Australian Politics Forum - Israeli treatment of Palestinians

Gaybriel

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Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Nov 18^th, 2008 at 4:47pm

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Yadda

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #1 - Nov 18^th, 2008 at 5:53pm

Quote:

Israeli treatment of Palestinians

'Palestinians' are mostly Jordanians, who came to enjoy the benefits of the development of the land, by Jewish settlers early in the 1900's.

If you read Mark Twains account of the holy land, in his travels there in the late 1800's the land was empty almost of ppl.

The pop of Jerusalem was a mere 14,000.

Google,
Mark Twain jerusalem population
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=Mark+Twain+jerusalem+population&btnG=Goo...iSince 1948, Arabs have lost a number of major conflicts with Israel.

Why can't the Arab's live in peace with their non-muslim neighbour?

Isn't it true that this perpetual conflict with Israel, is not about Jews and Arabs.

But about the ISLAMIC supremacy doctrine over non-muslims, that once ISLAM has authority over a land area, if that land is ever subsequently lost in battle, all muslims [the Ummah] must unite in the fight to regain that piece of land - for ISLAM, Allah?

And, the first World War [WWI], changed the maps of those lands once controlled by the Turkish state [the Ottoman Empire].

So, putting aside this ISLAMIC malice, against unbelievers, don't Jews have just as much right [historically] to 'Palestine'?

The surrounding Arab nations have lost 4 major conflicts over the land of Israel.

Isn't it time for Israel's Arab neighbours to concede, and live in peace with their new neighbours?

+++++++++

Why don't the Palestinians have a state?

First of all, the Palestinian Arabs do have a state. Its called Jordan.
.....Palestinian Arabs have been offered the opportunity to create a state many times,...

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_faq_palestine_whynostate.php

Also,
In 1948 the surrounding Arabs states, encouraged 'Palestinians' to flee from the new state of Israel [leaving their homes / properties].

Rather than live peaceably in 1948, the surrounding Arab states all attacked Israel.

The Arab nations lost that war.

If today, the 'Palestinian people' can't make peace with Israel....
They should sue the Arab league, for damages, compensation, and a new homeland somewhere in the vast extent of Arab lands.

It was the Arab league, that fostered the 1948 war against Israel.

Jews must not be permitted to live in their ancestral homeland.

What is the root of the word 'Judea'?

Anything to do with 'Jews' perhaps?

Judea is the ancient Jewish homeland.

The Jewish people have as much claim on 'Palestine' as anyone.
.....in my opinion.

THIS IS WHAT ISLAM BRINGS, WHERE EVER IT GOES.
....EVIL

Here is differing view of events, from a different source.

He is an arab....

"......The idea that the Jews forced the Palestinians out is from a well known lie and perversion of history past down by the Arabs who were defeated in 1948 and 1967. It is called "The political influence of tradition", when all the people who fled away and ran across the Jordan River. They left out of fear imposed by the Arab media themselves, who told the Palestinians to leave because the Jews would slaughter them. It was pure Arab propaganda against Israel, which made the Palestinians leave out of fear. One should wonder why EMEU would never blame anything on the Arabs themselves?

The Arab leaders promised the Palestinians that they would soon be able to return following Israelâ€™s destruction. In some cases the Jews, including Israel's first Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, urged the Arabs to remain, promising that they would not be harmed, (Irving Howe and Carl Gershman, Israel, the Arabs and the Middle East, New York: Bantam, 1972, p. 168) Those who remained became full and equal citizens of Israel, while those who chose to leave went to neighboring Arab states. Instead of welcoming their Arab brothers, and integrating them into the mainstream of their societies, the Arab states kept them in squalid refugee camps. They used these Palestinian refugees as political pawns in their fight against Israel. (See, for instance, The Economist, Oct. 2, 1948, for a description of Jewish efforts in Haifa to persuade the Arabs to stay)

Israel is also blamed for creating the Refugee problem in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. The problem however, was created by the Arabs who insisted on keeping the camps; using the Palestinians for political exploitation. In 1982, 65,425 Palestinian refugees were put in camps in Syria, 123,442 in Lebanon, and 192,392 in Jordan. This was reported by UNRWA, while the Arabic propaganda lied and inflated the number to 4,000,000. ALL of them had fled of their own will and without any force......"
http://www.answering-islam.org/Walid/13emeu.htm

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41378 Gender:	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #2 - Nov 18^th, 2008 at 6:20pm Onya yadda. Any answer, gaybriel lastworder ?
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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #3 - Nov 18^th, 2008 at 7:33pm I will answer things in my own time thankyou sprint. once again- you cannot bully other members into answering within your own time frame.
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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #4 - Nov 18^th, 2008 at 8:12pm Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #5 - Nov 18^th, 2008 at 9:24pm Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 20^th, 2008 at 12:20am: Onya yadda. Onya is correct, yadda. I am with Israel. (Can I say that?)
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Lestat

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #6 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:39am

Soren wrote on Nov 18^th, 2008 at 9:24pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 20^th, 2008 at 12:20am:

Onya yadda.

Onya is correct, yadda.

I am with Israel. (Can I say that?)

No surprises there. I always suspected that you were a terrorist sympathiser and a supporter of the murderers of children, and now you have confirmed my suspiciousn.

Well done......

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jordan484

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #7 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:43am

Israel and Palestine are both guilty of the deliberate murdering of innocent people, children included. Support for either side can be said to support terrorism or to be a terrorist sympathiser. I find both the Israeli's and the Palestinian's to be abhorrent, neither deserve support, and neither will get it from me.

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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins

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Yadda

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #8 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:24am

jordan484 wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:43am:

Israel and Palestine are both guilty of the deliberate murdering of innocent people, children included. Support for either side can be said to support terrorism or to be a terrorist sympathiser. I find both the Israeli's and the Palestinian's to be abhorrent, neither deserve support, and neither will get it from me.

jordan484,

Please be aware that ISLAMISTS make up a lot of 'faerie stories'.

ISLAMISTS are masters at the re-construction of the history of bloody and ruthless ISLAMIC conquest and oppression.

A history where TRUTH is been 're-engineered', to portray the error, and guilt of non-muslim precursors,
.....and the mildness, and benevolence, of the muslim overlords who brought 'peace'.

IT IS JUST MORE OF THE SAME LIES....

i.e.
ISLAM, good.
Everyone else, bad.

This ISLAMIC propaganda is pure made up fantasy.

And, the ISLAMISTS are still constructing these fantasies today......

"The term 'Pallywood' refers to the staging of scenes by Palestinian journalists in order to present the Palestinians as hapless victims of Israeli aggression."

Google,
pallywood propaganda israel palestinian conflict
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=pallywood+propaganda+israel+palestinian+conflict&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

ISLAM / muslims confronted with an inconvenient, and ugly TRUTH about ISLAM, have always manufactured a more pleasant fable, that paints ISLAM in a favourable light.

In situations where persons dares to recount the real TRUTH, they are often murdered.

The consequence of such lies, and repression is that over time, the TRUTH is lost.
.....and the manufactured muslim fable, becomes the 'truth', because it is perpetuated in ISLAM's own accounts and records of events.

Muslims have been doing this for centuries, always re-manufacturing local histories, to show ISLAM in the most favourable light.

jordan484,

It seems very clear to me, that there is 'a line in the sand' today, in this world.

It is called ISRAEL.

In my experience, invariably those who hate TRUTH, also hate ISRAEL.

I hope that you will explore this issue a little closer.

Hatred and lies often grow together.

Much of mankind today have come to love lies, and to hate TRUTH.

For me, i have seen it time and time again, those ppl who hate TRUTH, also hate Jews, and Israel.

Today, Israel truly is a line in the sand.

Nothing can stop God's plan.
....indeed, man's own nature is driving it!

++++++

Jeremiah 23:3
And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Jeremiah 23:6
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

God's name [Jesus Christ] is,
.....THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

It is he who redeems us.

The 'promised land' on earth, is the land of Israel.

The 'promised land' in the spirit, is the presence of our God.

This is just one of the allegories, HIDDEN-IN-PLAIN-SIGHT, in the Bible,
....God's WORD.

Do you have eyes to see?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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abu_rashid

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #9 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:49am

Yadda, do you even know what you're saying? Or are you just closing your eyes, throwing anything out there, and then hoping nobody notices?

Quote:

'Palestinians' are mostly Jordanians, who came to enjoy the benefits of the development of the land, by Jewish settlers early in the 1900's.

This is just nonsense, in fact most modern day Jordanians are Palestinians, if anything it's the opposite way round. There was neither Palestine nor Jordan prior to the British mandate and later UN partition. The lands were part of the one same nation, so to claim the people are from one entity or the other is just ridiculous, as neither national entity existed. There was no record of immigration between Palestine and Jordan prior to the mandate period, just like today there's probably no record of immigration between Melbourne and Ballarat, because it's not considered immigration when you move to a new city within the same country....

However, once the mandate was brought into effect, immigration records show that 367,845 Jews and 33,304 non-Jews immigrated legally between 1920 and 1945 and It was estimated that another 50–60,000 Jews and a small number of non-Jews immigrated illegally during this period.

Quote:

Between 1800 and 1914, the Muslim population had a yearly average increase in the order of magnitude of roughly 6-7 per thousand. This can be compared to the very crude estimate of about 4 per thousand for the "less developed countries" of the world (in Asia, Africa, and Latin America) between 1800 and 1910. It is possible that part of the growth of the Muslim population was due to immigration.. (Professor Roberto Bachi, first President of the Israeli Statistical Association)

There's absolutely no evidence at all to suggest there was any noticeable increase in Arab movement to Palestine prior to the mandate. You're speaking nothing but nonsense.

Quote:

If you read Mark Twains account of the holy land, in his travels there in the late 1800's the land was empty almost of ppl.

Firstly, the accounts of a foreign traveller are hardly credible evidence for population statistics, especially when government census' completely contradict them.

This is what Mark Twain said:
"..... A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds... a silent mournful expanse.... a desolation.... we never saw a human being on the whole route.... hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country." (The Innocents Abroad, p. 361-362)

Sounds like a very emperical and objective survey of the land doesn't it? Or peerhaps he just happened to travel along a back road?

You must take into account that only 17% of Palestinian land is arable, so it's no surprise he saw a lot of empty desert, not to mention the fact his visit was in the middle of the summer, when most Arabs would be remaining indoors for a lot of the time. Also his visit was quite brief, and was mostly to visit Biblical ruins...

Also his description of Greece was not much different:

"From Athens all through the islands of the Grecian Archipelago, we saw little but forbidden sea-walls and barren hills, sometimes surmounted by three or four graceful columns of some ancient temples, lonely and deserted---a fitting symbol of desolation that has come upon all Greece in these latter ages. We saw no plowed fields, very few villages, no trees or grass or vegetation of any kind, scarcely, and hardly ever an isolated house. Greece is a bleak, unsmiling desert, without agriculture, manufactures, or commerce, apparently." (The Innocents Abroad, p. 203)

Are you suggesting Greece was 'terra nullius' also? And that any ethnicity could just mass immigrate and take over the country? Because it was a 'land without a people for a people without a land'???

Either way, traveller's tales are certainly not reliable census data. You've just made a fool of yourself with this one.

Quote:

The pop of Jerusalem was a mere 14,000.

Which considering the world population at the time, wasn't too strange. It was about 0.001% of the world's population, whilst today it is about 0.01%, not bad considering today it is the (unofficial) capital city of a country.

The rest of your post is even less deserving of a reply, the image of the "Arab world" is funny though... Didn't you notice half the countries aren't actually Arab?

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tallowood

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #10 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 11:13am

Lestat wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:39am:

Soren wrote on Nov 18^th, 2008 at 9:24pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 20^th, 2008 at 12:20am:

Onya yadda.

Onya is correct, yadda.
I am with Israel. (Can I say that?)

No surprises there. I always suspected that you were a terrorist sympathiser and a supporter of the murderers of children, and now you have confirmed my suspiciousn.
Well done......

Since terrorist and deliberate murderers of children are hamas members and soren is obviously doesn't support hamas it is incorrect to call him a terrorist sympathiser and a supporter of the murderers of children.

Terrorist sympathisers and supporters of the murderers of children are those who support hamas.

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Lestat

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #11 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 11:30am

tallowood wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 11:13am:

Lestat wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:39am:

Soren wrote on Nov 18^th, 2008 at 9:24pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 20^th, 2008 at 12:20am:

Onya yadda.

Onya is correct, yadda.
I am with Israel. (Can I say that?)

No surprises there. I always suspected that you were a terrorist sympathiser and a supporter of the murderers of children, and now you have confirmed my suspiciousn.
Well done......

Since terrorist and deliberate murderers of children are hamas members and soren is obviously doesn't support hamas it is incorrect to call him a terrorist sympathiser and a supporter of the murderers of children.

Terrorist sympathisers and supporters of the murderers of children are those who support hamas.

I think you'll find it is in fact the IDF who has deliberately targetted children, unless of course you believe that sniper's shooting children in the head whilst sitting in a class room is another one of those many 'accidents'.

Or lets not forget 13 y.o Imam Al-Hams who's body was riddled with no less then 14 bullets, when wearing her school uniform in clear daylight.

http://www.rense.com/general58/NONE.HTM

And unfortunately this is not an isolated incident.

I am not a supporter of Hamas, and never stated such, yet Soren has openly admitted support for these Israeli murderers.

So who's the terrorist sympathiser and murderer of children Tal?

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Soren

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #12 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 2:59pm

Lestat wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 11:30am:

[quote author=tallowood link=1229690857/0#10 date=1227057214]

I think you'll find it is in fact the IDF who has deliberately targetted children, unless of course you believe that sniper's shooting children in the head whilst sitting in a class room is another one of those many 'accidents'.

Or lets not forget 13 y.o Imam Al-Hams who's body was riddled with no less then 14 bullets, when wearing her school uniform in clear daylight.

http://www.rense.com/general58/NONE.HTM

And unfortunately this is not an isolated incident.

I am not a supporter of Hamas, and never stated such, yet Soren has openly admitted support for these Israeli murderers.

So who's the terrorist sympathiser and murderer of children Tal?

Why would anyone suspect palestinian children to be bombers, suicide or otherwise, but never israeli children? The fondness of the Muslim 'fighters' to hide in civilian areas, even mosques, is well known. Their use of children, especially intellectually handicapped ones, is also well documented. And there is absolutely no functioning justice system that would ever call them to account. To treat Israel as if it was the equivalent of the Palestinian tribes, gangster groups and terrorist clients is arrant nonsense.

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« Last Edit: Nov 19^th, 2008 at 4:29pm by Soren »

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Yadda

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #13 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 3:38pm

Lestat wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 11:30am:

I think you'll find it is in fact the IDF who has deliberately targetted children, unless of course you believe that sniper's shooting children in the head whilst sitting in a class room is another one of those many 'accidents'.

Or lets not forget 13 y.o Imam Al-Hams who's body was riddled with no less then 14 bullets, when wearing her school uniform in clear daylight.

http://www.rense.com/general58/NONE.HTM

And unfortunately this is not an isolated incident.

