Australian Politics Forum - Is Atheism just another religion ?

muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #75 - Nov 28^th, 2008 at 10:56am

freediver wrote on Nov 27^th, 2008 at 11:49am:

That kind of misses the point. The purpose of a standard is to judge what that reality is. Using the reality as the standard creates a circularity.

Good. I'm glad you recognise that. Nevertheless the underlying reality exists. It's a necessary postulate for just about everything.

So would you apply the same precepts to morality as you do to reality?

Does not the concept of God also create a circularity in morality?

To answer your original question - I thought you were heading for a 'God explains/makes sense of all' precept.

Reality is to God as Morality is to ....let's call it muso kai. Grin

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50106 At my desk.	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #76 - Nov 28^th, 2008 at 10:59am No. Morality is a human construct. Reality isn't. So what did you mean by some things being 'more factual' than others? If reality is not a standard, what is your 'universal standard'?
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muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #77 - Nov 28^th, 2008 at 11:12am

freediver wrote on Nov 28^th, 2008 at 10:59am:

No. Morality is a human construct. Reality isn't.

Hmmm I misjudged you. So you don't believe in absolute morality?
- only muso kai?

I actually agree with you on ultimate reality, however the perception of reality is a different matter.

Quote:

So what did you mean by some things being 'more factual' than others?

Some things can be almost universally verified as being factual. The underlying principle that reality is independent of the observer (don't get side-tracked with Quantum mechanics here) is an example. Nobody, except maybe Crassulus would differ on that.
Quote:

If reality is not a standard, what is your 'universal standard'?

I think I answered that.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50106 At my desk.	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #78 - Nov 28^th, 2008 at 11:14am Are absolute morality and moality as a human construct mutually exclusive?
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muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #79 - Nov 28^th, 2008 at 11:24am

freediver wrote on Nov 28^th, 2008 at 11:14am:

Are absolute morality and moality as a human construct mutually exclusive?

LOL. Are you normally this elusive? Grin

How long is a piece of string? It depends entirely on how you define absolute morality. I can see that the typical Christian paradigm would see a clash there because it would regard absolute morality as 'extrinsic'.

All I can say is that muso kai and absolute morality are mutually exclusive.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50106 At my desk.	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #80 - Nov 28^th, 2008 at 11:27am What do you mean by extrinsic?
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muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #81 - Nov 28^th, 2008 at 11:29am

freediver wrote on Nov 28^th, 2008 at 11:27am:

What do you mean by extrinsic?

An intrinsic characteristic that is derived externally. You know - created in the image of God etc.

LOL maybe I'd better define muso kai too. Grin

It's a Zen concept.

Muso kai is short for muso shenji kai, or formless precepts of the mindground. It implies that naturally pure behaviour arises from the enlightened mind rather than from an 'external' (or extrinsic) moral code.

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« Last Edit: Nov 28^th, 2008 at 11:35am by muso »

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50106 At my desk.	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #82 - Nov 28^th, 2008 at 11:34am I don't get why there would be a clash. If humans are created in the image of God, then a human construct can still ultimately come from God.
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muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #83 - Nov 28^th, 2008 at 11:36am

freediver wrote on Nov 28^th, 2008 at 11:34am:

I don't get why there would be a clash. If humans are created in the image of God, then a human construct can still ultimately come from God.

Cool. It was just the distinction that you drew initially that surprised me - The statement that morality is just a human construct.

Contrasting morality with reality is bordering on heresy isn't it? Wink

Although one man's heretic is another man's true believer. I guess.

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« Last Edit: Nov 28^th, 2008 at 11:42am by muso »

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #84 - Nov 28^th, 2008 at 12:12pm By the way, I can see a lot of merit in the concept of Muso kai, because it has been my experience that there is a broad correlation between education level and morality. I see morality as a consequence or product of a well-functioning brain. That's probably controversial of course.
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Yadda

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #85 - Nov 28^th, 2008 at 12:52pm

muso wrote on Nov 28^th, 2008 at 12:12pm:

By the way, I can see a lot of merit in the concept of Muso kai, because it has been my experience that there is a broad correlation between education level and morality.

I see morality as a consequence or product of a well-functioning brain. That's probably controversial of course.

muso,

We all seem believe that what we [ourselves] do is OK, morally.

Otherwise, we would behave in another way.

But, personally, i do not have much confidence in man's own determinations, of his own 'morality'.

