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Not "climate change" (Read 60426 times)
Soren
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Re: Not "climate change"
Reply #45 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 10:59am
 
Continued...



Out of Balance
When I'm driving to my country home in Somerset, I pass two examples of the damage Greens can cause when their views are accepted and applied. Thanks to heavy government subsidies, many farmers switched from growing food to biofuel crops--perhaps the most expensive form of energy ever devised. The result has been a world shortage of food, with near starvation in some places, and a rise in the cost of food for everyone. We're now getting wise to this ridiculous experiment; shares in biofuels have fallen, and farmers are switching back to their proper work. But the cost has been enormous.

The other thing I pass is a new windmill, spinning slowly around. Windmills were the great invention of the early Middle Ages--man harnessing nature and using it to replace muscle power. When I was a boy more than 70 years ago there were still a few windmills, but nobody doubted they were on their way out. The thought of going back to wind power would have seemed preposterous. Nevertheless, under pressure from Greens this has happened. Wind power is a grotesquely expensive and inefficient form of energy, and the new windmills are hideous things, ruining the landscape and making an infernal noise.

Marxism, Freudianism, global warming. These are proof--of which history offers so many examples--that people can be suckers on a grand scale. To their fanatical followers they are a substitute for religion. Global warming, in particular, is a creed, a faith, a dogma that has little to do with science. If people are in need of religion, why don't they just turn to the genuine article?




Paul Johnson, eminent British historian and author; Lee Kuan Yew, minister mentor of Singapore; Ernesto Zedillo, director, Yale Center for the Study of Globalization, former president of Mexico; and David Malpass, chief economist for Bear Stearns Co., Inc., rotate in writing this column. To see past Current Events columns, visit our Web site at www.forbes.com/currentevents.




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freediver
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Re: Not "climate change"
Reply #46 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 11:06am
 
Quote:
the essence of the Greens' theory of global warming--has about as much basis in science as Marxism and Freudianism


Fortunately it is not 'the Greens' theories that are guiding policy, but scientific consensus.
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Soren
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Re: Not "climate change"
Reply #47 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 11:18am
 
But wait! Even an actual president of country has an opinion. 'Biased' of course.

I agree with Professor Richard Lindzen from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, who said: “future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early 21st century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a globally averaged temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and, on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to contemplate a roll-back of the industrial age”.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9deb730a-19ca-11dc-99c5-000b5df10621.html


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freediver
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Re: Not "climate change"
Reply #48 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 11:34am
 
Did he get that from his crystal ball? These days when we look at past societies, we often wonder how they managed to be so oblivious to their impending, self inflicted collapse.
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muso
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Re: Not "climate change"
Reply #49 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 12:00pm
 
Richard Lindzen is a very interesting case. He is actually qualified. I'll talk more about him later on.
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Soren
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Re: Not "climate change"
Reply #50 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 12:22pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 25th, 2008 at 11:34am:
Did he get that from his crystal ball? These days when we look at past societies, we often wonder how they managed to be so oblivious to their impending, self inflicted collapse.


We'll all be rooned.


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Re: Not "climate change"
Reply #51 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 1:36pm
 
From The Sunday Times
February 11, 2007
An experiment that hints we are wrong on climate change
Nigel Calder, former editor of New Scientist, says the orthodoxy must be challenged

When politicians and journalists declare that the science of global warming is settled, they show a regrettable ignorance about how science works. We were treated to another dose of it recently when the experts of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change issued the Summary for Policymakers that puts the political spin on an unfinished scientific dossier on climate change due for publication in a few months’ time. They declared that most of the rise in temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to man-made greenhouse gases.

The small print explains “very likely” as meaning that the experts who made the judgment felt 90% sure about it. Older readers may recall a press conference at Harwell in 1958 when Sir John Cockcroft, Britain’s top nuclear physicist, said he was 90% certain that his lads had achieved controlled nuclear fusion. It turned out that he was wrong. More positively, a 10% uncertainty in any theory is a wide open breach for any latterday Galileo or Einstein to storm through with a better idea. That is how science really works.

Twenty years ago, climate research became politicised in favour of one particular hypothesis, which redefined the subject as the study of the effect of greenhouse gases. As a result, the rebellious spirits essential for innovative and trustworthy science are greeted with impediments to their research careers. And while the media usually find mavericks at least entertaining, in this case they often imagine that anyone who doubts the hypothesis of man-made global warming must be in the pay of the oil companies. As a result, some key discoveries in climate research go almost unreported.

Enthusiasm for the global-warming scare also ensures that heatwaves make headlines, while contrary symptoms, such as this winter’s billion-dollar loss of Californian crops to unusual frost, are relegated to the business pages. The early arrival of migrant birds in spring provides colourful evidence for a recent warming of the northern lands. But did anyone tell you that in east Antarctica the Adélie penguins and Cape petrels are turning up at their spring nesting sites around nine days later than they did 50 years ago? While sea-ice has diminished in the Arctic since 1978, it has grown by 8% in the Southern Ocean.
Background

    * ‘Blame cosmic rays for warming up the planet’

    * No excuse for soft climate change laws

    * Jeremy Clarkson: Cornered by the green lynch mob

So one awkward question you can ask, when you’re forking out those extra taxes for climate change, is “Why is east Antarctica getting colder?” It makes no sense at all if carbon dioxide is driving global warming. While you’re at it, you might inquire whether Gordon Brown will give you a refund if it’s confirmed that global warming has stopped. The best measurements of global air temperatures come from American weather satellites, and they show wobbles but no overall change since 1999.