I am not a supporter of Hamas, and never stated such, yet Soren has openly admitted support for these Israeli murderers.

So who's the terrorist sympathiser and murderer of children Tal?

Lestat,

Here is the 'rightful' morality of the Jihad, explained, by and ISLAMIST....

There Can Be No End to Jihad'
Islamist Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad, in an exclusive interview, discusses the rationale for 9/11, the Christians he most respects, and the Jesus he defends.
posted 11/05/2007
....Any weapons are legitimate in jihad. Even animals may be used as "suicide bombers"! It is not restricted by target—even Muslims or children, if used by the enemy as human shields, can be killed.
....Killing women and children never was and never will be part of the jihad in Islam, whether that be the women or children of the Muslims or non-Muslims. So if Chechen mujahedeen killed women and children in Beslan, I would condemn it. The children of non-Muslims, such as those at Beslan, who die in such circumstances go to Paradise.
....Women and children [i.e. boys under 15] or Muslims are not legitimate targets—nor are any noncombatants [clergy, disabled, insane, elderly, etc.]. Not even Israeli children or women, unless they serve in the military, which most do, or live in properties taken from dispossessed Palestinians (Muslim or Christian), which virtually all do.
However, if children are killed, the fault lies with the adult occupiers who brought them into a battlefield situation.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/februaryweb-only/22.0.html

I ask, using the logic which ISLAMISTS wish to die by.....

If it is ISLAMISTS who are bringing muslim children "....into a battlefield situation.", are not the ISLAMISTS then responsible [if children are mistakenly killed]??

When it is ISLAMISTS who are making children co-combatants, and training children as co-combatants???

Whereas, muslim logic would dictate....

"However, if children are killed, the fault lies with..." somebody else of course, with non-muslims.
....never, never, ever, with ISLAM.

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« Last Edit: Nov 19^th, 2008 at 3:51pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #14 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 5:31pm it's amazing that not one person here has condemned the behaviour of the people in the videos I doubt half of you even watched them
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Soren

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #15 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 6:14pm

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 5:31pm:

it's amazing that not one person here has condemned the behaviour of the people in the videos

I doubt half of you even watched them

This is a case of the boy who cried wolf far too often. There has been far too many 'Palliwood' , bogus accounts of palestinian victimhood.

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Gaybriel

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #16 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 6:31pm

and yet there's much that is genuine. you could always qualify statements by 'if this is true'.

but imagining that israelis treat palestinians fantastically (en masse) is complete fantasy- all you need do is talk to someone from palestine, or israel for that matter.

there are people in israel who also have problems with how palestinians are treated and work to raise awareness of it.

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Soren

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #17 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 7:17pm

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 6:31pm:

and yet there's much that is genuine. you could always qualify statements by 'if this is true'.

but imagining that israelis treat palestinians fantastically (en masse) is complete fantasy- all you need do is talk to someone from palestine, or israel for that matter.

there are people in israel who also have problems with how palestinians are treated and work to raise awareness of it.

No doubt.

Israel was also attacked on the day of its birth and the attackss have not abated.

Yet its muslim citizens enjoy greater freedom and opportunities than their coreligionists in any of the muslim majority countries. Palestinians ought to recognise that and ask why they must speend generation after generation as refugees in Muslim countries.

it is easier for a palestinian to become the loyal subject of Elizabeeth II in Australia or Canada than to be that of King Muck or whatever of Jordan or Araby. They were even expelled from Jordan in the 70s for causing to much trouble. And there are no jews in jordan to oppress them.

Only recently, Palestinian 'fighters' sought refugee in Israel from ... er... other Palestinian fighters. They got it, and medical treatment of their gunshot wounds suffered while fighting their muslim Paleestinian brothers in Gaza.

The palestinians act like barbarians and blame israel because israel resists their incessant efforts to - destroy Israel. How inconsiderate of the jews. How racists and islamophobic.

Fatalism comes into it. It is only the Mulism persuasion that can't see its way past blood. Try not to shoot rockets into israel. See what happens.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #18 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 7:46pm

Yeh it's the Palestinians fault. They shouldn't have gone to Lithuania, Poland, Russia and USA and kick all those poor Jews out of their homes and herd them into refugee camps, so they could take them for their greedy selves....

Soren, Answer me how you'd respond to foreigners immigrating in massive waves, saturating the population of Australia within a few shorts decades, making statements they want to kick the current Australians out into surrounding nations (like NZ or PNG)??? Would you welcome them? Or would you fight and resist them until you die? I already know your answer, as you've expressed it regarding Muslims many times already.

So don't ask anything less of the Palestinians. They are merely resisting a foreign entity that quite clearly from the time they started immigrating made it quite clear they were coming to dispossess the Palestinians, who were a 98% majority of the land, when the Zionist 'project' began.

Remember Muslims are about 2% of Australia today... How would you respond if we decided to do that?

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Израиль Навсегда Posts: 7303 Gender:	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #19 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 7:52pm Soren has the best argument in this thread, IMHO.
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Израиль Навсегда Posts: 7303 Gender:	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #20 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 7:56pm abu_rashid wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 7:46pm: Yeh it's the Palestinians fault. .... I would not say that. The Palestinians in WB doing much better then the Palestinians who affected by hamas madness.
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Soren

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #21 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:22pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 7:46pm:

Yeh it's the Palestinians fault. They shouldn't have gone to Lithuania, Poland, Russia and USA and kick all those poor Jews out of their homes and herd them into refugee camps, so they could take them for their greedy selves....

Soren, Answer me how you'd respond to foreigners immigrating in massive waves, saturating the population of Australia within a few shorts decades, making statements they want to kick the current Australians out into surrounding nations (like NZ or PNG)??? Would you welcome them? Or would you fight and resist them until you die? I already know your answer, as you've expressed it regarding Muslims many times already.

So don't ask anything less of the Palestinians. They are merely resisting a foreign entity that quite clearly from the time they started immigrating made it quite clear they were coming to dispossess the Palestinians, who were a 98% majority of the land, when the Zionist 'project' began.

Remember Muslims are about 2% of Australia today... How would you respond if we decided to do that?

By your analogy you are the jew in this country and the Aborigines are the 'palestinians'. Why don't you leave? Why don't you live by your principles?

Except, of course, the jews are the aborigines of Judea, of Israel, not the palestinians. The jews won it at least a millenium before Mohammed appeared. So the muslim claim to Israel is baseless nonsense.
Except according to the reckoning of 'once muslim land, always muslim land'. And hence the harking back to Andalusia, despite the 500 years since the muslims had to vacate. But theree neever is a possibility of digesting how Allah could side with the infidels there or anywhere else. That can't be Allah's will. Not that conssistent or principled about Allah ccontrolling, willing everything that happens.

The Arabs are the invaders everywhere outside Araby. And thee muslims won everything now muslim in the middle east by war.
Even Araby.
If it's good enough for muslims to claim conquered lands, well, the spanish and the jews won their countries back by war.

Back. Won back - very important.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #22 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:25pm

Soren has an argument?

All he seems to have is a blind support for Israel, because it's mentioned in the Bible.. that's about it.

Regardless of what Israel does, regardless of what happens to the Palestinians, Israel is right as it's "God's nation".

The sad thing is, Christians have suffered the most out of this conflict. Prior to the Jewish saturation, Christians were a much larger % of the population, especially in Jerusalem. Since the arrival of the Jews, they've dwindled substantially, also we rarely see the imagery of Orthodox Jews burning NT's in the street (which happens) nor do we even dare to discuss the fact that proselytising to Christianity is forbidden in Israel... Christians are generally ignorant and just downright naive about the whole situation.

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Soren

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #23 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:37pm

Lestat wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:39am:

Soren wrote on Nov 18^th, 2008 at 9:24pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 20^th, 2008 at 12:20am:

Onya yadda.

Onya is correct, yadda.

I am with Israel. (Can I say that?)

No surprises there. I always suspected that you were a terrorist sympathiser and a supporter of the murderers of children, and now you have confirmed my suspiciousn.

Well done......

This is as good an example as any of how muslim ideologues will turn the precise word they are guilty of onto those who oppose them.

Terrorist sympathisers - anyone who is critical of Islamist terrorist.
Islamophobe - anyone who is critical of Muslim attrocities, hatred, mindless killing.
Oppressive - aanyone who iss critical of islamist treatmeent of women.
Undemocratic - anyone who is critical of slamist assault on freedom of concience, speech and press
Racists - annyone who questions the muslim treatment of infidels
Terrorist country - the country thatresists daily terror attacks as a way of life for 60 years.i

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abu_rashid

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #24 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:38pm

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By your analogy you are the jew in this country and the Aborigines are the 'palestinians'. Why don't you leave? Why don't you live by your principles?

I agree, and I support fully Aboriginal land rights. I've spent time amongst aboriginal communities and sympathise completely with their situation.

My analogy was speaking about the modern day situation, here, now, today. How would you as an Australian today feel if the population of Australia began turning Muslim extremely fast, at say 1-2 million a year, so that after 2 or 3 decades they'd become the majority?? and began building settlements, and locking Australians into refugee camps?

Quote:

Except, of course, the jews are the aborigines of Judea, of Israel, not the palestinians.

Not really. Canaanites and Phillistines pre-dated them, and some modern day Palestinians and Lebanese are descendants of Canaanites. Also some modern day Palestinians are descendants of Jews.

Also you must consider that the Masjid al-Aqsa has stood in Jerusalem for longer than both Jewish temples combined...

But, for you, it's written in the Bible, so it's gotta be... plain and simple, that's about the only argument you've got. You have no other choice but to support it, right or wrong. And you constantly ramble on about Muslims blindly following, what a joke.

Quote:

The jews won it at least a millenium before Mohammed appeared. So the muslim claim to Israel is baseless nonsense.

Yeh according to their own accounts, they slew men, women, children, old people etc. I'm sure you're proud of such an acquisition, it was after all commanded by your God wasn't it?

Quote:

And hence the harking back to Andalusia, despite the 500 years since the muslims had to vacate.

Good point,If they can reclaim it after 2000 years, then we'd have 4 times as much reason to claim Andalus back after being out for only 500 years... by your own logic.

Quote:

But theree neever is a possibility of digesting how Allah could side with the infidels there or anywhere else. That can't be Allah's will.

As I said, he's the overall controller, it is indeed his will. Not his command though. Which is why it must be resisted. But since you can't seem to fathom the difference between the two, it's no wonder you're confusing it, and thinking that Jews therefore have a right to it.

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Soren

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #25 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:41pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:25pm:

Soren has an argument?

All he seems to have is a blind support for Israel, because it's mentioned in the Bible.. that's about it.

Regardless of what Israel does, regardless of what happens to the Palestinians, Israel is right as it's "God's nation".

That' right, time to invent things and attribute them to whoever diagress. No-one will notice that you are making them up.

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Soren

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #26 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:47pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:25pm:

The sad thing is, Christians have suffered the most out of this conflict. Prior to the Jewish saturation, Christians were a much larger % of the population, especially in Jerusalem. Since the arrival of the Jews, they've dwindled substantially, also we rarely see the imagery of Orthodox Jews burning NT's in the street (which happens) nor do we even dare to discuss the fact that proselytising to Christianity is forbidden in Israel... Christians are generally ignorant and just downright naive about the whole situation.

Now you are sorry for the Christains?

Christians dwindled in every Muslim country - because they are persecuted. In every muslim country.

They are not persecuted in Israel. It's just not very safe there, for some reason...

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Gaybriel

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #27 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 9:58pm

Soren wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 7:17pm:

No doubt.

Israel was also attacked on the day of its birth and the attackss have not abated.

to be sure, but one must also look at what the birth of Israel meant - which was the dispossession of the indigenous inhabitants (officially called the nakba http://www.alnakba.org/ . I'm not saying this justifies all Palestinian acts- but it's important to look at what happened within context and with perspective.

No indigenous people have ever simply made way for settlers/invaders/conquerors. indigenous australians didn't (those who did believed them not to be settlers, but to be temporary settlers living a nomadic lifestyle much like their own. they did not know they staked claim to the land until later when it became clearer. whereas others who caught on to what was going on would stage various kinds of attacks).

the difference between indigneous australians and indigneous palestinians is that IA did not have the numbers/capability/opporunity and realisation of what was happening, to effectively keep the europeans away

I don't think you can blame the palestinians for fighting back because it is the natural reaction of anyone whose lands are being taken away, whose home is being taken away. does this excuse all action taken in the 60 years since? certainly not. but it does lend towards understanding why people have been fighting for 60 years.

the fact is that those who came into israel/palestine and claimed it as their own had no right to do so, and the original breach of the rights of palestinians is a huge thing.

we need only look at the pain and difficulty that similar situations have caused with other indigenous populations- and these occurred many hundreds of years ago.

one can look at northern ireland. many look at the 'freedom fighters' as heroes who fought against the english rule etc etc- yet when it comes to palestinians they are regarded as terrorists, with no regard for human life and with no legitimate reason to be angry or to feel injustice in the first place. it simply isn't true.

now people look at the palestinians as animals and say that normal people don't act this way- but palestinians aren't living in a normal situation. certainly I do not morally agree with many actions, but I do understand why they have come about. I understand they are a result of pain, as opposed to a result of some inherent barbarism.

there are also other forms of abuse or terrorism apart from blowing up people and buses. such as blocking aid, blocking food, overt violence towards individuals, the oppression of personal freedoms etc etc

there's a very interesting book called 'us and them' by peter manning. he goes to israel and palestine and his observations (as well as factual, referenced materials he has in the book- are quite interesting)

Quote:

Yet its muslim citizens enjoy greater freedom and opportunities than their coreligionists in any of the muslim majority countries. Palestinians ought to recognise that and ask why they must speend generation after generation as refugees in Muslim countries.

the situation in Palestine is quite terrible and does cause incredible suffering I agree. but this is not just down to palestinians. the war itself has a huge effect. you may say that the war is only going on because of the palos- on the one hand this is true- israelis would be quite happy not to fight and to simlpy take over the rest of the land. this suits them because it's what they want.

palestinians of course do not want this- they have something to be fighting for and fighting against.

and then you get kids who grow up in this environment- the education system is shot, you have kids without proper schooling, their world is in disarray and it has a huge effect on their mentality. I remember some study about the pictures drawn by palo kids- and they were so dark and sad, it was just terrible.

this is not to say israelis don't suffer- I'm sure they do. but essentially they do live in relative comfort- in comparison to the suffering of the palestinians.

