Gaybriel wrote on Oct 30
th, 2008 at 7:16pm:
mozzaok wrote on Oct 30
th, 2008 at 6:55pm:
Yes, very informative post Yadda, thanks.
As for Gaybriel's valiant attempts to defend the indefensible, I suppose it shows someone who just tries to see the best in people, against all odds.
(and evidence
)
I try to take people as they come. I try not to make mass judgements about people or groups of whom I have little to no knowledge.
This does not make me blind to facts. In fact people seem to be blind to my posts when I am critical of muslims- when that happens I get no response from anyone, but as soon as I say anything that tries to encourage a little less generalisation or a little more complexity of thought- apparently I'm an apologist who can't see straight, defends the indefensible, is unable to the critical of muslims etc etc......
.......and yet again I was told I was defending killers.
perhaps I'm not the blind one here. Perhaps it may just be that there is such contempt for islam here, that anyone who comes in and refuses to spit upon it and mock it is immediately classified as the enemy. well I refuse to subscribe to the behaviour of so many others on this forum just to satisfy their bizarre kind of intellectual blood lust......
Gaybriel,
I can feel from your posts, and i wish to believe, that you are a sincere person.
But perhaps you are the blind one here?
I will suggest that,
Although you may know many ppl who
represent themselves to you, as typical and devout muslims, perhaps these ppl are,
1/ not what they appear to be [i.e. they are lying to you?],
OR,
2/ are not what they represent themselves to be [i.e.
they are not muslims]?
Q.
Who is a true muslim?
Q.
What doctrines do true muslims follow, and endorse?
To answer these Q's, isn't it reasonable to seek answers from studying ISLAMIC texts themselves [to learn what those texts espouse], and by also observing the behaviour of ppl who claim to be muslims?
And shouldn't the behaviour of true, and real muslims be a true reflection, be closely aligned, with what those ISLAMIC texts contain and say?
i.e.
Shouldn't 'a muslim', be defined by what ISLAMIC texts say, a true muslim is,
and isn't a muslim defined by what ISLAM says his 'religious' obligations are, as a muslim?
And if ISLAMIC texts define ALL [true] muslims as being at war with non-muslims, isn't it reasonable to say that the actions of muslims, who ARE in conflict with non-muslims, is a reflection, a confirmation, of what a true muslim is?
From the Koran....
"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other......"http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/048.qmt.html#048.029"O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed."http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.073http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/066.qmt.html#066.009So, aren't true muslims, those muslims who are true to, and are obedient to the ISLAMIC doctrine of intolerance of 'unbelief' in the world?
And all the 'muslims' who claim to be tolerant of unbelief,
aren't those ppl in fact, re-defining themselves, as non-muslims???
And if these are true muslims [those who are violent and intolerant of unbelief],
.....then where do your 'muslim' friends fit?
.....those, who claim to be muslims?
And if the study ISLAMIC texts presents a very clear world view, for muslims to follow, and clearly present the doctrines which muslims must adopt
TO BE MUSLIMS [i.e. violence against and intolerance of non-muslims, and 'unbelief'], then shouldn't we accept [logically] that those ppl, who make a claim of being muslims, and yet, disavow ISLAMIC doctrines which are clearly espoused within ISLAMIC texts,
1/ may not in fact be real muslims?
OR,
2/
are misrepresenting themselves, and ISLAM, to you and others, for whatever purpose?
Gaybriel,
What i cannot understand is the apparent
chasm of credibility.......
.....between the claims of
ppl WHO CLAIM TO BE, AND CALL THEMSELVES MUSLIMS [and who make the claim, to non-muslims, that ISLAM is tolerant and peaceful],
.....
and yet call themselves muslims AND will distance themselves from what are clearly the violent and intolerant doctrines of ISLAM.
Gaybriel,
Q.
Who are the true muslims?
Are the true muslims those who speak platitudes, to non-muslims?
Or are the true muslims, those who full fill their 'religious' obligations, those obligations which are set out within ISLAMIC 'religious' texts?
+++++
Psalms 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing [deceit]: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
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