Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 4
Send Topic Print
Australian fringe politics (Read 10966 times)
tallowood
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6048
Australian fringe politics
Nov 19th, 2008 at 3:01pm
 
It came from here

I am interested to discuss remaking of Australian political system on both state and federal levels. I have already put forward the idea (not mine) of state abolishment but ready to reconsider if there are reasonable alternatives because after all I don't see existence of states as evil in itself but rather as unreasonable financial overhead.

Of course to see reasonable alternatives requires inputs from other members and that in turn requires a full on discussion.


To facilitate such a discussion a single topic is obviously not enough so separate forum seams to be a reasonable idea. To get about it I offer to use the existing Fringe forum to start with, after all it has very little traffic and “remaking of Australian political system” is very much on the fringe of Australian politics at present.

I propose to start with expression of interest in new topic on the Fringe and providing that there is enough of interest expressed there we may reorganise the Fringe by editing or appending rules and electing moderators. In future we even may rename the Fridge in something else if that is important to majority of members.

If you are interested in above please state it in this topic. Those who do will be eligible for voting in how to run this forum.


Back to top
 

ישראל חיה ערבים לערבים
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 51227
At my desk.
Re: Australian fringe politics
Reply #1 - Nov 19th, 2008 at 9:49pm
 
Someone here has already argued in favour of abolishing states, but I can't seem to find the thread.
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
tallowood
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6048
Re: Australian fringe politics
Reply #2 - Nov 19th, 2008 at 10:14pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 19th, 2008 at 9:49pm:
Someone here has already argued in favour of abolishing states, but I can't seem to find the thread.


This far it seems that nobody is really interested in real politics but only in winging, which politics will always provide excuse for.
Back to top
 

ישראל חיה ערבים לערבים
 
IP Logged
 
Grendel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 28080
Gender: male
Re: Australian fringe politics
Reply #3 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 7:47am
 
Well i'm interested.

For starters...  if a state has 4 year fixed terms then we need to have the ability to dismiss the government if as in NSW they have stuffed the joint up completely.  Therefore we need a constitutional reform with an option like they have in the states which is called RECALL.

I'm happy to retain mandatory voting even though tribal voting distorts the outcome and uninformed people also distort the vote, and in a true democracy you should have the right to with-hold your vote.  mind you even now, voting is not truly compulsory.

Happy to have uniform 4 year fixed terms.

But all voting should be optional preferential voting, not mandatory pref.

That's it as far as electoral reform goes.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
skippy
Ex Member


Re: Australian fringe politics
Reply #4 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 8:32am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 19th, 2008 at 9:49pm:
Someone here has already argued in favour of abolishing states, but I can't seem to find the thread.


Well I' m in favour of abolishing the states I think many would agree the question is how?
The federal commonwealth only exists because the states form that commonwealth how do we change that?
What do we do instead of states? I think large councils a bit like Britain is the answer for local issues , things like police, hospitals, education, should be looked after by the feds.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 51227
At my desk.
Re: Australian fringe politics
Reply #5 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 9:04am
 
Making voting compulsory, but rankings optional, is irrational. It is effectively saying you are compelled to vote in the less important elections, but the most important elections are optional. Furthermore those promoting it do so based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how preferential voting works. They insist that compulsory preferential voting gives an unfair advantage to the major parties, when in fact the opposite is true. Those promoting optional preferential voting think they are helping the minor parties, but they are in fact helping the major parties. That is why the major parties passed laws allowing it in certain states with very little public debate or consultation. They slipped it through before those promoting it came to their senses and realised it did the opposite of what they wanted.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/electoral-reform/optional-preferential-voting.html

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1187572706
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
tallowood
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6048
Re: Australian fringe politics
Reply #6 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 9:27am
 
Grendel wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 7:47am:
Well i'm interested.

