Australian Politics Forum - Dissent or Sedition?

Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: Dissent or Sedition? Reply #30 - Oct 20^th, 2008 at 1:47pm Grendel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 1:21pm: lol there are none so blind gaybriel. back on topic.. Anyone remember the burning of the danish Embassy? Dissent? Fatwah anyone? whatever you reckon mate. as to your question- not dissent. straight out criminal act.
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mozzaok

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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #31 - Oct 20^th, 2008 at 2:02pm

Look, I have been where Gaybriel is, in feeling that attacking muslims is just exacerbating an already bad situation, and face it grendel, you rarely tiptoe around a subject, even when you may be right, you have a way of making others feel it may be wrong, because it seems too over the top.

I have changed to be more openly condemning of Islam, because I think that certain distortions of fact that they promote should be challenged, and I dislike all religions, and see them as forces of evil in the world, and Islam is streets ahead in that department at the present time.

I don't think it has to be that way.
I think people of faith can stop expecting others to accept and respect their beliefs, and content themselves with the freedom to worship as they please, so long as they also follow societal norms, and stop trying to save us, by threatening to, or actually, blowing people up.

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Exotic Cheese Junior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 82	Re: Dissent or Sedition? Reply #32 - Oct 20^th, 2008 at 2:14pm mod: personal attack, swearing and abuse. this is a warning- please keep your comments constructive.
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Gaybriel

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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #33 - Oct 20^th, 2008 at 2:14pm

mozzaok wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 2:02pm:

Look, I have been where Gaybriel is, in feeling that attacking muslims is just exacerbating an already bad situation, and face it grendel, you rarely tiptoe around a subject, even when you may be right, you have a way of making others feel it may be wrong, because it seems too over the top.

I have changed to be more openly condemning of Islam, because I think that certain distortions of fact that they promote should be challenged, and I dislike all religions, and see them as forces of evil in the world, and Islam is streets ahead in that department at the present time.

I don't think it has to be that way.
I think people of faith can stop expecting others to accept and respect their beliefs, and content themselves with the freedom to worship as they please, so long as they also follow societal norms, and stop trying to save us, by threatening to, or actually, blowing people up.

I appreciate you trying to sympathise with what you think is my situation. but it is not the case.

I have no problem with openly condemning the actions of muslims when appropriate. I have no problem with criticising muslims when appropriate.

I DO have a problem when massive generalisations are made and then used to support hatred or dislike of a entire group of people. or even to monotholise muslims as if they were all one entity.

I DO have a problem when the sentiment behind such comments is one of hatred and disdain.

I DO have a problem when people twist everything to suit their point of view.

I have been critical of actions by muslims and certain islamic beliefs on this forum and elsewhere.

I dislike when others try to push their beliefs onto other people. I dislike it when people use religion as justification to start a war and to hurt others.

I especially hate it when people cherry pick from their religion what they do and don't want to follow. like when people chant 'an eye for an eye' and forget 'to do unto their neighbours as they would do unto themselves' and to 'turn the other cheek'

but all of these things will not cause me to write an entire group of people off- particularly when I know people of certain faiths (muslim and christian) through whom I can see the true message of their religions.

and yes- the vehemence with which people just make these mass generalisations, along with the generalisations themselves, seems incredibly wrong to me.

so if people want to take my comments that are pro islam or even neutral as some sort of proof me being an apologist, and ignore my critical statements- then so be it.

just because I don't echo the sentiments of others on here doesn't mean the critical function in my brain does not work when it comes to muslims

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mozzaok

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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #34 - Oct 20^th, 2008 at 2:27pm

Well unfortunately, the mass generalisations of people, is not without some arguments to support it.

The mass that makes the muslim world, is necessary for these jihadists to gain support and credibility, if they, The Mass, choose to withdraw that support, then the terrorists would still be dangerous, but no more relevant, or lasting than say the, "Red Brigade" were back in the '70's.

The broader community of a religion does contribute to the "power" that the religion exerts, and that must be used wisely, if it is not, it is worthy of condemnation.

Now of course that doesn't mean go in the streets and look for muslims to abuse, but it does mean that they must all bear some of the responsibility for the direction their religion takes.

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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: Dissent or Sedition? Reply #35 - Oct 20^th, 2008 at 2:33pm I respectfully disagree. Particularly with the second part of your last sentence
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mozzaok

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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #36 - Oct 20^th, 2008 at 3:06pm

Then how do religions take certain directions, without the acquiescence of the followers?

I am sorry that I am struggling to express the position to make it easily understandable, as a fact of life, not just an arbitrary opinion.

One of the principles of the group dynamic which comes into play where we see people of a faith inspired to things like mass suicides, or suicide bombings, is their sense of obligation to the group.

My point is that the muslim ummah, promotes this collective consciousness, which empowers the radical imams to convince young people to commit atrocities in the name of allah, and for the furtherance of the goals of the muslim ummah.

If muslims en masse, said, no you do not represent me, what you are doing goes against the teachings of allah and islam, then these radical imams lose much of their power to demand acts for the good of islam.

