Australian Politics Forum - Bali bombers execution should be televised..

Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register

Forum rules, Recent posts (with text), RSS, Search options, Browse all uploaded images
Home, Articles, Green Tax Shift, Evolution,

Australian Politics Forum › Member Run Boards › Islam › Bali bombers execution should be televised..

(Moderator: polite_gandalf)

‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 7

Bali bombers execution should be televised.. (Read 13979 times)

Amadd

Gold Member

Offline

Mo

Posts: 6217

Re: Bali bombers execution should be televised..
Reply #30 - Oct 29^th, 2008 at 10:50pm

Quote:

Any Muslim who comes to Australia, and swears their oath of allegiance to Australia, and it's head of state, our Queen, and enters into a contract of citizenship with Australia, MUST, by Islamic teaching fulfill that contact and that allegiance. Just sounds like more of the same ignorant scare-mongering arguments.

Well then the quran is [mod: read the guidelines] then isn't it? How could the word of Allah leave such ambiguities?
The quran doesn't state anything about swearing allegiance to another nation as far as I know.
However, it does state that it's OK to deceive the infidel.

Quote:

The famous commentary of Al Khazan (used most extensively in the Mohammedan University called Al Azhar), quotes from Malik ibn Anas, Ahmad ibn Hanbal and others, and gives this interpretation of the verse: "All the deeds of the apostate become null and void in this world and the next. He must be killed. His wife must be separated from him and he has no claims on any inheritance" (page 155, vol. I, Cairo edition). Ath Tha'alibi (788 A.H.), in his commentary on Sura II, verse 214, leaves no doubt that the verse in question, whatever the grammatical construction may be, demands the death of the apostate. (Cf. vol. i, p.167, Algiers edition, 1323).

1 Mizan-ul-Haqq, by Pfander, revised by Tisdall, p.364, London 1910.

« Last Edit: Oct 30^th, 2008 at 10:10am by abu_rashid »

IP Logged

abu_rashid

Gold Member

Offline

Aussie Muslim

Posts: 8353

Re: Bali bombers execution should be televised..
Reply #31 - Oct 30^th, 2008 at 10:04am

Quote:

The quran doesn't state anything about swearing allegiance to another nation as far as I know.

If the Qur'an were the only textual source of Islam, then this statement might actually mean something...

Quote:

However, it does state that it's OK to deceive the infidel

It states no such thing. You couldn't provide any verse to back such a ridiculous claim up, that's why you had to bring some unknown commentary??

Quote:

The famous commentary of Al Khazan (used most extensively in the Mohammedan University called Al Azhar)

Never heard of al Khazan nor his commentary. There's about 2 or 3 main commentaries used in al-Azhar, and none of them is by a fellow named al Khazan.. I tried googling the guy and couldn't find nothing on him. Surely if he's such a famous commentator of the Qur'an, we'd be able to find at least some reference to him??? Ibn Kathir, al-Tabari, Mujahid, Jalalayn etc. are all well known and famous commentaries, if you google them, you'll find them... but al Khazan, can't find a thing, why might that be do you think amadd???

Or is this just evidence you're just cut-pasting nonsense which you've got no idea about?

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 22131
A cat with a view

Re: Bali bombers execution should be televised..
Reply #32 - Oct 30^th, 2008 at 3:34pm

Amadd wrote on Oct 29^th, 2008 at 8:01pm:

Quote:

Since most are grown adults, I think they're aware of what they're embracing. I've never heard of an Australian changing their mind and reverting to disbelief. Not saying it ccan't happen, but it's highly unlikely to, and even if it did, I don't understand it's relation to my questions...

Did I detect a stutter there abu?
Considering it is our law that we are able to change our minds and grow as we see fit, it is a very relevant point.

So what does happen to people who embrace Islam and then decide to turn away from it?
What happens to the children who refuse to embrace it?

Amadd,

As i suspect you may be aware already, a lot of these ppl you have described are regarded as apostates.

And as within any social group, when ppl break, or transgress community norms it is often the weakest 'offenders' [the easy targets] which suffer the most.

There is a huge growth in 'honour' killings [of young women] among muslim communities, in Europe, as ISLAMISTS gain influence and power within these communities.

I would suspect that these young [ex] muslim women are targets of the worst of the ISLAMIST violence against apostates, because they are the weakest members of this 'offender' group [and can be readily subjected to the violence of the ISLAMIST influences, within their communities].

And of course, the whole [muslim] community see's these abuses against individuals reported in the media, and these abuses are an effective deterrent for others who may be considering 'leaving' ISLAM.