Quote:

Only recently, Palestinian 'fighters' sought refugee in Israel from ... er... other Palestinian fighters. They got it, and medical treatment of their gunshot wounds suffered while fighting their muslim Paleestinian brothers in Gaza.

yes- it's very complex, no black and white in sight

Quote:

The palestinians act like barbarians and blame israel because israel resists their incessant efforts to - destroy Israel. How inconsiderate of the jews. How racists and islamophobic.

and yet the palestinians are resisting the effort of the israelis to destroy palestine. which they are quite intent on doing. if I'm to look at injustice here- the original injustice is against the palos

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Израиль Навсегда Posts: 7303 Gender:	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #28 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:08pm Gaybriel, please don't put all Palestinians in one heap with hamas TERRORIST MURDERERS unless you support terrorism and deliberate murder of civilians. Israel responds to attacks by mad dogs and mad dogs should be shot.
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Gaybriel

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #29 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:09pm

I mean even the UN has condemned the actions of the Israelis- their illegal settlements, the building of separation walls etc

yet people seem to ignore this. people seem happy to refer to the UN when it condemns certain african countries and practices, yet when it condemns australia for human rights abuses- or condemns Israel for human rights abuses and illegal settlements, all of sudden they are dismissed as an uncredible source.

here are some quotes from Israeli soldiers after the shelling of a Palestinian refugee camp and Jenin in 2002

"They were warned by loudspeaker to get out of the house before I come, but I gave no-one a chance. I didn't wait. I didn't give one blow, and wait for them to come out. I would just ram the house with full power, to bring down as fast as possible...I didn't see, with my own eyes, people dying under the blade of the D9. And I didn't see houses falling down on live people. But if there were any, I wouldn't care at all. I am sure people died inside these houses, but it was difficult to see, there was lots of dust everywhere, and we worked a lot at night. I found joy with every house that came down, because I knew they [the Palestinians] didn't mind dying, but they cared for their homes. If you knocked down a house, you buried 40 or 50 people for generatinos. If I am sorry for anything it is not tearing the whole camp down."

"On June 5, the Jenin bulldozer unit was awarded a medal for distinction in battle by te IDF. When the world media and aid organisations were allowed in to Jenin to see the slaughter, the respected US group Human Rights Watch found a case for Israel to answer on war crimes charges...the US blocked a well-supported UN Security Council proposal to investigate the incident at Jenin." p.193-4

Us and Them

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Gaybriel

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #30 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:11pm

tallowood wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:08pm:

Gaybriel, please don't put all Palestinians in one heap with hamas TERRORIST MURDERERS unless you support terrorism and deliberate murder of civilians.
Israel responds to attacks by mad dogs and mad dogs should be shot.

I have not referred to Hamas. I am talking about Palestinian citizens.

Hamas has done great harm to Palestinians.

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tallowood

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #31 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:20pm

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:11pm:

tallowood wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:08pm:

Gaybriel, please don't put all Palestinians in one heap with hamas TERRORIST MURDERERS unless you support terrorism and deliberate murder of civilians.
Israel responds to attacks by mad dogs and mad dogs should be shot.

I have not referred to Hamas. I am talking about Palestinian citizens.

Hamas has done great harm to Palestinians.

Israelis don't fight Palestinians for being Palestinians but hamas kills Palestinians who refuse hamas control.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #32 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:24pm

Quote:

Christians dwindled in every Muslim country - because they are persecuted. In every muslim country.

Well that's funny, because the history seems to speak a different story. For 1200 years of Islamic rule, they remained quite a steady minority, yet after only 60 years of Israel, they're dwindling and being pushed further and further into tiny little enclaves. But it's the Muslims fault, of course... ok if you say so soren.

Quote:

They are not persecuted in Israel. It's just not very safe there, for some reason...

They are not permitted to preach Christianity, isn't this something Islam usually gets attacked for? Or is it only bad and oppressive if Muslims do it?

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abu_rashid

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #33 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:28pm

Quote:

their illegal settlements, the building of separation walls etc

Just so people can actually visualise what settlements mean...

The Palestinians, even inside the West Bank, exist in a few large refugee camps, which just keep getting smaller and smaller, as more homes are bulldozed for settlements, more swaths of land confiscated for outposts and Jewish-only roads...

And to even travel from camp to camp, the Palestinians often need to wait for hours on end in queues whilst Israeli soldiers decide who can and can't go.

Women have had to give birth at these checkpoints, people have died just standing there waiting.... This is nothing but criminal, on a grand scale. anyone supporting this is indeed a supporter of oppression, cruelty and collective punishment.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #34 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:29pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:24pm:

Quote:

Christians dwindled in every Muslim country - because they are persecuted. In every muslim country.

Well that's funny, because the history seems to speak a different story. For 1200 years of Islamic rule, they remained quite a steady minority, yet after only 60 years of Israel, they're dwindling and being pushed further and further into tiny little enclaves. But it's the Muslims fault, of course... ok if you say so soren.

Quote:

They are not persecuted in Israel. It's just not very safe there, for some reason...

They are not permitted to preach Christianity, isn't this something Islam usually gets attacked for? Or is it only bad and oppressive if Muslims do it?

They are permitted to preach Christianity within own communities but they do get killed by Islamic terrorists now and then that is why they don't feel safe.

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #35 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:41pm Sounds like a CNN-ism to me. I'd say far more get killed by the IDF than by their own fellow Palestinians. But if it makes you feel better to pass the buck, go ahead. Nevermind the actual debate of facts going on around you.
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tallowood

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #36 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:52pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:41pm:

Sounds like a CNN-ism to me.
I'd say far more get killed by the IDF than by their own fellow Palestinians.

But if it makes you feel better to pass the buck, go ahead. Nevermind the actual debate of facts going on around you.

The lies that you call "facts" sounds like Shaitan-ism to me. Of course IDF kills terrorists that is how God willed it but if you are happy with Shaitan whispers rather then with truth go ahead, after all that is why God lets Israel to kill hamas terrorists and not other way around.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #37 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 11:23pm

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Of course IDF kills terrorists

so all the people they kill are terrorists?

When they blow apartment blocks to pieces with their helicopter gunships, everyone inside is a terrorist, right? When they bulldoze homes with senior citizens still inside them... terrorists right? When they snipe little kids in the street, terrorists right? When they take pot shots at random people in the street for fun (something ex-IDF soldiers have admitted doing), they're terrorist right?

mod: personal attack

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« Last Edit: Nov 19^th, 2008 at 11:37pm by Gaybriel »

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #38 - Nov 19^th, 2008 at 11:38pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 11:23pm:

[quote]Of course IDF kills terrorists

so all the people they kill are terrorists?

When they blow apartment blocks to pieces with their helicopter gunships, everyone inside is a terrorist, right? When they bulldoze homes with senior citizens still inside them... terrorists right? When they snipe little kids in the street, terrorists right? When they take pot shots at random people in the street for fun (something ex-IDF soldiers have admitted doing), they're terrorist right?

mod: personal attack

[quote]

No, That what you imply. What I say is that Islamic terrorists use own brothers and sisters as human shield because they are disgusting animals and that is why God gives victory to Israelies.

mod: original flame deleted

That personal attack of his was very bad for image of Islam and though I forgive him will God be as merciful to the sinner who has broken Mohamed's "immutable" rules?

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« Last Edit: Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:04am by tallowood »

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jordan484 Gold Member Offline Genuine Aussie Posts: 1115	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #39 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 7:02am Christians...Jews....Muslims....our land, their land.....we were here first....no WE were here first.....but the Bible says this....but the Koran says that....blah blah mod: swearing blah! Yeah, religion is wonderful.
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Lestat

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #40 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:30am

tallowood wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:52pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:41pm:

Sounds like a CNN-ism to me.
I'd say far more get killed by the IDF than by their own fellow Palestinians.

But if it makes you feel better to pass the buck, go ahead. Nevermind the actual debate of facts going on around you.

The lies that you call "facts" sounds like Shaitan-ism to me. Of course IDF kills terrorists that is how God willed it but if you are happy with Shaitan whispers rather then with truth go ahead, after all that is why God lets Israel to kill hamas terrorists and not other way around.

So you believe that a 13 y.o girl in a school uniform who was shot over 13 times in clear daylight was a terrorist??

You should actually pay attention to the number of children killed by the IDF in this conflict, many of them whilst sitting in their class rooms, but ofcourse, in your eyes their all terrorists.

SOme of the views expressed here are nothing short of disgusting...

mod: personal attack

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« Last Edit: Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:49am by Gaybriel »

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Soren

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #41 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:45am

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:28pm:

Quote:

their illegal settlements, the building of separation walls etc

Just so people can actually visualise what settlements mean...

http://www.mideastweb.org/fmep_israel_settlements_map1.gif

The Palestinians, even inside the West Bank, exist in a few large refugee camps, which just keep getting smaller and smaller, as more homes are bulldozed for settlements, more swaths of land confiscated for outposts and Jewish-only roads...

And to even travel from camp to camp, the Palestinians often need to wait for hours on end in queues whilst Israeli soldiers decide who can and can't go.

Women have had to give birth at these checkpoints, people have died just standing there waiting.... This is nothing but criminal, on a grand scale. anyone supporting this is indeed a supporter of oppression, cruelty and collective punishment.

Where is your map showing where the 20% arab population of Israel lives? The arabs can live in israel, the jews can live on the west bank. Or is it supposed to be judenfrei like Gaza?

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Gaybriel

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #42 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:48am

jordan484 wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 7:02am:

Christians...Jews....Muslims....our land, their land.....we were here first....no WE were here first.....but the Bible says this....but the Koran says that....blah blah

mod: swearing

blah!

Yeah, religion is wonderful. Roll Eyes

it's not about religion although much of the time is it spoken about in this way.

It's not about jews and muslims (not all israelis are jews and not all palestinians are muslims)- it is about land, about sovereignty, about freedom, about human rights, about dispossession etc etc etc

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Soren

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #43 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:50am

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:41pm:

Sounds like a CNN-ism to me.
I'd say far more get killed by the IDF than by their own fellow Palestinians.

But if it makes you feel better to pass the buck, go ahead. Nevermind the actual debate of facts going on around you.

This is Lestatism at its most shining.

The IDF is not targeting Christians. It is not targeting Arabs. It is not targeting even Muslims. Religion does not come into it.
Terrorists and lawbreakers are targeted. Most of them are Muslims, some are other Arabs, a few are jews and Christians.

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Lestat

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #44 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:56am

Soren wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:50am:

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:41pm:

Sounds like a CNN-ism to me.
I'd say far more get killed by the IDF than by their own fellow Palestinians.

But if it makes you feel better to pass the buck, go ahead. Nevermind the actual debate of facts going on around you.

This is Lestatism at its most shining.

The IDF is not targeting Christians. It is not targeting Arabs. It is not targeting even Muslims. Religion does not come into it.
Terrorists and lawbreakers are targeted. Most of them are Muslims, some are other Arabs, a few are jews and Christians.

Yeah, we get it. A 13 y.o girl in school uniform walking home is a terrorist and law breaker in your eyes. In fact, just being Palestinian makes them terrorists...you've already pathetically attempted to justify the murder of a 13 y.o girl in school uniform in clear daylight being shot 14 times, so we all understtand your disgusting views and your support for the murderers of children.

As long as they're muslims children ofcourse.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #45 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 9:10am

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:30am:

tallowood wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:52pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:41pm:

Sounds like a CNN-ism to me.
I'd say far more get killed by the IDF than by their own fellow Palestinians.

But if it makes you feel better to pass the buck, go ahead. Nevermind the actual debate of facts going on around you.

The lies that you call "facts" sounds like Shaitan-ism to me. Of course IDF kills terrorists that is how God willed it but if you are happy with Shaitan whispers rather then with truth go ahead, after all that is why God lets Israel to kill hamas terrorists and not other way around.

So you believe that a 13 y.o girl in a school uniform who was shot over 13 times in clear daylight was a terrorist??

You should actually pay attention to the number of children killed by the IDF in this conflict, many of them whilst sitting in their class rooms, but ofcourse, in your eyes their all terrorists.

SOme of the views expressed here are nothing short of disgusting...

mod: personal attack

Unfortunately some of the Moslem (bad) used children for suicide attack. Such behaviour is disgusting and is against Islamic doctrine according to what was told here by Moslem residents. That is why God supports IDF against hamas and other terrorists.

BTW, personal attacks make Moslem bad Moslem because anger is against Mohamed advice.

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Lestat

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #46 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 9:23am

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 9:10am:

Unfortunately some of the Moslem (bad) used children for suicide attack. Such behaviour is disgusting and is against Islamic doctrine according to what was told here by Moslem residents. That is why God supports IDF against hamas and other terrorists.

BTW, personal attacks make Moslem bad Moslem because anger is against Mohamed advice.

So let me get this straight...

You are blaming the murder of a 13 y.o girl in school uniform in clear daylight, shot 14 times in the chest by IDF soldiers....on muslims, whilst claiming that God is on the side of those who actually pulled the trigger and murdered this girl.

Please clarify...is this what you are saying?

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #47 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 9:35am

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 9:23am:

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 9:10am:

Unfortunately some of the Moslem (bad) used children for suicide attack. Such behaviour is disgusting and is against Islamic doctrine according to what was told here by Moslem residents. That is why God supports IDF against hamas and other terrorists.

BTW, personal attacks make Moslem bad Moslem because anger is against Mohamed advice.

So let me get this straight...

You are blaming the murder of a 13 y.o girl in school uniform in clear daylight, shot 14 times in the chest by IDF soldiers....on muslims, whilst claiming that God is on the side of those who actually pulled the trigger and murdered this girl.

Please clarify...is this what you are saying?

I blame it not on Muslims but on muslim extremists, which is not the same.

Do you agree that using suicide bombers especially children and women is totally disgusting, against God'd will and should be immediately stopped by someone.

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Lestat

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #48 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 9:48am

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 9:35am:

I blame it not on Muslims but on muslim extremists, which is not the same.

Do you agree that using suicide bombers especially children and women is totally disgusting, against God'd will and should be immediately stopped by someone.

So you blame the muslim extremists, but the actual soldier that pulled the trigger (14 times I might add) in your eyes is a hero and as you have already said...'God is on his side'.

Whether I agree or disagree with suicide bombers (for the record I strongly oppose suicide bombers) is really irrelevant. This girl, and the hundreds of other Palestinian children murdered by IDF snipers and bombs, were not killed by suicide bombers, they were murdered by IDF soldiers.

So you believe that suicide bombers are disgusting and against Gods will, but the IDF killing Palestinian children is fine, and God is on their side. Mate...forgive me if I don't take your view to seriously. You have praised those that have murdered children...I suggest you take a good long hard look at your morals and ethics, cause really, if you believe that God is on the side of a soldier that empied 14 bullet shells into a harmless little girl, then their is something seriously wrong.

And you have stated a couple of times now that Hamas uses children as suicide bombers. this is an outright lie...and I challenge you to provide one example where a child was used in a suicide bomber, or even better, one that was in school uniform that may justify the murder of a school child in your sick mind.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #49 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:04am

If one can blame "the west" on all atrocities carried out by muslims, then the same logic can be applied to blaming muslims for atrocities carried out by Israel. Time and time again I have read abu blaming the west on something a muslim or a muslim group has done. The muslim who has pulled the trigger, or used the knife, or blown up the bus has not been blamed, but the "west" has been the target for abu.
Tallowood is using the same logic.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #50 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:06am

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 9:48am:

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 9:35am:

I blame it not on Muslims but on muslim extremists, which is not the same.

