sprintcyclist,
Quote:Abu - noone here thinks all muslims support terrorists.
freediver just accused me of justifying it. It's quite obvious he does think average Muslims support and are to blame for it.
freediver,
Quote:Abu, you claimed that the US did something wrong, which caused the Bali bombings. Please explain the difference between that and blaming them.
Since the Eisenhower days, the US government was aware their foreign policy in the Middle East was causing hatred for them, and they accepted they'd caused the problem. However, they've refused to do anything to reverse it, in fact, their insatiable appetite for Middle Eastern oil has caused them to do it even more than they were back then. As Obama said when McCain was using "Al-Qaeda in Iraq" as his argument, before they went in there, there was no such thing. Their entry into Iraq spawned the existence of that group. And I really can't see how you can be so blind and so naive as to not realise that the further the West pushes into the Muslim world, the more groups like that it spawns... Really, if you had even a little bit of sense about you, you'd wake up and smell the coffee. Let's just hope Obama has the courage to follow through with his earlier convictions and deal with the situation a little more sensibly. Because it's quite obvious the unmoving gung-ho solutions are just not working, yet you still don't seem to have gotten a whiff of the winds of change.
Quote:I can't believe you are actually referring to the US here. I might for example think that the citizens of New York were treated unjustly on 9/11. Would this justify blowing up a Mosque? Would it mean I can validly demand Muslims take responsibility for the blowing up of a Mosque because some other Muslims destroyed the twin towers?
This is the difference between our outlooks on the situation.
You believe that inidividual Muslims, the general public of Islam, can somehow 'rein in the extremists' and that'll be the solution to the whole problem. The fact is, even the most powerful militaries on earth combined can't seem to stop them, yet you think a few Muslim 'clerics' are going to do it. The fact is, that senior Islamic scholars of Saudi Arabia, some of whom OBL and others used to praise and admire, have publically denounced them and their actions, and have given fatwas to oppose their tactics. Yet you think the local Islamic community group in Bankstown can somehow stop them... Or the oppressed citizens of Muslim countries, who live under dictatorships in which they have absolutely NO say whatsoever in how the countries are governed, let alone on militias that are outside the control of the government.
On the other hand, I believe that the US government (note: NOT the general public, even though it's a democratic nation, in which the people have at least some say) has created most of these problems, by their foreign policies in the Middle East (something they have admitted to themselves, so don't deny it), and in fact by their own funding and arming of those groups in their early stages, to use them against the USSR (and the Indonesian groups are known to just be 'splinter' groups who were inspired/trained by those created in Afghanistan by the CIA and ISI). And as I pointed out above, we've clearly seen that the more the US pushes, the more of these groups it spawns. The more harder they fight, the more it radicalises people...
Really, is there any doubt which viewpoint is more realistic and logical?
Quote:we will slaughter a lot of innocent people along the way.
Your belie and position is just as despicable as those you claim to oppose. You are clearly the supporter of attacking civilians, and you've just made it quite obvious here.
Quote:But it will be the problem of average Muslims when people start blowing up Mosques in retaliation. Do you really want to wait until then?
Muslims are already suffering much worse. A People who've had worse happen to them, can't really be swayed by such arguments. Even in Australia, several mosques have already been burnt and firebombed, dating back to 1990, before OBL was even known by half the world, so this line of reasoning is just a waste of time. Save it.
Quote:but because we won't have to slaughter as many innocent people along the way.
We already know you believe in slaughtering innocent civilians, so threatening to do it more, isn't really much of a persuasive argument. It just makes you look like more of a fanatic and inhumane person...
Quote:You claim they should be silenced, but that someone else should do it.
I believe those state-terrorists that are causing about 95% of the terrorism in the world are the ones who hold the key to the solution of this problem. The 5% are just reactionaries, who do not hold the key to anything. You still don't even recognise what state-terrorism is, and that's why this discussion is futile.
Quote:So you have no problem with the actions of the west?
Obviously I dislike those actions... But I'm not going to sit around and cry about it, and claim the citizens of the US hold the key to this situation. The US government does. Not the US public, and most certainly not the general Muslim public. You are the one who can't realise this.
Quote:You are portraying Muslims as unthinking, unreasoning machines
Muslims in general are not. Those carrying out acts of violence against innocent civilians are.
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