13 children brought up with a mother that ignorant and with that mindset...  foolish to think she is in the "minority" in Indonesia.
In such a large population even minority support is a very large number.
How many more?  

Indonesian cleric blames CIA for Bali bombing
October 17, 2008

An Indonesian Islamic cleric linked to the three extremists awaiting execution for the Bali bombings said today the 2002 attack which killed more than 200 people, including 88 Australians, was the work of the CIA.

Abu Bakar Bashir told AFP the US intelligence agency had fired a nuclear missile at the Bali tourist strip from a ship off the coast.

"It has been mentioned as being a micro-nuclear bomb, not a regular bomb... The bomb was made by the CIA, it could be no one else," he said in his house at the Al-Mukmin Islamic boarding school on Indonesia's Java island.

He said the attack was a conspiracy between "America, Australia and the Jews" and the three convicted bombers -- Amrozi, Imam Samudra and Ali Ghufron -- had been framed.

"The bomb Amrozi set off, the first one, at most it shattered glass and didn't wound people, or at most wounded them a little," he said, sitting on the floor and wearing the white clothes and skullcap of a religious man.

Amrozi had been "used by the CIA in coordination with America, Australia and the Jews. The police and the prosecutors aren't brave enough to prove it."

The coordinated October 12, 2002 bomb attacks ripped through packed nightspots on the holiday island's main tourist strip and killed 202 people, mostly foreign visitors including 88 Australians.

Radical Islamist preacher Bashir, aged around 70, served almost 26 months for conspiracy over the attacks before being cleared and released in 2006.

He had been accused of providing spiritual leadership to the Jemaah Islamiyah regional terror group, a claim he denies.

His comments come amid speculation the government is preparing to execute the three bombers by firing squad next week, in line with their 2003 convictions.

The executions have been put off by a series of failed appeals and most recently by the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, raising questions about the government's willingness to kill the men ahead of elections in April.

More than 90 per cent of Indonesia's 234 million people are Muslims, but most follow a more moderate version of Islam.

Dismissing Indonesia's Islamic groups as "Jewish organisations", he said he would split from the Indonesian Council of Mujahedin which he had led and form a new group to push for pure Islamic law.

He said he would launch the new group, Jemaah Ansharut Tauhid ("partisans of the oneness of God"), on October 25.

AFP

Bombs uncovered in Indonesia: police
October 31, 2008 - 10:19PM

Bombs suspected to have been set up for a retaliation attack over the execution of the Bali bombers have been uncovered in a restive Indonesian region, police said.

Two bombs were found on Wednesday and Thursday in Poso, which lies in Central Sulawesi, in areas popular with migrants from the Hindu-majority island of Bali, local police chief Suparni Parto told AFP.

"I think there is a connection between this and the execution of Amrozi and others," Parto said, referring to the three death-row bombers - Amrozi, Mukhlas and Imam Samudra - who are set to be executed as early as Saturday.

Parto refused to specify which group was suspected to be behind the bombs but said there had been protests by Islamist extremists in the region threatening retaliation for the executions.

Around 1,500 police and military personnel have been deployed in Poso to guard against violence in the wake of the executions, Parto said.

The three bombers are awaiting the firing squad over the 2002 bombings of tourist nightspots on Bali that killed 202 people, mainly foreign holidaymakers including 88 Australians.

About 1,000 people were killed in violence between Muslims and Christians in Poso and the surrounding district in 2000-2001.

In 2005 Islamic militants were widely condemned after beheading three teenage Christian schoolgirls in Poso and low-level tensions continue to simmer in the region.

© 2008 AFP

any comment Abu ?

or denial, of covering over, or lying

I'll throw this out there to gaybriel as well, since abu is very picky about what questions he chooses to answer.

This idea has no Islamic basis.

There's nothing in Islam about infidels not praying, and this being a reason to mistreat them.

I'm quite sure this answer will not suffice though, and you'll no doubt have to resort to some other vitriolic argument, but anyway I tried...

The West has created them, by bombing them into their current state of perpetual hatred. The West can deal with them, it's got nothing to do with me, sorry.