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Gaybriel

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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #37 - Oct 20^th, 2008 at 3:13pm

mozzaok wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 3:06pm:

Then how do religions take certain directions, without the acquiescence of the followers?

I am sorry that I am struggling to express the position to make it easily understandable, as a fact of life, not just an arbitrary opinion.

One of the principles of the group dynamic which comes into play where we see people of a faith inspired to things like mass suicides, or suicide bombings, is their sense of obligation to the group.

My point is that the muslim ummah, promotes this collective consciousness, which empowers the radical imams to convince young people to commit atrocities in the name of allah, and for the furtherance of the goals of the muslim ummah.

If muslims en masse, said, no you do not represent me, what you are doing goes against the teachings of allah and islam, then these radical imams lose much of their power to demand acts for the good of islam.

sure- I see what you're saying. and the whole thing about people overseas becoming politically engaged with global issues because they feel it is part of them being in the ummah.

but at the same time- it is these people who attract the most attention (for obvious reasons).

from my experience there are many muslims who say they are not represented by these people, that their actions go against islam- but they do not receive the same attention.

I mean you can say something as much as you want- but if noone is listening it makes little difference.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Dissent or Sedition? Reply #38 - Oct 20^th, 2008 at 6:07pm a couple of things gaybriel... AN EYE FOR AN EYE is NOT a Christian teaching or belief. I have Muslim friends. I live next to them and work with them. I have friends of various ethnic backgrounds too and races. there is no hate in anything I say or do. I have ISLAMIC HEROES... one or 2 are even real. ROTFLMAO
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Gaybriel

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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #39 - Oct 20^th, 2008 at 8:21pm

Grendel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 6:07pm:

a couple of things gaybriel...

AN EYE FOR AN EYE is NOT a Christian teaching or belief.

no but some christians use it in order to support certain beliefs- like the death penalty etc

Quote:

I have Muslim friends.
I live next to them and work with them.
I have friends of various ethnic backgrounds too and races.

there is no hate in anything I say or do.

I'm glad

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abu_rashid

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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #40 - Oct 20^th, 2008 at 8:34pm

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no but some christians use it in order to support certain beliefs- like the death penalty etc

Let us not also forget the invasion of Afghanistan and the murder of many more civilians there than in the 9/11 attacks. Eye for an eye in Christianity is ok as long as you're angry enough, but after the revenge has been exacted (no doubt in much larger measures) and the people calm down, then they go back to claiming to be all about peace and forgiving and loving your enemy... This is called the clear and open hypocrisy of Christianity, that sees people out all weekend committing the most disgusting sins, but in church on Sunday morning confessing them, having them forgiven.

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Gaybriel

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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #41 - Oct 20^th, 2008 at 9:12pm

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 8:34pm:

Quote:

no but some christians use it in order to support certain beliefs- like the death penalty etc

Let us not also forget the invasion of Afghanistan and the murder of many more civilians there than in the 9/11 attacks. Eye for an eye in Christianity is ok as long as you're angry enough, but after the revenge has been exacted (no doubt in much larger measures) and the people calm down, then they go back to claiming to be all about peace and forgiving and loving your enemy... This is called the clear and open hypocrisy of Christianity, that sees people out all weekend committing the most disgusting sins, but in church on Sunday morning confessing them, having them forgiven.

When discussing foreign policy and govt policy- I think it's easy to see how leaders of all faiths use religion in order to advance their cause- including muslim countries.

it's a powerful tool to get people to fall in line and lots of people sadly use it incorrectly in order to achieve this.

as to the people sinning and then confessing- I think you'll find true christians are not like this. a friend of mine is christian and she does not act in that way at all.

I have discussed tis attitude with her- I asked her about someone I heard saying "I can do whatever I want cause I'm christian and just need to ask for forgiveness the next day"- she said the person was very misguided. repentance is not a free pass- someone who truly repents is someone who will not commit that sin again, or will do their best not to.

some people may 'token repent' but that is not true repentance and of course, you can't fool god.

I also asked her if repenting was enough and she said christians were also judged upon their 'deeds'- it is not just about belief in christ and saying you repent for your sins.

true repentance is hard to do.

in terms of confession- in modern day terms you have confused catholicism with christianity- christians do not confess and receive the amount of prayers they must do. that's only catholics.

and I don't think that it is a hypocrisy of christianity as much as it is the kind of hypocrisy you see in human beings regardless of faith.

people who take part of their holy text (or even personal beliefs) to damn something but then turn around and do that same thing

if you see a hypocrisy in christianity I am surprised- as muslims also believe that jesus was a prophet. so I assume you meant the hypocrisy of some christians. not all- and certainly not christianity itself.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #42 - Oct 20^th, 2008 at 9:37pm

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I think it's easy to see how leaders of all faiths use religion in order to advance their cause- including muslim countries.

Nope, "Muslim Countries" never do that. We keep hoping for them to show some signs of religiosity, but they're masters don't permit it Sad

Did you have a specific instance in mind, or just trying to be fair and even handed, so thought you might have to mention Muslims as well?