For starters...  if a state has 4 year fixed terms then we need to have the ability to dismiss the government if as in NSW they have stuffed the joint up completely.  Therefore we need a constitutional reform with an option like they have in the states which is called RECALL.

I'm happy to retain mandatory voting even though tribal voting distorts the outcome and uninformed people also distort the vote, and in a true democracy you should have the right to with-hold your vote.  mind you even now, voting is not truly compulsory.

Happy to have uniform 4 year fixed terms.

But all voting should be optional preferential voting, not mandatory pref.

That's it as far as electoral reform goes.



I have already stated that I am against states as unjustified financial burden but having an elected governor as compromise may be a good idea. Besides it is possible to create something like "federation council" where governors may periodically meet linking states and federal levels. Such council may even have right of veto or similar, which would make an additional check on federal politicians' ambitions. 


As far as compulsory voting goes I'm not against it but it would be good to have an option in the ballot paper that indicates Vote AGAINST every candidate so people who are disgusted with the system are able to express themselves too.
Back to top
 

ישראל חיה ערבים לערבים
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 51227
At my desk.
Re: Australian fringe politics
Reply #7 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 11:31am
 
Quote:
it would be good to have an option in the ballot paper that indicates Vote AGAINST every candidate so people who are disgusted with the system are able to express themselves too


It's called a donkey vote. You can't expect politicians to go after donkey voters, thus it would be just as wasted if there was a special box for it. If you can't be bothered picking the 'lesser of two evils', then you can't expect a candidate to waste their time on you. All it would achieve is create the false impression among voters that ticking that box actually meant something and that someone is going to care what they think, even if they waste their only chance to communicate what they think.
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
tallowood
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6048
Re: Australian fringe politics
Reply #8 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 12:27pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 11:31am:
Quote:
it would be good to have an option in the ballot paper that indicates Vote AGAINST every candidate so people who are disgusted with the system are able to express themselves too


It's called a donkey vote. You can't expect politicians to go after donkey voters, thus it would be just as wasted if there was a special box for it. If you can't be bothered picking the 'lesser of two evils', then you can't expect a candidate to waste their time on you. All it would achieve is create the false impression among voters that ticking that box actually meant something and that someone is going to care what they think, even if they waste their only chance to communicate what they think.



Donkey vote is not as explicit manifestation of voter will as AGAINST ALL vote. beside the term itself is derogatory and let those who constantly cheat and lie of the hook.
AGAINST ALL vote when count of it is big enough would show that current crop of candidates put the democratic system in disrepute and something have to be done about it before too late.

Back to top
 

ישראל חיה ערבים לערבים
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 51227
At my desk.
Re: Australian fringe politics
Reply #9 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 12:53pm
 
Of course it is not explicit. But if you have a box for 'none of the above' the donkey voters will just tick it, assuming they know how to read. It will still not mean anything. No-one will care what you think, because you cannot be relied on to vote properly. If you cannot bring yourself to differentiate yourself from someone who has put zero thought into voting, then you do not deserve to be represented. There is no point adding a meaningless option to the ballot paper. It will merely mislead people into thinking it has some meaning.

There is no risk of a significant number of voters rejecting the entire crop of candidates. Our system allows a large number of candidates, right down to those who will only muster a few hundred votes. If someone cannot get that many votes, there is no point having them on the ballot paper. A ballot paper is for electing a leader who appeals to the majority, not for allowing everyone to indicate their exact views on each issue. It is not a weakness in the system if no candidate represents you perfectly, because they are not supposed to. They are supposed to represent the entire community. If a voter cannot bring themselves to choose a candidate that manages to appeal to more than a dozen people, then they have no concept of compromise. It is their own fault that they are not represented. The only way to satisfy a person who insists on having everything their way, or rejecting the entire system, is to have a dictatorship with them in charge. If you want to have an impact, you have to bring yourself to reach a common position with a large number of other people. Anything else is merely a convoluted way of saying 'my way or the highway'.
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
tallowood
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6048
Re: Australian fringe politics
Reply #10 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 1:03pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 12:53pm:
Of course it is not explicit. But if you have a box for 'none of the above' the donkey voters will just tick it, assuming they know how to read. It will still not mean anything. No-one will care what you think, because you cannot be relied on to vote properly. If you cannot bring yourself to differentiate yourself from someone who has put zero thought into voting, then you do not deserve to be represented. There is no point adding a meaningless option to the ballot paper. It will merely mislead people into thinking it has some meaning.

