Australian Politics Forum - Abrogation is a sticking point for non-Muslims

mozzaok

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Abrogation is a sticking point for non-Muslims
Oct 17^th, 2008 at 9:32am

Well the whole 'abrogation' bit, about the Koran, is a huge sticking point for non-muslims.

I will paraphrase some basic sentiments from the koran to try and illustrate my point.

If the koran says be just, and good to all men, somewhere at the start, and then later on says go and kill the unbelievers, this being said later, does that then abrogate the be good bit?

As an unbeliever, I would like to think the "be good to everybody" bit, would hold more importance, than any "lop off their heads" bit.

So if I follow the abrogation rule properly, all the koran should be set out chronologically, so you could just skip the first bit, because it is trumped by the last bit.

Is that a reasonable interpretation of abrogation of contradictory messages?

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abu_rashid

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Re: Abrogation is a sticking point for non-Muslims
Reply #1 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 9:49am

I moved this to a new thread mozza, because I couldn't for the life of me see how it related to that thread. Just appears like a randomly asked question/critique of Islam and the abrogation of texts. So I move it here.

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If the koran says be just, and good to all men, somewhere at the start

Is it actually at the start? Or is that where it's convenient for you to locate it for your argument? Since you've admitted you've never read the Qur'an, I doubt you'd have any idea what's at the start and what's at the end. Besides, the precedence of one text over another has got nothing to do with it's placement within the book.

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and then later on says go and kill the unbelievers, this being said later, does that then abrogate the be good bit?

The command to fight was not given in the earlier parts of the revelation, because the Muslims had no state by which to fight. What would be the point in commanding a people to raise an army if they don't even have a state.... This is just simple logic. Let me ask you something, when the British first set out for America, did they create the US Marines? Or did this occur AFTER the USA came into existence as a state?

And let us look even at the command to fight:

Permission is given to those who fight because they have been wronged, and God is indeed able to give them victory; those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said, "Our Lord is God"-for had it not been for God's repelling some men by means of others, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, in which the name of God is much mentioned, would certainly have been destroyed. Verily God helps those that help Him - lo! God is Strong, Almighty - those who, if they are given power in the land, establish worship and pay the poor-due and enjoin what is good and forbid iniquity. Quran 22:39-41

Notice firstly, the word is permission. Muslims were given permission to DEFEND themselves when they'd been wronged. As Lestat has pointed out to you, you've not read the Qur'an, and your critique of it is therefore no different to anyone who writes a review about a book he hasn't read. Would go onto Amazon and begin reviewing books you haven't read?

And another verse which is a command to fight:

Fight in the way of God those who fight against you, but do not transgress. God does not love the transgressor. Quran 2:190

Quite clearly shows that the Islamic command to fight is for defence. It is a permission to fight those who attack the Muslims, and there's a limitation placed on it, not to transgress.

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As an unbeliever, I would like to think the "be good to everybody" bit, would hold more importance, than any "lop off their heads" bit.

The two relate to completely different situations. They're not in competition with one another as you seem to propose and you're rooting for the "be good to everybody" part to be heeded more.

Quote:

So if I follow the abrogation rule properly, all the koran should be set out chronologically, so you could just skip the first bit, because it is trumped by the last bit.

Can you tell me what the 'abrogation rule' is? You obviously seem to have your own rule, that you think applies to the Islamic texts.

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mozzaok

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Re: Abrogation is a sticking point for non-Muslims
Reply #2 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 9:59am

No, I don't mind you moving it Abu.

I did consider it relevant to the previous thread in that I thought of how it relates to the verse saying muslims, no matter what, should always stick up for muslims, and if that abrogates any that says, punish wrongdoers.

This is where we see a problem with muslims not self regulating.

So the fact is that I was asking for your explanation of abrogation, as it relates to the koran, and how one would "rank" the verses, or messages in the koran.

It directly relates to the criticism which is so often levelled at non-muslims of criticising a book of rules they haven't read.

To us it seems that any rule should be able to understood, without needing to know every other rule in the book, and if rule B, only applies until you read rule C, then that makes it even more confusing.

I was hoping you could shed some light on how abrogation could be seen as a positive, because it just looks like an easy get out of jail card for not following a rule you don't like.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Abrogation is a sticking point for non-Muslims
Reply #3 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 10:50am

Quote:

I did consider it relevant to the previous thread in that I thought of how it relates to the verse saying muslims, no matter what, should always stick up for muslims, and if that abrogates any that says, punish wrongdoers.

I have no doubt you consider all of your critiques of Islam to be inter-related in some way or another, either way it wasn't actually related.

Btw, those texts quoted in the other thread were hadiths not verses of the Qur'an. They're obviously still part of the entire revelation of Islam though, so I'm not saying your comparison isn't valid.

