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Dissent or Sedition? (Read 18391 times)
Grendel
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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #60 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 7:21pm
 
rotflmao

keep proving me right oh ignorant one.

yes aboo some churches don't believe in the trinity.

In fact there are also differing ideas about it in those that do.

Grin Grin Grin
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abu_rashid
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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #61 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 7:21pm
 

That's correct Jordan, but they don't amount to more than about 0.01% of Christians combined.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #62 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 7:27pm
 

99.99% of Christians believe in the trinity...

Also 99.99% believe in saints...

Also about 80% believe in a Pope of some kind...

Also about 99.99% believe in confession, however Protestants don't confess openly to priests.
80% actually believe in confession to a priest or other individual...

You're ignorant, plain and simple, even about your own religion.
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Grendel
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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #63 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 7:40pm
 
keep the proof coming aboo  you make me laugh in what you believe and don't know.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #64 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 8:01pm
 

Proof or no proof it's irrelevant to you, you still just spit out the same response. Discussing anything with you is purely a waste of time. The lights are on but nobody's home.
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Grendel
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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #65 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 8:04pm
 
I post proof all the time and every time you get shot down in dumbass flames...

a quick look back will prove that to anyone not in your cheersquad...

I will when I get time do the same here no doubt.
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Gaybriel
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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #66 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 8:08pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 21st, 2008 at 12:09pm:
Whilst I appreciate you're basing your assumptions on life experience Gaybriel, that's not really an excuse for discussing the issue if you don't know much about it. I too once only had life experience about this issue to draw on, but I wouldn't have discussed it at that time, not until I actually did some research. I am originally from an Anglican background, so I can appreciate how the situation is viewed 'on the ground', but that still doesn't change the facts.

Quote:
like I said I'm going more from life experience than book experience. whilst the distinction between catholic and christian may be more complex in theory


The fact that you still use this kind of comparison tells me you still don't really get it. Would it make sense to talk about "the distinction between Anglicans and Christians"?

Let me put it in simpler terms.

Christians = {Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Other}

Catholics = about 60% of all Christians.

Orthodox = about 20% of all Christians.

Protestant = about 20% of all Christians.

Other = about 0.01% of all Christians.

hmm, my maths is bad, something doesn't quite add up there. anyway hopefully you get the point. Now Catholics and Orthodox had a schism about 1000 yeara ago, but their teachings remain quite similar, and in fact some Orthodox actually rejoined the Catholics (so called Eastern rites) about the same time (roughly 500 years ago) that the Protestants also had their schism and broke away from the mainstream Catholics. In protest they altered their beliefs and practises dramatically, so as to become quite different in both from the mainstream (Catholic, and also Orthodox) Christians. So really if we could consider anyone to be straying from the main body of Christianity, it would be the Protestants and the Other, who are mostly groups that further broke away from Protestantism, in the USA.

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my reference is more to the lived mentality of the christians (and catholics) I know and yeah- I make the distinction in that way


The distinction is wrong.

Quote:
because the christians I know call themselves simply christians


As do Catholics. In fact the word Catholic just mean Universal, so Catholic Church is the Universal Church. And in fact the Nicene creed, which all Catholics, Orthodox, and all Protestants adopt clearly states that they believe themselves to be Catholics:

"We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church."


The Lutherans are the only Protestants I know of who actually altered this 1700 year old creed of all Christians, and removed the word Catholic.

Quote:
but make the distinction between themselves and catholics


They probably also make the distinction between themselves and the Orthodox, and between themselves and half the other Protestants also... That's irrelevant.


take it easy man- I said where I was coming from. you've pointed out where I was wrong and I accept that. no need to keep on going.

I could respond to some things you said but I'm just going to leave it alone as we're approaching it from different perspectives and even though I've qualified from where my comments are coming you are responding to them from your own.

my comments were merely to further explain where I was coming from, not to argue a particular point.
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Grendel
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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #67 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 9:47pm
 
None of this of course is particularly relevant to the topic or the opening discussion.

Nothing unusual in the site Muslims turning discussion away from the topic.  Always a good thing when life gets a bit difficult...  deflect and evade.

But let me make a comment on the "guess" from aboo about Christianity, Catholicism and the Trinity...

Although some denominations require their members to profess faith in the trinity, most mainstream denominations have taken a "hands-off" policy on the subject of the trinity, realizing that since personal study and free thought have been encouraged for years, it is not surprising that some of the conclusions reached would be non-trinitarian.

In other words, Christianity has historically sought to look beyond its doctrines (unlike some more dogmatic religions) to the greater truth they are intended to address, i.e. God.

It is not uncommon for a Methodist, Presbyterian, or Anglican to profess non-trinitarian views, even among the clergy.

My church never taught the Trinity.

From my readings neither the Old or New Testaments support the Trinity view.  Early Christians didn't.  Jesus never taught it and unless I'm mistaken his teachings are what Christianity is based on.

Nontrinitarians note that Jesus referred to ascending unto "my Father, and to your Father; and to my God, and to your God", and that he said "the Father is the only true God." Additionally, Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 6:4 when saying in Mark 12:29 "The most important one (commandment)," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one."  Far be it from me to disagree.

Siding with nontrinitarians, many scholars investigating the historical Jesus often assert that Jesus taught neither his own equality with God nor the Trinity

As an aside...  a comment from noted commentator and writer H.G. Wells: "We shall see presently how later on all Christendom was torn by disputes about the Trinity. There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the Trinity at any rate from him."