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I think you'll find true christians are not like this.

Well we can't judge the individual actions of all adherents by the doctrine. But I personally think the Christian doctrine leads to hypocrisy. If we just examine the issue of war, as mentioned above. The Islamic texts for instance have clear rules of war listed in the Qur'an, as our creator knows it's a human behaviour that is going to occur. It's part of the human condition, and so it is legislated for, in the Islamic texts. Now many criticise Islam for this, but it's just a recongition of the human condition, and a responsible legislating for it. Christianity on the other hand doesn't have any texts relating to war, so when we see Christians eventually going to war, we see nothing but barbaric atrocities, because they simply don't know how to behave themselves in war, no instructions... Plain and simple. We saw this in the crusades and numerous other wars between Muslims and Christians down through the ages. In some cases, Christians actually ate the conquered Muslims... How barbaric and primitive is that?

And we still see it today, in Afghanistan and Iraq and so on. Christians committing the most barbaric and atrocious actions against others in the theatre of war. And then all of a sudden they're all peace loving and forgiving...

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repentance is not a free pass- someone who truly repents is someone who will not commit that sin again, or will do their best not to.

According to official church doctrine, you can. As long as you accept Jesus (pbuh) as your saviour, you can do as you please, and you're still saved.

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in terms of confession- in modern day terms you have confused catholicism with christianity

Since the vast majority of Christians are Catholics, it's quite a fair 'confusion'.

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I am surprised- as muslims also believe that jesus was a prophet. so I assume you meant the hypocrisy of some christians. not all- and certainly not christianity itself.

We don't believe Christians to be actually following the message of Jesus (pbuh).

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Gaybriel

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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #43 - Oct 20^th, 2008 at 9:50pm

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 9:37pm:

Nope, "Muslim Countries" never do that. We keep hoping for them to show some signs of religiosity, but they're masters don't permit it Sad

Did you have a specific instance in mind, or just trying to be fair and even handed, so thought you might have to mention Muslims as well?

lol no- I should have said muslim leaders as opposed to countries. thinking specifically about the taliban, the.....omg I cannot remember his name....khohmeini?

oh and moving away from islam- even leaders like hitler used religion. sure hitler got rid of religion, but he set up his own.

and when I say these people use religion I do not mean they are being true to the religion itself- but manipulating it to further their own cause.

Quote:

Well we can't judge the individual actions of all adherents by the doctrine. But I personally think the Christian doctrine leads to hypocrisy. If we just examine the issue of war, as mentioned above. The Islamic texts for instance have clear rules of war listed in the Qur'an, as our creator knows it's a human behaviour that is going to occur. It's part of the human condition, and so it is legislated for, in the Islamic texts. Now many criticise Islam for this, but it's just a recongition of the human condition, and a responsible legislating for it. Christianity on the other hand doesn't have any texts relating to war, so when we see Christians eventually going to war, we see nothing but barbaric atrocities, because they simply don't know how to behave themselves in war, no instructions... Plain and simple. We saw this in the crusades and numerous other wars between Muslims and Christians down through the ages. In some cases, Christians actually ate the conquered Muslims... How barbaric and primitive is that?

And we still see it today, in Afghanistan and Iraq and so on. Christians committing the most barbaric and atrocious actions against others in the theatre of war. And then all of a sudden they're all peace loving and forgiving...

again- isn't calling christianity flawed calling god flawed? as it was his word through jesus? or are you criticising how it has evolved?

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According to official church doctrine, you can. As long as you accept Jesus (pbuh) as your saviour, you can do as you please, and you're still saved.

which church?

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Since the vast majority of Christians are Catholics, it's quite a fair 'confusion'.

yes but in modern day christians and catholics define themselves quite differently - so to put the beliefs in the same basket doesn't really work. there are some in common, but they also differ greatly in many areas.

Quote:

We don't believe Christians to be actually following the message of Jesus (pbuh).

aha

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abu_rashid

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Re: Dissent or Sedition?
Reply #44 - Oct 20^th, 2008 at 10:13pm

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lol no- I should have said muslim leaders as opposed to countries. thinking specifically about the taliban, the.....omg I cannot remember his name....khohmeini?

Perhaps, but most "Muslim countries" would not be caught dead mentioning anything about religion.

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again- isn't calling christianity flawed calling god flawed? as it was his word through jesus? or are you criticising how it has evolved?

Exactly. We believe 'Christianity' is an evolved form of the original religion brought by Jesus (pbuh).

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which church?

As far as I remember, it's in the Nicene creed, so all of the mainstream churches, ie. about 99% of Christians.

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yes but in modern day christians and catholics define themselves quite differently

I don't know who you think "Christians" are, but they are Catholics. The others are just a few break away sects. You consider Catholics to not be Christians? Ex-communicated the master Ex-communicators?

Who are "Christians" then pray tell? Protestants? Orthodox? Evangelicals? Messianic Jews? All of the above, except Catholics?

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