Australian Politics Forum - verifying 'mainstream' Islam

freediver

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verifying 'mainstream' Islam
Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 11:14am

How should non-Muslims go about verifying whether something represents mainstream Islam or a minority view? This seems especially difficult given the lack of heirachy. Does it leave Muslims powerless against those who preach a more extremist, or ultra-conservative interpretation of doctrine? For example, the conservative Muslims in Pakistan believe that a woman must present four witnesses to a rape, otherwise she gets punished for fornication. Others say this is the wrong interpretation. How do we tell which is correct? Does it just come down to a popularity contest?

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abu_rashid

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Re: verifying 'mainstream' Islam
Reply #1 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 12:01pm

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How should non-Muslims go about verifying whether something represents mainstream Islam or a minority view?

How do you normally go about it regarding other religions? For instance, how have you gone about it so far with Judaism?

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For example, the conservative Muslims in Pakistan believe that a woman must present four witnesses to a rape, otherwise she gets punished for fornication.

Do they? Or is this just some sensationalist garbage you read in a tabloid? not saying they don't, but such people can hardly be called conservative Muslims, they'd be more rightly called tribal lunatics.

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How do we tell which is correct? Does it just come down to a popularity contest?

It comes down to which one is based on the Islamic texts. The case you mentioned above is not based on Islamic texts, and therefore is not admissable as an acceptable Islamic legal opinion.

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jordan484

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Re: verifying 'mainstream' Islam
Reply #2 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 12:23pm

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How do you normally go about it regarding other religions? For instance, how have you gone about it so far with Judaism?

Deflection with a question answer, then to another religion.

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Do they? Or is this just some sensationalist garbage you read in a tabloid? not saying they don't, but such people can hardly be called conservative Muslims, they'd be more rightly called tribal lunatics.

Deflection with two question answers, then vague statement.

Why do you find it so difficult to answer questions with clear and concise answers?

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freediver

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Re: verifying 'mainstream' Islam
Reply #3 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 12:26pm

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How do you normally go about it regarding other religions? For instance, how have you gone about it so far with Judaism?

I've actually read the entire bible, front to back, including the old testament. As far as I know the old testament 'is' Judaism. I'm also reading the bagavad gita, but that is equally heavy going and I'm not sure if I'll make it. Apart from that, I've never made much of an attempt to 'verify' what a religion is really about, because I'm either disinterested, or I know enough from personal communication to get an idea of both the 'mainstream' and the variation around the mainstream. My interest in Islam however is more political. Islamic doctrine seems to affect global politics a lot more than other religions. It has gotten to the stage where we cannot just ignore it like we can Taoism. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Alternatively, if I wanted to find out Catholic doctrine, I would google the vatican and start from there. Another crucial difference is that other religions seem to be much more forthcoming with information. They seem to want me to find out what it is really about.

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Do they? Or is this just some sensationalist garbage you read in a tabloid? not saying they don't, but such people can hardly be called conservative Muslims, they'd be more rightly called tribal lunatics.

Is there any objective way to demonstrate that you have a better grasp of Islam than they do?

Quote:

It comes down to which one is based on the Islamic texts. The case you mentioned above is not based on Islamic texts, and therefore is not admissable as an acceptable Islamic legal opinion.

The problem with that is that the texts themselves are ambiguous. For example, with the four witnesses to a rape issue, I think the 'evidence' was someone's opinion. That person was some kind of cleric (insert your own term here rather than playing semantics please). So basically, it is a popularity contest in the sense that if everyone ignored that cleric and instead adopted the view of the conservaive Muslims in Pakistan, that would be the 'official' view of Islam. Effectively it is guided by 'human' morality, not by doctrine.

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abu_rashid

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Re: verifying 'mainstream' Islam
Reply #4 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 2:13pm

jordan,

Quote:

Deflection with a question answer, then to another religion.

Thanks for the running commentary, but I think freediver can read what's being said, don't think he needs you to explain each sentence, and how you interpret it.

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Why do you find it so difficult to answer questions with clear and concise answers?

I answer as I wish to answer, if you don't like it, take a hike.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49836 At my desk.	Re: verifying 'mainstream' Islam Reply #5 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 2:20pm How should non-Muslims go about verifying whether something represents mainstream Islam or a minority view?
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abu_rashid

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Re: verifying 'mainstream' Islam
Reply #6 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 2:24pm

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Another crucial difference is that other religions seem to be much more forthcoming with information.

I've been more than forthcoming with information so far freediver, and I think you actually know it. I've spent literally hours on here explaining stuff to you personally. Where I draw the line though is where you begin asking the same questions over and over again, scouring for a 'hidden meaning' and then calling me an outright liar and deceiver if you don't find one.