That levelling off is just what is expected by the chief rival hypothesis, which says that the sun drives climate changes more emphatically than greenhouse gases do. After becoming much more active during the 20th century, the sun now stands at a high but roughly level state of activity. Solar physicists warn of possible global cooling, should the sun revert to the lazier mood it was in during the Little Ice Age 300 years ago.

Climate history and related archeology give solid support to the solar hypothesis. The 20th-century episode, or Modern Warming, was just the latest in a long string of similar events produced by a hyperactive sun, of which the last was the Medieval Warming.

The Chinese population doubled then, while in Europe the Vikings and cathedral-builders prospered. Fascinating relics of earlier episodes come from the Swiss Alps, with the rediscovery in 2003 of a long-forgotten pass used intermittently whenever the world was warm.

What does the Intergovernmental Panel do with such emphatic evidence for an alternation of warm and cold periods, linked to solar activity and going on long before human industry was a possible factor? Less than nothing. The 2007 Summary for Policymakers boasts of cutting in half a very small contribution by the sun to climate change conceded in a 2001 report.

Disdain for the sun goes with a failure by the self-appointed greenhouse experts to keep up with inconvenient discoveries about how the solar variations control the climate. The sun’s brightness may change too little to account for the big swings in the climate. But more than 10 years have passed since Henrik Svensmark in Copenhagen first pointed out a much more powerful mechanism.

He saw from compilations of weather satellite data that cloudiness varies according to how many atomic particles are coming in from exploded stars. More cosmic rays, more clouds. The sun’s magnetic field bats away many of the cosmic rays, and its intensification during the 20th century meant fewer cosmic rays, fewer clouds, and a warmer world. On the other hand the Little Ice Age was chilly because the lazy sun let in more cosmic rays, leaving the world cloudier and gloomier.
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Grendel
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Re: Not "climate change"
Reply #52 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 1:37pm
 
pt2

The only trouble with Svensmark’s idea — apart from its being politically incorrect — was that meteorologists denied that cosmic rays could be involved in cloud formation. After long delays in scraping together the funds for an experiment, Svensmark and his small team at the Danish National Space Center hit the jackpot in the summer of 2005.

In a box of air in the basement, they were able to show that electrons set free by cosmic rays coming through the ceiling stitched together droplets of sulphuric acid and water. These are the building blocks for cloud condensation. But journal after journal declined to publish their report; the discovery finally appeared in the Proceedings of the Royal Society late last year.

Thanks to having written The Manic Sun, a book about Svensmark’s initial discovery published in 1997, I have been privileged to be on the inside track for reporting his struggles and successes since then. The outcome is a second book, The Chilling Stars, co-authored by the two of us and published next week by Icon books. We are not exaggerating, we believe, when we subtitle it “A new theory of climate change”.

Where does all that leave the impact of greenhouse gases? Their effects are likely to be a good deal less than advertised, but nobody can really say until the implications of the new theory of climate change are more fully worked out.

The reappraisal starts with Antarctica, where those contradictory temperature trends are directly predicted by Svensmark’s scenario, because the snow there is whiter than the cloud-tops. Meanwhile humility in face of Nature’s marvels seems more appropriate than arrogant assertions that we can forecast and even control a climate ruled by the sun and the stars.

The Chilling Stars is published by Icon. It is available for £9.89 including postage from The Sunday Times Books First on 0870 165 8585
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Re: Not "climate change"
Reply #53 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 1:43pm
 
Government policy does not depend on scientific certainty. It depends on risk management. It is not reasonable to equate a statement of liklihood from the scientific community to one from the past proclamation of an individual scientist. If it was one scientist alone claiming 90% certainty you would have a point, but in this case your quthor doesn't.

Quote:
while contrary symptoms, such as this winter’s billion-dollar loss of Californian crops to unusual frost


Grin Grin There it is again. Frost this morning, therefor no global warming. Some people never learn.
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Grendel
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Re: Not "climate change"
Reply #54 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 1:54pm
 
You're sounding more rabid on this than usual fd... 
you who claim to not believe necessarily but decided to support as a matter of risk management...  or "what if"

Oh almost forgot...

SCIENTIFIC PROOF AND FALSIFIABILITY By Dr Timothy Ball
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Re: Not "climate change"
Reply #55 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 1:56pm
 
Risk management is the rational approach to managing uncertainty. Demanding certainty is the irrational approach. We know this intuitively, but some people throw common sense out the window when they really don't want to believe bad news.
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Re: Not "climate change"
Reply #56 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 3:40pm
 
Svenmark's Cosmic Rays paper was discredited about a year or so later. That's old news. In fact I think Grendel or Soren posted something about that before. Let me see if I can find it.