I didn't support going and bombing the Middle East into submission just to take all it's oil, so neither am I going to be held accountable for the mess you've made of it, and the hatred that exists there for the West. Like the bear whose fingers are dripping with honey as he drops out of the tree, you can deal with the angry swarm by yourself.

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If you examine these kinds of people properly, instead of just through emotion-charged propaganda, you'll find their main grievances are with Western foreign policy and aggression against Muslims. In Indonesia or anywhere, also I'd suspect they probably consider Australia's intervention in East Timor to be aggressive towards them also. But if you want to persist in your own self righteous ignorance, so be it.

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Really? Never would've guessed, from what I've understood from the propaganda you and others are spewing out, all Muslims support them, and therefore all Muslims are bad... Or do Muslims only oppose them when it suits you?

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I don't believe I've ever stated anything to that effect.

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You think Westerners are half the world's population??? 

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When did we bomb the Indonesians into hatred? You can't blame every Muslim problem on the west. One of these days Muslims will have to take responsibility for their own actions. It is the Muslims in Indonesia who seem intent on bombing the place into hatred.

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It's a shame so many Muslims think that Muslim terrorists are someone else's problem. Muslims can't blame the west for handling these nutters poorly when they won't deal with them themselves.

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Is that supposed to be some kind of justification for blowing up nightclubs? Or for blaming the west for Muslim terrorists?

It seems to me Abu that you think any political problem in the world justifies some nutter who never experienced it and has nothing to do with it blowing up innocent people. No matter how dispicalbe the acts of a criminal, if they call themselves a Muslim you will try to blame the west for their actions. How can you expect rational people to take any of your complaints seriouly when you try to link them to people like Amrozi? There will never be a perfect world, yet it seems that is the only condition under which Muslims will expect other Muslims to stop murdering innocent people. That is the only situtation where Muslims will stop blaming other people for their evil deeds.

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and its about time Muslims all over the world started to adopt a more hands on role in fixing what is a MUSLIM problem.

Abu - noone here thinks all muslims support terrorists.
Thing is seems very few muslims actively oppose them.

The goals/effects of the few terrorists is to severley control all nonmuslims.

rotflmao

On the topic about the Bali-Murderers Aboo said...   Quote:

Then denied he said it.

Oh and btw fd...  OIL is just another furphy... don't let him con you into it.

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Yeh people like Alan Jones and other talkback radio hosts... And they don't represent, nor have influence over average Australians.

sprintcyclist,

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freediver just accused me of justifying it. It's quite obvious he does think average Muslims support and are to blame for it.

freediver,

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Since the Eisenhower days, the US government was aware their foreign policy in the Middle East was causing hatred for them, and they accepted they'd caused the problem. However, they've refused to do anything to reverse it, in fact, their insatiable appetite for Middle Eastern oil has caused them to do it even more than they were back then. As Obama said when McCain was using "Al-Qaeda in Iraq" as his argument, before they went in there, there was no such thing. Their entry into Iraq spawned the existence of that group. And I really can't see how you can be so blind and so naive as to not realise that the further the West pushes into the Muslim world, the more groups like that it spawns... Really, if you had even a little bit of sense about you, you'd wake up and smell the coffee. Let's just hope Obama has the courage to follow through with his earlier convictions and deal with the situation a little more sensibly. Because it's quite obvious the unmoving gung-ho solutions are just not working, yet you still don't seem to have gotten a whiff of the winds of change.

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This is the difference between our outlooks on the situation.

You believe that inidividual Muslims, the general public of Islam, can somehow 'rein in the extremists' and that'll be the solution to the whole problem. The fact is, even the most powerful militaries on earth combined can't seem to stop them, yet you think a few Muslim 'clerics' are going to do it. The fact is, that senior Islamic scholars of Saudi Arabia, some of whom OBL and others used to praise and admire, have publically denounced them and their actions, and have given fatwas to oppose their tactics. Yet you think the local Islamic community group in Bankstown can somehow stop them... Or the oppressed citizens of Muslim countries, who live under dictatorships in which they have absolutely NO say whatsoever in how the countries are governed, let alone on militias that are outside the control of the government.