Do you agree that using suicide bombers especially children and women is totally disgusting, against God'd will and should be immediately stopped by someone.

So you blame the muslim extremists, but the actual soldier that pulled the trigger (14 times I might add) in your eyes is a hero and as you have already said...'God is on his side'.

Whether I agree or disagree with suicide bombers (for the record I strongly oppose suicide bombers) is really irrelevant. This girl, and the hundreds of other Palestinian children murdered by IDF snipers and bombs, were not killed by suicide bombers, they were murdered by IDF soldiers.

So you believe that suicide bombers are disgusting and against Gods will, but the IDF killing Palestinian children is fine, and God is on their side. Mate...forgive me if I don't take your view to seriously. You have praised those that have murdered children...I suggest you take a good long hard look at your morals and ethics, cause really, if you believe that God is on the side of a soldier that empied 14 bullet shells into a harmless little girl, then their is something seriously wrong.

And you have stated a couple of times now that Hamas uses children as suicide bombers. this is an outright lie...and I challenge you to provide one example where a child was used in a suicide bomber, or even better, one that was in school uniform that may justify the murder of a school child in your sick mind.

"So you blame the muslim extremists, but the actual soldier that pulled the trigger (14 times I might add) in your eyes is a hero..."

I did not say that you did. Your twisting the Truth and continuous personal attacks makes Islam to look bad and according to Koran you will burn in hell for that.

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Lestat

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #51 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:13am

jordan484 wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:04am:

If one can blame "the west" on all atrocities carried out by muslims, then the same logic can be applied to blaming muslims for atrocities carried out by Israel. Time and time again I have read abu blaming the west on something a muslim or a muslim group has done. The muslim who has pulled the trigger, or used the knife, or blown up the bus has not been blamed, but the "west" has been the target for abu.
Tallowood is using the same logic.

No, we blame the west for all the attrocities committed by the west 'ON MUSLIMS'. Their lies the difference. No muslim here has ever justified the murder of children...ever, and I challenge you to show one post where we have.

On the contrary, we have stated a number of times now that any killing of an innocent civilian is completely against the teaching of Islam.

If a muslim deliberately kills and targets a child, then it is only his fault, no one elses, certainly not the wests.

I don't feel joy when a child is murdered, no mater what religon, race, color or creed. On the contrary, I feel anger and sorrow.

Whereas your non-muslim buddies on these forums have actually expressed joy and glee when muslim children have died (Afghan bombing) and now we have yourself defending a poster that has clearly stated that 'God is on their side' of a soldier who shot a 13 y.o girl who was in school uniform..in clear daylight.

Besides....if Abu uses this logic as you say he does (which I don't believe for a moment), then the question must be asked...why are you now defending Tallowood for doing exactly what you attack Abu for what you believe he does.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #52 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:17am

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:06am:

I did not say that you did. Your twisting the Truth and continuous personal attacks makes Islam to look bad and according to Koran you will burn in hell for that.

No, you did. Look a few posts above. You clearly stated that God is on the side of the IDF, and I have given you a number of chances to clarify your position.

In every post you have blamed Hamas for this murder, yet not once did you actually condemn the soldier who actually fired the shots, or the IDF who found his actions to be completely acceptable, despite the complains and objections of soldiers who refused to carry out the order.

On the contrary, the only thing that you have said about the IDF, is that 'God is on their side'.

What truth am I twisting. I have given you the oppurtunity now a number of times to condemn this murder and the child murderer that pulled the trigger, yet each time you have refused to do so, and insist on blaming others.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #53 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:18am

I'm not defending anyone, no one here is my "non-muslim buddy" all I was doing was stating the logic is the same.

I disagree that you only blame the west on atrocities committed against muslims, I feel you blame the west instead of blaming Islam or muslims, either because they were forced into a situation by the west or they are "puppets" of the west or numerous other excuses for muslims behaving badly.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #54 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:24am

jordan484 wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:18am:

I'm not defending anyone, no one here is my "non-muslim buddy" all I was doing was stating the logic is the same.

I disagree that you only blame the west on atrocities committed against muslims, I feel you blame the west instead of blaming Islam or muslims, either because they were forced into a situation by the west or they are "puppets" of the west or numerous other excuses for muslims behaving badly.

Well yeah you did, in this instance you are defending Tallowoods position. Anyway...

The logic is completely different, because as I said earlier we do not justify the murder of children (or innocents) and never have.

When we state that 'so and so' are western puppets, it is because it is a fact. The House of Saud for example are a US puppet, and this is a fact. You use their actions to attack Islam....whereas as a muslijm, I don't beleive they are muslim at all.

Either way...we never actually justify their acts, on the contrary, we condemn them as un-Islamic. We are not defending the perpertrators and their actions, we are objecting to the fact that you guys somehow equate these criminal actions to Islam. It is Islam we are defending, not the actions of some muslims, or those that commit these acts.

Whereas Tallowood is actually defending the actual soldier that shot the bullets, and is blaming others for this girls murder.

Do you see the difference?

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #55 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:25am

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:17am:

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:06am:

I did not say that you did. Your twisting the Truth and continuous personal attacks makes Islam to look bad and according to Koran you will burn in hell for that.

No, you did. Look a few posts above. You clearly stated that God is on the side of the IDF, and I have given you a number of chances to clarify your position.
...

No I did not, where did I say that the soldier is a hero? Does Koran teach you to tell lies? I doubt that.

And stop denying will of God when he manifests it.

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Израиль Навсегда Posts: 7303 Gender:	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #56 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:30am Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:24am: ... Whereas Tallowood is actually defending the actual soldier that shot the bullets, and is blaming others for this girls murder. Does Allah will you to tell lies or mod: personal attack
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Yadda

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #57 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:31am

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 5:31pm:

it's amazing that not one person here has condemned the behaviour of the people in the videos

I doubt half of you even watched them

Gaybriel,

I confess i have not watched these particular videos.

I am on dialup [typically] @ 21 kb/s

My bandwidth [such as it is!] is too precious to waste, in spending hours downloading ISLAMIC propaganda.
....i've seen a lot of it before.

+++++++

I'd rather pursue a different path of inquiry.....

Google,
pallywood propaganda israel palestinian conflict
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=pallywood+propaganda+israel+palestinian+...

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #58 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:31am

Quote:

Well yeah you did, in this instance you are defending Tallowoods position.

No, I'm not.
Quote:

The logic is completely different, because as I said earlier we do not justify the murder of children (or innocents) and never have.

What's your definition of an "innocent" person? Only a muslim?

Quote:

You use their actions to attack Islam.

I'm sure you use the actions of US/UN soldiers to attack the west.

Quote:

Either way...we never actually justify their acts, on the contrary, we condemn them as un-Islamic. We are not defending the perpertrators and their actions, we are objecting to the fact that you guys somehow equate these criminal actions to Islam. It is Islam we are defending, not the actions of some muslims, or those that commit these acts.

All evidence to the contrary up to this point.

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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins

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Lestat

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #59 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:34am

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:25am:

No I did not, where did I say that the soldier is a hero? Does Koran teach you to tell lies? I doubt that.

And stop denying will of God when he manifests it.

First post on this page. Here you go.

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:25am:

Unfortunately some of the Moslem (bad) used children for suicide attack. Such behaviour is disgusting and is against Islamic doctrine according to what was told here by Moslem residents. That is why God supports IDF against hamas and other terrorists.

THis soldier who murdered this girl is an IDF soldier, and here you clearly stating that God supports the IDF. Given the context of our discussion (about the murder of a 13 y.o girl by an IDF soldier), then your implications are rather clear for all to see.

What was that about lieing.

And why do you always refer to my religous beliefs when debating me? It really does not reflect well on you.

You have attempted to justify the murder of a 13 y.o girl and you reckon it is I that is going to burn in hell. LOL.

Yeah whatever.....

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« Last Edit: Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:41am by Lestat »

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #60 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:38am

jordan484 wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:31am:

No, I'm not.

Funny, sure looks like a defence.

jordan484 wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:31am:

What's your definition of an "innocent" person? Only a muslim?

No...any non-combatant.

jordan484 wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:31am:

All evidence to the contrary up to this point.

That is a lie and you know it. Care to share with us this 'evidence' you speak of?

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Gaybriel

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #61 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:42am

jordan484 wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:18am:

I'm not defending anyone, no one here is my "non-muslim buddy" all I was doing was stating the logic is the same.

I disagree that you only blame the west on atrocities committed against muslims, I feel you blame the west instead of blaming Islam or muslims, either because they were forced into a situation by the west or they are "puppets" of the west or numerous other excuses for muslims behaving badly.

if the logic is the same why are you not attacking tallowood's argument the same as you would attack abu's?

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Gaybriel

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #62 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:44am

Yadda wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:31am:

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 5:31pm:

it's amazing that not one person here has condemned the behaviour of the people in the videos

I doubt half of you even watched them

Gaybriel,

I confess i have not watched these particular videos.

I am on dialup [typically] @ 21 kb/s

My bandwidth [such as it is!] is too precious to waste, in spending hours downloading ISLAMIC propaganda.
....i've seen a lot of it before.

+++++++

I'd rather pursue a different path of inquiry.....

Google,
pallywood propaganda israel palestinian conflict
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=pallywood+propaganda+israel+palestinian+...

well if you haven't watched them I suggest you are ill-equipped to comment. unless you have something constructive to add about israel and palestine. we have already discussed false reports from palestine

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #63 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:45am

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:34am:

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:25am:

No I did not, where did I say that the soldier is a hero? Does Koran teach you to tell lies? I doubt that.

And stop denying will of God when he manifests it.

First post on this thread. Here you go.

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:25am:

Unfortunately some of the Moslem (bad) used children for suicide attack. Such behaviour is disgusting and is against Islamic doctrine according to what was told here by Moslem residents. That is why God supports IDF against hamas and other terrorists.

...
So where there is anything about the soldier?

It was you not I who said something about the soldier-hero...Was it your tacit aknowledgment of God's will or you still deny that God wills everything?

Quote:

Yeah whatever

mod: personal, not constructive, childish

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« Last Edit: Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:47am by Gaybriel »

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Gaybriel

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #64 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:46am

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:45am:

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:34am:

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:25am:

No I did not, where did I say that the soldier is a hero? Does Koran teach you to tell lies? I doubt that.

And stop denying will of God when he manifests it.

First post on this thread. Here you go.

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:25am:

Unfortunately some of the Moslem (bad) used children for suicide attack. Such behaviour is disgusting and is against Islamic doctrine according to what was told here by Moslem residents. That is why God supports IDF against hamas and other terrorists.

...
So where there is anything about the soldier?

It was you not I who said something about the soldier-hero...Was it your tacit aknowledgment of God's will or you still deny that God wills everything?

Quote:

Yeah whatever

This sort of argument makes you bad in eyes of Allah and the looser of discussion.

it's logical deduction

IMO it is quite arrogant to assume you know the mind of God. you do not know how God sees Lestat.

and for the record, according to Islam one does not go to hell for being angry or for lieing etc- it's hardly that simplistic.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #65 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:49am

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:42am:

jordan484 wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:18am:

I'm not defending anyone, no one here is my "non-muslim buddy" all I was doing was stating the logic is the same.

I disagree that you only blame the west on atrocities committed against muslims, I feel you blame the west instead of blaming Islam or muslims, either because they were forced into a situation by the west or they are "puppets" of the west or numerous other excuses for muslims behaving badly.

if the logic is the same why are you not attacking tallowood's argument the same as you would attack abu's?

Their argument is being attacked......what I found interesting is that those doing the attacking use the same logic, only in reverse. That's the point I was making.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #66 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:52am

Quote:

Funny, sure looks like a defence.

Well it isn't.

Quote:

No...any non-combatant.

Care to elaborate?

Quote:

That is a lie and you know it. Care to share with us this 'evidence' you speak of?

No, it's not a lie.....and check any number of threads on Islam where abu attempts to defend the indefensible.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #67 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:00am

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:46am:

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:45am:

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:34am:

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:25am:

No I did not, where did I say that the soldier is a hero? Does Koran teach you to tell lies? I doubt that.

And stop denying will of God when he manifests it.

First post on this thread. Here you go.

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:25am:

Unfortunately some of the Moslem (bad) used children for suicide attack. Such behaviour is disgusting and is against Islamic doctrine according to what was told here by Moslem residents. That is why God supports IDF against hamas and other terrorists.

...
So where there is anything about the soldier?

It was you not I who said something about the soldier-hero...Was it your tacit aknowledgment of God's will or you still deny that God wills everything?

Quote:

Yeah whatever

This sort of argument makes you bad in eyes of Allah and the looser of discussion.

it's logical deduction

IMO it is quite arrogant to assume you know the mind of God. you do not know how God sees Lestat.

and for the record, according to Islam one does not go to hell for being angry or for lieing etc- it's hardly that simplistic.

It was deduction of Lestat, which has nothing to do with logic but a lot to do with personal attacks and lies.

Did you clean out his transgressions yet instead of apologising for that sinner?

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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #68 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:05am I thought I had modded out all personal attacks- feel free to pm me if I've missed some (so as not to clog up this thread). or you can put them in the complaints thread
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Израиль Навсегда Posts: 7303 Gender:	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #69 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:12am mod: deleted
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Lestat Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1403	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #70 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:19am mod: deleted
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Израиль Навсегда Posts: 7303 Gender:	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #71 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:25am Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:19am: mod: deleted Allah's will is evident.
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Lestat

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #72 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:28am

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:00am:

This sort of argument makes you bad in eyes of Allah and the looser of discussion.

This is logical deduction, however, with you I'm not sure why I even bother. Obviously logic aint one of your strongest points.

It was deduction of Lestat, which has nothing to do with logic but a lot to do with personal attacks and lies.

Did you clean out his transgressions yet instead of apologising for that sinner?

lol..yeah right...I'm the looser.

You have been given a number of opportunities now to condemn the murderer who shot a 13 y.o girl 14 times in the chest...yet you choose to attack Hamas, and I have shown clearly that you stated that 'God supports the IDF', of which this soldier is a member of.

IF your talking about transgressions, once again, go and read the posts and your continuos personal attacks directed at me and my religon.

I have not once mentioned your religous beliefs, yet you continously attack mine. Perhaps Gabriel should actuall look at who is insulting who here, and act accordingly.

Fact is you have defended this soldiers actions, and chosen to blame Hamas, and not the one who pulled the trigger. These are the facts, and even though you can claim them to be lies to your hearts content, unfortunately for you, your views are their for all to see.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #73 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:35am

Gabriel,

Do these comments not constitute personal abuse?

"This sort of argument makes you bad in eyes of Allah and the looser of discussion."

"Does Allah will you to tell lies or are you servant of Shaitan?"

"Your twisting the Truth and continuous personal attacks makes Islam to look bad and according to Koran you will burn in hell for that. "

Really I don't care whether you remove these quotes or not, cause really, they make the poster look rather foolish, however, I am not sure why you have removed or modded my posts, whilst allowing these quotes to remain.