It is all very sad.

« Last Edit: Oct 30^th, 2008 at 3:47pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Bali bombers execution should be televised.. Reply #33 - Oct 30^th, 2008 at 4:10pm Honour killings are nothing to do with Islam, and this has already been debated several times here. They are strictly forbidden and anyone participating in them is nothing but a cold blooded murderer. Then again, it would be out of the ordinary if one of your claims actually had fact behind it.
Back to top	IP Logged

Amadd

Gold Member

Offline

Mo

Posts: 6217

Re: Bali bombers execution should be televised..
Reply #34 - Oct 30^th, 2008 at 5:01pm

I just noticed that my post was edited because I refered to the quran as a novel..lol..hilarious Grin

Yes the honour killings are very sad, but what I'm talking about is Islamic Law.

Let's look at this verse and we'll see how it's interpreted in many countries under Islamic law.

"Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith -
but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty." Surah 16: 106

"The Muslim world suffers from institutionalised violence against apostates. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran,
Indonesia and Egypt all have laws on the books that punish apostasy with death."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/sep/17/supportingislamsapostates

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMAZR8YIhxI

Here's one featuring everybody's favourite - RIchard Dawkins. He finally gets the admission at the end of the clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1b0QKO1rJQ

Also..

The principle of Al-Takeyya The Arabic word, "Takeyya", means "to prevent," or guard against. The principle of Al Takeyya conveys the understanding that Muslims are permitted to lie as a preventive measure against anticipated harm to one's self or fellow Muslims. This principle gives Muslims the liberty to lie under circumstances that they perceive as life threatening. They can even deny the faith, if they do not mean it in their hearts. Al-Takeyya is based on the following Quranic verse:

"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution (prevention), that ye may Guard yourselves from them (prevent them from harming
you.) But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah." Surah 3: 28

According to this verse a Muslim can pretend to befriend infidels (in violation of the teachings of Islam) and display adherence with their unbelief to prevent them from harming him.

[urlhttp://www.islamreview.com/articles/lyingprint.htm[/url]

I probably should provide you with a couple of references, so here yu go:

----------------------------------------------------------

[1] General Assembly of U.N. Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 18

[3] Mohamed S. El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law: A Contemporary Study, (Plainfield: American Trust Publications, 2000), pp. 49-50, 53.

[4]Muhammad Iqbal Siddiqi, The Penal Law of Islam , (Lahore: Kazi Publications, 1979) p. 97.

[5] Abul A‘la Mawdudi, The Punishment of the Apostate According to Islamic Law, Lahore: Islamic Publications, 1963. English translation by Syed Silas Husain & Ernest Hahn, 1994. p, 17.

[6] Rudolph Peters & Gert J.J. De Vries, “Apostasy in Islam”, Die Welt des Islams, Vol. XVII, No. 1-4, 1976-7, pp. 14-18.

[7] ‘Ali, Y., The Holy Qur’an, The Islamic Foundation, UK, 1975, p.1729.

[8]Zwemer, S., The Law of Apostasy in Islam, Marshall Brothers Ltd, UK, 1924, p.34-5.

[9] Gibb, H. and Kramers., Shorter Encyclopaedia of Islam, E.J. Brill, Leiden, 1974, p.413.

[10]Siddiqi op. cit. p. 97

[11] Abul A‘la Mawdudi, The Punishment of the Apostate According to Islamic Law, Lahore: Islamic Publications, 1963 English translation by Syed Silas Husain & Ernest Hahn, 1994. pp, 18-19.

[12]Zwemer, op. cit. p. 33-4.

[13]Pickthall, op. cit. p. 57, footnote.

[14] ‘Ali, Y, op. cit. p. 207, footnote 606.

[15] S.A. Rahman, Punishment of Apostasy in Islam, pp. 15-17 where he claims Ibn al-‘Arabi, Zamakhshari and al-Baydawi held this view. See also the discussion in Mohamed S. El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law: A Contemporary Study, pp. 50-51.

[16] Tafsir al-Qurtubi: Classical Commentary on the Holy Qur’an, translated by Aisha Bewley, Vol. 1, London: Dar al-Taqwa, 2003, pp. 659-661.

[17] See S.A. Rahman, Punishment of Apostasy in Islam, Lahore: Institute of Islamic culture,1978, pp.16-25. Rahman on p. 16 declares this verse to be “one of the most important verses of the Qur’an, containing a charter of freedom of conscience unparalleled in the religious annals of mankind . . .”. He goes on to criticise the attempts by Muslim scholars over the ages to narrow its broad humanistic meaning and impose limits on its scope in their attempts to reconcile it with their interpretations of Muhammad’s Sunna.