On the other hand,  I believe that the US government (note: NOT the general public, even though it's a democratic nation, in which the people have at least some say) has created most of these problems, by their foreign policies in the Middle East (something they have admitted to themselves, so don't deny it), and in fact by their own funding and arming of those groups in their early stages, to use them against the USSR (and the Indonesian groups are known to just be 'splinter' groups who were inspired/trained by those created in Afghanistan by the CIA and ISI). And as I pointed out above, we've clearly seen that the more the US pushes, the more of these groups it spawns. The more harder they fight, the more it radicalises people...

Really, is there any doubt which viewpoint is more realistic and logical?

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Your belie and position is just as despicable as those you claim to oppose. You are clearly the supporter of attacking civilians, and you've just made it quite obvious here.

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Muslims are already suffering much worse. A People who've had worse happen to them, can't really be swayed by such arguments. Even in Australia, several mosques have already been burnt and firebombed, dating back to 1990, before OBL was even known by half the world, so this line of reasoning is just a waste of time. Save it.

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We already know you believe in slaughtering innocent civilians, so threatening to do it more, isn't really much of a persuasive argument. It just makes you look like more of a fanatic and inhumane person...

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I believe those state-terrorists that are causing about 95% of the terrorism in the world are the ones who hold the key to the solution of this problem. The 5% are just reactionaries, who do not hold the key to anything. You still don't even recognise what state-terrorism is, and that's why this discussion is futile.

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Obviously I dislike those actions... But I'm not going to sit around and cry about it, and claim the citizens of the US hold the key to this situation. The US government does. Not the US public, and most certainly not the general Muslim public. You are the one who can't realise this.

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Muslims in general are not. Those carrying out acts of violence against innocent civilians are.

freediver wrote on Nov 10^th, 2008 at 11:17am:


and yet we have the prime minister coming out after the cronulla fiasco saying that alan jones is an outstanding broadcaster!!

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Grendel,

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You've provided a glimmer of hope here. I agree with you, the riots in Cronulla had a history that stretches back further than is commonly mentioned in the mass media. Those people in Cronulla didn't just respond out of nowhere, there was actions, by idiot lebs that caused them to boil over.

Now all you need to do is be brave and see that the same kind of history exists in other conflicts as well.

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And another thing, those Lebo thugs who frequent the beaches are groups from Muslim and Christian backgrounds, as well as Assyrians (Christians) and other groups as well. So don't blame it on Islam, it has nothing to do with Islam at all. They are youth who are completely astray from Islam, and that's why they're on beaches hassling girls in bikinis.

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Does anything ever have anything to do with Islam? You use this excuse a lot. Do you really believe it? I know you are not allowed to be critical of Islam, so that pretty much answers everything for me. You won't see the truth, because you're not allowed. Well, maybe you see it, but you certainly can't express it. That must be like living in hell.

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So what does this have to do with the Bali bombings? You still haven't explained the bit about Muslims being immoral, unthinking, unreasoning people, to the extent that invading Iraq causes a nightclub in Bali to be blown up.

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No, that will be the first step.

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Because so many Muslims still support them.

Don't get confused over this issue. Our militaries can stop them. It's just that we cannot yet tolerate the collateral damage it would involve. I guess we are still optimistic that Muslims can sort it out. That's why we are setting up demcoracy in Afghanistan.

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No, it will take the efforts of the community as a whole. If just a few clerics try, then the extremists will just follow some other cleric. It will take a cultural shift away from victimhood and blame.

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.

So why do so many Muslims still support OBL?

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I think Australian Muslims should take greater responsibility for Australian Muslim terrorists, like the ones on trial in Melbourne, as they are in the best position to root them out. I think they should stop making excuses for their fellow Muslims in Indoensia and stop blaming the US for the Bali bombings. I think they should stop feeding the global culture of Muslim victimhood and blame.

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Indoneisa is a democracy. Muslims should stop pretending every Muslim problem is the same and that they can all be blamed on middle eastern dictatorships created by the west. Some are caused by lunatics in Indonesia who follow people like Amrozi, and the mainstream Muslims who pretend the problem is not theirs and can be blamed on the west, like every other problem. Why is it that in discussion Amrozi you can't seem to get your argument out of the middle east?