Everything I have said has been deduced by what has been written by the poster in this very thread. It is not him I have attacked, but his views.

Whereas his statements have nothing to do with the topic or my posts for that matter, and he has posted them in desperation and in order to insult and anger.

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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #74 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:39am thankyou for pointing these out- I will have a look at them. discussion of this has been moved to complaints- any further comments please leave them there
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tallowood

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #75 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:44am

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:28am:

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:00am:

This sort of argument makes you bad in eyes of Allah and the looser of discussion.

This is logical deduction, however, with you I'm not sure why I even bother. Obviously logic aint one of your strongest points.

It was deduction of Lestat, which has nothing to do with logic but a lot to do with personal attacks and lies.

Did you clean out his transgressions yet instead of apologising for that sinner?

lol..yeah right...I'm the looser.

mod: personal

Now Israel like any other state has the right to defence itself and it's citizens against terrorism. Unfortunately there are no was without innocent civilians suffering. The only answer is not to have the war but hamas and other terrorist like taliban and alqueda does not like this answer and prefer the war at any costs. It is obvious that they ar to blame for the horrible cost of war in human terms.

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Lestat

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #76 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:48am

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:44am:

Now Israel like any other state has the right to defence itself and it's citizens against terrorism. Unfortunately there are no was without innocent civilians suffering. The only answer is not to have the war but hamas and other terrorist like taliban and alqueda does not like this answer and prefer the war at any costs. It is obvious that they ar to blame for the horrible cost of war in human terms.

So a 13 year old girl in school uniform being shot 14 times in the chest, in clear daylight by an IDF soldier is self defence?

And Hamas is to blame?

Does this logic of your apply to both sides, or is it only when Palestinian children are killed by IDF soldiers, that you choose to defend the murderers of children in this way?

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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #77 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:48am no more pot shots please. keep the discussion to the topic and not about each other. any more personal comments will be deleted complaints? take them to the complaints topic
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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #78 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:55am

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:48am:

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:44am:

Now Israel like any other state has the right to defence itself and it's citizens against terrorism. Unfortunately there are no was without innocent civilians suffering. The only answer is not to have the war but hamas and other terrorist like taliban and alqueda does not like this answer and prefer the war at any costs. It is obvious that they ar to blame for the horrible cost of war in human terms.

So a 13 year old girl in school uniform being shot 14 times in the chest, in clear daylight by an IDF soldier is self defence?

And Hamas is to blame?

Does this logic of your apply to both sides, or is it only when Palestinian children are killed by IDF soldiers, that you choose to defend the murderers of children in this way?

You forgot to mention that there was a case before that when another palestinian girl was pressed by hamas to do actual bombing in which IDF soldiers did get hurt. So yes it was self defence as far as war goes and hamas is to blame for using children and other civilians for the dispeakable acts of terrorism.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #79 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:00pm

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:55am:

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:48am:

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:44am:

Now Israel like any other state has the right to defence itself and it's citizens against terrorism. Unfortunately there are no was without innocent civilians suffering. The only answer is not to have the war but hamas and other terrorist like taliban and alqueda does not like this answer and prefer the war at any costs. It is obvious that they ar to blame for the horrible cost of war in human terms.

So a 13 year old girl in school uniform being shot 14 times in the chest, in clear daylight by an IDF soldier is self defence?

And Hamas is to blame?

Does this logic of your apply to both sides, or is it only when Palestinian children are killed by IDF soldiers, that you choose to defend the murderers of children in this way?

You forgot to mention that there was a case before that when another palestinian girl was pressed by hamas to do actual bombing in which IDF soldiers did get hurt. So yes it was self defence as far as war goes and hamas is to blame for using children and other civilians for the dispeakable acts of terrorism.

lol...really? Care to share with us this 'apparent case'. Any evidence...or are we supposed to 'take your word for it'.

Funny how its war when the IDF doing anything, yet when Hamas (who are in the same war) do anything, your 'its war' excuse seems to go right out the window.

And even so, tell me how this justifies this murderer shooting another Palestinian girl in a school uniform 14 times in the chest.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #80 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:17pm

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:00pm:

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:55am:

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:48am:

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:44am:

Now Israel like any other state has the right to defence itself and it's citizens against terrorism. Unfortunately there are no was without innocent civilians suffering. The only answer is not to have the war but hamas and other terrorist like taliban and alqueda does not like this answer and prefer the war at any costs. It is obvious that they ar to blame for the horrible cost of war in human terms.

So a 13 year old girl in school uniform being shot 14 times in the chest, in clear daylight by an IDF soldier is self defence?

And Hamas is to blame?

Does this logic of your apply to both sides, or is it only when Palestinian children are killed by IDF soldiers, that you choose to defend the murderers of children in this way?

You forgot to mention that there was a case before that when another palestinian girl was pressed by hamas to do actual bombing in which IDF soldiers did get hurt. So yes it was self defence as far as war goes and hamas is to blame for using children and other civilians for the dispeakable acts of terrorism.

lol...really? Care to share with us this 'apparent case'. Any evidence...or are we supposed to 'take your word for it'.

Funny how its war when the IDF doing anything, yet when Hamas (who are in the same war) do anything, your 'its war' excuse seems to go right out the window.

And even so, tell me how this justifies this murderer shooting another Palestinian girl in a school uniform 14 times in the chest.

Yes really.

It simply would not happen if islamic terrorists did not use civilians especially children in that way.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #81 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:38pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:28pm:

The Palestinians, even inside the West Bank, exist in a few large refugee camps, which just keep getting smaller and smaller, as more homes are bulldozed for settlements, more swaths of land confiscated for outposts and Jewish-only roads...

And to even travel from camp to camp, the Palestinians often need to wait for hours on end in queues whilst Israeli soldiers decide who can and can't go.

Women have had to give birth at these checkpoints, people have died just standing there waiting.... This is nothing but criminal, on a grand scale. anyone supporting this is indeed a supporter of oppression, cruelty and collective punishment.

abu,

I thought that ppl like Hamas and PLO have declared Israel a war zone????

That muslim children should aspire to be suicide bombers?

And that many muslims are sniping at vehicles on roadways etc?

Sounds like a war zone to me.

Its a pity about the road blocks though.

I wonder what the solution could be???

Good fences make good neighbours.

Shalom!

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #82 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:41pm

30 Little Known Facts About Israel

1. Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel? A Jew from any country in the world is guaranteed citizenship in Israel, while the Palestinians who have been there for centuries are oppressed and persecuted.

2. Did you know that instead of sewing an insignia on clothing to distinguish race (like the Germans did to the Jews before WW2), Palestinian license plates in Israel are color coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?

3. Did you know that East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights are all considered by the entire world community, including the United States and the United Nations, to be occupied territory and NOT part of the State of Israel?

4. Did you know that Israel allots 85% of the water resources for Jews, and the remaining 15% is divided among all Palestinians in the territories? For example in Hebron, 85% of the water is set aside for about 400 Jewish settlers, while the remaining 15% is distributed among Hebron's 120, 000 Palestinians?

5. Did you know that the United States awards Israel $5 billion in aid each year from American tax dollars?

6. Did you know that US aid to Israel ($1.8 billion annually in military aid alone) exceeds the aid the US grants to the entire African continent? This aid is used both to buy American weaponry and to buy arms made in Israel.

7. Did you know that Israel is awaiting an additional $4 billion worth of American military hardware, including new F-16s and Apache and Blackhawk helicopters. As Israel's main ally and supporter internationally, the United States is committed to maintaining the Jewish state's "qualitative edge" in weapons over its neighbours.

8. Did you know that the U.S. administration has notified Congress on numerous occasions that Israel has violated the rules on how US-supplied weapons are used? (In 1978, 1979 and 1982 during fighting in Lebanon, and once after Israel's bombing of an Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981.)

9. Did you know that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites?

10. Did you know that high-ranking military officers in the Israeli Defence Forces have admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war have been summarily executed by the Israeli forces?

11. Did you know that Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a US warship in international waters (the USS Liberty), killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors and the US did nothing about it? (Imagine if an Islamic country like Iraq did this!)

12. Did you know that Israel stands in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council Resolutions?

13. Did you know that Israel is explicitly dedicated to the policy of maintaining a distinct Jewish character?

14. Did you know that Israel's current Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, was found by an Israeli court to be "personally and directly responsible" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre in Lebanon where more than a thousand innocent Palestinian men, women, and children were axed to death or lined up and shot in cold blood?

15. Did you know that on May 20, 1990, a group of unarmed Palestinian labourers were lined up and murdered by an Israeli solider as they sat waiting for transportation back to Gaza? The terrified labourers who gathered in an area of southern Israel known as Rishon Lezion (known to Palestinians by its Arabic name Oyon Qara) handed their ID cards to the Israeli soldier. The soldiers ordered the distressed labourers to kneel down and face the ground and unexpectedly showered them with a barrage of bullets, killing seven and wounding many others. Needless to say, the soldier was not charged with any crime.

16. Did you know that until as recently as 1988, Israelis were permitted to run "Jews Only" job ads?

17. Did you know that the Israeli Foreign Ministry pays six US public relations firms to promote a "positive image" of Israel to the American public?

18. Did you know that Sharon's coalition government includes a party--Molodet--which advocates ethnic cleansing by openly calling for the forced expulsion of all Palestinians from the occupied territories?

19. Did you know that recently-declassified documents indicate that David Ben-Gurion approved of the forced expulsion of Arabs from all Palestinian territory in 1948?

20. Did you know that the former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, who is also a founder and spiritual leader of the religious Shas party (Israel's third largest political party) openly advocates a 'Final Solution' to annihilate the Palestinians? Speaking at the widely broadcast sermon marking the last Passover, he declared of the Palestinians: "The Lord shall return their deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world. It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable."

21. Did you know that Palestinian refugees make up the largest portion of the refugee population in the world?

22. Did you know that Palestinian Christians are considered the "living stones" of Christianity because they are the direct descendants of the disciples of Jesus Christ? And the Palestinian Christians stand united with their Muslim brethren in the struggle against the Israeli occupation.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #83 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:41pm

23. Did you know that despite a ban on torture by Israel's High Court of Justice, torture has continued unabated by Shin Bet interrogators on Palestinian prisoners?

24. Did you know that despite every Israeli attempt to disrupt Palestinian education, Palestinians have the highest ratio of PhDs per capita in the world?

25. Did you know that the right of self-determination is guaranteed to every human being under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [December, 1948], yet Palestinians were/are expected to negotiate for this right under the Oslo Accords?

26. Did you know that despite what is widely perpetuated and written in the history books that the Arabs attacked Israel in the 1967 war, it was Israel who attacked the Arab countries first, capturing Jerusalem and the West Bank, and called the attack a pre-emptive strike?

27. Did you know that, as an occupying power, Israel has a particular responsibility under the Geneva Conventions to protect Palestinian civilians?

28. Did you know that, despite Ariel Sharon's public call for a unilateral ceasefire, Israeli soldiers have not stopped shooting, killing or bulldozing Palestinian homes? The most recent example of this is the murder of three innocent women who were shot by an Israeli tank as they sat in their tent!

29. Did you know that the Zionists have been trying to destroy Masjid al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock for the last 50 years by digging underground tunnels beneath the sites to weaken its foundation causing it to collapse?

30. Nelson Mandela called the Israeli government an apartheid regime, just like South Africa used to be.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #84 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:43pm

Children in Palestine: The Facts
60% of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories are under 19-years-old.
One in 3 Palestinian males aged 15-19 is an unskilled worker. Unemployment is a severe problem for young Palestinian men: 20% of 15-19-year-olds cannot find paid work.
20% of Palestinian females marry between the ages of 15-19. More than 1 in 10 subsequently divorce.
According to the United Nations Fund for Children (UNICEF): “Conditions have rarely been worse for Palestinian children.” One in 10 Palestinian children now suffer from stunted growth due to compromised health, poor diet and nutrition and 50% of Palestinian children are anemic, and 75% of those under 5 suffer from vitamin A deficiency.
UNICEF claims that roadblocks, barriers, checkpoints and soldiers are impeding health workers and patients, including child patients, from accessing health centers across the Occupied Palestinian Territory. Delivery of medication and equipment are also severely affected.
On March 8th, 2007 Khaled Daud Faqih died at a checkpoint between the village of Kafr’Ain and the city of Ramallah. His parents were trying to take him to Ramallah hospital, but were detained at a checkpoint by Israeli soldiers. Khaled Daud Faqih was 6 months old.
Rising poverty and unemployment is affecting school attendance across Palestine. In the 2005/6 school year the number of students whose families could not afford the NIS 50 ($11) school fee doubled from 29,000 to 56,000.
Up to 67% of families are living in poverty across the West Bank. In Gaza poverty rates have spiraled to 85% this year, severely affecting every aspect of children’s lives.
Increasing numbers of Palestinian children are now working to support their families instead of attending school. Palestinian children under the age of 14 can cross Israeli checkpoints without permits, and at least one thousand Palestinian children now cross into Israel every day, to work in garbage tips salvaging glass and metal. More than half of the Palestinian children who work in Israel, or Palestine, do not attend school at all.

Children Killed in Conflict
Since September 2000, approximately 883 Palestinian children have been killed in the Occupied Territories. The majority of these children were shot and killed by the Israeli military. However, Israeli settlers have also shot and killed Palestinian children.
124 Palestinian children were killed in 2006, more than twice the number killed the previous year. From January–July 2007, 31 children were killed. The vast majority of child deaths in Palestine are caused by live ammunition shots to the head or chest, generally indicative of an Israeli “shoot to kill” policy.
On July 4th 2007 Israeli troops shot and killed a 15-year-old Palestinian boy in Hebron. Ahmad Abed Al-Muhsin Skafi was shot 4 times in his upper torso. Israeli troops then allowed a military dog to maul the boy’s dead body, tearing his intestines from his stomach and mutilating his right hand.
20,000 Palestinian children have been injured since September 2000. Almost 1,500 of them sustained life-long disabilities.

Child Arrests and International Law
International law states that child imprisonment should be used as a last resort. However the Israeli military routinely arrest and detain Palestinian children.
Since September 2002 approximately 5,200 Palestinian children have been arrested by the Israeli military. Israel continues to prosecute all children in military courts, to use imprisonment as a first resort, to deny children prompt access to a lawyer, to elicit confessions under interrogation and torture and to attempt to recruit child detainees as collaborators with Israel’s secret security agency. These actions are all explicitly in violation of Article 40 of the 1989 UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which Israel has signed.
Seven hundred Palestinian children were arrested by the Israeli military during 2006.
There are now approximately 426 Palestinian children being held in Israeli detention. They regularly receive lengthy terms of imprisonment for minor offences such as stone throwing.
Israeli Military Order 132 defines a Palestinian child as a person under the age of 16. Therefore Palestinians over the age of 16 are sentenced as adults and imprisoned with adults. This law discriminates against Palestinian children and is contrary to the UN Convention on the Rights of Child, which defines a child as under 18. Israelis under the age of 18 are legally defined and treated as children.