[18] Mohamed S. El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law: A Contemporary Study, (Plainfield: American Trust Publications, 2000), p. 51.

[19] Mohamed S. El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law: A Contemporary Study, (Plainfield: American Trust Publications, 2000), p. 52.

IP Logged

Amadd

Gold Member

Offline

Mo

Posts: 6217

Re: Bali bombers execution should be televised..
Reply #35 - Oct 30^th, 2008 at 5:02pm

and a few more references..

[20] A category of defining hadith according to the reliability of their transmitters. A weak hadith is not to be rejected outright, but one must find whether the transmitter’s traditions are supported elsewhere.

[21] Mohamed S. El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law: A Contemporary Study, (Plainfield: American Trust Publications, 2000), p. 52.

[22] Mohamed S. El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law: A Contemporary Study, (Plainfield: American Trust Publications, 2000), pp. 51-52.

[23] Quoted in Muhammad Iqbal Siddiqi, The Penal Law of Islam , (Lahore: Kazi Publications, 1979) p. 103-4.

[24]Quoted in Zwemer op. cit. p.50

[25] See Appendix A. Al-Hedaya, Vol. II, (Hanafi Manual).

[26] The Hedaya: Commentary on the Islamic Laws, Vol. II, Book IX, Chapter IX, p. 225.

[27]The Hedaya: Commentary on the Islamic Laws Vol. II translated by Charles Hamilton (New Delhi: Nusratali Nasri for Kitab Bhavan, reprinted 1985) p. 225

[28]Ibid. pp. 225-6

[29]Ibid. p.227

[30]Ibid. p.227

[31]Ibid. p.245

[32]The Hedaya, op. cit. p. 246, Siddiqi, op. cit, p. 110

[33]The Hedaya, op. cit. p. 228

[34]Ibid. p.22

[35]Ibid. p.231

[36]Ibid. p.232

[37]Ibid. p.232

[38]Ibid. p.232

[39]Ibid. p.235-6

[40]Ibid. p.236

[41]Ibid. p.238

[42]Ibid. p.239, 244-5

[43] See Appendix B, Al-Risala (Maliki Manual).

[44]F.H. Ruxton `Convert`s Status in Maliki Law`, Moslim World, Vol. iii, p. 38 quoted in Zwemer op. cit. p.42

[45] www.light-of-life.com/eng/ilaw/15721et3.htm," target="_blank">[Link] 21/06/2002

[46]F.H. Ruxton op. cit. quoted in Zwemer p. 43

[47] Nawawi, `Minhaj-at-Talibin` , quoted in Zwemer op. cit. p.49

[48] Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual O Islamic Sacred Law, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, Beltsville, Maryland: amana publications, new edition, 1997, pp. 595-596.

[49]Quoted in Zwemer op. cit. p.47-50

[50]Quoted in Zwemer op. cit. p.47-50

[51] Anwar Ahmad Qadri, A Sunnin Shafi‘i Law Code, Lahore: SH. Muhammad Ashraf, 1984, p. 123.

[52]Joseph Schacht, An introduction to Islamic Law, (London: Oxford University Press, 1964), p.16

[53]A. Querry, `Recueil de Lois concernant Les Musulmans Schyites, Vol. ii, quoted in Zwemer op.cit. p.51

[54]Abdul Hameed Abu Sulayman , “Al-dhimmah and Related Concepts in Historical Perspective”, Journal Institute of Muslim Minority Affairs, Vol. 9 No. 1 (January 1988), pp. 18-19

[55] Mahmassani, S., Arkan huquq al-insan, Dar al-`ilm li`l-malayin, Beirut, 1979, p. 123-124, ref. in Mayer op. cit. p.170

[56]Zwemer op. cit. p.35

[57] Sunday Programme, BBC Radio 4, 12 May 1991.

[58] Abul A‘la Mawdudi, The Punishment of the Apostate According to Islamic Law, Lahore: Islamic Publications, 1963 English translation by Syed Silas Husain & Ernest Hahn, 1994. pp, 46-49.

[59]Abdurahman Abdulkadir Kurdi, The Islamic State: A Study based on the Islamic Holy Constitution, (London: Mansell Publishing Limited, 1984) p. 52-53

[60]Siddiqi op. cit. pp. 108-9

[61] Mohamed S. El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law: A Contemporary Study, (Plainfield: American Trust Publications, 2000), p. 53.

