muso- I have had exactly the same experience here. I am often greeted with a "salam" or "salam alaikum", once the person I am talking to knows I'm comfortable with it.

only some have not said it until I've indicated I'm comfortable with the greeting.

and btw Yadda- they aren't apostates, they're practising muslims. I have a lecture from a sheikh about returning the greeting of salams to non-muslims and how all muslims should do it. I'll post it up here.

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:31am:


Thanks Gaybriel. See? I told Yadda he should find a nice girl (no offense)

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:32am:






Gaybriel,

Why can't i convince you of the obvious?


"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them." [i.e. is an unbeliever]
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.051

[O you who believe! Take not for patrons unbelievers rather than Believers. Do you wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?] (An-Nisaa’ 4:144)

[O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.] (Al-Ma’dah 5: 51)

Check out this answer and remember tha we are dealing with pedants of the highest order here.

Quote:


I note that the Koran says KIND and JUST not "friendly"...  but here he states quite clearly that Muslims be "friendly" as opposed to being real friends whereas Non-Muslims can consider themselves real friends to Muslims.  I can be friendly to someone and not be a FRIEND of someone.  Ah the pedants...  how disingenuous of them.

In relation to other religions a scholar offers...  "This verse doesn't mean the same as you seemed to understand, because the religion is Islam, and whoever come to Allah on the day of Judgment with any religion rather than Islam won't be accepted, because Islam is the only religion which worship Allah (Subhanao wa Taala) without accompanying any other beside Him, because no one ever should be accompanied with Allah in worship."

From "Muslim Teens" in case you didn't believe me...  confirmation..

Quote:

Interesting Muso. COULD it be evil? Hmm I think the question is wide enough that good arguments in the affirmative could be established, however I also think that most of those arguments will overlap with many religions. But this could all up be an interesting exercise.

You avoided the obvious and far easier question of whether Christians have been evil. And you could ask that question on as small or large a scale as you want. It also would not have required a single reference to Text but history.

Anyway I'm going to have a quick dig into Nietzsche to remind me of what he thought. I don't agree with everything he says but a lot mirrors things I have considered and thought they weren't completely baseless. Then we have Alister Crowley and Anton LaVey. But I take these two with very little seriousness, but they had a view point.

Does Islam really order Muslims to not take Jews, Christians and other non-Muslims as friends?

Let us look at the Noble Verses that address this issue:

"O ye who believe!  Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other.  And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them.   Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.  (The Noble Quran, 5:51)"

"O ye who believe!  Take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport - whether among those who received the Scripture (i.e., the Bible) before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have Faith (indeed).  (The Noble Quran, 5:57)"

"Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay,- all honour is with God.  (The Noble Quran, 4:139)"

"O ye who believe! Turn not (for friendship) To people on whom Is the Wrath of Allah.  Of the Hereafter they are Already in despair, just as The Unbelievers are In despair about those (Buried) in graves.  (The Noble Quran, 60:13)"

In the above Noble Verses, the Arabic word for "friends" is "Awliyaa", which has four literal meanings:  (1) Allies; (2) Friends; and (3) Guardians.  In Noble Verse 60:13, the Arabic word used was "tatawallu", which is derived from the root word "Awliyaa".

"Waliy" which is the singular of "Awliyaa" means "Guardian" as your parents were your guardians when you were a kid.  So as you can see, the Arabic word "Awliyaa" has different literal meanings.

Important Note:  In Noble Verse 60:13 above, Allah Almighty said "la tatawallu qawman", which literally means "take not as allies a tribe (or a community)", which further proves my point that "Awliyaa" in the Noble Verses above is meant for "alliance" and not personal "friendship".  

*** There is nothing wrong with developing a personal friendship with a non-Muslim to help him/her understand and appreciate Islam and to ultimately embrace it if they chose to.  As clearly shown in the introduction above, Allah Almighty commanded all Muslims to treat with kindness and justice all of the good non-Muslims.

The English translation of the Noble Verses above is not accurate, because the use of the word "friends" is really out of context.  The word "Allies" is the correct one, because in all of the Noble Verses above Allah Almighty was talking to the Muslims as a group taking A GROUP OF PEOPLE OR COMMUNITY as "Awliyaa", which fits perfectly with "alliance" than with just personal "friendship" on an individual level.

Another example of inaccurate English translation is the following Noble Verse:

"As to those who turn (For friendship) to Allah, His Messenger, and the (Fellowship of) Believers - it is the Fellowship of Allah that must certainly triumph.  (The Noble Quran, 5:56)"

The Arabic word for "Fellowship" of Allah is "hizb", which literally mean "Alliance", as in "Hizbullah" in Lebanon, which means "The Alliance of Allah".  Hizbullah are the guerrillas and the warriors that fought the Israelis long battles in southern Lebanon and finally were able to drive them out.  Also, the "Northern Alliance" in Afghanistan against the Taliban are called "Hizb Al-shamal".

Hizb is mistranslated as "Fellowship" instead of "Alliance".  Noble Verse 5:56 clearly states that Muslims must form their alliances only with Allah Almighty, Prophet Muhammad and the Believers.   Any alliance other than Allah Almighty is a losing one.  That is exactly what the Alliance with the Jews, Christians and Pagans against fellow Muslims will result in:  Eventual loss at this life, and Severe Punishment at the Day of Judgement.

So the Noble Verses above don't suggest that Muslims can not have personal friends with non-Muslims.  It suggests that Muslim countries are prohibited from forming alliance with the non-Muslims against other Muslims.

Noble 5:57, however, clearly states that Muslims should avoid having personal friendship with anyone (Muslim or non-Muslim) who disrespects Islam and take it for a "mockery".  So the translation of "friends" for "Awliyaa" seem to be a correct and accurate one.

The use of the word "friends" for Noble Verses 5:51 and 4:139 as a translation is ambiguous.  It is not clear from the Noble Verses that Allah Almighty meant for "Awliyaa" to be only personal "friends".  Certainly Noble Verse 5:56 above clearly shows that Allah Almighty is concerned about the Alliance that Muslims commit themselves to, and not personal friendships.

Why did Allah Almighty prohibit making alliance with the Jews and Christians?

When Islam was still fresh and partial, and Muslims were just beginning to understand Islam; Allah Almighty's True Divine Religion, a group of hypocrites from the Jews and Christians tried to deceive the Muslims by pretending to accept Islam and then deserting it later, thus creating the impression that Islam was not a religion worth adopting.

Let us look at Noble Verse 3:72 "A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say:  Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam)."  

Since then, the Muslims became very wary from the Jews and Christians, because they proved themselves to be hypocrites.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/friends.htm

http://www.pakistanlink.com/religion/97/re12-12-97.html