Australian Politics Forum - Could Christianity be Evil?

muso

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Re: Could Christianity be Evil?
Reply #30 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 2:37pm

locutius wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 4:58pm:

Interesting Muso. COULD it be evil? Hmm I think the question is wide enough that good arguments in the affirmative could be established, however I also think that most of those arguments will overlap with many religions. But this could all up be an interesting exercise.

You avoided the obvious and far easier question of whether Christians have been evil. And you could ask that question on as small or large a scale as you want. It also would not have required a single reference to Text but history.

Anyway I'm going to have a quick dig into Nietzsche to remind me of what he thought. I don't agree with everything he says but a lot mirrors things I have considered and thought they weren't completely baseless. Then we have Alister Crowley and Anton LaVey. But I take these two with very little seriousness, but they had a view point.

I left it as a question. My own view is that neither Christianity nor Islam are evil, but that they are both benevolent paradigms for life and inspiration.

You're right though - if you remove the people from the equation, then you don't have a religion, so we need to consider how their followers have behaved through the ages.

It all comes down to interpretation. The most fanatical misanthrope and the most compassionate philanthrope will both find words to inspire in Islamic and Christian Scripture alike.

To one, 'merciful' would mean a quick death with a sharp saif; to the other, it means administering the full spectrum of compassion and decency.

Just tell me what you want to do (Good or Evil) and I'll find appropriate texts from both the Bible and the Qu'ran to back you up.

Should we judge a religion on the basis of individual misinterpretation? I don't think so.

Alistair Crowley came fairly close to pure evil. He loosely followed Christian mythology, albeit from the wrong side Tongue

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« Last Edit: Nov 20^th, 2008 at 2:45pm by muso »

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locutius

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Re: Could Christianity be Evil?
Reply #31 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 2:58pm

To one, 'merciful' would mean a quick death with a sharp saif; to the other, it means administering the full spectrum of compassion and decency.

Just tell me what you want to do (Good or Evil) and I'll find appropriate texts from both the Bible and the Qu'ran to back you up

Mate, that was very well put indeed. I wish I had said it. I agree completely.

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I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives.

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Lestat

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Re: Could Christianity be Evil?
Reply #32 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 3:35pm

If you want to see evil perhaps you should read the views of some posters justifying the murder of a Palestinian 13 y.o girl, who was in her uniform when shot, in clear daylight..her body riddled with 14 bullets no less.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1229690857/9

Interesting question...what is evil? I would of thought that justify the murder of an innocent girl would be getting awfully close to evil in anyones language.

I can only imagine the outrage that would be shown if either myself or Abu had said these things.

I don't know...but maybe if people started voicing their opposition to the evils occuring in their very own backyards (this forum) before what people may or may not be doing in some distant country at the other end of the world, then perhaps we can move onto bigger fish like 'religon'.

Locuitus...care to comment, or is it only 'muslim deception' which riles you up?

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locutius

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Re: Could Christianity be Evil?
Reply #33 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 3:50pm

What deception are you talking about Lestat?

I've been pretty consistant when I say I hold deception by anyone in extremely low regard, not just "Muslim deception". Start a post on Deception in communication and I will try to explain my position and answer any questions you have.

There are actually many topics that I don't open because sometimes the title of the topic suggests that it will end up in the same old tit-for-tat that you seem to find entertaining but I don't. Would I be correct to assume that nothing new has been said there. I'll have a look when time allows.

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I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road and not be questioned about their motives.

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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: Could Christianity be Evil? Reply #34 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:35pm Yadda- that's completely off topic. My quotes refute yours and explain the context of your quotes. Did you read the analyses I posted?
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muso

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Re: Could Christianity be Evil?
Reply #35 - Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:06pm

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:35pm:

Yadda- that's completely off topic. My quotes refute yours and explain the context of your quotes.

Did you read the analyses I posted?

We can always hope. There is a lot of interfaith dialog going on in Australia, although not on this forum. I'd classify that more as interfaith bickering.

If we can actually read each others' replies and try to see it from the other's point of view without denouncing each other using even more stereotypes, maybe we'll start to close the gap.

Take a page out of the book of Sheik Ali Salah Mohammed Hussein, a Sufi Sheik from Palestine who has taken on the task of brokering peace between Palestine and Israel.

I heard him recently on Radio National. He made the point that it's not about winning points all the time. Sometimes you win by giving more than the other side. To do so is a sign of strength and security.

Quote:

We are the children of Abraham, and we all have a Holy Task. We know the immense love of Abraham, and we rejoice in the peace that we spread through the world.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Could Christianity be Evil? Reply #36 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 7:19am Should I repost my reply so you can actually attempt to refute it or make apologies for Islam again gaybriel?
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Yadda

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Re: Could Christianity be Evil?
Reply #37 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 9:54am

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:35pm:

Yadda- that's completely off topic. My quotes refute yours and explain the context of your quotes.