Here (also New Scientist):

http://www.newscientist.com/blog/environment/2008/04/sunset-on-cosmic-rays-theor...

As for the "It's the sun" gambit, we know what the Solar irradiance level has been since we started satellite measurements in '78, and it has been extrapolated back at least as far as the beginning of the 20th century (if not more)

It varies between about 1368 and 1366Wm-2 between 11 year solar cycles. You can find the graph here:

http://www.pmodwrc.ch/pmod.php?topic=tsi/composite/SolarConstant

No, it's not the sun and it's not Cosmic rays. Please remember that and don't bring it up again.  
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« Last Edit: Nov 25th, 2008 at 3:46pm by muso »  

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Re: Not "climate change"
Reply #57 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 3:46pm
 
My mistake, it was another paper that confirmed that the current trend cannot be explained by solar activity. Posted by Skippy.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1224033295/150
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Re: Not "climate change"
Reply #58 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 7:30pm
 
Sorry but nothing you have posted disproves anything re the Sun.  The Sun and our orbit are the primary drivers of climate change.  Always have been.

Now you need to show how this has suddenly changed and give some proof that man made emissions are causing that change.
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Re: Not "climate change"
Reply #59 - Nov 25th, 2008 at 8:34pm
 
oh and this is for you fd, since all you seem to do is shoot messengers...  here's a whole flock of 'em for you to take aim at.

From the Publisher
Al Gore says any scientist who disagrees with him on Global Warming is a kook, or a crook.
Guess he never met these guys

Dr. Edward Wegman--former chairman of the Committee on Applied and Theoretical Statistics of the National Academy of Sciences--demolishes the famous "hockey stick" graph that launched the global warming panic.

Dr. David Bromwich--president of the International Commission on Polar Meteorology--says "it's hard to see a global warming signal from the mainland of Antarctica right now."

Prof. Paul Reiter--Chief of Insects and Infectious Diseases at the famed Pasteur Institute--says "no major scientist with any long record in this field" accepts Al Gore's claim that global warming spreads mosquito-borne diseases.

Prof. Hendrik Tennekes--director of research, Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute--states "there exists no sound theoretical framework for climate predictability studies" used for global warming forecasts.

Dr. Christopher Landsea--past chairman of the American Meteorological Society's Committee on Tropical Meteorology and Tropical Cyclones--says "there are no known scientific studies that show a conclusive physical link between global warming and observed hurricane frequency and intensity."

Dr. Antonino Zichichi--one of the world's foremost physicists, former president of the European Physical Society, who discovered nuclear antimatter--calls global warming models "incoherent and invalid."

Dr. Zbigniew Jaworowski--world-renowned expert on the ancient ice cores used in climate research--says the U.N. "based its global-warming hypothesis on arbitrary assumptions and these assumptions, it is now clear, are false."

Prof. Tom V. Segalstad--head of the Geological Museum, University of Oslo--says "most leading geologists" know the U.N.'s views "of Earth processes are implausible."

Dr. Syun-Ichi Akasofu--founding director of the International Arctic Research Center, twice named one of the "1,000 Most Cited Scientists," says much "Arctic warming during the last half of the last century is due to natural change."

Dr. Claude Allegre--member, U.S. National Academy of Sciences and French Academy of Science, he was among the first to sound the alarm on the dangers of global warming. His view now: "The cause of this climate change is unknown."

Dr. Richard Lindzen--Professor of Meteorology at M.I.T., member, the National Research Council Board on Atmospheric Sciences and Climate, says global warming alarmists "are trumpeting catastrophes that couldn't happen even if the models were right."

Dr. Habibullo Abdussamatov--head of the space research laboratory of the Russian Academy of Science's Pulkovo Observatory and of the International Space Station's Astrometria project says "the common view that man's industrial activity is a deciding factor in global warming has emerged from a misinterpretation of cause and effect relations."

Dr. Richard Tol--Principal researcher at the Institute for Environmental Studies at Vrije Universiteit, and Adjunct Professor at the Center for Integrated Study of the Human Dimensions of Global Change, at Carnegie Mellon University, calls the most influential global warming report of all time "preposterous . . . alarmist and incompetent."

Dr. Sami Solanki--director and scientific member at the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research in Germany, who argues that changes in the Sun's state, not human activity, may be the principal cause of global warming: "The sun has been at its strongest over the past 60 years and may now be affecting global temperatures."

Prof. Freeman Dyson--one of the world's most eminent physicists says the models used to justify global warming alarmism are "full of fudge factors" and "do not begin to describe the real world."

Dr. Eigils Friis-Christensen--director of the Danish National Space Centre, vice-president of the International Association of Geomagnetism and Aeronomy, who argues that changes in the Sun's behavior could account for most of the warming attributed by the UN to man-made CO2.

And many more, all in Lawrence Solomon's devastating new book, The Deniers
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