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/spip/spip.php?article11

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #85 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:48pm

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:17pm:

Yes really.

It simply would not happen if islamic terrorists did not use civilians especially children in that way.

So how do you explain the fact that Palestinian children were being shot and killed by the IDF long before the first suicide bombing, and long before HAMAS was even formed?

Your lies are easily exposed, and you are just pathetically attempting to justify the murder of innocent children, and even worst, defending those who actually pulled the trigger and killed these children in cold blood.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #86 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:51pm

Yadda wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:38pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:28pm:

The Palestinians, even inside the West Bank, exist in a few large refugee camps, which just keep getting smaller and smaller, as more homes are bulldozed for settlements, more swaths of land confiscated for outposts and Jewish-only roads...

And to even travel from camp to camp, the Palestinians often need to wait for hours on end in queues whilst Israeli soldiers decide who can and can't go.

Women have had to give birth at these checkpoints, people have died just standing there waiting.... This is nothing but criminal, on a grand scale. anyone supporting this is indeed a supporter of oppression, cruelty and collective punishment.

abu,

I thought that ppl like Hamas and PLO have declared Israel a war zone????

That muslim children should aspire to be suicide bombers?

And that many muslims are sniping at vehicles on roadways etc?

Sounds like a war zone to me.

Its a pity about the road blocks though.

I wonder what the solution could be???

http://www.deiryassin.org/images/fpwall.jpg
Good fences make good neighbours.

Shalom!

It is true some Moslem like to have children to do suicide for them.
Saddam used to pay to such Palestinian families dirty money so they can produce more of the same.

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Израиль Навсегда Posts: 7303 Gender:	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #87 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:53pm Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:48pm: tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:17pm: Yes really. It simply would not happen if islamic terrorists did not use civilians especially children in that way. Your lies There are no lies in my posts. mod: stay on topic
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Lestat

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #88 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:58pm

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:53pm:

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:48pm:

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 12:17pm:

Yes really.

It simply would not happen if islamic terrorists did not use civilians especially children in that way.

Your lies

There are no lies in my posts.

mod: stay on topic

mod: deleted

Any chance you'll actually attempt to address my post. Just in case you've forgotten here it is again.

"So how do you explain the fact that Palestinian children were being shot and killed by the IDF long before the first suicide bombing, and long before HAMAS was even formed?"

mod: off topic

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« Last Edit: Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:12pm by Gaybriel »

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #89 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:05pm

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 8:56am:

Yeah, we get it. A 13 y.o girl in school uniform walking home is a terrorist and law breaker in your eyes. In fact, just being Palestinian makes them terrorists...you've already pathetically attempted to justify the murder of a 13 y.o girl in school uniform in clear daylight being shot 14 times, so we all understtand your disgusting views and your support for the murderers of children.

As long as they're muslims children ofcourse.

Lestat,

These ppl are not children per se.

They are co-combatants, in a war of attrition against Israel.

And, and, and,
......this is WHAT ISLAMISTS WANT.

But Lestat,

I thought all muslims who died in conflict with the kuffar went straight to Allah's paradise?

Isn't that what all devout muslims teach their children?

Use children as troops, says cleric

By Luke McIlveen and staff writers
January 18, 2007
SYDNEY'S most influential radical Muslim cleric has been caught on film calling Jews pigs and urging children to die for Allah.
Firebrand Sheik Feiz Mohammed, head of the Global Islamic Youth Centre in Liverpool [Australia], delivered the hateful rants on a collection of DVDs called the Death Series being sold in Australia and overseas.
.........Sheik Feiz says in the video.
"We want to have children and offer them as soldiers defending Islam. Teach them this: There is nothing more beloved to me than wanting to die as a mujahid (holy warrior). Put in their soft, tender hearts the zeal of jihad and a love of martyrdom."
An Australian citizen born in Sydney who has spent the past year living in Lebanon, Sheik Feiz was exposed this week in a British documentary Undercover Mosque.
......"The peak, the pinnacle, the crest, the highest point, the pivot, the summit of Islam is jihad," he declares in the film, before denouncing "kaffirs" (non-Muslims).
"Kaffir is the worst word ever written, a sign of infidelity, disbelief, filth, a sign of dirt."
......Sheik Feiz - who just two weeks ago said he felt like an "alien" in his own country - leads about 4000 followers through his Global Islamic Youth Centre in Sydney's southwest.
He also accused Australian authorities of being over-zealous in their approach to clerics like him.
"There are no sheiks preaching chaos there. No one is telling people to raise arms against the Australian community," he said.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21074839-2,00.html
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014863.php

And isn't it TRUE that ISLAMIST's encourage muslims to die, fighting against the Zionists [and all kuffar]???

But, but, but,
......when muslims die, when there are casualties, suddenly, it is all 'their fault' ???

And where have i heard that before?

"We muslims all want to die as Jihad martyrs for Allah.
.....This is our firmest desire!!!!!"

But when muslims die in their own instigated conflicts.....

"Those Zionist are murdering innocent muslims!!!!"

Lestat,

Don't they still get to go to Allah's paradise????

++++++

Let the blood of those who are innocents, be on the head of all ISLAMISTS, and upon the head of all who support the ISLAMISTS with their silence [their approval of this evil].

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« Last Edit: Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:26pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Израиль Навсегда Posts: 7303 Gender:	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #90 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:08pm mod: deleted. stop the back and forth and stay on topic
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Израиль Навсегда Posts: 7303 Gender:	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #91 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:14pm That how islamo terrorists abuse their own children.
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Lestat

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #92 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:18pm

Yadda wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:05pm:

Lestat,

These ppl are not children per se.

They are co-combatants, in a war of attrition against Israel.

A 13 y.o girl in school uniform is not a child?

A 13 y.o girl in a schol uniform is a co-combatant?

In other words, in your mind, any Palestinian is fair game, because they are all co-combatants.

Thanks Yadda...you've actually told us all exactly the type of person you are.

Thanks for 'enlightening' us all. I have ceased to take anything you say seriously long ago, now perhaps others can see why.

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Lestat Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1403	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #93 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:21pm mod: deleted, personal. stay on topic.
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Израиль Навсегда Posts: 7303 Gender:	Re: Palestinians abusing children Reply #94 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:27pm More Palestinian Child Abuse
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Израиль Навсегда Posts: 7303 Gender:	13 year old islamic girl Reply #95 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:48pm A GIRL believed to be just 13 has detonated an explosives belt and blown herself up at a checkpoint ...
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Re: 13 year old islamic girl
Reply #96 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:51pm

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:48pm:

A GIRL believed to be just 13 has detonated an explosives belt and blown herself up at a checkpoint ...
http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6343242,00.jpg

This is Iraq, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't we talking about Palestine.

BZZZT. Wrong again.

(Sorry, I forgot, in your view their all arabs/muslims therefore they all deserve to die, and God is on the side of those who kill children).

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #97 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:54pm

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:18pm:

Yadda wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:05pm:

Lestat,

These ppl are not children per se.

They are co-combatants, in a war of attrition against Israel.

A 13 y.o girl in school uniform is not a child?

A 13 y.o girl in a schol uniform is a co-combatant?

In other words, in your mind, any Palestinian is fair game, because they are all co-combatants.

Thanks Yadda...you've actually told us all exactly the type of person you are.

Thanks for 'enlightening' us all. I have ceased to take anything you say seriously long ago, now perhaps others can see why.

Lestat,

I will be judged by my words, and by that which is in my heart.

Do you imagine that you, and your confederates, will not be????

As i have said already, here,

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1229690857/13#13

666666666666666
Here is the 'rightful' morality of the Jihad, explained, by and ISLAMIST....

There Can Be No End to Jihad'
Islamist Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad, in an exclusive interview, discusses the rationale for 9/11, the Christians he most respects, and the Jesus he defends.
posted 11/05/2007
....Any weapons are legitimate in jihad. Even animals may be used as "suicide bombers"! It is not restricted by target—even Muslims or children, if used by the enemy as human shields, can be killed.
....
Killing women and children never was and never will be part of the jihad in Islam
, whether that be the women or children of the Muslims or non-Muslims. So if Chechen mujahedeen killed women and children in Beslan, I would condemn it. The children of non-Muslims, such as those at Beslan, who die in such circumstances go to Paradise.
....Women and children [i.e. boys under 15] or Muslims are not legitimate targets—nor are any noncombatants [clergy, disabled, insane, elderly, etc.]. Not even Israeli children or women, unless they serve in the military, which most do, or live in properties taken from dispossessed Palestinians (Muslim or Christian), which virtually all do.
However, if children are killed, the fault lies with the adult occupiers who brought them into a battlefield situation
.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/februaryweb-only/22.0.html
666666666666666

ISLAMISTS, their own words will condemn them.

All ISLAMISTS are deceivers, liars, and hypocrites.

They are bloody men, one and all.

mod: personal attack

"KUFFAR".....
".....[an unbeliever] a person....who hides, denies, or covers the truth."

mod: personal attack

I am a believer.

Psalms 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing [deceit]: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

I am a believer, of TRUTH.

And my God, is the God of TRUTH.

Deuteronomy 32:3
Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Psalms 31:5
Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

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« Last Edit: Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:19pm by Gaybriel »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Re: 13 year old islamic girl
Reply #98 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 2:02pm

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:51pm:

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:48pm:

A GIRL believed to be just 13 has detonated an explosives belt and blown herself up at a checkpoint ...
http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6343242,00.jpg

This is Iraq, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't we talking about Palestine.

Islam has no borders.

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Re: 13 year old islamic girl
Reply #99 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 2:25pm

Soren wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 2:02pm:

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:51pm:

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:48pm:

A GIRL believed to be just 13 has detonated an explosives belt and blown herself up at a checkpoint ...
http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6343242,00.jpg

This is Iraq, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't we talking about Palestine.

Islam has no borders.

Only when its convenient for you and your justification of the murder of children...eh Soren?

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Yadda

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Re: 13 year old islamic girl
Reply #100 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 2:37pm

Soren wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 2:02pm:

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:51pm:

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:48pm:

A GIRL believed to be just 13 has detonated an explosives belt and blown herself up at a checkpoint ...
http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6343242,00.jpg

This is Iraq, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't we talking about Palestine.

Islam has no borders.

LOL

soren,

Good reply!!

And so very true.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #101 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 2:45pm

Yes it is Iraq and it is the tactics of Islamic terrorism, which is the same what hamas uses. In fact hamas was using this tactics before aq, that was how children-soldiers lost their innocence status, soldiers at war do get killed and full responsibility for their blood is on the leaders who continue to perpetuate the war. That is why I say hamas is guilty.

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Lestat

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #102 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 3:32pm

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 2:45pm:

Yes it is Iraq and it is the tactics of Islamic terrorism, which is the same what hamas uses. In fact hamas was using this tactics before aq, that was how children-soldiers lost their innocence status, soldiers at war do get killed and full responsibility for their blood is on the leaders who continue to perpetuate the war. That is why I say hamas is guilty.

Oh sorry, I must of missed that bit in the article I posted that stated that Iman was a child soldier.

Oh...thats right, she wasn't. She was just a normal 13 y.o girl, going to school just as millions of other 13 y.o girls all over the world, in uniform, and in clear daylight.

Though she was Palestinian, and I guess that in your

mod:personal attack

minds, this means that she is no longer innocent. Guilty by association huh.

She was no threat to anyone, yet she was gunned down in cold blood, by a soldier who is a member of the army that you belive has the full support of God.

Its amazing the lengths you guys will go too to justify the murder of an innocent child. Really...have you no inlkling of shame.

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« Last Edit: Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:18pm by Gaybriel »

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Израиль Навсегда Posts: 7303 Gender:	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #103 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 3:45pm Does anyone else think that such school is ordinary?
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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #104 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:17pm let's keep the discussion in palestine. this is about palestine not islam. you can bet even if the majority of palestinians were christian or catholic they would still be fighting the israelis
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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #105 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:22pm tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 3:45pm: Does anyone else think that such school is ordinary? yes that is quite sick- but who is to say that this girl attended such a school this is what happens when a country's infrastructure, educations system, economy etc is torn apart
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Lestat Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1403	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #106 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:28pm Even Palestinian Christians are unfortunately victims of these criminals. ------------------- http://www.cultural-expressions.com/thesis/truthwillsetyoufree.htm
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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #107 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:31pm

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:17pm:

let's keep the discussion in palestine. this is about palestine not islam.

you can bet even if the majority of palestinians were christian or catholic they would still be fighting the israelis

I can bet on opposite and I would win.

Of course it has nothing to do with hamas being islamic organisation but rather with them being islamist organisation and islamism has no borders.

BTW, why did you deleted my posts where I don't attack anybody and left lestat's post where he's going on about me?

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #108 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:37pm

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:31pm:

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:17pm:

let's keep the discussion in palestine. this is about palestine not islam.

you can bet even if the majority of palestinians were christian or catholic they would still be fighting the israelis

I can bet on opposite and I would win.

don't think so!

Quote:

Of course it has nothing to do with hamas being islamic organisation but rather with them being islamist organisation and islamism has no borders.

BTW, why did you deleted my posts where I don't attack anybody and left lestat's post where he's going on about me?

just send me the post and I'll have a look

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #109 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:41pm

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:37pm:

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:31pm:

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:17pm:

let's keep the discussion in palestine. this is about palestine not islam.

you can bet even if the majority of palestinians were christian or catholic they would still be fighting the israelis

I can bet on opposite and I would win.

don't think so!

Quote:

Of course it has nothing to do with hamas being islamic organisation but rather with them being islamist organisation and islamism has no borders.

BTW, why did you deleted my posts where I don't attack anybody and left lestat's post where he's going on about me?

just send me the post and I'll have a look

You are wrong

Just go to pages 6 and 7 and see for yourself how he tells lies about me.

Anyway why you delete my posts where is no personal attacks at all?

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Израиль Навсегда Posts: 7303 Gender:	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #110 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:46pm more ordinary palestinian school girls in ordinary palestinian uniforms (explosives belts and the rest)
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Soren

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #111 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:54pm

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:17pm:

let's keep the discussion in palestine. this is about palestine not islam.

you can bet even if the majority of palestinians were christian or catholic they would still be fighting the israelis

Right there is a huge miscontruing of the situation. And this assertion is calculated to remove the essence of the source Mulism Arab hostility to Israeel.

Israel'ss resistance of terrorists is a normal state's response to constant threats against its citizens.

The motivation of Muslims - and not just palestinian Arabs - is motivated by religion. The palestinian refugees are kept in squalor by their muslim brethren in order to maintain the hostility towards israel. Why?

The hunreds of millions of Arab muslims could have easily abssorbed the few hundred thousand palestinians. The sliver of land that is Israel is geographically insignificant in comparison to the Arab lands.

It is not even about about the ownership of land as far as the arabs are concerned - arabs happily sold their land to jews beforee 1948.

It is about the fact that the existence of Israel contradict Islam. That is why all the Muslimss involve themselves.