If you like, I can direct you to some websites, and you can learn to your hearts content about Islam, if you're actually sincere in finding out the truth about it. If however you're just trying to verify your biased theories, I'm not here for that.

Quote:

They seem to want me to find out what it is really about.

As do I, but as I said, you don't really seem genuinely interested in what it's about. You've read some sensationalist articles, you've heard rumours about Islam, and you want to verify them, and if you can't, you want to slander me as a liar and so forth. Nobody in their right mind would continue discussing with you in such an environment. You've burnt your bridges so to speak.

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Is there any objective way to demonstrate that you have a better grasp of Islam than they do?

In Islam textual corroboration is what decides (I did mention this already). As Muhammad (pbuh) said: "Whoever introduces into this affair of ours (ie. Islam) something which is not from it, will have it rejected".

If they make a claim, eg. that a rape victim is to be punished for fornication, then they should provide an evidence for it. If they cannot, then it is to be rejected.

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The problem with that is that the texts themselves are ambiguous.

Have you seen the texts relating to punishment of rapists or providing witnesses?

If not, how can you say they're ambigious?

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For example, with the four witnesses to a rape issue, I think the 'evidence' was someone's opinion.

Was it?

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freediver

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Re: verifying 'mainstream' Islam
Reply #7 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 2:31pm

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Where I draw the line though is where you begin asking the same questions over and over again, scouring for a 'hidden meaning'

Well that's how I found out about sex slaves. If I hadn't 'scoured', I wouldn't have found out. You are reasoanbly forthcoming with the bits you are comfortable with. You are downright deceptive when it comes to bits you don't want me to know about. Every time you claimed to have answered it already, it was a lie.

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abu_rashid

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Re: verifying 'mainstream' Islam
Reply #8 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 2:35pm

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Well that's how I found out about sex slaves. If I hadn't 'scoured', I wouldn't have found out.

Nope, you asked, and I told you. That wasn't scouring.

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You are downright deceptive when it comes to bits you don't want me to know about.

Burning more bridges isn't going to get your questions answered. I didn't answer you about removing pubic hair, I'm quite comortable with that, I just think you questioned it unnecessarily, when it was clearly already answered.

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Every time you claimed to have answered it already, it was a lie.

Since I've not lied to you, I'll just take that as a cue to exit the thread. thanks.

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freediver

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Re: verifying 'mainstream' Islam
Reply #9 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 2:41pm

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Nope, you asked, and I told you. That wasn't scouring.

Correction, I asked many times, and after putting up with a few pages of diversions and jumping through the appropriate hoops, you answered.

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I just think you questioned it unnecessarily, when it was clearly already answered.

But it wasn't clearly answered. Again, you seem to assume your answers as somehow infallible, when there are obvious ambiguities. How can you always be so certain that you have conveyed everything you meant to?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49836 At my desk.	Re: verifying 'mainstream' Islam Reply #10 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 2:41pm And let's not forget the actual topic of this thread: How should non-Muslims go about verifying whether something represents mainstream Islam or a minority view?
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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: verifying 'mainstream' Islam Reply #11 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 2:43pm Quote: How should non-Muslims go about verifying whether something represents mainstream Islam or a minority view? The first step is to have basic respect for the person you ask, and don't call them a liar everytime you don't get the answer you want... ciao.
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freediver

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Re: verifying 'mainstream' Islam
Reply #12 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 2:56pm

The answer I want is the truth. If that's not what I get, what am I supposed to do?

For example I have gone to significant effort to get the wiki article to reflect mainstream Islam. I don't want the sensationalist misrepresentation. I campaigned vigourously against that before you turned up here. That you cannot tell the difference between seeking the truth and seeking to misrepresent Islam demonstrates serious paranoia. Basic respect does not extend to being led up the garden path without complaint. How about you show some respect and give a straight answer?

How should non-Muslims go about verifying whether something represents mainstream Islam or a minority view?

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: verifying 'mainstream' Islam
Reply #13 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 2:58pm

how can one respect someone who does not answer questions?
what is one to think of someone who repeatedly diverts or asks rhetoric questions back?

WHat does it say about that person?
What if they delete questions they dont't like ?
Is that free speech?
Do they merit respect on those grounds ?

do you see how easy it is to ask pointles questions back ?
Are you going to stop it now?

Do you thnk I enjoy this ?

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Modern Classic Right Wing

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49836 At my desk.	Re: verifying 'mainstream' Islam Reply #14 - Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 4:36pm Abu, I have never suggested you should feel obligued to answer all my questions, or even half of them. Is that what the problem is all about? I would much prefer you gave a straight, sincere answer to a few of the tricky ones than a deflection to all of them.
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