It seems what you're talking about isn't even abrogation, but is in fact the concept of there being general and specific rules. The general rule is to support your brother and cover his faults, but in specific cases you must declare his sins, like in court as a witness, or if someone asks you about a prospective spouse, you must also honestly state your opinion of them.

Quote:

This is where we see a problem with muslims not self regulating.

It appears this whole self-regulating issue relates back to terrorism, am I correct?
As has been noted before, the Western democracies have by far been the greatest perpetrators of terrorism and torture and other atrocities against civilians in the world. And until you're willing to recognise this inidividually, you don't have a leg to stand on in this debate, and until the West recognises this collectively, there's not going to be much of a fruitful relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims on the global scale.

Why do you keep going around in circles and demanding Muslims self-regulate? You're committing most of the atrocities and have for so long refused to self-regulate it, and thats what led to the continued escalation of hostilities between Muslims and non-Muslims. If you believe in introspection, self criticism and self regulation, then recognise you have to start practising it. Just because you have some intellectuals making their own independant commentaries on the situation, doesn't mean you have self criticism and self regulation.

Quote:

So the fact is that I was asking for your explanation of abrogation, as it relates to the koran, and how one would "rank" the verses, or messages in the koran.

Abrogation is a pretty deep topic, which is generally not required knowledge for your average Muslim. Just like I'm sure you have no idea what kinds of evidences over-rule others in the Australian law system (unless you're a lawyer, in which case I apologise).

However I can assure you, things like "be kind to others" is not over-ruled by things like "Fight those who fight you". The two are not mutually exclusive and your attempt to claim they are is rather futile.

Dealing good naturedly to people is a requirement of Islam. However, to suggest that means a Palestinian cannot resist the occupation and destruction of his country is just ludicrous.

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To us it seems that any rule should be able to understood, without needing to know every other rule in the book, and if rule B, only applies until you read rule C, then that makes it even more confusing.

You'll find most legal systems cross reference between laws, that's not peculiar to the Islamic legal system.

Quote:

I was hoping you could shed some light on how abrogation could be seen as a positive, because it just looks like an easy get out of jail card for not following a rule you don't like.

Since you don't really seem to understand what abrogation actually is, I don't see how you can consider it a "get out of gaol free card".

If you'd like to read about what exactly it means, and the rules regarding it, this is a good primer, Al-Nasikh wa al-Mansukh (That which abrogates and that which is abrogated).

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Soren

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Re: Abrogation is a sticking point for non-Muslims
Reply #4 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 10:54am

abu rashid
Quote:

The command to fight was not given in the earlier parts of the revelation, because the Muslims had no state by which to fight. What would be the point in commanding a people to raise an army if they don't even have a state.... This is just simple logic. Let me ask you something, when the British first set out for America, did they create the US Marines? Or did this occur AFTER the USA came into existence as a state?

So the Koran IS a history book and not an eternal book, something that has been in heaven for ever.
A history book but not in chronological order.

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freediver

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Re: Abrogation is a sticking point for non-Muslims
Reply #5 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 11:10am

Quote:

It appears this whole self-regulating issue relates back to terrorism, am I correct?
As has been noted before, the Western democracies have by far been the greatest perpetrators of terrorism and torture and other atrocities against civilians in the world. And until you're willing to recognise this inidividually, you don't have a leg to stand on in this debate, and until the West recognises this collectively, there's not going to be much of a fruitful relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims on the global scale.

So because the west does bad things you cannot comment on the ability of Muslims to self regulate?

Also, could you explain how abrogation works?

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Soren

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Re: Abrogation is a sticking point for non-Muslims
Reply #6 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 11:12am

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 17^th, 2008 at 10:50am:

Quote:

As has been noted before, the Western democracies have by far been the greatest perpetrators of terrorism and torture and other atrocities against civilians in the world. And until you're willing to recognise this inidividually, you don't have a leg to stand on in this debate, and until the West recognises this collectively, there's not going to be much of a fruitful relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims on the global scale.

Why do you keep going around in circles and demanding Muslims self-regulate? You're committing most of the atrocities and have for so long refused to self-regulate it, and thats what led to the continued escalation of hostilities between Muslims and non-Muslims. If you believe in introspection, self criticism and self regulation, then recognise you have to start practising it. Just because you have some intellectuals making their own independant commentaries on the situation, doesn't mean you have self criticism and self regulation.

This is blatantly not true. Muslims are doing terrible things to other muslims on a vast scale. Western governments do not treat their people the way Mulsim countries do.The west simply knock a few recalcitrant muslim heads together occasionally, especially when provoked. The reason is always recalcitrance, never muslimness. To say otherwise is to cultivate the great cultural tradition of muslims: paranoia and resentment.
Western violence in the last 100 years was in wars and then mostly against other western powers.

Quote:

Abrogation is a pretty deep topic, which is generally not required knowledge for your average Muslim. ...

So they just do as the imam says. 'Don't think, do it our way.'