It is well know that Catholicism adopted many pagan practices, festivals and rituals into itself in the furthering of its dominion and influence.

Now what was it I originally said...  oh yes...

Quote:
Catholicism departs quite fundamentally from other churches in its practices and that it believes in the Trinity, creates Saints, has a Pope(and all that entails), prays to/through idols etc,  and believes in confession etc, etc, etc...


Having proven that and had aboo begrudgingly agree yet try to wriggle out of it with some creative statistics, I suppose I will now have to move onto the other points re saints etc...
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Grendel
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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #68 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 10:00pm
 
Hmmm.

Ok aboo
what Christian churches create saints and pray to them?
Let me give you a help there... Not Presbyterians,, in fact i cant think of any Protestant church that does.
Even the Eastern Orthodox churches differ from the Catholic pravtice and belief in this.  Hmmm  can't remember the Lutherans creating any saints.

All your aboo I await enlightenment and expect the usual..  Grin
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Grendel
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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #69 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 10:15pm
 
The Pope or Holy father is the head of the Catholic church and is recognized by them as the successor to Saint Peter.  The Catholic's claim the Pope has spiritual authority on Earth and it proclaims the dogma of papal infallibility.

The Petrine Doctrine is still controversial as an issue of doctrine that continues to divide the eastern and western churches as well as separating Protestants from Rome.

How many other current heads of Christian churches is held to be the word of God on Earth?
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Grendel
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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #70 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 10:15pm
 
NEED I GO ON Roll Eyes Grin Grin Grin
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abu_rashid
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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #71 - Oct 22nd, 2008 at 7:14am
 

Quote:
Although some denominations require their members to profess faith in the trinity


ALL Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Churches adopt the trinity as accepted doctrine and creed. What individuals themselves adopt, with or without the consent of the church is beyond the scope of this debate, as it simply can't be accurately quantified.

Catholics, Orthodox and Protestant make up 99.99% of all Christians.

Quote:
It is well know that Catholicism adopted many pagan practices, festivals and rituals into itself in the furthering of its dominion and influence.


Don't get me wrong Grendel, if you reject the trinity, I commend you, as it is indeed a load of pagan inspired nonsense. But the fact is that it was adopted about 1700 years ago by ALL Christians except the Arians, and the Arians mostly became Muslims (agreeing with our purely monotheistic message) or were exterminated by the Trinitarians.

Quote:
what Christian churches create saints and pray to them?


You never said 'and pray to them' in your original claim, leave the strawmen out of it.

Go and check the name of your local Anglican parish or school... Hint: The "St" at the start of the name doesn't mean street Smiley

Quote:
Even the Eastern Orthodox churches differ from the Catholic pravtice and belief in this.


Nope, Eastern Orthodox believe in saints, they disagreed over icons, not saints, and even then they later accepted them anyway.

Quote:
Hmmm  can't remember the Lutherans creating any saints.


Lutherans are generally the exception, as they protested quite strongly against Rome. However most other Protestants do accept saints. I think they at least consider the early church fathers, St Paul, St Peter etc. to be saints.

So even if we discount the Protestants (which most believe in saints anyway), Catholic and Orthodox both accept saints, so at least 80% of Christians believe in saints. No small minority...

Quote:
The Pope or Holy father is the head of the Catholic church


The Orthodox churches all have popes as well.

So again, 80% of Christians believe in a pope.
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jordan484
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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #72 - Oct 22nd, 2008 at 7:33am
 
Quote:
as it is indeed a load of pagan inspired nonsense.

Just so we're clear, you find it acceptable to talk this way about someone elses belief system, but others cannot do the same to yours?
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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins
 
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Grendel
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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #73 - Oct 22nd, 2008 at 9:34am
 
rotflmao

here we go aboo...  I'll post the Pope stuff for you again.
Just so you can see how foolish your strawman was again.

The Pope or Holy father is the head of the Catholic church and is recognized by them as the successor to Saint Peter.  The Catholic's claim the Pope has spiritual authority on Earth and it proclaims the dogma of papal infallibility.

The Petrine Doctrine is still controversial as an issue of doctrine that continues to divide the eastern and western churches as well as separating Protestants from Rome.

How many other current heads of Christian churches is held to be the word of God on Earth?
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Grendel
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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #74 - Oct 22nd, 2008 at 9:41am
 
rotflmao

I already mentioned the idolatry bit in my original post aboo  so no I wont leave off the "and pray to them but at all"

No strawman on your part is gonna work.
No false claims and pedantry is gonna work.
I'm not letting someone like you get away with anything.

If you wish to leave it off go right ahead.

I already proved my point.
(even without that)

Here let me post it again for you oh ignorant one.
Stop living in deluded denial.  Or admit you are wrong and are clueless.

Ok aboo
what Christian churches create saints and pray to them?
Let me give you a help there... Not Presbyterians,, in fact i cant think of any Protestant church that does.
Even the Eastern Orthodox churches differ from the Catholic practice and belief in this.  Hmmm  can't remember the Lutherans creating any saints.

All your aboo I await enlightenment and expect the usual..  

oh and Aboo calling a church after a Saint aint creating a Saint.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

oh and ... Even the Eastern Orthodox churches differ from the Catholic practice and belief in this.  IS A FACT....  sorry if your English or knowledge is so poor you don't understand this.


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« Last Edit: Oct 22nd, 2008 at 9:48am by Grendel »  
 
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