yes gaybriel I too have told aboo not to confuse Catholicism with Christianity.

This is called the clear and open hypocrisy of Christianity, that sees people out all weekend committing the most disgusting sins, but in church on Sunday morning confessing them, having them forgiven.

Isn't a Christian belief, it is a Catholic practice.  I don't believe in it.  Most churches don't practice it.

It's pretty hard getting him to see the "light" so to speak.

Grendel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 10:36pm:


perhaps we could make this a new thread

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Yes but there's also massive differences between all the different sects, not between "Catholics" and "Christians". Catholics are Christians, as are Orthodox and Protestants, as are Mormons and JW's. Now I would contend that the differences between Orthodox and Catholics for instance is much less than between either of those two and Protestants.

The Catholic and Orthodox churches are by far the two largest Christian congregations. The Protestants and other new sects, even combined, are a tiny minority in comparison.

Yet it seems you come from a position that protestants (most probably) are "Christians" and Catholics are somewhat different than "normal Protestant Christians", you're the minority, not them.

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Well most of the evidence would suggest they are the original Christian Church, the word Protestant actually means the people who protested against the original Chuirch and established a new church...

Either way, they are the bulk of Christians, and it's a lot more rational to look at the mainstream and bulk of Christianity, than to look at tiny minority sects. Add to this the fact Catholics and Orthodox (who make up the huge bulk of Christians) are much closer to one another than to any other sect.

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Anglican OR Protestant? Oh dear... I think you better learn a little bit about Christianity before discussing this. Anglicans ARE Protestants

What about the dissent within Islam itself Abu?

Sunni's not keen on Shi'ites, and sub-sects of each going pretty hard against the rest, and ALL, claiming to be THE ones following the book as it was intended.

You think you have found the ONE TRUTH, and you identify with the muslim ummah, which encompasses all these sub-sets.

If you believe in this essence of brotherhood, amongst muslims, and if you believe the koran is divinely inspired, then how do so many, get it so wrong?
Many actually kill members of opposing sects, that is pretty extreme, yet they are all part of the ummah, so how does the ummah plan to unite these factions, which have been going at it since Islam began, even under the caliphate?

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This is the bit that I was hoping you may attempt to answer, the one truth bit was merely stating that if you reckon your book has the true answers, then why has their always been such violent division over that single truth, and why have no muslims ever been able to sort out the divisions within Islam?

Whilst I appreciate you're basing your assumptions on life experience Gaybriel, that's not really an excuse for discussing the issue if you don't know much about it. I too once only had life experience about this issue to draw on, but I wouldn't have discussed it at that time, not until I actually did some research. I am originally from an Anglican background, so I can appreciate how the situation is viewed 'on the ground', but that still doesn't change the facts.

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The fact that you still use this kind of comparison tells me you still don't really get it. Would it make sense to talk about "the distinction between Anglicans and Christians"?

Let me put it in simpler terms.

Christians = {Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Other}

Catholics = about 60% of all Christians.

Orthodox = about 20% of all Christians.

Protestant = about 20% of all Christians.

Other = about 0.01% of all Christians.

hmm, my maths is bad, something doesn't quite add up there. anyway hopefully you get the point. Now Catholics and Orthodox had a schism about 1000 yeara ago, but their teachings remain quite similar, and in fact some Orthodox actually rejoined the Catholics (so called Eastern rites) about the same time (roughly 500 years ago) that the Protestants also had their schism and broke away from the mainstream Catholics. In protest they altered their beliefs and practises dramatically, so as to become quite different in both from the mainstream (Catholic, and also Orthodox) Christians. So really if we could consider anyone to be straying from the main body of Christianity, it would be the Protestants and the Other, who are mostly groups that further broke away from Protestantism, in the USA.

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The distinction is wrong.

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As do Catholics. In fact the word Catholic just mean Universal, so Catholic Church is the Universal Church. And in fact the Nicene creed, which all Catholics, Orthodox, and all Protestants adopt clearly states that they believe themselves to be Catholics:

"We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church."

The Lutherans are the only Protestants I know of who actually altered this 1700 year old creed of all Christians, and removed the word Catholic.

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They probably also make the distinction between themselves and the Orthodox, and between themselves and half the other Protestants also... That's irrelevant.

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Perhaps you'd be best off addressing your own ignorance first?

Like this for instance:

"Catholicism departs quite fundamentally from other churches in its practices and that it believes in the Trinity"

You don't even know that other churches believe in the trinity? Would be kind of sad if you were a protestant yourself and you didn't even know your own belief involved the trinity...