Australian Politics Forum - Is Atheism just another religion ?

muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #135 - Dec 1^st, 2008 at 8:38am tallowood wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 8:28am: What is more important? 1 to understand that religion and conviction are not necessarily the same thing OR 2 to understand the meaning of homonym Tallow - you dag
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muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #136 - Dec 1^st, 2008 at 8:53am

- and the majority of the vast unwashed non-religious would never "declare themselves to be an atheist' either. Now that has a kind of revivalist ring to it.

Ask the average Australian 'atheist' what their religion is and they'd think about it then state that they're not really religious - if you press them further, they'd agree that they don't believe in God.

Rejecting dogmatic religion is not exactly one of their prime interests, as the majority would find religion to be downright boring or irrelevant. The worst they'll do is say in a low tone "See that guy over there? He's a Bible thumper"

Now ask them about fishing, sport or drinking with the mates, and you might just elicit a more engaged response.

In the United States, it's a different matter. They have a real barrow to push, because most mainstream Christians over there are well more than a little bit scary Grin

We have some of the handclappers here, but there are not enough of them to run you out of town or monopolise business or generally make your social life a misery. As a result, most Australians where I come from are pretty apathetic to religion.

In the younger age-groups, as much as 45% are atheist, or non religious. The non-religious are growing at a rate of 3% per Census year.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #137 - Dec 1^st, 2008 at 9:39am

muso wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 8:33am:

Everybody seems to define 'Atheist' differently. As far as I am concerned, it is the natural state to be atheist. Children are born atheist.

I have also argued before that it is a tiny minority of Atheists who would 'reject dogmatic religion'

I don't have any problem with your conviction, but I just don't think it's as widespread as you seem to think it is. You're attempting to narrow the definition of atheist, and for some reason align with the current fundamentalist Christian misconception of the term.

The prefix a- should be applied in the same way that other words with this prefix are treated. 'Amoral' simply means without morals. A-theist
means without God or gods. It boils down to a lack of belief in deities.

By all means stick with your own personal version of atheism, but please recognise that it is not necessary for the definition.

I simply do not believe in deities. If I do not 'reject dogmatic religion' does that make me any less of an 'atheist'? I don't think so.

I do happen to reject arrogance and meat, but that has nothing to do with the atheist bit.

It’s rather meaningless to assign the term atheist to an infant as much as it would be to define them as Keynesian economists or adherents of the membrane theory. Without developed reasoning faculties their capacity to discern whether or not they believe X is true is in the realm of what Rumsfeld would call an unknown unknown… they do not know that they do not know.

Which dogmatic religions would atheists (in general parlance) claim to believe?

Words have meaning dependent on how they are used and the term atheist has come to mean more than simply a disbelief in the existence of god(s) in the same way that the word ‘awful’ once exclusively meant ‘deserving of awe’ and now is closer in meaning to ‘dreadful’ – hence the use of the term ‘awesome’ to somewhat revive the old definition and avoid semantic confusion.

Given that nearly all extant religions posit a dogma of the existence of god(s), to reject the existence of such is by that fact to reject the central and crucial tenet of the religion without which adherence to the religion is meaningless. You cannot embrace Islam or Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or many of their various expressions without belief in a god or gods.

To reject arrogance and meat (making you a vegetarian with humility) does not appear to be the definition of a religious belief but an indication that you hold convictions that having humility and being a vegetarian (for whatever reason) are part of your preferred lifestyle.

Which dogmatic religion do you still embrace as a self-declared atheist?

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« Last Edit: Dec 1^st, 2008 at 9:45am by NorthOfNorth »

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #138 - Dec 1^st, 2008 at 9:50am

muso wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 8:53am:

Ask the average Australian 'atheist' what their religion is and they'd think about it then state that they're not really religious - if you press them further, they'd agree that they don't believe in God.

Rejecting dogmatic religion is not exactly one of their prime interests, as the majority would find religion to be downright boring or irrelevant. The worst they'll do is say in a low tone "See that guy over there? He's a Bible thumper"

I'm not surpised that they consider being non-religious and having no belief in god to be both bound into the definition of 'atheist', because that is what the term has come to mean.

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #139 - Dec 1^st, 2008 at 9:55am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 9:39am:

Which dogmatic religion do you still embrace as a self-declared atheist?

None. The key word is reject. I understand it to be a very active term. I don't happen to hold any religious beliefs, dogmatic or otherwise, but I don't see the harm in most religion either.

So I don't reject any religions. I actually have been known to encourage them by donating to the Church fete or some such thing.

The way I feel, not all religions are dogmatic .

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« Last Edit: Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:10am by muso »

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #140 - Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:11am

muso wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 9:55am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 9:39am:

Which dogmatic religion do you still embrace as a self-declared atheist?

None. The key word is reject. I understand it to be a very active term. I don't happen to hold any religious beliefs, dogmatic or otherwise, but I don't see the harm in most religion either.

So I don't reject any religions. I actually have been known to encourage them by donating to the Church fete or some such thing.

All religions are not dogmatic the way I feel.

I'm not surprised that you do not hold any religious beliefs... you have declared yourself an atheist, after all.