Did you read the analyses I posted?

I am sorry Gaybriel,
.....but we will have to agree to disagree.

Quote:

".....Islam teaches us that we should be friendly to all people."

http://www.pakistanlink.com/religion/97/re12-12-97.html

I regard this assertion, as propaganda, an outright lie, and attempted deception.

From the same source.....
Quote:

".....Islam teaches us that we should deal even with our enemies with justice and fairness."

.....'justice and fairness'

LIES, LIES, LIES.

BARE FACED LIES.

Gaybriel,

Unlike the commands in the Bible, towards the treatment of strangers [unbelievers], which i have outlined here....

"Are muslims God's people?"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1226445495/0#0

.....Sharia mandates a separate, unequal justice, in the treatment of non-muslims and muslims, in all Sharia jurisdictions.

Gaybriel,

THIS IS A FACT,
......WHETHER YOU WILL ACKNOWLEDGE IT OR NOT.

There is no equality of [legal or political] rights, for non-muslims, under Sharia law.

And this circumstance is *mandated* within ISLAM, towards non-muslims, in all Sharia jurisdictions.

Two examples from ISLAMIC texts....

......"The legal regulations of Diya (Blood-money) and the (ransom for) releasing of the captives,
and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for killing a Kafir (disbeliever)."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/083.sbt.html#009.0...

"What is written in this paper?"......
".......the judgment that no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.0...

Here [above], effectively, we are told that muslims must not be punished for killing non-believers.

Gaybriel,

Sharia mandates legal and political apartheid, where muslims [the 'innocent'] and non-muslims [those 'guilty' of unbelief] MUST BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY.

Gaybriel,

ISLAM......is a false religion, for a false people.

Please open your eyes.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Classic Liberal

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Re: Could Christianity be Evil?
Reply #38 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 12:32pm

there is only one perfect being, God.

god made humans who are in themselves imperfect, this imperfection allows for evil (evil is the absence of God).

thus EVERY human is not immune from sin.

the only things that separates christianity from anyone else is the aspiration to love God and thus do what god wants.

The catholic church have made many mistakes, but at least they have apologized for them and tried to make ammends

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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: Could Christianity be Evil? Reply #39 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 1:30pm Grendel wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 7:19am: Should I repost my reply so you can actually attempt to refute it or make apologies for Islam again gaybriel? the last thing I can see from you is "come out come out wherever you are". if I'm missing a post then yes please bring it to my attention
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Could Christianity be Evil? Reply #40 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 1:34pm Oh yeah the larger one above it
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muso

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Re: Could Christianity be Evil?
Reply #41 - Nov 21^st, 2008 at 1:45pm

Classic Liberal wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 12:32pm:

The catholic church have made many mistakes, but at least they have apologized for them and tried to make ammends

That's why I've always had a soft spot for the Catholic Church. I even married a Catholic and I bought her some new rosary beads at the Vatican. Human beings, including priests are not perfect.

John Paul II did a great deal of good work with other faiths. The Catholic Church have at least tried to bridge the gap. As a result of his work, the Catholic religion is now one of the more tolerant and ecumenical of world religions. I still don't agree with them on condoms, especially in Africa, but that policy tends to be ignored where it matters.

Some of the Muslims on here are also trying very hard. Gaybriel - your efforts here are appreciated.

The Qu'ran has a similar passage which I quoted earlier which basically echoes the concept that only God knows.

As for my own interpretation, I read that as "there are some things that we'll never know".

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Gaybriel

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Re: Could Christianity be Evil?
Reply #42 - Nov 22^nd, 2008 at 1:34pm

Grendel wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 1:34pm:

Oh yeah the larger one above it Roll Eyes

I already answered that with the posts I gave re muslim and non-muslim friendship.

the quotes you gave suggest both friendliness and actually being friends.

it's true that there are quotes that suggest one should not seek intimacy with non-muslims if they are going to draw you away from your religion. These statements are always qualified, but if you want to take it as a blanket statement then so be it.

I have heard similar things from Christian's btw. I once had a christian friend of mine call me and tell me she couldn't be friends with me anymore because she had been advised by her church not to hang out with non-Christians because they may lead her into temptation.

I said to her what I would say to any muslim who would say the same to me- that I believe the test of a person is someone who resists temptation. Sure, if something will draw you away from your religion then you have to do what you think is right and avoid it- but in my opinion that makes that person the weak one. The problem is with their strength and resolve- not with me.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Could Christianity be Evil? Reply #43 - Nov 22^nd, 2008 at 2:54pm You have severe comprehension problems when it comes to things Muslim don't you. Want me to post it one more time for you or would that be a waste of my time? I'm thinking it would be the latter.
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