[62] Mohamed S. El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law: A Contemporary Study, (Plainfield: American Trust Publications, 2000), pp. 54-64.

[63] Sheikh Muhammad Abu Zahra, “Punishment in Islam”, in D.F. Green, ed., Arab Theologians on Jews and Israel: Extracts from the Proceedings of the Fourth Conference of the Academy of Islamic Research, pp. 71-72

[64] “Source of the Punishment for Apostasy”, [Link] style="text-decoration: none;">[Link] viewed 10 August 2005.

[65] Yusuf al-Qaradawi, Islamic Awakening Between Rejection and Extremism, p. 45.

[66] Zaki Badawi, “Freedom of Religion in Islam”, unpublished paper presented 10 January 2003.

[67] Zaki Badawi, “Freedom of Religion in Islam”, 10 January 2003.

[68] Zaki Badawi, “Freedom of Religion in Islam”, 10 January 2003.

[69]Gibb, H., and Kramer, J., Shorter Encyclopaedia of Islam, (Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1974), article on ``Murtadd` by W. Heffening p.413; but see Siddiqi op. cit. p.109 where he states: "There is almost complete consensus of opinion among the jurists that apostasy from Islam (Irtidad) must be punished by death."

IP Logged

abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Bali bombers execution should be televised.. Reply #36 - Oct 30^th, 2008 at 5:55pm amadd, I think you're mistaken here. I don't doubt your ability to cut and paste, that's not contested. So please spare us more rubbish cut and pastes. All I want you to do is just show me who al Khazan is please?? For a start.
Back to top	IP Logged

Amadd

Gold Member

Offline

Mo

Posts: 6217

Re: Bali bombers execution should be televised..
Reply #37 - Oct 30^th, 2008 at 9:02pm

Really abu..

Haven't I provided you with enough proof of the penalty for apostacy under Islamic law?
There's plenty of information on it. Seek and ye shall find.

Don't say that I'm mistaken, say that Islamic law is mistaken.

more..

islamic teaching on the consequences of apostasy from islam introduction
.

The right to religious freedom, including the right of individuals to change their religion, is taken for granted by most people in the West. However, in Islam[1] all schools of law (madhhahib) agree that adult male apostates from Islam should be killed.
The majority of Muslim jurists claim that apostasy from Islam is a crime carrying the God-prescribed penalty of death.
Therefore, while conversion from other religions to Islam is welcomed and actively encouraged, Muslims who leave
Islam for any other religion must be sentenced to death (unless they repent and return to Islam).[2]

According to criminal law in the Islamic legal system (Shari‘ah), the state must impose mandatory punishments (hudud, singular hadd) for certain specific crimes which are claimed to be committed against God and his rights, and apostasy (rida, irtidad) is often included in this list. These crimes make up a separate category in Shari‘ah criminal law as they are the only ones to have divinely mandated obligatory prescribed punishments which cannot be changed in any way by humans.
Apostasy is thus viewed as a very severe crime for which God himself has prescribed the death penalty.

The death penalty for converts from Islam has nevertheless generated much debate since references
to apostasy in the Qur’an, the primary source of Islamic law, are rather ambiguous.
The hadith (the authoritative traditions recording the sayings and deeds of Muhammad) are therefore the main source used to justify the Shari‘ah punishment of death for apostates.

As for Al Khazan..I have no idea. As far as I can see, it's a place in Saudi Arabia, probably named after some joker of Islamic significance.
The important part is what is taught at (as far as I can see) the most prestigious Islamic university in the world.

Now a question for you abu...

How can the quran be a book of truth when it is deciphered so differently?
..and the same can be asked of the bible.

« Last Edit: Oct 30^th, 2008 at 9:11pm by Amadd »

IP Logged

Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40875 Gender:	Re: Bali bombers execution should be televised.. Reply #38 - Oct 30^th, 2008 at 10:17pm you have lost yet again Abu. you have provided no quotes to show your case, against which Amadd has provided MANY and examples. the koran demands murder
Back to top	Modern Classic Right Wing IP Logged

abu_rashid

Gold Member

Offline

Aussie Muslim

Posts: 8353

Re: Bali bombers execution should be televised..
Reply #39 - Oct 30^th, 2008 at 11:42pm

sprint,

Lost what? My marbles for even bothering to participate in such an amateur discussion?

Quote:

you have provided no quotes to show your case, against which Amadd has provided MANY and examples.

