Australian Politics Forum - Is Atheism just another religion ?

Kytro

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #15 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 12:25pm

tallowood wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 12:02pm:

Newton and Einstein were not atheists. They were scientists.

There is nothing about science that requires you hold any particular beliefs about any subject. It merely requires that you follow the scientific method.

People are perfectly capable of good science on one hand, but can hold a totally irrational belief about something else.

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6048	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #16 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 12:59pm rational http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rational Quote: 1 a: having reason or understanding b: relating to, based on, or agreeable to reason : reasonable <a rational explanation> <rational behavior> Very subjective. What seems reasonable to one person may be total banana to somebody else.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49963 At my desk.	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #17 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 1:05pm Often things seem rational until you point out the fallacy they are based on. Then the people who thought it was rational concede that it isn't. That is objective enough for me.
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Kytro

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #18 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 1:07pm

tallowood wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 12:59pm:

rational http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rational

Quote:

1 a: having reason or understanding b: relating to, based on, or agreeable to reason : reasonable <a rational explanation> <rational behavior>

Very subjective. What seems reasonable to one person may be total banana to somebody else.

There is some subjectiveness involved, however I think the key phrase is agreeable to reason.

From Wiki:
Quote:

Reason involves the ability to think, understand and draw conclusions in an abstract way, as in human thinking. The meaning of the word "reason" overlaps to a large extent with "rationality" and the adjective of reason in philosophical contexts is normally "rational", not "reasonable".

In action, reasoning involves a conscious attempt to discover what is true and what is best. Reasoning thought follows a chain of cause and effect, and the word "reason" can be a synonym for "cause".

As one way of coming to conclusions, reason is often contrasted to emotion, tradition and faith—the "rationalist" argument being that reason is the more reliable way to arrive at that truth.

I think this sum up nicely what I am trying to say. If one relies on faith they must, by definition not rely on reason - they do not try to discover the truth, they simply trust that it is.

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tallowood

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #19 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 3:03pm

Kytro wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 1:07pm:

...
I think this sum up nicely what I am trying to say. If one relies on faith they must, by definition not rely on reason - they do not try to discover the truth, they simply trust that it is.

The definition of reason from wiki describes it as some sort of logical process. But belief is not process it is more like an an axiom or postulate so one can rely on a faith and use reason at the same time. That is exactly what we see in arguments of theists and atheists ... different inputs(believes) into the machine of logic and on another end we receive different but in both cases reasoned outputs of world vision. Both are rational in the way that both were reasoned.

That is why atheism is just another religious system.

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Kytro

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #20 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 3:58pm

tallowood wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 3:03pm:

The definition of reason from wiki describes it as some sort of logical process. But belief is not process it is more like an an axiom or postulate so one can rely on a faith and use reason at the same time. That is exactly what we see in arguments of theists and atheists ... different inputs(believes) into the machine of logic and on another end we receive different but in both cases reasoned outputs of world vision. Both are rational in the way that both were reasoned.

That is why atheism is just another religious system.

Belief can be reasoned, but it is not always reasoned well. The issue I have with faith is almost all reasoning is done back the front. The conclusion is known, and people then look for facts to support it, rather than drawing a conclusion from the available facts.

I do want to make the point that being an Atheist is no insurance of solid reasoning, nor is a guarantee that one is not religious (only that one does not believe in a god).

I do maintain though that most religious beliefs are not rational beliefs. That is they are not born of cause of and effect. Rational thought and logic are in my opinion inseparable.

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freediver

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #21 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 4:04pm

Quote:

Belief can be reasoned, but it is not always reasoned well. The issue I have with faith is almost all reasoning is done back the front. The conclusion is known, and people then look for facts to support it, rather than drawing a conclusion from the available facts.

Thomas Kuhn makes a good argument that the same can be said about scientists, but that this is not a barrier to science.

Quote:

I do maintain though that most religious beliefs are not rational beliefs. That is they are not born of cause of and effect. Rational thought and logic are in my opinion inseparable.

Most religious people claim a basis in both faith and evidence for their belief and seem to apply the different standards appropriately. That is, they claim faith as the basis for their 'spiritual' beliefs and evidence as the basis for their 'more specific' beliefs.

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Kytro

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #22 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 4:28pm

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 4:04pm:

Thomas Kuhn makes a good argument that the same can be said about scientists, but that this is not a barrier to science.

Certainly some scientists are capable looking for evidence to support the position they hold, more so when funding is on the line. The good thing about the scientific method is that the work can be verified.

