells landed in Israeli territory (1,750 rockets and 1,528 mortar shells). That is a significant increase compared to 2007 (the number of landings in 2008 more than doubled) and compared to the previous years of the Palestinian terrorist campaign.

b. A significant increase in the number of Israeli residents exposed to rocket fire within 40 km of the Gaza Strip: before 2008, the city of Sderot (about 20,000 residents) as well as villages around the Gaza Strip were the preferred target of rocket fire and mortar shelling. In 2008, other cities and hundreds of thousands of Israelis gradually entered the circle of fire: first the cities of Ashkelon and Netivot, and later, during Operation Cast Lead, Ashdod, Beersheba, and other cities within a range of 40 kilometers from the Gaza Strip. The rocket attacks created a new reality in which nearly one million Israeli residents (about 15 percent of the entire
population) are exposed to rocket fire and mortar shelling in various levels of
intensity.

c. A significant improvement in the effectiveness of rockets and mortar shells possessed by Hamas and an increase in their quantity: in 2008, Hamas put into use 122-mm Grad launchers (for ranges of 20.4 km and approximately 40 km) and standard 120-mm mortars, which were smuggled into the Gaza Strip (in our assessment, from Iran). Those standard rockets and mortars, significantly different from self-manufactured rockets and mortars, not only increased the range of fire but also increased its effectiveness. That is a result of increasing the rockets’ warhead size and their fragmentation. As for the mortars—the standard 120-mm mortars are more precise and their range is greater than that of the other mortars possessed by Hamas and the other terrorist organizations.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 4:17am:



Funny in a pathetic kind of way.
You are now modelling yourself, the palestinians, on the - wait for it - Cornish National Liberation Army? The Corsican People's Frigging Liberation Front?

It seeems any lunatic would do, the nuttier the better. Anything, so long as the Palestinians don't have to actually get down to work, organising a civil society, rubbish collection, a half-reliable legal system and a viable economy. Hell with that, eh? Get the aid money from the EU and the Great Satan and go on with the tribal corruption, feuding and self-pity, all in the pursuit of Allah-told-me-so sharia.

The palestinians have an unerring instinct to go with the dead-end, dead-beat and corrupt multitude of bearded monsters.

And you, people living in the safety of the evil west and under the Arab regimes you all bleat about, are responsible for encouraging them, mainitaining them in their psychotic delusion. But hey, Allah knows best.i

On eve of his death, Hamas leader Nizar Rayan predicted victoryFont Size: Decrease Increase Print Page: Print By Adel Zaanoun | January 02, 2009
Article from:  Agence France-Presse

THE day before a powerful blast sent his headless body flying out of his Gaza home, senior Hamas leader Nizar Rayan predicted that the Islamist movement would defeat Israel.

"God willing, Hamas will win," Rayan said in a vitriol-laden speech that the movement's television broadcast just after he, his four wives and two of his daughters were killed in the Israeli blitz of the Gaza Strip on Thursday.

Rayan, who was 51, is the most senior Hamas leader killed since Israel unleashed its massive bombardment on Saturday in response to persistent rocket fire from the enclave.

Israeli F-16 jets fired two missiles at Rayan's five-storey house in the Jabaliya refugee camp in northern Gaza. The powerful explosion hurled his decapitated body out into the street, according to witnesses.

"It was like an earthquake," a neighbour said of the massive blast.

A dozen neighbouring houses were destroyed or damaged in the explosion which killed 12 people in all and brought to 414 the death toll since "Operation Cast Lead" started.

The Israeli air force said the secondary blasts demonstrated the house was used for weapons storage, and claimed it was also a communication centre. "In addition, a tunnel was located under the house and was used for the escape of terror operatives," it said.

In the minutes following the strike, dozens of people rushed to the scene, pulling bodies from the rubble including those of the two girls, aged seven and 10.

A neighbour, Mohammed Al-Madhun, 75, watched flames emerging from his building but refused the leave.

"I want to die like Sheikh Nizar," he said, referring to the bearded Hamas commander's honorary title.

Rayan was a hardliner within the Islamist movement.