And to anticipatee your parallel, catholic populations of latin America, Italy, Spain etc did not involve themselves in the N-Ireland conflict, because it was not a challenge to their religion in a way that Israel's very existence is a challenge to and repudiation of Islam.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #112 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 5:08pm

Soren wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:54pm:

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:17pm:

let's keep the discussion in palestine. this is about palestine not islam.

you can bet even if the majority of palestinians were christian or catholic they would still be fighting the israelis

Right there is a huge miscontruing of the situation. And this assertion is calculated to remove the essence of the source Mulism Arab hostility to Israeel.

Israel'ss resistance of terrorists is a normal state's response to constant threats against its citizens.

you do not think that palestinians are terrorised in any way?

if palestinians had the luxury of conducted traditional warfare they would. what they do to fight is the only thing they can

Quote:

The motivation of Muslims - and not just palestinian Arabs - is motivated by religion. The palestinian refugees are kept in squalor by their muslim brethren in order to maintain the hostility towards israel. Why?

this is very untrue- where do you get this from?

a lot of aid is sent to palestinians from muslims (and others) around the world. unfortunately much of it is blocked. The US has blocked certain aid to palestine and so has Israel. so if you're looking for someone to blame for the squalor I suggest you look to them.

Quote:

The hunreds of millions of Arab muslims could have easily abssorbed the few hundred thousand palestinians. The sliver of land that is Israel is geographically insignificant in comparison to the Arab lands.

this is hardly the point, even if this were true

1. why is it their responsibility to do this? just because they're arab?

2. palestinians want their HOME back, they want their land.

3. this does nothing to undo or make up for the original injustice

Quote:

It is not even about about the ownership of land as far as the arabs are concerned - arabs happily sold their land to jews beforee 1948.

selling land is different from forced dispossession from that land

Quote:

It is about the fact that the existence of Israel contradict Islam. That is why all the Muslimss involve themselves.

nothing supports this theory. religion has taken over for many yes, much as the northern ireland conflict was always put in religious terms- the hatred there between religions was unbelievable. but was their orignal complaint about religion or about sovereignty?

Quote:

And to anticipatee your parallel, catholic populations of latin America, Italy, Spain etc did not involve themselves in the N-Ireland conflict, because it was not a challenge to their religion in a way that Israel's very existence is a challenge to and repudiation of Islam.

northern ireland was about sovereignty although much of it was phrased in religious terms. it manifested itself that way yes- but this was not the complaint.

much in the way that palestine's issue is with sovereignty, about being under occupation, about being oppressed.

it is good that muslims around the world see this injustice and fight against it. just as many non-muslims do.

and yes the irish on both sides of the conflict in northern ireland had many international supporters and you will find that anyone of the irish diaspora most certainly had support for one side or the other

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Израиль Навсегда Posts: 7303 Gender:	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #113 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 5:24pm I think that Palestinian children are terrorised by Palestinian terrorists http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=blqaVHws1W0 What northern Ireland have to do with it, why do you go off topic while insisting that we stay on topic?
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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #114 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 5:32pm the northern ireland parallel was drawn- I responded to it as a part of my overall argument
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Израиль Навсегда Posts: 7303 Gender:	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #115 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 5:38pm Gaybriel wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 5:32pm: the northern ireland parallel was drawn- I responded to it as a part of my overall argument When 13 year old girl was discussed I explained how dangerous a suicidal 13 year old girl with explosive belt can be and was accused of not staying on topic.
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Soren

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #116 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 5:50pm

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 5:08pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:54pm:

[quote]The motivation of Muslims - and not just palestinian Arabs - is motivated by religion. The palestinian refugees are kept in squalor by their muslim brethren in order to maintain the hostility towards israel. Why?

this is very untrue- where do you get this from?

From here, among other places.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=_lyXZu3d3OcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=joel+ric...

Scroll down the page to read the cheif palestinian mufti's way of putting it.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #117 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 7:26am

There was no such think as a palestianian till the mandate was created gaybriel. how many times do I have to post historical facts on this site before all you Muslims and Muslim sympathisers stop spouting nonsense. Do I have to post it to you all individually? At least Abu has changed his rhetoric a bit dsince last time I had to correct him.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #118 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 7:57am

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:18pm:

Thanks Yadda...you've actually told us all exactly the type of person you are.

FOR ALL YOU PEOPLE WHO HAVE COMPASSION,
....FOR THE 'VICTIMS' OF THOSE EVIL 'MURDEROUS ZIONISTS'...

Repeat after me,
"ISLAM - IS A DEATH CULT."

"......in the words of Islamism's most influential thinker, Sayyid Qutb,
....."the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood." "
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8802-2243871,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb

Repeat after me,
"ISLAM - IS A DEATH CULT."

"We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two."
Osama bin Laden, November 2001
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=%22We+love+death.+The+US+loves+life%22+l...

Repeat after me,
"ISLAM - IS A DEATH CULT."

"The Jews love life,.....they love life and we love death."
Hezbollah’s Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=%22they+love+life+and+we+love+death%22+N...

Repeat after me,
"ISLAM - IS A DEATH CULT."

"We're talking about people [muslims] who like to die, the way, you [unbelievers] like to live."
Abu Izzadeen - UK cleric, July, 2006
http://www.islam-watch.org/AdrianMorgan/Izzadin_Sharia_conquer_infidel2.htm
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=%22We%27re+talking+about+people+who+like+to+di...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Izzadeen

Repeat after me,
"ISLAM - IS A DEATH CULT."

25 May 2007
"......Al-Faisal spent years travelling the UK preaching racial hatred urging his audience to kill Jews, Hindus and Westerners.
......But throughout the trial he denied he had intended to incite people to violence.
......he argued his talks came from the Koran and if he was on trial so was the holy text."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6692243.stm

Repeat after me,
"ISLAM - IS A DEATH CULT.
.....And i am an ISLAMIST dupe.
.....And yet, i am happy to act as an apologist for HOMICIDAL MANIACS, because they constantly assure me that they really are my friends."

February 5, 2008
70-year-old woman, convert from Islam to Christianity, burned to death in Bangladesh
....DHAKA, BANGLADESH (BosNewsLife)-- Christian villagers in a Muslim-majority area of Bangladesh on Tuesday, February 5, mourned the death of a 70-year-old woman who died from burns she suffered when a mob reportedly set her home ablaze as a punishment for converting from Islam to Christianity.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/019813.php

++++++++

To all you people who really, really are, the friends of murderers.....

"And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean:"

++++++++

Matthew 24:10
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Matthew 24:37
....as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Genesis 6:11
.....and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah.....the earth is filled with violence through them....

Psalms 11:4
The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

When God is revealed to their hearts, men will be ashamed.....

Isaiah 25:7
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Isaiah 40:5
And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Malachi 3:1
....and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth?

Revelation 6:16
And [men] said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

++++++++

The Koran....

"Behold! they fold up their hearts, that they may lie hid from Him! Ah even when they cover themselves with their garments, He knoweth what they conceal, and what they reveal: for He knoweth well the (inmost secrets) of the hearts."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/011.qmt.html#011.005

"Then, on the Day of Judgment,.....Then would they offer submission (with the pretence), "We did no evil (knowingly)." (The angels will reply), "Nay, but verily Allah knoweth all that ye did;"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/016.qmt.html#016.027
.v 27, 28

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #119 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 8:24am

The EU and the West' are the dupes of ISLAMIC 'victim' propaganda.

They have already given $Billions to Palestinians, in cash and aid.

TO WHAT EFFECT?
....where did / does all of that money, and aid, go???

Google this....
Arafat died a billionaire.
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=Arafat+died+a+billionaire.&btnG=Google+S...

And of course, we all know that Arafat was a great peacemaker, having received the Nobel Peace Prize.
/sarc off

Palestinians have been the recipients of a tremendous amount of aid from the West.

But have not spent it on building a nation,
....rather they are bombarding Israeli towns with rockets.
....as Europe pledges [MORE CASH AND ASSISTANCE] $7.4 billion!!!
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aHvsZhQ7xiYo&refer=home

As i said, the EU and the West' are dupes - to the ISLAMIC 'victim' propaganda.

But, the 'Palestinians' leadership still have enough 'sense' to shut down Internet cafes, and other sources of independent information,
KEEPING THEIR OWN PEOPLE LIVING IN IGNORANCE AND SQUALOR...

News items,

Dec. 2, 2006
Gaza women warned of immodesty
A....group calling itself the Just Swords of Islam issued a warning to Palestinian women in the Gaza Strip over the weekend that they must wear the hijab or face being targeted by the group's members.
.....The group said its followers last week threw acid at the face of a young woman who was dressed "immodestly" in the center of Gaza City.
.....the group also claimed responsibility for attacks on 12 Internet cafes over the past few days.
....."We will have no mercy on any woman who violates the traditions of Islam and who also hang out in Internet cafes."
ACCORDING TO THE GROUP, ITS MEMBERS USED ROCKET-PROPELLED GRENADES to attack 12 Internet cafes and a number of music shops in different parts of the Gaza Strip.
It said the places were targeted because they were "distracting an entire generation of Palestinians from their duty to worship [Alla] and jihad....
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1164881802888&pagename=JPost%2FJPArti...

June 3, 2008
Anti-Christian 'Cleansing' Campaign Picks Up Pace in Gaza
Attacks on Christian targets and those identified with Western culture have grown more frequent in Gaza in the past two years, and especially since the Hamas takeover in June 2007, experts say. The targets have included churches, Christian and United Nations schools, the American International School, libraries and Internet cafes.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/126388

In those last two stories, did you notice a target 'inclination' there?

I did.

Destroy schools.
Destroy libraries.
Destroy Internet cafes [with RPG's].
Throw acid in the faces of [un-submissive] women.

AND of course,
......'Palestinian' children will throw rocks at Israeli tanks [which makes for great PR images, eh?],
......and ISLAMISTS ceaselessly encourage 'Palestinian' children to become suicide bombers, at Israeli army checkpoints.

2 Q's.
....why don't the Palestinian 'freedom fighters' use the RPG's against the Israeli tanks???
....and do the Palestinian 'freedom fighters' feel any trepidation, when they are [fearlessly] throwing acid in the faces of young women?

As i said, the EU and the West' are dupes - to ISLAMIC 'victim' propaganda.

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« Last Edit: Nov 21^st, 2008 at 9:07am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Израиль Навсегда Posts: 7303 Gender:	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #120 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 8:28am Yadda wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 7:57am: ... Yes. Muslim lies are easily exposed.
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Yadda

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #121 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 8:36am

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 5:08pm:

Quote:

The motivation of Muslims - and not just palestinian Arabs - is motivated by religion. The palestinian refugees are kept in squalor by their muslim brethren in order to maintain the hostility towards israel. Why?

this is very untrue- where do you get this from?

Dec. 2, 2006
Gaza women warned of immodesty
A....group calling itself the Just Swords of Islam issued a warning to Palestinian women in the Gaza Strip over the weekend that they must wear the hijab or face being targeted by the group's members.
.....The group said its followers last week threw acid at the face of a young woman who was dressed "immodestly" in the center of Gaza City.
.....the group also claimed responsibility for attacks on 12 Internet cafes over the past few days.
....."We will have no mercy on any woman who violates the traditions of Islam and who also hang out in Internet cafes."
ACCORDING TO THE GROUP, ITS MEMBERS USED ROCKET-PROPELLED GRENADES to attack 12 Internet cafes and a number of music shops in different parts of the Gaza Strip.
It said the places were targeted because they were "distracting an entire generation of Palestinians from their duty to worship [Allah] and jihad....
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1164881802888&pagename=JPost%2FJPArti...

Gaybriel,

When the Israelis seek to defend themselves from relentless terrorist attacks [by ISLAMISTS], they are child killers [when potential co-combatants are killed, sometimes even mistakenly].

But when ISLAMISTS target and murder fellow muslims [those who do not 'submit', or do not fully embrace the 'Cause of Allah'], they, are freedom fighters ???

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #122 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 10:11am

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 7:46pm:

Yeh it's the Palestinians fault. They shouldn't have gone to Lithuania, Poland, Russia and USA and kick all those poor Jews out of their homes and herd them into refugee camps, so they could take them for their greedy selves....

Soren, Answer me how you'd respond to foreigners immigrating in massive waves, saturating the population of Australia within a few shorts decades, making statements they want to kick the current Australians out into surrounding nations (like NZ or PNG)??? Would you welcome them? Or would you fight and resist them until you die? I already know your answer, as you've expressed it regarding Muslims many times already.

So don't ask anything less of the Palestinians. They are merely resisting a foreign entity that quite clearly from the time they started immigrating made it quite clear they were coming to dispossess the Palestinians, who were a 98% majority of the land, when the Zionist 'project' began.

Remember Muslims are about 2% of Australia today... How would you respond if we decided to do that?

There is israel only because of international law. There were no invading jewish armies.
Originally the whole area was designated by the League of Nations for a future israel, including today's Jordan. Churchill redrew the map in 1922 to exempt Trans-Jordan - and there's your Palestine, there's your two state solution, in place since 1922.

And the significant migration of jews started after the British Mandata and the plan for a future israel were in place, that is, after WWI.

The west bank (and gaza until recently) is not occupied illegally by Israel and under international law it has every right to allow settlements there. Why? The West Bank (and East Jerusalem for that matter) is not Arab land. It was part of the British mandata until 1948 when the arabs occupied it by... er... launching a war. Under international law Israel has every right to hold these territories (which never formed part of a sovereign state since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire) until attacks on it originating from these territories cease. That is international law, not Israeli law. Was it Ok for Jordan to occupy the west bank from 1948 to 1967?

Jewish settlement in these areas are not illegal also because they are not forced settlements. It would be illegal to forcibly settle jews in these areas but the settlers are not forced to live there by Israel. SO they are not illegal. Unadvisable, perhaps, but not illegal.

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #123 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 10:59am

Soren wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 10:11am:

There is israel only because of international law. There were no invading jewish armies.
Originally the whole area was designated by the League of Nations for a future israel, [b]including today's Jordan. Churchill redrew the map in 1922 to exempt Trans-Jordan - and there's your Palestine, there's your two state solution, in place since 1922.[/b]

That is true, and it is a good point soren.

And one which is totally ignored by the mainstream media, when this issue is discussed.

The TRUTH is that, those ppl in Gazza, and in Samaria [WB] are the illegal occupiers and invaders of Israeli land, as part of an ISLAMIC war of [re]conquest.

Under international conventions, Jordan was the designated 'homeland' of the 'Palestinian' ppl.

Why don't the 'palestinians' go there, live in peace with their neighbours, and build a nation which they could be proud of?

++++++

Arabs / muslims have refused to accept these post war determinations, of the allocation of the lands the defunct Ottoman Empire territories, territories which previously belonged to non-muslim cultures, and were then subsumed within an ISLAMIC empire, after invasion.

And today, since 1948, muslims have steadfastly declared that the land of Israel, belongs to them [exclusively].

And that it must now again, be reabsorbed into their own ISLAMIC lands, through a religious war of [re]conquest.