In our world today,

BLACK is WHITE.
And WHITE is BLACK.
UP is DOWN.
And DOWN is UP.

UN Human Rights Commission members include...

China [Tiananmen Square, continuing human rights abuses, Tibet.] !!,
Zimbabwe [what need i say????] !!,
Saudi Arabia [persecution of Christians, and muslim apostates, Google, Saudi Arabia maid abuse ] !!,
Russia [repression of free speech, assassinations of journalists, and 'opposition' politicians],
Pakistan [persecution of Christians, and muslim apostates] !!,
Sudan [ethnic cleansing in Darfur, the Gillian Gibbons 'insulting ISLAM', teddy bear 'incident'] !!,
Egypt [persecution of Christians, and muslim apostates] !!

Some past members of UNHRC include...
Algeria, Vietnam, Syria and Libya.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Commission_on_Human_Rights#Criticism

Q.
Why is our world in a mess?

A.
We hate the TRUTH.
.....especially as it relates to exposing our own conduct [our 'morality'].

Our [mankind's] 'solution'?

We 'redefine' the TRUTH.

ergo.....

BLACK is WHITE.
And WHITE is BLACK.
UP is DOWN.
And DOWN is UP.

But no-one can stop the sea tide, from coming in, in its time.

No-one can piss into the wind, and not become 'soiled'.

And in the same way, no-one can defy [ignore] TRUTH, and hope to avoid the consequences, for very long.

The chooks will come home to roost.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #86 - Nov 28^th, 2008 at 2:02pm

Yadda wrote on Nov 28^th, 2008 at 12:52pm:

muso wrote on Nov 28^th, 2008 at 12:12pm:

By the way, I can see a lot of merit in the concept of Muso kai, because it has been my experience that there is a broad correlation between education level and morality.

I see morality as a consequence or product of a well-functioning brain. That's probably controversial of course.

muso,

We all seem believe that what we [ourselves] do is OK, morally.

Otherwise, we would behave in another way.

But, personally, i do not have much confidence in man's own determinations, of his own 'morality'.

Yadda,

I think there is always a distinction between what is believed to be right and what is actually done.

Take the recent case of child abuse in the Anglican church, where senior clergy hushed up reports and did everything to deny them.

Maybe there was a clash of morals there. Maybe they believed that it was in the interest of the church to keep it quiet? or maybe they thought that if they ignored it and put it in the too hard basket, there was a good chance that it would go away.

Where would your loyalties lie in such a case?

I think I have quoted this before. It's part of the catholic Catechism:

"Man has the right to act according to his conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters"

As far as religious influences are concerned, I've seen equally good and bad behaviour from people of many different religions throughout the world. As far as I can gauge, moral behaviour is largely independent of religion.

There are exceptions of course. The Southern States of the US are quite entrenched in fundamentalist Christianity, and they have the highest church attendances and outward signs of adherence to Christianity.

Yet the proof of the pudding is in the statistics in this case - these are also the states with the highest teenage abortion rates, divorce rates, venereal disease and violent crime per capita. There is apparently a positive correlation between fundamentalist religion and these markers of social dysfunction, and it's far from subtle.

- but of course correlation does not confirm causation

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« Last Edit: Nov 28^th, 2008 at 2:23pm by muso »

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Yadda

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #87 - Nov 28^th, 2008 at 2:32pm

muso wrote on Nov 28^th, 2008 at 2:02pm:

Yadda wrote on Nov 28^th, 2008 at 12:52pm:

muso wrote on Nov 28^th, 2008 at 12:12pm:

By the way, I can see a lot of merit in the concept of Muso kai, because it has been my experience that there is a broad correlation between education level and morality.

I see morality as a consequence or product of a well-functioning brain. That's probably controversial of course.

muso,

We all seem believe that what we [ourselves] do is OK, morally.

Otherwise, we would behave in another way.

But, personally, i do not have much confidence in man's own determinations, of his own 'morality'.

Yadda,

I think there is always a distinction between what is believed to be right and what is actually done.

Take the recent case of child abuse in the Anglican church, where senior clergy hushed up reports and did everything to deny them.

Maybe there was a clash of morals there. Maybe they believed that it was in the interest of the church to keep it quiet? or maybe they thought that if they ignored it and put it in the too hard basket, there was a good chance that it would go away.

Where would your loyalties lie in such a case?

muso,

I hope that i would always be in favour of revealing the TRUTH.