There is no risk of a significant number of voters rejecting the entire crop of candidates. Our system allows a large number of candidates, right down to those who will only muster a few hundred votes. If someone cannot get that many votes, there is no point having them on the ballot paper. A ballot paper is for electing a leader who appeals to the majority, not for allowing everyone to indicate their exact views on each issue. It is not a weakness in the system if no candidate represents you perfectly, because they are not supposed to. They are supposed to represent the entire community. If a voter cannot bring themselves to choose a candidate that manages to appeal to more than a dozen people, then they have no concept of compromise. It is their own fault that they are not represented. The only way to satisfy a person who insists on having everything their way, or rejecting the entire system, is to have a dictatorship with them in charge. If you want to have an impact, you have to bring yourself to reach a common position with a large number of other people. Anything else is merely a convoluted way of saying 'my way or the highway'.



If there is no risk of a significant number of voters rejecting the entire crop of candidates why then pollies are so afraid of including AGAINST ALL in ballot papers? They really worry about own image perception in wrong way because if the is one good person amongst them they all would have nothing to be afraid off. But instead politicians prefer to debase voters who do not like politicians.

It is better to have "donkey" voters then cheating, thieving paedophile politicians.
Back to top
 

ישראל חיה ערבים לערבים
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 51227
At my desk.
Re: Australian fringe politics
Reply #11 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 1:27pm
 
There is no fear. It is just a waste of time. Ballot papers are not a toy. If you want to waste your vote, scribble all over it with a crayon. Don't expect them to add an official 'I want to waste this vote' option for you.

Quote:
But instead politicians prefer to debase voters who do not like politicians.


Voters who refuse to vote for candidates debase themselves.  Donkey voting, either via an official box or informally, would in fact support the major parties, because it would show that those who oppose the major parties cannot get their act together in any way, and certainly shouldn't be given any influence over governance. It is not a protest vote. It is a wasted vote. Having a box to tick would still mean it is wasted.

If you can't make the effort to choose a preferred option from the available candidates, it's probably a good idea that your vote is wasted.
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
tallowood
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6048
Re: Australian fringe politics
Reply #12 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 1:41pm
 

That's the reason why AGAINST ALL vote should be introduced so those who do not want to choose between two evil and don't want to waste vote ma express their will as clear as anybody else.
Back to top
 

ישראל חיה ערבים לערבים
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 51227
At my desk.
Re: Australian fringe politics
Reply #13 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 1:59pm
 
Quote:
and don't want to waste vote


But they would still be wasting their vote. It would just be an illusion of expressing their will - an illusion that may increase the number of wasted votes.
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
tallowood
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6048
Re: Australian fringe politics
Reply #14 - Nov 20th, 2008 at 3:02pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 1:59pm:
Quote:
and don't want to waste vote


But they would still be wasting their vote. It would just be an illusion of expressing their will - an illusion that may increase the number of wasted votes.



It will not be illusion, not with our sensation hungry media when the reality of political situation will get out into open and become unambiguously clear.

Of course this sort of ballot would be useful in conjunction with current compulsory voting model.

Another model may be non compulsory voting model and and validity of an election recognised only if voter turn out reaches certain percentage of total eligible voters number.

These above schemes would be more realistic at "keeping politicians honest" then propaganda promises by other politicians.



Back to top
 

ישראל חיה ערבים לערבים
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4
Send Topic Print