Yet successive wars against Israel, have failed to deliver the desired outcome of Arabs / muslims.

To date, Israel has prevailed in each conflict.

Throughout human history, wars have always been regarded as a huge "Reset button" on all property rights, for nations and individuals.

Yet the muslims of the region have steadfastly insisted,
.....they will not make peace with their neighbour.

If this conflict against Israel is justified, why doesn't Turkey demand its Ottoman Empire territories back???

Q.
Why doesn't Turkey go to war with Lebanon, Syria and Jordan, to reclaim its land???

A.
....coz they got over it!

But ISLAMISTS,
......don't get over, and NEVER make peace with those who are resistant to THEIR will.

The Arab / 'Palestinian' conflict with Israel, has been *portrayed* by 'Palestinians' as 'a fight for our land'.

It is not.

It is a conflict between ISLAM and those unbelievers in the area [the Israelis].

'Judea', Samaria, and Gaza, are the ancient homelands of the Jewish people.

The word 'Judea' ring a bell?

What is the root of that word?

Dead Sea scrolls, etc?

The Jewish people have as much claim on 'Palestine' as anyone.
.....in my opinion.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Gaybriel

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #124 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 11:15am

Grendel wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 7:26am:

There was no such think as a palestianian till the mandate was created gaybriel. how many times do I have to post historical facts on this site before all you Muslims and Muslim sympathisers stop spouting nonsense. Do I have to post it to you all individually? At least Abu has changed his rhetoric a bit dsince last time I had to correct him.

no but there were those who rightfully inhabited the land who are now referred to as 'Palestinians', hence my use of the term

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #125 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 11:37am Well then the jews that also inhabited the land are also palestinians then eh? Oh and BTW a fact I seem to have to keep mentioning... the Arabs already hold 75% of the mandate... it is called Jordan.
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tallowood

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #126 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 11:53am

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 11:15am:

Grendel wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 7:26am:

There was no such think as a palestianian till the mandate was created gaybriel. how many times do I have to post historical facts on this site before all you Muslims and Muslim sympathisers stop spouting nonsense. Do I have to post it to you all individually? At least Abu has changed his rhetoric a bit dsince last time I had to correct him.

no but there were those who rightfully inhabited the land who are now referred to as 'Palestinians', hence my use of the term

I would like to know what do you mean by "rightfully". Does it refer to "right of conquest" at some previous time?

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #127 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 12:42pm

ALL the palestinians could have lived peacefully in Israel.

when the Israeli government took power some palestinian Arabs opposed the jews others supported Israel.

Caena and Nazareth are two towns i can think of off the top of my head which support a Jewish state in Israel. they have the same rights as all other Israelis with even their own arab representatives in israels government.

it seems it was the fact that some palestinians resisted jewish sovereignty that they forfeited their land.

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Gaybriel

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #128 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 1:29pm

Grendel wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 11:37am:

Well then the jews that also inhabited the land are also palestinians then eh?

that's correct. like I keep saying. this isn't about religion

Quote:

Oh and BTW a fact I seem to have to keep mentioning... the Arabs already hold 75% of the mandate... it is called Jordan.

I'll reply to this later

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tallowood

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #129 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 1:46pm

tallowood wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 11:53am:

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 11:15am:

Grendel wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 7:26am:

There was no such think as a palestianian till the mandate was created gaybriel. how many times do I have to post historical facts on this site before all you Muslims and Muslim sympathisers stop spouting nonsense. Do I have to post it to you all individually? At least Abu has changed his rhetoric a bit dsince last time I had to correct him.

no but there were those who rightfully inhabited the land who are now referred to as 'Palestinians', hence my use of the term

I would like to know what do you mean by "rightfully". Does it refer to "right of conquest" at some previous time?

So now Israelis rightfully inhibit the land and since Palestinians waged an unjustified war on sovereign state Palestinians justly get treated as enemies ... get shot etc. That what war is about. If Palestinians want to be treated differently they should declare end of war and behave accordingly. Happy end of the story.

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Yadda

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #130 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 2:36pm

tallowood wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 1:46pm:

So now Israelis rightfully inhibit the land and since Palestinians waged an unjustified war on sovereign state Palestinians justly get treated as enemies ... get shot etc. That what war is about. If Palestinians want to be treated differently they should declare end of war and behave accordingly. Happy end of the story.

tallowood,

Your logic makes sense to me.

But i think we are in the minority.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #131 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 2:56pm

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 1:29pm:

[quote author=grendel link=1229690857/120#125 date=1227231439]
this isn't about religion

For you, me, the jews - correct. For the muslims - incorrect

Palestinian Authority religious leaders and Hamas have for years been presenting their conflict with Israel as part of an unbroken religious war, which Allah is waging against Jews - a conflict whose climax will be the extermination of the world's Jews.

Previously reported examples of numerous Palestinian Authority religious and academic leaders presenting the war against Israel as a religious war.
"We the Palestinian nation, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard of the war against the Jews until resurrection as the prophet Muhammad said: 'Resurrection will not arrive until you will fight the Jews and kill them.' We the Palestinians are the vanguard in this issue and in this campaign whether or not we want this." [Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Sharia [Islamic Law] Rulings Council and Rector of Advanced Studies, Islamic University PA TV, July 28, 2000].
And see Joel Richardson's book (I posted the lik earlier.)
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=_lyXZu3d3OcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=joel+ric...

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Soren

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Re: 13 year old islamic girl
Reply #132 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 10:46am

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 2:25pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 2:02pm:

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:51pm:

tallowood wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 1:48pm:

A GIRL believed to be just 13 has detonated an explosives belt and blown herself up at a checkpoint ...
http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6343242,00.jpg

This is Iraq, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't we talking about Palestine.

Islam has no borders.

Only when its convenient for you and your justification of the murder of children...eh Soren?

Iraqi bomber was mentally disabled woman
Published: Nov. 24, 2008 at 9:42

BAGHDAD, Nov. 24 (UPI) -- One of two bombers who struck in Baghdad Monday was a mentally disabled woman whose explosives were detonated by remote control, officials said.

Brig. Gen. Qassim Atta, an Iraqi military spokesman, told CNN the incident outside the city's Green Zone was the latest in a series of terrorist bombings in which woman have been used to launch attacks.

At least 18 people, including 15 women, died in the two Monday attacks, officials said.

In the Green Zone incident, two women -- one reportedly pregnant -- were among the five victims when an explosives vest strapped to the mentally disabled woman detonated in a line of workers waiting to be searched at a checkpoint, The Times of London reported.

The Green Zone, also known as the International Zone, houses Iraqi government offices and the headquarters of U.S. forces in Iraq.

In an earlier explosion, 13 women died on a bus taking them to work at the Iraqi Trade Ministry building when the vehicle was blasted by a so-called sticky bomb attached to its side, the newspaper said.

A U.S. military spokesman said that two Iraqi army members and three civilians were among the dead in the second attack.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/24/Iraqi_bomber_was_mentally_disabled_woman/...

And this sort of thing happens every day. Every day. For years and years and years.
But somehow Islam has nothing to do with it.
There were no joooos in sight. Or Americans. Just Muslims. Muslim women. In a Muslim country.

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Yadda

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Re: 13 year old islamic girl
Reply #133 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 2:17pm

Soren wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 10:46am:

Iraqi bomber was mentally disabled woman
Published: Nov. 24, 2008 at 9:42
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/24/Iraqi_bomber_was_mentally_disabled_woman/...

And this sort of thing happens every day. Every day. For years and years and years.
But somehow Islam has nothing to do with it.
There were no joooos in sight. Or Americans. Just Muslims. Muslim women. In a Muslim country.

Matthew 24:10
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Matthew 24:37
....as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Genesis 6:11
.....and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah.....the earth is filled with violence through them....

I guess that these things have been going on since the time of Cain and Abel?

Brothers, slaying brothers.

+++++

On blaming those jooos....

soren,

This story may surprise you.

I know it did me.

A rational person from Kuwait....

A 'crucible' for our faults
By Ali Ahmad Al-Baghli
Former Kuwaiti Oil Minister
........I felt dejected when I realized that 60 years have gone by and nothing happened during the glorious days. Other parts of the world reached the pinnacle of development, particularly in the 20th and 21st centuries, but the Arabs accomplished nothing because we all focused on blaming each other for the negative things happening around us. We all believed some parties are conniving against us.
........We often blame Israel for our failure to achieve development. Let us then imagine that Israel is not in the region. Would we then be like Malaysia, Indonesia, India or Turkey? I think no. It's so absurd to imagine something like this, not because of Israel but because of our tendency to oppose development or anything that is new.
........if there was no Israel for us to use as a scapegoat, we would invent someone else to blame for our problems.
http://www.canadiancoalition.com/forum/messages/30853.shtml

I wonder if this person is still breathing God's air???

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Re: 13 year old islamic girl
Reply #134 - Nov 25^th, 2008 at 8:00pm

Yadda wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 2:17pm:

...
A rational person from Kuwait....

A 'crucible' for our faults
By Ali Ahmad Al-Baghli
Former Kuwaiti Oil Minister
........I felt dejected when I realized that 60 years have gone by and nothing happened during the glorious days. Other parts of the world reached the pinnacle of development, particularly in the 20th and 21st centuries, but the Arabs accomplished nothing because we all focused on blaming each other for the negative things happening around us. We all believed some parties are conniving against us.
........We often blame Israel for our failure to achieve development. Let us then imagine that Israel is not in the region. Would we then be like Malaysia, Indonesia, India or Turkey? I think no. It's so absurd to imagine something like this, not because of Israel but because of our tendency to oppose development or anything that is new.
........if there was no Israel for us to use as a scapegoat, we would invent someone else to blame for our problems.
http://www.canadiancoalition.com/forum/messages/30853.shtml

I wonder if this person is still breathing God's air???

Good post and it shows that there are rational people amongst Muslims.

BTW, Ali Ahmad Al-Baghli was still there last Sunday.

Kuwait recently hosted the third conference of Global Organization for Parliamentarians Against Corruption

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41378 Gender:	Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians Reply #135 - Nov 26^th, 2008 at 9:04am tallow - yes, it shows there are still rational muslims arouind. unfortunately the irrational ones overwhelm them easily. ones that ban yoga or moderate forums on the net for example.
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Yadda

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Re: 13 year old islamic girl
Reply #136 - Nov 26^th, 2008 at 11:35am

tallowood wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 8:00pm:

Yadda wrote on Nov 25^th, 2008 at 2:17pm:

A 'crucible' for our faults
By Ali Ahmad Al-Baghli
Former Kuwaiti Oil Minister
........We often blame Israel for.....our problems.
http://www.canadiancoalition.com/forum/messages/30853.shtml

Good post and it shows that there are rational people amongst Muslims.
[/url]

tallowood,

Is Ali Ahmad Al-Baghli, the 'exception which proves the rule'???
Shocked

I commend Ali Ahmad Al-Baghli, for his willingness to speak frankly to 'his community' in this way.

He is indeed, a brave person.

Unfortunately within many muslims communities, when such ppl [like this man] speak an uncomfortable truth, based on rational argument, and not accepted dogma,
......often they are killed for their efforts to conduct such an open examination of issues.

And those who kill them [in my view], purposely use use [such] terror, to subdue and quieten others, who may also otherwise, be encouraged to speak out.

And in that way, the stifling status quo of ISLAMIC supremacy within muslim society, is maintained.....

ISLAM, good.
Everyone else, bad.

As most of us can agree, ISLAMIC 'pluralism' goes....

...."Shut up! .....ISLAM is correct, you are wrong!"

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #137 - Dec 1^st, 2008 at 12:28pm

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 5:31pm:

it's amazing that not one person here has condemned the behaviour of the people in the videos

I doubt half of you even watched them

Gaybriel, a YOUTUBE video, one for you,

Extremism Exposed - Israeli treatment of Palestinians

An Australian woman in 'Palestine', through being there, and seeing [1st hand] what is really happening, 'the penny drops'.

"It is a 'show an tell'....the first thing we were shown were photographs of men's bodies.....we were told that this is from torture from the Israelis....but later [something different was revealed to her].....And i began to understand......"

Through listening and watching, she begins to understand the horror, which is being perpetrated upon ppl, children, in the name of ISLAM.

Australian in Palestine account of children suicide bombers
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1b2QhQQpHck

+++++

2008-12-03

The YOUTUBE 'tag' for this video, which i previously missed.....

"Daryl Jones is an australian volunteer aid worker duped by Palestinian propaganda propaganda to come to their aid but later realized that they were engaged in a bloodlust game to destroy the lives of children. She recounts how Palestinians displayed photos of bodies, "gouged and pitted, torn. We were told this is from torture from the Israelis." Later, when she saw a Palestinian child blow up in front of her face, she realized that the ripped apart bodies were the result of human booby traps that the Palestinians used against the Israelis. She was featured in "The Road to Jenin" film by French director Pierre Rehov. tags: hezbollywood pallywood children islam muslim palestine israel lebanon hamas hezbollah terror terrorism victimhood (less)"
http://au.youtube.com/results?search_query=australian+palestine&search_type=#i

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Reply #138 - Dec 8^th, 2008 at 3:35pm

Jews use another innocent muslim 15 year old as potential human bomb.

Er.... Wait!. It's not the jews.

The Girl Turned Into A Human Bomb

BAGHDAD, Dec. 5, 2008

(CBS) Rania al Ambaki was handcuffed to a gate at an Iraq security checkpoint. She was a human bomb, CBS News correspondent Elizabeth Palmer reports.

Suspicious officers immobilized her, jammed cell phone signals that could detonate the explosives, then carefully removed her suicide vest.

She turned out to be just 15 years old, and her story is an increasingly common one.

She comes from Baquba, an al Qaeda hot spot just north of Baghdad. It's a recruiting ground for women suicide bombers who are responsible for much of the recent carnage in story=3220766>Iraq.

Last year, there were eight women bombers. So far this year, there have been 35. A CBS News crew traveled to Baquba to meet Rania in jail.

"I now thank God that I didn't get blown up," she said through a translator.

Rania told police she had no idea the vest was a bomb. Family members, including her husband, she said, had helped her put it on.

Police think they may have drugged her, and meant to blow her up by remote control.

Rania said through a translator: "They told me that it was a kind of medical vest for back pain."

Gen. Abdul Kareem Qalaf helped interrogate Rania. He said: "She has a low IQ and is a vulnerable teenage girl."

Why does there suddenly seem to be so many women suicide bombers?

Qalaf said through a translator: "Al Qaeda uses these people - the mentally ill, children and very young women. This shows al Qaeda is failing."

Al Qaeda is using women bombers - because it works. In a conservative Muslim society, they're less likely to be searched, and there's a shortage of female security agents to do the job.

As for Rania, she lived to tell a tale that helped police arrest her husband. But her aunt, the suspected ringleader, is still on the run. She's one of a new breed of Iraqi women turned into key players in the ruthless business of terrorism.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/05/eveningnews/main4651268.shtml?source=m...

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