A few months after Hamas seized control of Gaza in June 2007, Rayan vowed at a Gaza City rally that the Islamists would also seize control in the Israeli-occupied West Bank which is administered by Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24864540-12377,00.html

Calanen,

Quote:


It's quite ironic that if non-Muslim civilians are killed, Muslims are the most barbaric uncivilised murderers on the face of the earth. Yet if Muslim civilians are killed it's all just a farce and a mock up and you have no problem belittling it as their leaders actually led them to the slaughter, just to win a few cheap propaganda points.

Let me tell you something. the Israeli government enlists the services of some of the largest PR firms in the world to dupe half wits like yourself into forming such an opinion. The Palestinians can't afford such luxuries in the propaganda war. So if anyone is spinning you a yarn, it's probably your friend here Mr. Rubin.

Just like whenever there's a scuffle between the IDF and Palestinians, without fail, we can be guaranteed to read that there was a gunman or militant amongst the Palestinians, and that the IDF were merely 'retaliating'. There's 2 things that are always 100% guaranteed certainties in the Middle East. Arab dictators % of the vote and the IDF's reports that anyone they shot was a militant, harbouring a militant or was being used as a human shield for militants. Unfortunately for you and Mr. Rubin, some ex-IDF servicemen have come out and told the truth, that this is all a load of bollocks. It's forr a good reason that international media are being prevented from entering Gaza, even though an Israeli High Court decision has ruled they must be allowed in... national security and all.. on the advice of the PR firms, no doubt.

mantra,

Quote:


I'm an optimist

There's still hope for these people.

Quote:


I know, i've seen polls and I regularly speak with average Australians about this issue, most of whom may not support the Palestinians, but they do feel sympathy for them. We are very different from the US, thankfully, in this respect, and perhaps more in line with the European view.

Generally it is only right wing Christian extremists or white power types who strongly support Israel. Outside of these groups, they have very little support.

Quote:


You can disagree with me all you want, doesn't worry me. But let's get one thing very clear. Just because I have a different opinion to yours, does not make me a 'half-wit'. So let's get away from the ad hominem attacks concerning my alleged lack of intelligence.

Quote:


Abu, what about at Munich? That was less than 30 years. And they would have been having to be training for a long time to get to that kind of standard.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cbe_1201046708

Have a look at this video about the rocket attacks on Israel, showing regular people in Israel having to put up with them, continually since 2005 - when Israel made the mistake of giving the Palestinians what they wanted, withdrawing from Gaza. But Gaza just became the new staging area for the war of annihilation against the Jews. No good Israeli deed goes unpunished.

In the first few seconds of footage, the Red Color warning system is heard. This detects rockets being fired and gives you a few seconds (not long at all watch) to take cover. The system is saying the words Tzeva Adom, which means Red Color, or, Red Alert.

Israel is the only country in the world that has showed that much restraint in the face of continual provocation. How many rockets would Israel have to send into Iran, Egypt, Jordan - for them to retaliate? Probably 1.  But in the topsy turvy right is wrong and wrong is right of the Dreamland Left, Israel is supposed to keep copping missle attacks and suicide bombers and do nothing in response. Ever.

Here's another one:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dfc_1230603635

Calanen,

Quote:


A good example of how the Israeli PR campaign has managed to seep into the minds of the fickle.

Israelis, most of those in Sderot and other towns close to Gaza are new immigrants from nice homes in the US, UK etc. are just 'regular people' (you know like you and me, normal everyday type of people) have to put up with rocket attacks. Palestinians on the other hand, who are just living in their land that they've been in for thousands of years, don't have another home that they left for the 'adventure of aliyah', are some kind of sub-human that don't put up with rocket fire, and their apartments being turned into dust, they actually deserve it, because they're sub-humans, not regular people like you and me.

Don't you ever wonder why thousands of nameless Palestinians have just been obliterated out of history over the past few years, by the invading Zionists forces. You didn't hear a thing about them except that they were somehow linked to militants and therefore their namelessness is warranted, and we shouldn't even associate them with humanity, they were just figures, statistics. Unlike every single Zionist who dies, and we hear about their life story on the 6 o'clock news, and see pictures of their grieving relatives, and we hear their names, and maybe something about their aspirations for the future which have now been horribly stolen from them by some barbarous act... Yet you have the nerve to come up with terms like "Pallywood"??

