freediver wrote on Nov 10^th, 2008 at 11:17am:


and yet we have the prime minister coming out after the cronulla fiasco saying that alan jones is an outstanding broadcaster!!

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Grendel,

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You've provided a glimmer of hope here. I agree with you, the riots in Cronulla had a history that stretches back further than is commonly mentioned in the mass media. Those people in Cronulla didn't just respond out of nowhere, there was actions, by idiot lebs that caused them to boil over.

Now all you need to do is be brave and see that the same kind of history exists in other conflicts as well.

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And another thing, those Lebo thugs who frequent the beaches are groups from Muslim and Christian backgrounds, as well as Assyrians (Christians) and other groups as well. So don't blame it on Islam, it has nothing to do with Islam at all. They are youth who are completely astray from Islam, and that's why they're on beaches hassling girls in bikinis.

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Does anything ever have anything to do with Islam? You use this excuse a lot. Do you really believe it? I know you are not allowed to be critical of Islam, so that pretty much answers everything for me. You won't see the truth, because you're not allowed. Well, maybe you see it, but you certainly can't express it. That must be like living in hell.

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So what does this have to do with the Bali bombings? You still haven't explained the bit about Muslims being immoral, unthinking, unreasoning people, to the extent that invading Iraq causes a nightclub in Bali to be blown up.

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No, that will be the first step.

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Because so many Muslims still support them.

Don't get confused over this issue. Our militaries can stop them. It's just that we cannot yet tolerate the collateral damage it would involve. I guess we are still optimistic that Muslims can sort it out. That's why we are setting up demcoracy in Afghanistan.

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No, it will take the efforts of the community as a whole. If just a few clerics try, then the extremists will just follow some other cleric. It will take a cultural shift away from victimhood and blame.

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So why do so many Muslims still support OBL?

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I think Australian Muslims should take greater responsibility for Australian Muslim terrorists, like the ones on trial in Melbourne, as they are in the best position to root them out. I think they should stop making excuses for their fellow Muslims in Indoensia and stop blaming the US for the Bali bombings. I think they should stop feeding the global culture of Muslim victimhood and blame.

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Indoneisa is a democracy. Muslims should stop pretending every Muslim problem is the same and that they can all be blamed on middle eastern dictatorships created by the west. Some are caused by lunatics in Indonesia who follow people like Amrozi, and the mainstream Muslims who pretend the problem is not theirs and can be blamed on the west, like every other problem. Why is it that in discussion Amrozi you can't seem to get your argument out of the middle east?

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Don't lie Abu. You know that is not true. You know that my post was speaking out in opposition to that outcome. I do however, believe that sacrifices must sometimes be made to protect our freedom.

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Yes they can. Scuh arguments should hold more sway, because they'd seen where the path of violence leads.

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Of course I do. The invasion of Afghanistan for example was on a scale far more than 20 times larger than 9/11. Yet preventing 9/11 would have clearly prevented the invasion of Afghanistan. However I do not think it is reasonable to expect the US not to invade Afghanistan in that situation. Most of the world, including Muslims countries, share my view.

Furthermore, the problem seems to be growing, even though the west is trying to set up self government in Iraq and Afghanistan so they can pull out.

Again, none of this has anything to do with Amrozi.

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So why do you bring them up every time a Muslim does something evil?

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You appear to misunderstand democracy.

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You missed the most important question: what do you think is the rational response to such unthinking, unreasoning killing machines? Blame the west while they do their evil deeds?

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Yes you did state such a thing Abu. For example:

Again, this isn't about blame, as you always seem to claim. It's about somebody's actions causing a response in others. They must take responsibility for the actions that've caused this response.

Perhaps you don't realise that you have come as close as possible to saying "The US is to blame for the Bali bombings" without actually saying it.

The London bombings were carried out by 'home grown' terrorists who were indoctrinated into seeing the west as the cause of all of the Muslim community's problems. Australia does not appear to be immune from this, with a group on trial in Melbourne for plotting terrorism. It makes me wonder how much it plays into the hands of local extremist clerics (yes I mean the ones that apparently don't exist....) when even 'moderate' Australian converts like Abu respond to criticism of Amrozi by complaining that the west caused the Bali bombings. No matter how much Abu claims to oppose terrorism, saying that terrorists should not be reigned in until Muslims get what they want, bringing up the west in response to every sinlge evil act done by Muslims, saying that the west causes terrorism and saying that Islamic terrorism is not the problem of Muslims will inevitably play into the hands of terrorist trainers and be seen by gullbile young Muslims as tacit support for terrorism among the broader Muslim community. They would no doubt see the lip service paid by people like Abu to peace the same way we do - as a misleading placation of infidels as part of the propaganda of an ongoing war. You see Abu, that is why it is simply not enough to say "I oppose terrorism" but in the same breath blame it on the west and deny any responsibility for it, while not lifting a finger to rid your religious community of violent extremists. We want Muslims to oppose terrorism in deed, not just in occasional, carefully chosen and heavily qualified words. So does Allah apparently.