Quote:

However I can assure you, things like "be kind to others" is not over-ruled by things like "Fight those who fight you". The two are not mutually exclusive and your attempt to claim they are is rather futile.

As an average muslims, how on earth would you know that? Or are you an imam now as well?

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« Last Edit: Oct 17^th, 2008 at 11:33am by Soren »

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40888 Gender:	Re: Abrogation is a sticking point for non-Muslims Reply #7 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 11:30am From my understanding abrogation means that more recent laws may overwrite older ones. So, you can change your mind ??
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abu_rashid

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Re: Abrogation is a sticking point for non-Muslims
Reply #8 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 11:43am

soren,

Quote:

So the Koran IS a history book and not an eternal book, something that has been in heaven for ever.
A history book but not in chronological order.

History, past, present, future etc. are all constructs that we are beholden to because of our humanness, the Creator is not restrained by them.

Quote:

Western governments do not treat their people the way Mulsim countries do

Most notably those 'Muslim countries' the West funds and arms to do those things...

Quote:

The reason is always recalcitrance, never muslimness

The West support and fund dictators, and brutal ones at that, this has been admitted at least since the Eisenhower days. The fact that occasionally they turn against their pet dictators and replace them with another is not what I'm talking about, and I think you well know it.

Quote:

So they just do as the imam says. 'Don't think, do it our way.'

The Islamic sciences require a certain specialisation that not everyone is capable of devoting themselves to. Do you know all the laws (and their details) of Australia? If not, does it prevent you from living by those laws?

Quote:

As an average muslims, how on earth would you know that?

I read it from my Imam who I blindly follow

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abu_rashid

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Re: Abrogation is a sticking point for non-Muslims
Reply #9 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 11:45am

freediver,

Quote:

So because the west does bad things you cannot comment on the ability of Muslims to self regulate?

No, because the West does bad things, you should be focusing on that, before you ask others to clean their own backyard. Likewise for Muslims, we shouldn't be always criticising the decadence of the West, if we don't have our own backyard in order.

Quote:

Also, could you explain how abrogation works?

Did you not read my posts to mozzaok above? Re-read them, and follow any relevant links.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Abrogation is a sticking point for non-Muslims
Reply #10 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 11:51am

Quote:

From my understanding abrogation means that more recent laws may
overwrite older ones.

That is partially right spinrt. It's not laws specifically, it's verses (which may contain laws of course though). Some revelations were only revealed for a certain point in the work of Muhammad (pbuh) like for instance the prohibition of alcohol, which was prohibited in stages. At first the Muslims were commanded not to come to prayer drunk only. Now those verses are abrogated, and Muslims may not touch alcohol altogether.

However, all cases of abrogation are known, and they are few. It's not some 'get out of gaol free card' that mozzaok seems to think. It is only those verses specifically mentioned by Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions that were abrogated. So it's fixed, and has been for well over 1400 years, contrary to mozza's sentiment that we can just abrogate things willy nilly as we go along, this is not the case at all.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50108 At my desk.	Re: Abrogation is a sticking point for non-Muslims Reply #11 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 11:58am Likewise for Muslims, we shouldn't be always criticising the decadence of the West, if we don't have our own backyard in order. So why doesn't this happen?
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Soren

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Re: Abrogation is a sticking point for non-Muslims
Reply #12 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 12:09pm

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 17^th, 2008 at 11:51am:

[quote]So it's fixed, and has been for well over 1400 years, contrary to mozza's sentiment that we can just abrogate things willy nilly as we go along, this is not the case at all.

SO not fixed from eternity, then.

The eternal book responds to events - firrst don't get drunk, then if that does not work, do not drink at all. Why not say do not drink at all firts off, if it is an eternal book? Why bother with with giving an inferior ruling when the better one was in the book for ever already?

[2.106] Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?

If the book is a record of the dialogue between man and god, like the OT and NT, then it makes sense. If the Koran is an eternal book that exists in heaven unchanged, for eternity - then abrogation in a holy book is just nonsense.
This is not miraculous or mystical, it is simply confused and silly to insist on such a contradiction. I think this is a clue as to why the questioning of Mohamed and the Koran are just not on. Abrogation is the big word for the bits where Mohammed was making it up as he went along.

Same with the 'people of the book' and the 'kill them all unbelievers' bits. When the jews were courted, it was all sweetness and light. When they said no thank, go away, it was murderous anger.

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Abrogation is a sticking point for non-Muslims Reply #13 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 1:45pm Quote: So why doesn't this happen? I don't know, ask those who do it. I don't make a habit of criticising the decadence of the West. I might express disagreeance with it, but that's about it.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50108 At my desk.	Re: Abrogation is a sticking point for non-Muslims Reply #14 - Oct 17^th, 2008 at 1:52pm You want me to ask the Muslim extremists why the mainstream Muslim community is so impotent against them? Thanks, but I'd rather ask the mainstream Muslims.
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