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Don't lie Abu. You know that is not true. You know that my post was speaking out in opposition to that outcome. I do however, believe that sacrifices must sometimes be made to protect our freedom.

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Yes they can. Scuh arguments should hold more sway, because they'd seen where the path of violence leads.

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Of course I do. The invasion of Afghanistan for example was on a scale far more than 20 times larger than 9/11. Yet preventing 9/11 would have clearly prevented the invasion of Afghanistan. However I do not think it is reasonable to expect the US not to invade Afghanistan in that situation. Most of the world, including Muslims countries, share my view.

Furthermore, the problem seems to be growing, even though the west is trying to set up self government in Iraq and Afghanistan so they can pull out.

Again, none of this has anything to do with Amrozi.

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So why do you bring them up every time a Muslim does something evil?

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You appear to misunderstand democracy.

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You missed the most important question: what do you think is the rational response to such unthinking, unreasoning killing machines? Blame the west while they do their evil deeds?

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Yes you did state such a thing Abu. For example:

Again, this isn't about blame, as you always seem to claim. It's about somebody's actions causing a response in others. They must take responsibility for the actions that've caused this response.

Perhaps you don't realise that you have come as close as possible to saying "The US is to blame for the Bali bombings" without actually saying it.

The London bombings were carried out by 'home grown' terrorists who were indoctrinated into seeing the west as the cause of all of the Muslim community's problems. Australia does not appear to be immune from this, with a group on trial in Melbourne for plotting terrorism. It makes me wonder how much it plays into the hands of local extremist clerics (yes I mean the ones that apparently don't exist....) when even 'moderate' Australian converts like Abu respond to criticism of Amrozi by complaining that the west caused the Bali bombings. No matter how much Abu claims to oppose terrorism, saying that terrorists should not be reigned in until Muslims get what they want, bringing up the west in response to every sinlge evil act done by Muslims, saying that the west causes terrorism and saying that Islamic terrorism is not the problem of Muslims will inevitably play into the hands of terrorist trainers and be seen by gullbile young Muslims as tacit support for terrorism among the broader Muslim community. They would no doubt see the lip service paid by people like Abu to peace the same way we do - as a misleading placation of infidels as part of the propaganda of an ongoing war. You see Abu, that is why it is simply not enough to say "I oppose terrorism" but in the same breath blame it on the west and deny any responsibility for it, while not lifting a finger to rid your religious community of violent extremists. We want Muslims to oppose terrorism in deed, not just in occasional, carefully chosen and heavily qualified words. So does Allah apparently.

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This is entirely about blame. You use it as an excuse for muslims to carry out violent behaviour towards anyone. When do muslims take control and responsibility for their own actions? Muslims have a choice about how to respond, and at this point they respond poorly and it is never justified. You are an excuse maker. And going on your logic, this sort of behaviour will never end, because those who have been wronged by muslims (because they were wronged by someone else) are now entitled to wrong muslims....etc, etc, etc. When does it end? It ends when muslims take responsibility for their own actions, regardless of what may have happened in the past. Can the victims of the bali bombings now go kill a few muslims because of what has happened to them? Is that right or justified? Would you defend their actions based on your own logic?

freediver,

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Please stick with the facts. I said they created them (ie. the movements, the ideology), by both their interference and outright support of tyranny and terrorism against Muslims, and by their actual funding of and arming of those groups who are central to the movements.

Nowhere did I state they caused the Bali bombing.

You can  either return to debating what's been said, or you can continue on, solo, debating your own strawman.

jordan484 wrote on Nov 10^th, 2008 at 3:55pm:



When will you take responsibility for the attrocities and murders committed by your governments in your name?

Oh thats right, never. Cause deep inside you not only support the murder of innocent civilians....you actually encourage it. Your a hypocrite of the highest order Jordan.

You expect others to do what you are unwilling to do yourself. When your fellow pigs cheered over the deaths of innocent children...where was your objection? oh thats right...you actaully defended them, and you have the nerve to ask for us to take responsibility.