You may see no harm in religion but no doubt you reject the veracity of their tenets, particularly where those tenets refer to god(s).

Which religions have no dogma?

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #141 - Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:21am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 9:39am:

It’s rather meaningless to assign the term atheist to an infant as much as it would be to define them as Keynesian economists or adherents of the membrane theory.

You're reading too much into it. Atheist in the contemporary definition means lack of belief in gods. The test is "I don't believe in gods". Now add something to that statement to define me as something other than an atheist. "but I do believe in horoscopes" - still an atheist. "but I believe in magic martians" - still an atheist.

We're talking about the general definition here. Other definitions are specific definitions of different types of atheist. A Buddhist can certainly be atheistic. Many, if not most Taoists are also atheistic.

When there is absolutely no evidence for something, even a young child will recognise that it's not there. It doesn't require sophisticated patterns of thought or debate or anything like that.

"Doggy here!" - "Doggy gone"

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« Last Edit: Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:27am by muso »

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muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #142 - Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:26am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:11am:

muso wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 9:55am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 9:39am:

Which dogmatic religion do you still embrace as a self-declared atheist?

None. The key word is reject. I understand it to be a very active term. I don't happen to hold any religious beliefs, dogmatic or otherwise, but I don't see the harm in most religion either.

So I don't reject any religions. I actually have been known to encourage them by donating to the Church fete or some such thing.

All religions are not dogmatic the way I feel.

I'm not surprised that you do not hold any religious beliefs... you have declared yourself an atheist, after all.

You may see no harm in religion but no doubt you reject the veracity of their tenets, particularly where those tenets refer to god(s).

Which religions have no dogma?

Aboriginal Dreaming? Deism? Zen? Hinduism? Neo- paganism? Javacrucianism? Taoism?

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Израиль Навсегда Posts: 6580	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #143 - Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:28am muso wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 8:38am: tallowood wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 8:28am: What is more important? 1 to understand that religion and conviction are not necessarily the same thing OR 2 to understand the meaning of homonym Tallow - you dag And you are ..... religious atheist
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muso

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #144 - Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:34am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:11am:

you have declared yourself an atheist, after all.

Well I do declare! "declare' is a bit strong isn't it? I regard it more of a reluctant conclusion than a declaration. I lack belief in gods, so just like that colocasia over there in the garden, or that ..gecko running up the wall, I suppose I must be an atheist organism too.

- but it's hardly an iconoclastic conclusion.

So what do you consider yourself to be? Agnostic?

Here's a test:

Q: Do you happen to believe in any god or gods?

Yes - Theist of some description
No= Atheist of some description.

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tallowood

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #145 - Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:37am

muso wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:26am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:11am:

muso wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 9:55am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 9:39am:

Which dogmatic religion do you still embrace as a self-declared atheist?

None. The key word is reject. I understand it to be a very active term. I don't happen to hold any religious beliefs, dogmatic or otherwise, but I don't see the harm in most religion either.

So I don't reject any religions. I actually have been known to encourage them by donating to the Church fete or some such thing.

All religions are not dogmatic the way I feel.

I'm not surprised that you do not hold any religious beliefs... you have declared yourself an atheist, after all.

You may see no harm in religion but no doubt you reject the veracity of their tenets, particularly where those tenets refer to god(s).

Which religions have no dogma?

Aboriginal Dreaming? Deism? Zen? Hinduism? Neo- paganism? Javacrucianism? Taoism?

You may add mild atheism to this list too.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #146 - Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:40am Ok, Aboriginal Dreaming Deism Zen Hinduism Neo- paganism Javacrucianism Taoism The subset of mild atheists who happen to be religious. (eg Taoists)
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #147 - Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:46am muso wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:26am: Aboriginal Dreaming? Deism? Zen? Hinduism? Neo- paganism? Javacrucianism? Taoism? All religions have a code of tenets which devotees are expected to believe and adhere, they could not be religions otherwise.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Atheism just another religion ?
Reply #148 - Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:59am

muso wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:34am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 1^st, 2008 at 10:11am:

you have declared yourself an atheist, after all.

Well I do declare! "declare' is a bit strong isn't it? I regard it more of a reluctant conclusion than a declaration. I lack belief in gods, so just like that colocasia over there in the garden, or that ..gecko running up the wall, I suppose I must be an atheist organism too.

- but it's hardly an iconoclastic conclusion.

So what do you consider yourself to be? Agnostic?

Here's a test:

Q: Do you happen to believe in any god or gods?

Yes - Theist of some description
No= Atheist of some description.

To lack belief in god(s) is to declare yourself non-theist, you may, however, be a Theravadic Buddhist.

To declare yourself atheist (in the Australian vernacular) is to also declare yourself non-religious.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Is Atheism just another religion ? Reply #149 - Dec 1^st, 2008 at 11:00am It comes down to your definition of dogmatic. dogmatic - Relating to, characteristic of, or resulting from dogma. Dogma: A principle or belief or a group of them So is the belief that gods don't exist a dogma, and therefore dogmatic? Tallow - you're slacking - now I'm doing your job.
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