Just quoting stuff doesn't win you the debate, especially if it turns out what you quoted is fabricated, or the person doesn't even exist.

Quote:

the koran demands murder

It demands capital punishment, as does the Bible. And?

amadd,

Quote:

Haven't I provided you with enough proof of the penalty for apostacy under Islamic law?

Why would you need to provide me with proof, where did I say it's not the punishment for apostasy?

Your whole cut and paste debate was against some perceived opposition to this point, yet nowhere did I state it's wrong. I merely asked who al-Khazan is supposed to be, since you claimed he's the commentator of the Qur'an as used by al-Azhar. I found it strange, as I've never heard of him, and I'd consider I know all of the major commentators of the Qur'an.

IP Logged

Amadd

Gold Member

Offline

Mo

Posts: 6217

Re: Bali bombers execution should be televised..
Reply #40 - Oct 31^st, 2008 at 11:32am

Abu, if you are not satisfied with the examples I've provided, then I could bring up 101 more.
However, since you agree, there's no need.

The point I'm making is that this ridiculous apostacy law is widespread throughout Islam and I don't want people with this attitude entering our country.
As well, it's common for muslims to take allegiance with their muslim brothers of different nations over and above the allegiance that they swear to their chosen nation. Do you know anything about this strange phenomenon abu?
This is the reason that I don't trust Indonesia to carry out the execution of the Bali bombers. They were practically treated like royalty by their "muslim brother" prison gaurds.
I want to watch the executions, and I want DNA samples taken.

Quote:

It demands capital punishment, as does the Bible. And?

Capital punishment for what? For changing religion?
I'm not sure in what context the bible demands capital punishment, however, the bible is not our law.
If there were enough muslims over here to demand that our legal system recognise Islamic law, then it would no doubt happen. You can't deny that there is an Islamic desire for world domination. I say keep them out!

IP Logged

abu_rashid

Gold Member

Offline

Aussie Muslim

Posts: 8353

Re: Bali bombers execution should be televised..
Reply #41 - Oct 31^st, 2008 at 11:41am

The Bible demands capital punishment for a wide range of crimes. Including most of those that Islam does. Do you think Jews should be booted out too?

After all, they have Halachic law, which is equivalent to, and in most cases the same as, Shari'ah law.

The US also has capital punishment, should Americans not be allowed in too?

What you fail to realise is that when someone becomes a citizen of Australia, they recognise the law of other countries is not the law here, and they generally agree to adopt and abide by it. There will always be law-breakers from all different backgrounds, and they will be dealt with by the law, but to suggest people of a certain religion shouldn't be allowed to come to Australia is just ridiculous, you're a xenophobic bigot plain and simple. Also as I asked, the 'boot em out' solution doesn't deal with Aboriginal or Anglo Australians who convert, what's your solution for us? The Aboriginals walk back to Indonesia (as they came 40,000 years ago) and the Anglos get herded into boats and shipped back to Britain?

IP Logged

Gaybriel

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 1191

Re: Bali bombers execution should be televised..
Reply #42 - Oct 31^st, 2008 at 11:56am

Amadd- is what you have an issue with a) the punishment itself or b) that religious punishments have been enshrined in law and are actually being implemented in some countries?

or both?

because as abu has pointed out many religions carry the same punishments- so it is just that they have not made this a matter of social law?

IP Logged

Amadd

Gold Member

Offline

Mo

Posts: 6217

Re: Bali bombers execution should be televised..
Reply #43 - Oct 31^st, 2008 at 12:10pm

xenophobic? Please explain?

Quote:

What you fail to realise is that when someone becomes a citizen of Australia, they recognise the law of other countries is not the law here, and they generally agree to adopt and abide by it.

What you fail to admit is that the boundaries of our freedoms are being sacrificed to accomodate our muslim friends.
Many muslims aren't accepting of our laws. They don't even denounce the actions of their terrorist "brothers." A lot of them even support it.
And as far as you're concerned, you seem to not be able to distinguish between the crimes of the Bali bombers and the Bali nine from a moral standpoint.

IP Logged

Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40875 Gender:	Re: Bali bombers execution should be televised.. Reply #44 - Oct 31^st, 2008 at 12:15pm Warning warning warning - diversionary tactics used. gaybrielapologetic - christianity is not a legal/policing/army/justice/political system , jews do not have the goal of ruling the world.
Back to top	Modern Classic Right Wing IP Logged

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 7

‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›

« Forum

‹ Board

Top of this page