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 4:04pm:

Most religious people claim a basis in both faith and evidence for their belief and seem to apply the different standards appropriately. That is, they claim faith as the basis for their 'spiritual' beliefs and evidence as the basis for their 'more specific' beliefs.

While this is may be the case that does not make the spiritual beliefs rational beliefs. Since faith is inherently not rational - it does not concern itself with cause and effect, or the why and how, it concerns itself only with acceptance.

People are capable of rational beliefs and irrational beliefs - and everyone has some degree of both.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49963 At my desk.	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #23 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 4:35pm Is a spiritual belief irrational if you acknowledge its basis in faith? Isn't it only irrational if you claim it to be otherwise? That is, it is the claim of logic or empiricism that is irrational, but not the belief itself.
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athos

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #24 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 4:47pm

In my opinion atheism discourages people to follow basic logic and to try to understand the whole picture. If we are focused only on sensual and materialistic based values then we have to ask ourselves: Is it possible that our whole existence is meaningless?. For example have a look this: You are born then you struggle to succeed in the life by trying to get a good job, car, house, good standard of living, position in the society and so on.
And when you achieve all of this ( if you manage to achieve ) then everything what you achieved is cancelled by your death. Where is the reword for your effort and the most important what is then the meaning and purpose of that struggle for an individual from strictly materialistic point of view.
If there is no meaning in this material dimension then must be meaning in something else what we probably already achieved out of material world and what will remain immortal and permanent with us.

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tallowood

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #25 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 8:07pm

Kytro wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 3:58pm:

tallowood wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 3:03pm:

The definition of reason from wiki describes it as some sort of logical process. But belief is not process it is more like an an axiom or postulate so one can rely on a faith and use reason at the same time. That is exactly what we see in arguments of theists and atheists ... different inputs(believes) into the machine of logic and on another end we receive different but in both cases reasoned outputs of world vision. Both are rational in the way that both were reasoned.

That is why atheism is just another religious system.

Belief can be reasoned, but it is not always reasoned well. The issue I have with faith is almost all reasoning is done back the front. The conclusion is known, and people then look for facts to support it, rather than drawing a conclusion from the available facts.

I do want to make the point that being an Atheist is no insurance of solid reasoning, nor is a guarantee that one is not religious (only that one does not believe in a god).

I do maintain though that most religious beliefs are not rational beliefs. That is they are not born of cause of and effect. Rational thought and logic are in my opinion inseparable.

That is your not rational religious belief and you're entitled to have it too.

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #26 - Nov 26^th, 2008 at 11:32am

tallowood wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 3:03pm:

That is why atheism is just another religious system.

Ok. So according to your definition a religion is a simple belief devoid of common devotional activities and other baggage we associate with religions. So any simple belief or preference or personal judgement is a ....religion!

Like 2sugarsinmycoffeeism and blueismyfavouritecolourism and Itsgettinghotinherism and illtakeoffallmyclothesism ?...

Ipreferdogstocatsism ...

Did you hear about the agnostic dyslexic insomniac?

He stayed awake all night wondering if there was a dog.

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #27 - Nov 26^th, 2008 at 11:37am

freediver wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 4:35pm:

Is a spiritual belief irrational if you acknowledge its basis in faith? Isn't it only irrational if you claim it to be otherwise? That is, it is the claim of logic or empiricism that is irrational, but not the belief itself.

I'd say that spiritual belief starts to become irrational when you acknowledge its basis in sure knowledge as opposed to faith.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49963 At my desk.	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #28 - Nov 26^th, 2008 at 11:53am What is the difference between 'sure knowledge' and faith?
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muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #29 - Nov 26^th, 2008 at 12:13pm

freediver wrote on Nov 26^th, 2008 at 11:53am:

What is the difference between 'sure knowledge' and faith?

I know where you're going with that question, and I'd rather not go there.

Knowledge (factual intelligence) is a higher standard than belief, although some of the things we believe are also factual. For example you can say "He believes it, but it isn't so", but not "He knows it, but it isn't so".

An example of what I loosely referred to as 'sure knowledge' that you might apply to yourself is "I exist".

It's related to fact. Fact can be tested and verified to the agreement of the vast majority of people . A belief in God cannot be tested and verified, therefore it is belief rather than knowledge.

I'm not talking about the way that 'know' is used sometimes in religion. eg I know that my redeemer liveth.

That's more a faith based or motivational type of knowledge.

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