I think anyone with some basic common sense should be able to look at this situation and see that nothing about it is balanced, nothing about it is just, nothing about it is fair, nothing about it is right, it is all tipped quite obviously in someone's favour. Doesn't that bother you? Doesn't arouse any suspicion in you? Or does your xenophobic hatred for Islam and all associated with it blind you to it all?

Awaits another 3 post cut and paste from jihadwatch or dhimmiwatch, or some Jewish blog.... Don't bother mate, we've heard it all before.

abu - so has hamas continually sent rockets over to israel ?

yes/no ??

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 6^th, 2009 at 5:53am:



Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. They had elections. Free to get on with the job of improving their own lives. Aid money from EU and US. What do they do? Build a society? No, Fire rockets into Israel.
Gaza was unoccupied. They had NO reason to fire rocketrs into Israel. Absolutely none. But they still made it a priority. Why?
I think because they don't give a toss about sovereignty, freedom and all that. The only thing that matters is the destruction of Israel. That's all they care about.
Fatah is the corrupt slow jihadis, Hamas the fanatical fast jihadis. It is ONLY about jihad.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=500_1231216177

More Pallywood, little chubby girl from central Pallywood casting (guess she wasnt affected by the food shortage), is miraculously healed during the course of the footage.

I don't know how anyone can support what Israel do.

Especially you sprint, you call yourself a Christian and encourage death at the hands of humans.

How old are those photos Calanen?

If you think the USA/Israel/everyone else doesn't propaganda, you are mistaken.

I thought I had seen those photos before, is all. Must be mistaken, or de ja vu, or they are using the same ones still.

Gaybriel wrote on Jan 6^th, 2009 at 10:38pm:



Well, here's more crazy propaganda for you:

Israel pulled out of gaza in 2005. It was completely judenfrei. Still, since hamas was elected in 2006, they fired thousands of rockets into Israel - which was NOT occupying gaza.  Hamas had absolutely no justification to fire those rockets.

So - why do it?

Quote:


Tu quoque (IPA: /tu ˈkwoʊkwɛ/, Latin for "You, too" or "You, also") is a Latin term used to mean a type of logical fallacy. The argument states that a certain position is false or wrong and/or should be disregarded because its proponent fails to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the party itself, rather than its positions.

Contents [hide]
1 Illegitimate use
1.1 You-too version
1.1.1 Legal aspects
1.2 Inconsistency version
2 Legitimate uses
2.1 You-too version
2.2 Inconsistency version
3 See also
4 References

Illegitimate use

In many cases tu quoque arguments are used in a logically fallacious way, to draw a conclusion which is not supported by the premises of the argument.

You-too version

This form of the argument is as follows:

A makes criticism P.
A is also guilty of P.
Therefore, P is dismissed.
This is an instance of the two wrongs make a right fallacy.

Example:

"He cannot accuse me of libel because he was just successfully sued for libel."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

Soren wrote on Jan 6^th, 2009 at 11:02pm:


I think the plight of palestinians has been fairly covered here

the propaganda I refer to is the israeli govt denying what has been blatantly proven to be true.

Soren wrote on Jan 6^th, 2009 at 11:07pm:


I'm not-I've just said it all before and don't feel like repeating myself. read my other posts

Gaybriel wrote on Jan 6^th, 2009 at 11:11pm:



I had a look. I could see no reference in your posts to hamas rockets and the causes of the current israeli bombings.

You are dodging because you cannot justify why it is OK for hamas to fire rockets when gaza is NOT occupied by israel. So you state that you had said it all before when in fact you have not. Isn't that a form of propaganda? It is.

Calanen wrote on Jan 6^th, 2009 at 11:47pm:


no I was answering a question you put out there. yes it was to easel but I was giving my opinion. my opinion is that america also puts out propaganda and that some of that propaganda is produced in hollywood movies such as body of lies

so now you want staged photos? not just examples of propaganda? the criteria keeps narrowing. how convenient

again- where did I say this justifies pallowood as you call it.

wow- I'm using 'islamic tactics' am I. amazing- I must have taken a course somewhere