How bout you take responsiblity for your actions (or lack of). I have never read any of your post objecting to the deaths of innocent civilians committed by those representing YOU. Why is that. Just yesterday scored of innocent civlians were killed by yet another 'accidental' attack by the US. Where's your outrage? Where's your accepting of this responsibility. You demand others to accept responsibity, yet you are unwilling to do so yourself. Have you ever heard of the pot calling the kettle black?

How bout you stop being such a hypocrite for starters....a small start, but a start nonetheless.

You asked the following questions...

"Can the victims of the bali bombings now go kill a few muslims because of what has happened to them? Is that right or justified? Would you defend their actions based on your own logic? "

The irony of this is that if the victims of the bali bombing did go and kill muslims, I have no doubt whatsoever that you would be the first to defend their actions.

Fact is, not one muslim here as ever defended the murder of innocent civilians, or attempted to justify it. We have continuously condemned this as un-islamic...and I challenge you to find one post that says otherwise. You and your brainwashed bigot crew on the other hand, have cheered the deaths of children, defended your rights to do so (freedom of speech), and continously excused the murders of thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians, committed by western govt's and armies invading muslim lands,  by any means you can find. 'Collateral damage', 'accident', 'extremists fault', 'its war'...I've heard it all....your nothing but an apologist for state sponsored terrorism.....yet when its done by your governments, against innocent muslims,  you are silent, cause lets be honest...you believe the only good muslim is a dead one, and your posts have been reflective of that.

Take a good look in the mirror Jordan. Your just as 'extreme' as those you hate.

Why bother with lestat?


He rants and raves and is full of bile.  there are no facts just ignorance.

Why bother with him at all?

Murder is planes into buildings or blowing up cafes, nightclubs, buses trains.  War is an army invading another country.  There are differences.  As for government doing our bidding...  there were just as many Australians against the war in Iraq as those for it if not more...  so the usual anti-West rant etc is as usual pathetic.  And wrong.

The only people I see backing the killing of innocent civilians are the muslim terrorists and their supporters.

No Australians have targetted Muslims for death particularly "innocent" Muslims, same can't be said of all Muslims though now can it.

Grendel wrote on Nov 10^th, 2008 at 9:29pm:

mod: personal attacks, nothing to do with the topic. contribute constructively or don't contribute at all

Grendel wrote on Nov 10^th, 2008 at 9:29pm:




Grendel, war isn't necessarily invasions. It definately isn't the targetting of civillians though.

War can be insurgency.

Lestat wrote on Nov 11^th, 2008 at 9:57am:


War CRIMES Lestat. War CRIMES.

I'll cease communicating with you for this month. I will continue to comment on you though. Look forward to your correspondence again in December.

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winners of the wars never punish themselves, they're just bad guys who like to loot and plunder.

The Muslims can have him. Makes it easier for us that way.

I haven't done anything wrong.

About time lestat was pulled up for his personal abuse. Take note abu, this is how he should be dealt with. At least gaybriel has the stones

everyone take the personal grievances elsewhere

http://muslimvillage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=47174&hl=

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 11^th, 2008 at 3:18pm:


since when has anyone had to ask about posting links?

people here seem to want to see the opinion of muslims so these links allow that. as well as to read the original article which seems pretty interesting.

if you behaved as you do on here you'd probably be banned way quicker than abu banned you

oh right- I didn't know that!

fd hasn't said anything about it before..hmmm!

anyhoodle- you have the opinion of 3 muslims- hardly representative

freediver wrote on Nov 11^th, 2008 at 5:26pm:


I was just about to do that! mind reader! hehe

Who? Me, or Gaybriel?

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 8^th, 2008 at 9:04pm:


could it conceivably be justifiable to a muslim to kill an infidel who supports a government supposedly committing heinous acts against muslims?

Jordan, unless it's the one I've already posted on, I'm not planning on joining up.

Really...  now how did they do that?

pender - hahahahhaha, good one.
Oh, you weren't joking !!!

with Abu, it is mandatory to give rhetorical questions back