Even though i know, sometimes doing so, can be painful [for ourselves, and others].

I firmly believe that, Peace comes through Justice.

Always.

And, there can be no Justice, without free and open TRUTH.

Its not rocket science.

But many ppl hate the TRUTH [in my opinion].

Quote:

I think I have quoted this before. It's part of the catholic Catechism:

"Man has the right to act according to his conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters"

As far as religious influences are concerned, I've seen equally good and bad behaviour from people of many different religions. As far as I can guage, moral behaviour is largely independent of religion.

There are exceptions of course. The Southern States of the US are quite entrenched in fundamentalist Christianity, and they are also the states with the highest teenage abortion rates, venereal disease and violent crime per capita. There is obviously a positive correlation between fundamentalist religion and these markers of social dysfunction.

- but a correlation does not confirm causation.

muso,

I don't believe in 'religion'.
....i believe that the meaning of the word has been 'perverted'.

I know that some here would probably suggest that i am fundamentalist Christian?

Dictionary,
religion = = 1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. Ø a particular system of faith and worship.
2 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion.

My definition of the word RELIGION, would go something like this....
.....Our religion, is the way we live, and conduct ourselves, in our lives.

And i would regard all ppl, including 'Atheists', in a like manner.

Our life, is an expression of our real 'religion'.

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« Last Edit: Nov 28^th, 2008 at 2:41pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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tallowood

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #88 - Nov 28^th, 2008 at 2:41pm

muso wrote on Nov 28^th, 2008 at 2:02pm:

...
As far as religious influences are concerned, I've seen equally good and bad behaviour from people of many different religions throughout the world. As far as I can gauge, moral behaviour is largely independent of religion.

There are exceptions of course. The Southern States of the US are quite entrenched in fundamentalist Christianity, and they have the highest church attendances and outward signs of adherence to Christianity.

Yet the proof of the pudding is in the statistics in this case - these are also the states with the highest teenage abortion rates, divorce rates, venereal disease and violent crime per capita. There is apparently a positive correlation between fundamentalist religion and these markers of social dysfunction, and it's far from subtle.

- but of course correlation does not confirm causation

Interestingly enough the same statistical parameters measured in atheistic USSR showed even more disturbing picture. So there was apparently even more positive correlation between fundamentalist atheism and the markers of social dysfunction.

Of course I don't imply in any way that the faith in god's non-existence was the reason for that behavioural pattern.

PS: muso kai is another religion too. sounds noice, but there is no statistics for it yet.

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ישראל חיה ערבים לערבים

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #89 - Nov 28^th, 2008 at 8:24pm

tallowood wrote on Nov 28^th, 2008 at 2:41pm:

Interestingly enough the same statistical parameters measured in atheistic USSR showed even more disturbing picture. So there was apparently even more positive correlation between fundamentalist atheism and the markers of social dysfunction.

Of course I don't imply in any way that the faith in god's non-existence was the reason for that behavioural pattern.

PS: muso kai is another religion too. sounds noice, but there is no statistics for it yet.

Tallow - re that last remark, I'm going to call you a

dag

. You can interpret that as a very mild personal attack if you like, but you're probably proud of it anyway, knowing you. Grin

I already told you that muso kai is just a principle from Zen Buddhism, and I just said that I found it useful as a concept. You could no more say that muso kai is a religion than the practice of swinging the smoke censer in a church. It's just a precept from a religion. (you dag)

Now as for the USSR, I'll check my original source. You can check it too - it's a Christian source as far as I'm aware, so you can't accuse me of taking the data from a biased source (LOL):

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

Russia doesn't seem to be in that study, but Sweden is, and Sweden is possibly (edit - definitely)more atheistic than Russia.

I know my source of information. Could I have yours please?
(Good try anyway)

Yadda,

Don't you think it's a problem that you could define just about anything by that second definition:

2 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion.

So horse racing or stamp collecting are religions?

Why do you think that a simple lack of belief in deities could be construed as a religion? It's not a pursuit, it's not even an interest and it is rarely followed with devotion, save a few eccentrics like Richard Dawkins and other bus advertising fools - and it certainly doesn't define a lifestyle. From my part it's not something that I even take pride in, or regard as in any way special or important.

If anything, I appreciate the moral lessons from Christianity for the most part, but I believe that if Jesus Christ could come back to life today, he would be extremely disappointed in some of the things people say and believe in his name. That's all I'll say about that for now.

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